'Holocaust Or Holohoax: Twenty-One Amazing Facts'

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Hannover
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'Holocaust Or Holohoax: Twenty-One Amazing Facts'

Postby Hannover » 1 week 5 days ago (Sun Mar 12, 2017 10:00 pm)

I recently received this direct and simply stated listing of important 'holocaust' debunking facts.
Check it out, let The Forum know what you think.

'Holocaust Or Holohoax: Twenty-One Amazing Facts'
https://holohoax.wordpress.com/2013/10/ ... ing-facts/

- Hannover

Imagine in a real / legit court of law where someone claims that millions of people were murdered and dumped into known mass graves, but then could not produce the mass graves.


If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Re: 'Holocaust Or Holohoax: Twenty-One Amazing Facts'

Postby Hektor » 1 week 5 days ago (Mon Mar 13, 2017 7:21 am)

There is a problem:

The Red Cross records seem to suggest that there were no gas chambers, and a total of 271,301 died during World War Two in these camps, mostly from typhus.


The source of
Image
isn't the Red Cross, but "Sonderstandesamt Arolsen".

Arolsen's source is the official registration of deceased at the places were concentration camps were.

Bear in mind that the Holocaustian counterargument is that prisoners that weren't registered at the camps weren't entered in those records, if they died. It's of course a cop-out

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Re: 'Holocaust Or Holohoax: Twenty-One Amazing Facts'

Postby borjastick » 1 week 5 days ago (Mon Mar 13, 2017 1:06 pm)

Hektor wrote:There is a problem:

The Red Cross records seem to suggest that there were no gas chambers, and a total of 271,301 died during World War Two in these camps, mostly from typhus.


The source of
Image
isn't the Red Cross, but "Sonderstandesamt Arolsen".

Arolsen's source is the official registration of deceased at the places were concentration camps were.

Bear in mind that the Holocaustian counterargument is that prisoners that weren't registered at the camps weren't entered in those records, if they died. It's of course a cop-out


Yeah but this one is...
holocaustredcross.jpg
holocaustredcross.jpg (87.29 KiB) Viewed 403 times


Of course there are discrepancies in these figures, how could there ever be a precise and totally accurate figure. I think that's way too much to ask for but the differences are quite small. I could of course say that this figure or that one isn't correct but that's not the point. The point is that whichever way you cut it the figures recorded for camp deaths are very small. Aha some will say, what about the ghettos. My view on the ghettos is simple. It starts and finishes with some deaths but mostly deportations east and to and within the camp system, thus deaths would be in these official figures.

Aha but what about Treblinka, mass shootings etc someone else would shout. Yeah but no but, there's little or no proof and whatever it was doesn't add much to the totals we see above. So once again I state that the death toll for jews is less than 5% of the 6m claimed and that's being gloomy.

And that my friends is why, though I applaud Jerzy's efforts, I think we have done so much in recent years. Proof positive of this can be found on internet sites and films with the comments giving so much away and of course the recent Amazon book titles removal, which in itself proves they know they are losing the holocaust argument.
'Of the four million Jews under Nazi control in WW2, six million died and alas only five million survived.'

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Re: 'Holocaust Or Holohoax: Twenty-One Amazing Facts'

Postby Hektor » 1 week 5 days ago (Mon Mar 13, 2017 3:15 pm)

borjastick wrote:....

Yeah but this one is...
holocaustredcross.jpg

Still coming from the Sonderstandesamt Arolsen (see below on document)
borjastick wrote:....
Of course there are discrepancies in these figures, how could there ever be a precise and totally accurate figure. I think that's way too much to ask for but the differences are quite small. I could of course say that this figure or that one isn't correct but that's not the point. The point is that whichever way you cut it the figures recorded for camp deaths are very small. Aha some will say, what about the ghettos. My view on the ghettos is simple. It starts and finishes with some deaths but mostly deportations east and to and within the camp system, thus deaths would be in these official figures.
Those aren't exactly "small figures", but they also have some real history attached to it including plausibe causes of death. There is also a natural cause of death of perhaps 2% per year occurring, which would be included in those figures as well.
borjastick wrote:....
Aha but what about Treblinka, mass shootings etc someone else would shout. Yeah but no but, there's little or no proof and whatever it was doesn't add much to the totals we see above. So once again I state that the death toll for jews is less than 5% of the 6m claimed and that's being gloomy.
It may be more, but it's not substantially more.
borjastick wrote:....
And that my friends is why, though I applaud Jerzy's efforts, I think we have done so much in recent years. Proof positive of this can be found on internet sites and films with the comments giving so much away and of course the recent Amazon book titles removal, which in itself proves they know they are losing the holocaust argument.

I agree, they're losing the grip for a couple of reason. One is "Holocaust Fatigue" since they've ridden that horse to exhaustion and people get annoyed by the subject. The other one is that more and more people get aware of the nonsense they're actually told. And that makes them skeptical. The Holocaust fatigue may however actually be an obstacle to Revisionism, since only that are still interested are open to obtaining new information on the subject.

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Re: 'Holocaust Or Holohoax: Twenty-One Amazing Facts'

Postby ginger » 1 week 5 days ago (Mon Mar 13, 2017 3:54 pm)

Very good list - I would like to add to item 11. the operation of the crematoria.

From Carlo Mattogno, the ovens at Auschwitz operated for 12 hours a day, not 24/7. If they were continuously running, they would stop working - they needed daily maintenance and after a number of cremations needed to be re bricked or overhauled. There is no record of oven overhauls at Auschwitz. Hannover, in a post long ago, cited an association of cremation workers as suggesting that maybe 500 could have been cremated at Auschwitz each day. Ivan LeGace, cremation expert for Ernst Zundel, estimated that around 185 would be cremated at Auschwitz each day. Also testimony, like that from Henryk Tauber, saying that five bodies could be crammed into 1 oven (or muffle) must be false - this abuse of the ovens would cause them to stop working or work poorly.

I have respect for Red Cross numbers and of course they should get more press in connection to the Holocaust.

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Re: 'Holocaust Or Holohoax: Twenty-One Amazing Facts'

Postby flimflam » 1 week 3 days ago (Wed Mar 15, 2017 8:27 am)

Excellent list. here is a shorter one ...

Six million killed in gas chambers disguised as shower rooms in the best documented genocide in history, and yet there are no bodies (1), no gas chambers , i.e. murder weapon, (2), and no documents (3).

(1) The prisoners that died in camps were cremated, those in camps without crematoriums we buried, and later dug up and burned in the open. As a result there are no bodies. The photos you have seen of holocaust victims were taken after the war of prisoners who had died of typhus in the last months of the war, 35,000 at Belsen, 10,000 dying after liberation. See a long suppressed British documentary ..
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/film/ ... the-camps/

(2) While two of the death camps were captured intact, there are no gas chambers to be found. A gas chamber was 'reconstructed' by the Soviets after the war at Auschwitz and is shown to visitors, it has an unsealed wooden office door with a large plate glass window, i.e. the Soviets did a laughable job.
http://www.holohoax101.org/Auschwitz.gif

(3) The Nazis were meticulous record keepers, and wrote Dr. signed death certificates for each prisoner that died at Auschwitz, and made monthly summaries. The Soviets captured the records and promptly hid them for 50 years, revealing them after glasnost. See a description here ...
http://auschwitz.org/en/museum/about-th ... able-data/
There is no evidence of the holocaust in the Auschwitz records. The records captured by the Brits/US are still held in secret at Bad Arolsen.

From holohoax101.org

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Re: 'Holocaust Or Holohoax: Twenty-One Amazing Facts'

Postby borjastick » 1 week 3 days ago (Wed Mar 15, 2017 12:09 pm)

An even shorter explanation which really hits the spot is this one that came up here some years ago -

The holocaust is the murder of six million jews that didn't exist in gas chambers that cannot be shown
'Of the four million Jews under Nazi control in WW2, six million died and alas only five million survived.'

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Re: 'Holocaust Or Holohoax: Twenty-One Amazing Facts'

Postby permanent_denial » 1 week 3 days ago (Wed Mar 15, 2017 12:44 pm)

20. The Census of Jews Worldwide Figures

I don't think this one should be used as validation of anything. The numbers cited are estimates based on extrapolations performed that probably didn't account for Jewish losses in WW2, or if they did, were performed under the assumption that no extermination program existed or that the now officially accepted story was incorrect. The World Almanac contacted Jewish authorities and had their figures updated in 1949, again based on population extrapolation, except this time by groups invested in supporting the currently "officially" accepted theory of 6 million.

Since neither figure is arrived at based on anything more than estimation and assumption, neither should be used, but introducing this rightly contested statistic, and in fact subsequently revised statistic, into the debate allows for a correct refutation of its lack of credibility, or of the credibility of the revision made to it by the same source, World Almanac. I notice that the figures stated switch back and forth between several sources, as well. We should all recognize that cherry-picking data to support one hypothesis or the other is a strategy prone to failure in the long run.

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Re: 'Holocaust Or Holohoax: Twenty-One Amazing Facts'

Postby Hannover » 1 week 3 days ago (Wed Mar 15, 2017 2:17 pm)

permanent_denial wrote:20. The Census of Jews Worldwide Figures

I don't think this one should be used as validation of anything. The numbers cited are estimates based on extrapolations performed that probably didn't account for Jewish losses in WW2, or if they did, were performed under the assumption that no extermination program existed or that the now officially accepted story was incorrect. The World Almanac contacted Jewish authorities and had their figures updated in 1949, again based on population extrapolation, except this time by groups invested in supporting the currently "officially" accepted theory of 6 million.

Since neither figure is arrived at based on anything more than estimation and assumption, neither should be used, but introducing this rightly contested statistic, and in fact subsequently revised statistic, into the debate allows for a correct refutation of its lack of credibility, or of the credibility of the revision made to it by the same source, World Almanac. I notice that the figures stated switch back and forth between several sources, as well. We should all recognize that cherry-picking data to support one hypothesis or the other is a strategy prone to failure in the long run.

How do you know all this?

Thanks and welcome.

- Hannover

Why do so many people want 6M Jews to be dead? Revisionists don't.
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Re: 'Holocaust Or Holohoax: Twenty-One Amazing Facts'

Postby Dresden » 1 week 3 days ago (Wed Mar 15, 2017 2:49 pm)

Jewish Prof. Roger Domergue said:

"The only thing we know about Hitler is that he killed six million Jews who never existed, in gas chambers that nobody ever saw"
"I am willing to go to prison for the sake of the truth and the German nation. ... You are determined to destroy my convictions by imprisoning me, but it is beyond your power to do so." - Sylvia Stolz

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Re: 'Holocaust Or Holohoax: Twenty-One Amazing Facts'

Postby permanent_denial » 1 week 3 days ago (Wed Mar 15, 2017 3:11 pm)

Hannover wrote:How do you know all this?

Thanks and welcome.


Thanks, glad to post here.

Well, for one thing the hodgepodge of various cited sources has its obvious weaknesses, so I'll concentrate on just the World Almanac for the dates surrounding the time before, during, and after the war.

The post states the following for that data:

World Almanac, 1933, pg. 419 — 15,316,359, [“The estimate for Jews in the above table is for 1933, and is by the American Jewish Committee”
World Almanac, 1936, pg. 748 — world jewish population = 15,753,633
World Almanac, 1938, pg. 510 — world jewish population = 15,748,091, with 240,000 in Germany
American Jewish Committee Bureau of the Synagogue Council, 1939 — 15,600,000
World Almanac, 1940, pg. 129: World Jewish Population — 15,319,359
World Almanac, 1941, pg. 510: World Jewish Population — 15,748,091
World Almanac, 1942, pg. 849 — 15,192,089, “Jews include Jews by race not necessarily by religion”
World Almanac USA, 1947, pg. 748: World Jewish Population — 15,690,000
World Almanac, 1949, pg. 289: World Jewish Population — 15,713,638

We can see up until 1939, sources for world Jewish population are varied but definitively cited. Note first of all, however, that none of these figures claim to be according to any census. After 1939 and until 1947, no source is cited, meaning there is no source to cite, and these numbers are most likely arrived at by estimations. One can only come to the conclusion, based on the values, that whoever decided upon these estimates used a population model that did NOT account for a systematic extermination, alleged to have been occurring in Germany. There would have indeed been no reasonable method for ascertaining accurate populations of European Jews during this time, with their frequent relocation and internment underway, whether or not one considers the extermination tale to be a factor.

The figure posted for 1949 also has this same quality of not listing a source, but the following scanned image of a page from that Almanac says otherwise, and indeed lists a much different number. Note that the several sources cited (more than one source, in other words, a consensus of estimates rather than authoritative population data) as the basis for the number are all Jewish American authorities, which all would have had a vested interest in accounting for population losses as described by the "official" extermination narrative of 6 million, which is indeed nearly the difference we see in the total population between 1939 and 1947.

Image

It follows that the data posted in the aforementioned link is not authoritative, even by measure of the sources it lists as the foundation for the claimed numbers. It appears that no definitive census data from that era is available, and as Jews were routinely transported across national borders, would have been naturally difficult to obtain in any case.

I don't doubt the numbers presented as something that very probably represents a somewhat accurate depiction of Jewish world population, but I don't think it provides for a very strong argument against the validity of the 6 million claim, as even the sources cited have apparently revised or arrived at figures different than those listed.

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Re: 'Holocaust Or Holohoax: Twenty-One Amazing Facts'

Postby Hannover » 1 week 3 days ago (Wed Mar 15, 2017 4:32 pm)

pd:
I don't think it provides for a very strong argument against the validity of the 6 million claim, as even the sources cited have apparently revised or arrived at figures different than those listed.

Then where is there a valid source for the 6M claim?

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Re: 'Holocaust Or Holohoax: Twenty-One Amazing Facts'

Postby permanent_denial » 1 week 2 days ago (Wed Mar 15, 2017 4:54 pm)

Hannover wrote:pd:
I don't think it provides for a very strong argument against the validity of the 6 million claim, as even the sources cited have apparently revised or arrived at figures different than those listed.

Then where is there a valid source for the 6M claim?

- Hannover


There is not one that I know of, which is able to be verified in any meaningful way. That doesn't imply that the listed source is a valid refutation of the claim though, simply because it is in opposition to it. The validity of either would have to be proven in its own right, and in my opinion the case for both is weak in the absence of definitive census data, which does not exist to my knowledge.

Note that I'm not defending the 6 million figure, but simply pointing out what I believe is a rather flimsy refutation of it.

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Re: 'Holocaust Or Holohoax: Twenty-One Amazing Facts'

Postby Hannover » 1 week 2 days ago (Wed Mar 15, 2017 7:38 pm)

pd:
Thank you.
Are you familiar with the work of Benz & Sanning regarding this 'how many Jews' topic?

- Hannover

it is necessary to recognize that the lack of traces involves the inability to directly establish the reality of the existence of homicidal gas chambers.”
- French exterminationist historian Jacques Baynac, Le Nouveau Quotidien (Lausanne, Switzerland), Sept. 3, 1996, p. 14.
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Re: 'Holocaust Or Holohoax: Twenty-One Amazing Facts'

Postby permanent_denial » 1 week 2 days ago (Wed Mar 15, 2017 8:31 pm)

Hannover wrote:pd:
Thank you.
Are you familiar with the work of Benz & Sanning regarding this 'how many Jews' topic?

- Hannover


I have read their conclusions but not in detail how each arrived at their figures. Might you have a good reference for further reading?


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