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"Gassings"

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coolice (2 posts) Click to EMail coolice Click to send private message to coolice Click to check IP address of the poster
May-21-01, 06:54 AM (PST)
"Gassings"
I have heard many revisionists argue that the amount of HCN that was detected in Auschwitz makes gassings impossible because more hydrocyanic compounds were detected in the delousing chambers, than in the actual homicidal gas chambers.

Isn't it true that the walls of the homicidal chambers and delousing chambers varied in contact with HCN, and that the homicidal gas chambers were exposed to other elements and surroundings that dissolved the compounds? So was Leuchter not wrong in this aspect? Could it be said that gassings did take place? And since much of the HCN was dissolved it is obvious that less traces would be present? Also, I think the Cracow Forensic Institute also concluded this.

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  Table of Contents

  Subject     Author     Message Date     ID  
 RE: Gassings Karl May-21-01 1
   RE: Gassings Cat Scan May-21-01 2
       RE: Gassings Crayon May-21-01 3
           RE: Gassings Crayon May-25-01 5
               RE: Gassings Crayon Jun-10-01 6
       RE: Gassings Crayon May-21-01 4
           RE: Gassings Crayon Jun-10-01 7
               RE: Gassings hannover Jun-10-01 8
       RE: Gassings Cortagravatas Jun-25-01 9
           RE: Gassings Cat Scan Jun-25-01 10
           RE: Gassings Karl Jun-27-01 11

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Karl (54 posts) Click to EMail Karl Click to send private message to Karl Click to check IP address of the poster
May-21-01, 12:01 PM (PST)
1. "RE: Gassings"
LAST EDITED ON May-21-01 AT 05:40 PM (PST)

>I have heard many revisionists argue
>that the amount of HCN
>that was detected in Auschwitz
>makes gassings impossible because more
>hydrocyanic compounds were detected in
>the delousing chambers, than in
>the actual homicidal gas chambers.
>
>
>Isn't it true that the walls
>of the homicidal chambers and
>delousing chambers varied in contact
>with HCN, and that the
>homicidal gas chambers were exposed
>to other elements and surroundings
>that dissolved the compounds? So
>was Leuchter not wrong in
>this aspect? Could it be
>said that gassings did take
>place? And since much of
>the HCN was dissolved it
>is obvious that less traces
>would be present? Also, I
>think the Cracow Forensic Institute
>also concluded this.

First, I would direct the poster to the thread "Carlos Porter's site is back up" (currently on the board) which also contains an exchange on this topic.

Few people interested in the topic of Holocaust revisionism, either pro or con, are trained chemists. Laymen can make the effort to inform themselves on a specific scientific topic, but the tools for experimentation and re-creation of an observable phenomenon are usually not available to them.

The issue of the lack of substantial HCN traces in the alleged homicidal gas chambers is an important one, because if it is true that the HCN levels do not reach a bare minimum of what can be expected when X amount of Zyklon B is introduced over time into a brick and mortar structure, then the gas chamber stories themselves implode as a result.

Here are what I would consider to be common sense observations about the HCN issue. For starters, we can observe with our own eyes that in the delousing chambers, where Zyklon B was introduced over time, large portions of the walls and roof are stained blue with the Prussian Blue element in the Zyklon B. This phenomenon is not to be found in the alleged homicidal gas chambers. Secondly. we have the measurements of HCN residue as taken from the samples obtained by Fred Leuchter and Germar Rudolf. In the delousing chambers, measurements of cyanide reach up over 10,000 mg/kg while in the alleged homicidal gas chambers the measurements do not reach above 10 mg/kg. According to Germar Rudolf (who is a trained chemist) a measurement below 10 mg/kg is within the margin of error and so negligible as to be accounted for by an occasional delousing procedure, or even miniscule enough to be naturally generated. Traditionalists argue that the discrepancy is accounted for by the fact that the delousing chambers were used for a longer duration than the alleged homicidal gas chambers and/or weathering and washing has caused the lack of HCN residue. The alleged hosing down of the "gas chambers" appears to be an ad hoc explanation -- most of the "eyewitnesses" recount no such procedure. In any case, it is not proven that weathering or washing would have a much of an effect on a fusion as stable as that of the HCN with the iron in the brick. Regarding the explanation about the delousing chambers being used for longer periods than the alleged homicidal gas chambers (therefore no blue staining or significant measurements) , this may be true, but common sense would seem to indicate that, even if the measurements in the alleged homicidal gas chambers would not reach 10,000 mg/kg or above, they would be somewhere above negligible. In other words, somewhere between 10,000 mg/kg and negligible, especially when one considers that a humid atmosphere created by a room packed with people would be more conducive to the chemical reaction of HCN with the walls. Also, if the homicidal gas chambers were used as purported, on a given day many more canisters of the pesticide would have been thrown in than what would have been needed in the delousing chambers.

After completing his report, Fred Leuchter challenged his detractors to send a competent team of scientists and engineers to go to Auschwitz and either refute of confirm his findings. The Holocaust community has millions with which to lobby governments (to make Holocaust revisionism illegal), millions to give to Deborah Lipstadt to fight Irving's lawsuit, millions to put up museums and lobby for "Holocaust studies" in schools and universities, but no money to sponsor such a study. Only the self-interested Auschwitz Museum made an attempt by secretly hiring the not world-renowned Cracow Institute to do a study of just the HCN traces, to see if they could refute Leuchter. (Imagine that, the Auschwitz Museum did not have enough faith that testing would vindicate its version of events to announce the study ahead of time!) Instead Leuchter's results were largely confirmed; the "Crakow Institute" had to resort to a bogus measurement technique in order to make a case that the HCN traces confirm the orthodox story.

For more information on the HCN traces issue and on the Crakow Institute's methods see Germar Rudolf's work at:

http://vho.org/GB/Books/cq/leuchter.html
http://www.codoh.com/found/fndgcger.html

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Cat Scan (183 posts) Click to EMail Cat%20Scan Click to send private message to Cat%20Scan Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
May-21-01, 01:45 PM (PST)
2. "RE: Gassings"

The "hosing down the gas chamber" riff comes from the "memoirs" of Miklos Nyiszli, which has been exposed as a novel by Charles Provan in the latest JHR (Provan is a believer, too: how's that for an admission against interest!)

The "hosing down" doesn't appear in most other memoirs or testimonies or affidavits or whatever you want to call them: Henryk Tauber, for example, explicitly said the water taps in the "gas chamber" were removed.

But here again we run into a problem. If you have 2,000 dead people in this room, there's no way you can cover the entire space of the room, thus "washing off" the cyanides. Remember, the gas chamber was about 65 feet long and 23 feet wide with 2,000 people in it! No one's going to be running around in there with a hose until it is at least half empty.

Furthermore, the strangest part about it is that the one part of the "gas chamber" which is most intact is the part FARTHEST from the single door: this means that the part of the room that would be the last emptied, and the last "hosed down", and therefore the part of the room MOST LIKELY to show blue stains shows NONE.

Again, the idea of whitewash on the walls is not conclusive, unless it is a specially formulated sealant, of which, AFAIK, there is no evidence. This would slow the adsorption some but not as much as believers would like to think. Just putting a coat of whitewash on brick or concrete or mortar is not enough, if someone doesn't believe me, try it, and see how long it takes for enormous holidays to appear. They will appear almost instantaneously because whitewash or ordinary paint is not effective at sealing these surfaces.

Furthermore, all of these scenarios leave out the ceiling, which was not whitewashed (again, AFAIK), a natural point for condensation of moisture as well as HCN, and not very likely to be "hosed down." Also no blue stains. I wonder why.

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Crayon (140 posts) Click to EMail Crayon Click to send private message to Crayon Click to check IP address of the poster
May-21-01, 04:42 PM (PST)
3. "RE: Gassings"
>
>
>The "hosing down the gas chamber"
>riff comes from the "memoirs"
>of Miklos Nyiszli, which has
>been exposed as a novel
>by Charles Provan in the
>latest JHR (Provan is a
>believer, too: how's that for
>an admission against interest!)
>
>The "hosing down" doesn't appear in
>most other memoirs or testimonies
>or affidavits or whatever you
>want to call them: Henryk
>Tauber, for example, explicitly said
>the water taps in the
>"gas chamber" were removed.
>

I don't think this is correct.

See:

( http://www.mazal.org/archive/documents/Tauber/Tauber04.htm )


The gas chamber had no water supply of its own. <A Bauleitung inventory drawing indicates that three taps were in fact installed in the gas chamber. But they were destroyed in the first gassings and it was decided not to replace them.>

The water tap was in the corridor and a rubber hose was run from it to wash the floor of the gas chamber. At the end of 1943, the gas chamber was divided in two by a brick wall to make it possible to gas smaller transports. In the dividing wall there was a door identical to that between the corridor and the original gas chamber. Small transports were gassed in the chamber furthest from the entrance from the corridor.

Apparently, the parenthetical statement is by Pressac.

Something else caught my eye going over Tauber's testimony. Here where he talks about Krema II:

I would point out that at first the undressing room had neither benches nor clothes hooks and there were no showers in the gas chamber. These fittings were not installed until autumn 1943 in order to camouflage the undressing room and gas chamber as a bathing and disinfestation facility. The showers were fitted to small blocks of wood sealed into the concrete roof of the gas chamber. There were no pipes connected to these showers, from which no water ever flowed. (see pg.5)

Compare with an inventory of Krema III, upon its completion (as of June 1943):

http://www.holocaust-history.org/auschwitz/19430624-inventory/

It lists 14 showerheads in the Leichenkeller. One might think that Krema II would share this arrangement, but there is no corresponding entry here:

http://www.holocaust-history.org/auschwitz/19430331-inventory/

(unless my understanding of the inventory is mistaken)

An examination of Tauber's testimony convinces me that it must have been composed with documentary knowledge of the crematoria, literally to hand. A possible explanation for Tauber's mentioning the showers is as an attempt to explain why the original KremaII inventory lists no showerheads. But, in that case, why not just write in a number in the same way that one assumes that Drahtnetzeinschiebvorrichtung and Holzblenden were added? Also, Holzblenden means wooden covers and Tauber specifies that the covers were concrete...


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Crayon (140 posts) Click to EMail Crayon Click to send private message to Crayon Click to check IP address of the poster
May-25-01, 10:30 AM (PST)
5. "RE: Gassings"
>Also, Holzblenden means wooden covers and Tauber specifies
>that the covers were concrete...

According to Josef Erber, an Auschwitz Gestapo Officer, "Each of the ducts was covered over with an iron lid on the roof."

I guess this is what they mean by the convergence of evidence

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Crayon (140 posts) Click to EMail Crayon Click to send private message to Crayon Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-10-01, 04:44 AM (PST)
6. "RE: Gassings"
>>Also, Holzblenden means wooden covers and Tauber specifies
>>that the covers were concrete...
>
>According to Josef Erber, an Auschwitz
>Gestapo Officer, "Each of the
>ducts was covered over with
>an iron lid on the
>roof."
>

According to Olga Lengyel, "At the ceiling of the gas chamber was a square shaped opening; it had a grid work and was covered with glass."

We just need plastic now to complete the set.

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Crayon (140 posts) Click to EMail Crayon Click to send private message to Crayon Click to check IP address of the poster
May-21-01, 04:42 PM (PST)
4. "RE: Gassings"
>Again, the idea of whitewash on
>the walls is not conclusive,
>unless it is a specially
>formulated sealant, of which, AFAIK,
>there is no evidence.
>This would slow the adsorption
>some but not as much
>as believers would like to
>think. Just putting a
>coat of whitewash on brick
>or concrete or mortar is
>not enough, if someone doesn't
>believe me, try it, and
>see how long it takes
>for enormous holidays to appear.
>They will appear almost instantaneously
>because whitewash or ordinary paint
>is not effective at sealing
>these surfaces.
>

I have asked Provan if he saw evidence of plaster and paint
on the walls when he was at Krema II. He can't recall doing so, though he was only there for a day and was concentrating on finding those elusive holes.

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Crayon (140 posts) Click to EMail Crayon Click to send private message to Crayon Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-10-01, 04:44 AM (PST)
7. "RE: Gassings"
>I have asked Provan if he
>saw evidence of plaster and
>paint
>on the walls when he was
>at Krema II. He can't
>recall doing so, though he
>was only there for a
>day and was concentrating on
>finding those elusive holes.


Though it is correct that we do not know anything about the walls of the crematoria IV and V, the walls of the alleged 'gas chambers' of the crematorium II is still today partly intact and can be investigated: The walls of this room had a plaster of cement mortar, but no paint or other coating.

http://www.vho.org/GB/c/GR/RudolfOnVanPelt.html

There's an interesting selection of photos of the Krema II morgue/gas chamber here:

http://www.mazal.org/Auschwitz%20jpg/AuschwitzText%20Page.htm

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hannover (548 posts) Click to EMail hannover Click to send private message to hannover Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-10-01, 01:35 AM (PST)
8. "RE: Gassings"
Here are some rebuttals to Mazal, have a look. - vH

1. from Samuel Crowell:

http://www.fpp.co.uk/Auschwitz/docs/controversies/holes/MazalPhoto2.html

2. David Irving's overall index on the 'holes' alleged for Zyklon-B, with contributions a plenty:

http://www.fpp.co.uk/Auschwitz/docs/controversies/holes/index.html

3. from Brian Renk:

"From the 'Mazal Library' we have a photo which supposedly depicts what is labeled 'hole #2' (alleged Zyklon-B insertion opening at Auschwitz-Birkenau)
Note the caption at the bottom of the photo:
'note separated piece of concrete which originally formed part of hole #2 at lower left. The bent and cut rebar is clearly visible'. (!!!)
Is this a 'Freudian slip' on the part of Mazal? A cry for help? It could not have been removed by the Germans in late 1942 to early 1943 and left lying around on the roof until the end of the war. It was either blown out in the explosion of 1945 or it was removed after that time by persons unknown."
http://www.mazal.org/Auschwitz%20jpg/KII/KII-20093.htm

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Cortagravatas (13 posts) Click to EMail Cortagravatas Click to send private message to Cortagravatas Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-25-01, 01:14 PM (PST)
9. "RE: Gassings"
What did Leuchter and Rudolf actually do?

They compared the cyanide content of material from the delousing chambers that exhibits blue staining and material from homicidal chambers that does not exhibit this staining. They showed that the blue staining on the walls of the delousing chambers could very well be a cyanide compound.

What does this prove?

According to Leuchter and Rudolf, it proves that the walls of the delousing chambers were exposed to HCN whereas the walls of the homicidal gas chambers were not.

Is this correct?

It might be if

a) The exposure of the walls of the homicidal gas chambers to HCN would necessarily lead to the formation of blue stains under the reported conditions of the gassings; and

b) There were no significant traces of HCN on any parts of the walls of the homicidal gas chambers as opposed to parts of the walls of the delousing chambers under similar conditions.

As to a):

According to a study by Alich, Howarth, and Johnson cited by Rudolf in his report, “Prussian blue” forms only at very high concentrations of CN- ions, which means that too much humidity will “spoil” the reaction that leads to the formation of “Prussian blue”. There are reasons to assume that the concentration of such ions was much lower in the homicidal gas chambers than in the delousing chambers. First of all, the level of humidity in the former is likely to have been higher at the outset due to perspiration and exhalation from the tightly-packed victims. Second, due to the absorption of most of the HCN by the lungs of the fast-breathing victims the concentration of HCN liable to form “Prussian blue” in reaction with the existing moisture was much lower than in the delousing facilities. Third, the homicidal gas chambers were hosed down after each gassing, either before or after the bodies had been moved to the cremation room proper or to a morgue-like room adjacent to the gassing room that some of the crematoria seem to have had. This is confirmed by several witnesses: Henry Tauber, Filip Müller, Dr. Miklos Nyszili, Daniel Bennahmias, Szlama Dragon. The resulting dilution would have reduced the concentration of CN- ions far below the minimum necessary for the formation of “Prussian blue”.
Prussian blue formation is extremely sensitive to concentration and also to pH. Very small effects could tip the balance between whether Prussian blue forms or not. Alich et al. found a strong pH dependence to the reaction. The presence of human beings in the gas chambers could also help tip the balance. CO2 is an acid anhydride and there would have been a lot of it in the homicidal chambers. An acid anhydride is a substance that increases the acidity of a solution when it becomes solvated. Even atmospheric concentrations of CO2 (at 360 ppm today, about 330 ppm then) are sufficient to cause pure rain water to have a pH of 5.6. Human beings exhale about 4% CO2, so the pH could be quite a bit lower. For example at 2% CO2 the pH would be below 4.8. Low pH inhibits the reaction. Additionally, a lower pH will drive the HCN from solution, making the CN- more dilute at the outset.
The above shows that formation of “Prussian blue” in buildings exposed to HCN is by no means a must. Markiewicz et al.(see below) were not able to produce such pigments in experiments with HCN and building materials. Additionally, Rudolf did an experiment in which he exposed a brick to HCN and yet found no detectable level of cyanides within the sensitivity of his analytical method. These failures to produce Prussian blue are sufficient to demonstrate that its formation at detectable levels is not a necessary result of exposure to HCN.

Leuchter’s and Rudolf’s theories have therefore failed on the first count.


As to b):

The study performed by Jan Markiewicz, Wojciech Gubala and Jerzy Labedz of the Institute of Forensic Research, Cracow revealed the following traces of cyanide ions (CN-) at samples taken from various buildings of the former Auschwitz-Birkenau complex (values in µg/kg, respectively the lowest and highest concentrations found in the various samples of each building analyzed):

Ruins of homicidal gas chambers

Crematorium I : 28 – 292
Crematorium II: 8 – 640
Crematorium III: 8 – 68
Crematorium IV: 12 – 500
Crematorium V: 12 – 244

Facilities for the fumigation of prisoners’ clothes

Auschwitz Block nº 1 0 – 4
Auschwitz Block nº 3 0-900
Birkenau Bath House 0-840

Dwelling Accommodations, which Were Probably Fumigated with Zyklon B Only Once
(In Connection With Typhoid Epidemic in 1942)

Auschwitz Block 3 0 – 0
Auschwitz Block 8 0 – 0
Birkenau Block 3 0 – 0

The above clearly shows that, while no concentrations of cyanide ions were detected in the samples taken from buildings not used for either delousing or homicidal gassing, the concentrations detected in samples taken from homicidal gas chambers were not much lower than those detected in samples taken from delousing facilities. This in turn indicates that both the delousing chambers and the homicidal gas chambers were exposed to significant quantities of HCN over longer periods of time. In the delousing chambers, where HCN was not absorbed by human lungs and remained in contact with the walls for up to 24 hours at a time, the concentration of cyanide ions was necessarily higher. Another factor to be considered is that the undamaged delousing facilities were not as exposed to weather conditions as the ruins of the homicidal gas chambers.

The differences would have been higher if samples containing blue staining had been included, but such results would not have been telling.
Why? Because the “Prussian blue” formed in a building exposed to hydrogen cyanide will remain present at high concentration while other compounds of cyanide will gradually weather away. This means that it is no surprise if buildings with blue staining have more cyanides than those without. It also means that comparing a sample with blue stains to a sample without them is like comparing apples to oranges, because concentrations of HCN equal at the outset are likely to remain present much longer in the former than in the latter, which in turn means that conclusions drawn from concentrations of HCN residues in samples with “Prussian blue” on the one hand and samples without that staining on the other are worthless. Only by comparing samples without Prussian blue which were subject to similar conditions after their exposure to the substance it could be reliably determined if both had been exposed to significant quantities of HCN. This the researchers definitely established to have been the case at both the delousing and the homicidal gassing chambers and not to have been the case at other buildings of the Auschwitz-Birkenau complex.

Leuchter’s and Rudolf’s theories have thus also failed on the second count.


Conclusion: Contrary to the assertions of both Leuchter and Rudolf, the presence of blue staining on the walls of the delousing chambers and its absence on the ruins of the homicidal gas chambers does not speak against the latter having been exposed to significant quantities of HCN.


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Cat Scan (183 posts) Click to EMail Cat%20Scan Click to send private message to Cat%20Scan Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-25-01, 02:19 PM (PST)
10. "RE: Gassings"

The overall conclusion is unremarkable, but there are a number of fallacies involved.

#1 The argument about humidity is really an argument about moisture, and the only support for this argument is the one that says that the walls were washed off after every gassing.

Problems with this argument:

a) The claim that the walls were washed subsequent to gassings comes only from eyewitnesses.

b) NOT ONE SINGLE eyewitness claims that the walls, let alone the ceiling, were washed, ONE witness <Daniel Bennahmias> claims the walls were PAINTED after each gassing but does not say the ceiling was washed.

c) The claim of PAINTING is without support, but, even if true, that would simply "lock in" the HCN in the mortar and concrete.

d) The necessary (necessary to keep the story afloat, that is) "washing of the walls" (but not the ceiling)could not have taken place until the ca. 2000 victims had been removed from the chamber, this is a certainty, because the size of the gas chamber was only 2000 square feet. Sure, Nyiszli could claim that the _bodies_ and _floor_ were washed after gassing (but not the walls and not the ceiling) but he also claimed that the size of the gas chamber was three football fields in length, or some other ungodly size.

e) It is completely erroneous to allege that the bodies would have been taken out of the gas chamber prior to their immediate (or approximately immediate) burning.

i) First, this desperate last-minute allegation has no support, not even from eyewitnesses.

ii) Second, there were only three spaces the bodies could be moved to:

A) The LK III, adjacent to the gas chamber. This space, which opened on to the corpse elevator, was about 1/5th or 1/6th the size of the "gas chamber", it could, therefore, contain no more than that fraction of the gas chamber's bodies. Indeed, even less: because it was in this room that the bodies would need to have their hair cut off, their fillings removed, their bodily cavities searched for jewels, etc. (all of the excrements in the gas chamber would require similar very careful examination, but this is not attested to by eyewitnesses.) Finally, the space would need to be reasonably clear for the operation of the corpse elevator.

B) The LK II: This is the room where the bodies took off their clothes, etc. These clothes were then plundered and sorted and stored in Kanada. Obviously, the plundering and sorting of theses materials would take quite some time, so during this time frame there would be no ability to put the bodies there from the gas chamber. Of course, there are two reasons why this moving would NOT be done: it would simply dirty up the LK II making extra work for the crews, it would create extra work for the crews in any case, because they would have to move bloody and excrement covered bodies from LK I through LK III to LK II, and then turn around and take the same bodies from LK II to LK III to the corpse lift. This is not a believable chain of events, and is not attested to by any eyewitnesses.

C: The actual cremation room. This room contained 15 ovens (or muffles) tended by their crews, who introduced the bodies on slides. There would have been no reason to drag bodies -- and only a fraction could have been moved -- into this chamber and cluttering things up prior to burning.

THEREFORE THERE IS NO SUPPORT EITHER LOGICALLY OR FROM EYEWITNESSES THAT BODIES WERE MOVED FROM THE GAS CHAMBERS LONG PRIOR TO BURNING

It has been established, by science, that it would take approximately 2,000 hours to cremate 2,000 people. With 15 muffles, we can reduce this (2000/15) to 133.3 hours. If we assume further, using the outer boundary established by British cremationists, we could reduce this time of one hour further, either by one-third (40 minutes) or one-half (30 minutes.) Or, we can take the document which claims that bodies could be cremated to ash in 15 minutes. It doesn't really matter. In all four cases, we get hour values in excess of one day: 133, 89, 67, and 33 hours respectively. DURING THIS TIME THE WALLS OF THE GAS CHAMBERS COULD NOT BE WASHED.

Given the diffusion characteristics of -CN in concrete, the highly alkaline nature of the concrete mortar and concrete used in the gas chambers, the greater specific inner surface area, and the length of time during which the adsorbed -CN in aqueous solution had to penetrate and form early ferric cyanide complexes, it is in fact MORE LIKELY that there would have been blue stains in the gas chambers than the delousing chambers.

And yet there are none.

#2 The argument about fast-breathing victims is a canard, because the Zyklon would be emitting HCN vapor throughout the gassing process (20 or 30 minutes), and, as each prisoner was effected in turn, they would immediately STOP BREATHING. Since there is no real disagreement that comparable amounts of Zyklon were used for both gassing and delousing, it follows that considerable amounts of HCN would have had an opportunity to form aqueous solutions along the walls and ceiling. In fact, the moisture of the gas chamber alone would have increased the likelihood of HCN adsorption by perhaps as much as EIGHT TIMES.

#3 While it is true that the formation of prussian blue cannot be predicted with certainty, it is also true that the delousing chambers in every camp that are still standing exhibit such permeation of blues. The Polish investigators deliberately excluded such blues from their results.

#4 The Poles also excluded -- in their 1994 study -- the results of their 1990 study, which returned null values for several samples from the "gas chambers." They did not even reference these null values in their later report. This is, simply speaking, scientific fraud.

#5 The Poles claimed that the "controls" were only gassed once. In fact, there is no evidence as to whether these spaces were gassed once, twice, or not at all. The null values from these readings correspond anyway to the null values for most of the gas chamber samples from 1990.

#6 The values below 10 mg/kg are highly variable as Rudolf has established. This simply means that levels below 10 mg/kg are not reliable indicators of anything. For example, Rudolf tested a brick from a Bavarian farmhouse, which returned a cyanide value of 8 mg/kg. This may mean that the farmhouse was fumigated once, or twice, or possible not at all. But such a result -- identical to the "gas chamber" results -- does not support the idea that half a million people were gassed in this farmhouse.

SUM It is true that the formation of prussian blue cannot be predicted with certainty. It is also true that the gas chamber exhibit no such staining. The tiny -CN values measured by the Polish scientists suggest that the "gas chambers" _may_ have been exposed to cyanides, perhaps once or twice. But it is unlikely they could have been exposed to it on the level argued, because such a massive concentration of cyanides for over 24 hours a day for each gassing would, with the highest probability, resulted in the formation of prussian blues 50 years later. There are no such stains.

IN SHORT, we have a situation in which there are barely detectable traces of cyanides in the "gas chambers." The question is whether these minute traces support either the allegation that 500,000 people were gassed in K II, or whether it supports the counter-allegation that they were not. The balance of probabilities supports the latter interpretation.

>
>Conclusion: Contrary to the assertions of
>both Leuchter and Rudolf, the
>presence of blue staining on
>the walls of the delousing
>chambers and its absence on
>the ruins of the homicidal
>gas chambers does not speak
>against the latter having been
>exposed to significant quantities of
>HCN.


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Karl (54 posts) Click to EMail Karl Click to send private message to Karl Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-27-01, 11:43 AM (PST)
11. "RE: Gassings"
>Conclusion: Contrary to the assertions of
>both Leuchter and Rudolf, the
>presence of blue staining on
>the walls of the delousing
>chambers and its absence on
>the ruins of the homicidal
>gas chambers does not speak
>against the latter having been
>exposed to significant quantities of
>HCN.


1. On what grounds can it be stated that the Cracow group found "significant quantities" of HCN in the alleged gas chambers. From what I could tell, no judgement was made as to the amount of cyanide that should have been there considering the gassings purported. The conclusion reached was that both chambers had traces of the unstable HCN in similar amounts -- not that the amount discovered would cover the purported events. Absent the Prussian Blue element, the remaining unstable HCN elements in the delousing and alleged homicidal gas chambers measured close to the same, but still minuscule. What evidence exists that the amounts found would correspond with the purported use? Having found minuscule cyanide traces in both delousing and "homicidal" chambers, while reporting their control samples had none, the Cracow group then jumps to the conclusion that this finding represents a validation of the orthodox history. The Cracow group ignored the Prussian Blue element because the descrepancies revealed by it do not conform with the standard history.

2. The poster's speculation that "most of the HCN" would be absorbed "by the lungs of the fast-breathing victims" is, IMO, unfounded -- the gas is said to kill almost instantaneously and only a very few breaths could be taken before a human would succumb. Also, not to forget, it would take some time for the pellets to vaporize throughout the chamber, a phenomenon which certain "eyewitnesses" apparently failed to factor into their accounts, which have the alleged victims all deceased within 5-7 minutes.

3. It can be noted that the obscure Cracow Institute was hired by the self-interested Auschwitz Museum to do tests which it hoped would refute Leuchter and Rudolf. However, the museum was not confident of the results and did not want to publicize a result in contradiction to the orthodox story, therefore the study was not announced ahead of time. Combine this with the fact that the Cracow group found it necessary to make political pronouncements in a scientific study, and one can understand why Germar Rudolf is suspicious that the Cracow group adopted a questionable measurement technique in order to arrive at a bogus conclusion.

Below is an excerpt of correspondence between Germar Rudolf and the Cracow Institute in which Rudolf calls for independent testing of the Cracow group's samples and also takes them to task for involving politics with science. Crakow replies that the cyanide issue has not been completely determined, and that their work would continue -- but that is apparently the last we have heard from them:

From a letter from Germar Rudolf to Cracow Institue 25.1.95
....
Unfortunately the three Polish authors do not mention which expressions in my article displeased them. Probably this relates to the suspicion of scientific deception. If the three Polish authors should be ready to subject their old samples or newly-taken samples to analysis for total cyanide content by
the DIN procedure and to present the results I will gladly retract this suspicion. The explanations they have offered for their analytic method so far are not satisfactory.

If we are to discuss disagreeable expressions I would like to raise a point that I was ready to let pass, but due to the reproaches of the Polish researchers should now be addressed:

In their article the three Polish authors impute to the Revisionists the desire to white-wash the Hitler system. I have the following comments:

- Scientists should interest themselves with the scientific arguments of other scientists and not their possible intentions. That applies even between established science and Revisionism.

- Regardless of whatever intentions whatever Revisionist may have: The suggestion of presumed intentions does not weaken one single technical argument of Revisionists and therefore has
Unfortunately the three Polish authors do not mention which expressions in my article displeased them. Probably this relates to the suspicion of scientific deception. If the three Polish authors should be ready to subject their old samples or newly-taken samples to analysis for total cyanide content by
the DIN procedure and to present the results I will gladly retract this suspicion. The explanations they have offered for their analytic method so far are not satisfactory.

If we are to discuss disagreeable expressions I would like to raise a point that I was ready to let pass, but due to the reproaches of the Polish researchers should now be addressed:

In their article the three Polish authors impute to the Revisionists the desire to white-wash the Hitler system. I have the following comments:

- Scientists should interest themselves with the scientific arguments of other scientists and not their
possible intentions. That applies even between established science and Revisionism.

- Regardless of whatever intentions whatever Revisionist may have: The suggestion of presumed intentions does not weaken one single technical argument of Revisionists and therefore has no place in a technical publication.

- Whatever the outcome of the controversy over Revisionism may be, the scientist should interest himself only with the truth and not with the effect that Adolf Hitler or anybody else may have on the political-moral purity of the West.

- Whoever imputes a political intention in the research of his scientific counterpart, which he does not bother to prove, suggests to the reader that this scientific counterpart wants merely to produce wished-for results and should not be taken seriously as a scientist. In this way we leave the area of
scientific argumentation and enter the area of political agitation.

- The assertion that all Revisionists want to white-wash the Hitler regime fails. Neither the founder of Revisionism, Paul Rassinier, a former member of the French resistance who was held by the
National Socialists in several concentration camps, nor Dr. Robert Faurisson, who was once involved in the political left, nor Serge Thion nor the american Jew David Cole, to mention only a
few, want to white-wash the Hitler regime. The same applies to me.

- He who stays in a glass house should not throw stones.

Jan Sehn Institute Cracow

Fax to G. Rudolf, 28.3.95, 12:45 hours

Honored Sir!

In consideration of the foregoing correspondence, we would like to state that we have been and are completely aware that in our researches on the structures of the former Konzentrationslager
Auschwitz-Birkenau the cyanide content was not completely determined. Especially we have excluded the disputed Prussian blue (chemical formulas are more complicated). However the
presence of other cyanide compounds than Prussian blue which we have found in structures in which - it is claimed - Zyklon B was used shows clearly that these structures had been in contact with these compounds. That is the point of our work.

The work we have begun will be continued.

We found the expressions on the Revisionists in publications that we cited (Amoklauf ... J. C. Pressac). They were necessary for the Polish reader because this topic is completely unknown
among us. Without this information the purpose of our research would not be understood.

With friendly greetings


To Messrs. Markiewicz, Gubala and Labedz

G. Rudolf, 7.4.1995

First, many thanks for your brief answer of 28.3 to my last letter. Let me comment on the points discussed:

You write that the expressions that you have taken from Exterminationist publications on the Revisionists were necessary to enable the Polish reader to understand the purpose of your work. According to this, the purpose of your research is to combat the presumed tendency of Revisionists to white-wash the Hitler system. You also want to prevent that the onus on the Hitler system might be mitigated by certain research results. This is not a scientific intention, but solely a political one. I
would like to remind you that you as a researcher have an interest in finding the best-possible approach to the truth and not in blaming or lifting the blame from some long-ago disappeared
system. In our time it has become a ritual to declaim the nastiness and evil of the Hitler regime over and over and to damn up one side and down the other anything that would make it less so. That does not alter the fact that this is a seriously unscientific mode of operation. If science determines that
the Hitler regime is not culpable in a particular point, one should have to accept it even though one might disapprove on political grounds.

I am particularly amazed that you would pretend that the blanket political suspicions and vilifications to which the Exterminationists expose Revisionists are "information" necessary for the Polish reader. When you write a scientific article on a theme you should be capable of distinguishing between scientific arguments and political demagogy. The latter does not belong in a scientific piece.

If you should wish to enlighten the uninformed Polish reader on this topic it would have been better, for example, to discuss the following points for him, so that he could understand the problem of
detection of cyanide in masonry:

1. From the '20's of this century Zyklon B was the most often used insecticide against all kinds of pests (lice, bedbugs, corn beetles, wood-borers).

2. In the 2nd World War Germany and her allies consumed many thousands of tons of Zyklon B in order to combat these pests in military as well as civilian facilities (pest control in barracks, food storage areas, ships, trains, prisoner-of-war camps, work camps and concentration camps).

3. In KZ Auschwitz devastating typhus plagues occurred often. This disease is carried by the louse. To combat the louse the prisoners' barracks and all other habitable places in Auschwitz as well as all prisoner's belongings including their clothing were repeatedly deloused with Zyklon B.

4. The Auschwitz Lager, the only one in which it is claimed that there was mass killing with Zyklon B, did not receive markedly more Zyklon B relative to its size than other camps. The established research takes that to mean that even here 95% to 98% of all Zyklon B deliveries were used for
harmless delousing purposes.

5. In Auschwitz the SS spent many million Reichsmarks (many millions of DM by today's values) to erect up-to-date facilities for pest-control and prevention of epidemics - unfortunately first in 1943, so that the previously devastating typhus plagues claimed tens of thousands of victims.

This basic knowledge is absolutely necessary for the reader in order that he can correctly evaluate the significance of Zyklon B. Today all we hear about this agent is that in Auschwitz it was
exclusively or principally used for killing people. Naturally, viewed from this distorted angle the detection of small traces of cyanide in the morgue-cellar 1st of crematorium 2nd in
Auschwitz-Birkenau, the supposed gas-chamber - which I have found not to be reproducible -, is taken as evidence that people were killed there.

It is a fact that even with the Exterminationist premise of a 98% use of Zyklon B for pest control there is a probability of just 98% that the traces of cyanide that we find today come from simple pest control operations - apart from any quantitative considerations that I will not review here. The use of
Zyklon B in Auschwitz does not in itself signify killing of people, although you have portrayed it that way in your article....

Link to Germar Rudolf on Cracow methodology:
http://vho.org/GB/Books/cq/leuchter.html


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