Deborah Lipstadt: Behind the lies of Holocaust denial

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Deborah Lipstadt: Behind the lies of Holocaust denial

Postby Horhug » 3 months 2 days ago (Wed May 17, 2017 10:21 am)

Deborah Lipstadt: Behind the lies of Holocaust denial

She has a discussion up on TED.com atm here, where all can regsiter and join in the debate.

https://www.ted.com/talks/deborah_lipst ... anguage=en

It is not a very good discussion, just some light gloating about her "victory" over that non-entity in Holocaust Revisionism, David Irving,

Completely devoid of facts, just the usual ad homs and appeal to ridicule.


Check out her phenomenal reading list here :

https://www.ted.com/talks/deborah_lipst ... mendations

Deborah Lipstadt recommends

Check out these extra resources, curated by Deborah Lipstadt.

*

Holocaust Denial on Trial

This Emory-based website contains the trial documents from David Irving v. Penguin UK and Deborah Lipstadt (1996). These include the complete transcripts of the trial, documents submitted by the defense, the 350-page judgment and the extensive expert reports by Richard Evans, Robert Jan van Pelt, Christopher Browning, Hajo Funke and Peter Longerich. In addition, the site contains extensive analysis and refutation of deniers claims about the Holocaust.

*

Assassins of Memory

Pierre Vidal-Naquet
Columbia University Press, 1992

A collection of essays written in response to those who deny the Holocaust. It pays particular attention to the situation in France in the 1980s but also severely criticizes the American linguist Noam Chomsky, who wrote an introduction to a book by a leading denier of the Holocaust in the name of free speech.

*

Denial

Deborah Lipstadt
Ecco/Harper Collins, 2016

Originally published as History on Trial: My Day in Court with a Holocaust Denier (2006), Denial is Deborah Lipstadt's memoir of her libel trial when she was sued by David Irving for calling him a Holocaust denier.

*

Lying About Hitler: History, Holocaust, and the David Irving Trial

Richard Evans
Basic Books, 2001

This is an expanded version of the report Richard Evans prepared for the court in Irving v. Penguin UK and Deborah Lipstadt. It also contains an analysis of the post-trial press coverage.

*

Denying History: Who Says the Holocaust Never Happened and Why Do They Say it?

Michael Shermer and Alex Grobman
University of California Press, 2002

A thorough and compelling analysis and refutation of some of the claims made by deniers.

*

The transcript of her "talk" is here :

https://www.ted.com/talks/deborah_lipst ... anguage=en

0:12
I come to you today to speak of liars, lawsuits and laughter. The first time I heard about Holocaust denial, I laughed. Holocaust denial? The Holocaust which has the dubious distinction of being the best-documented genocide in the world? Who could believe it didn't happen?

0:39
Think about it. For deniers to be right, who would have to be wrong? Well, first of all, the victims — the survivors who have told us their harrowing stories. Who else would have to be wrong? The bystanders. The people who lived in the myriads of towns and villages and cities on the Eastern front, who watched their neighbors be rounded up — men, women, children, young, old — and be marched to the outskirts of the town to be shot and left dead in ditches. Or the Poles, who lived in towns and villages around the death camps, who watched day after day as the trains went in filled with people and came out empty.

1:30
But above all, who would have to be wrong? The perpetrators. The people who say, "We did it. I did it." Now, maybe they add a caveat. They say, "I didn't have a choice; I was forced to do it." But nonetheless, they say, "I did it." Think about it. In not one war crimes trial since the end of World War II has a perpetrator of any nationality ever said, "It didn't happen." Again, they may have said, "I was forced," but never that it didn't happen. Having thought that through, I decided denial was not going to be on my agenda; I had bigger things to worry about, to write about, to research, and I moved on.

2:23
Fast-forward a little over a decade, and two senior scholars — two of the most prominent historians of the Holocaust — approached me and said, "Deborah, let's have coffee. We have a research idea that we think is perfect for you." Intrigued and flattered that they came to me with an idea and thought me worthy of it, I asked, "What is it?" And they said, "Holocaust denial." And for the second time, I laughed. Holocaust denial? The Flat Earth folks? The Elvis-is-alive people? I should study them? And these two guys said, "Yeah, we're intrigued. What are they about? What's their objective? How do they manage to get people to believe what they say?"

3:13
So thinking, if they thought it was worthwhile, I would take a momentary diversion — maybe a year, maybe two, three, maybe even four — in academic terms, that's momentary.

3:25
(Laughter)

3:27
We work very slowly.

3:29
(Laughter)

3:31
And I would look at them. So I did. I did my research, and I came up with a number of things, two of which I'd like to share with you today.

3:39
One: deniers are wolves in sheep's clothing. They are the same: Nazis, neo-Nazis — you can decide whether you want to put a "neo" there or not. But when I looked at them, I didn't see any SS-like uniforms, swastika-like symbols on the wall, Sieg Heil salutes — none of that. What I found instead were people parading as respectable academics.

4:15
What did they have? They had an institute. An "Institute for Historical Review." They had a journal — a slick journal — a "Journal of Historical Review." One filled with papers — footnote-laden papers. And they had a new name. Not neo-Nazis, not anti-Semites — revisionists. They said, "We are revisionists. We are out to do one thing: to revise mistakes in history." But all you had to do was go one inch below the surface, and what did you find there? The same adulation of Hitler, praise of the Third Reich, anti-Semitism, racism, prejudice. This is what intrigued me. It was anti-Semitism, racism, prejudice, parading as rational discourse.

5:19
The other thing I found — many of us have been taught to think there are facts and there are opinions — after studying deniers, I think differently. There are facts, there are opinions, and there are lies. And what deniers want to do is take their lies, dress them up as opinions — maybe edgy opinions, maybe sort of out-of-the-box opinions — but then if they're opinions, they should be part of the conversation. And then they encroach on the facts.

5:54
I published my work — the book was published, "Denying the Holocaust: The Growing Assault on Truth and Memory," it came out in many different countries, including here in Penguin UK, and I was done with those folks and ready to move on. Then came the letter from Penguin UK. And for the third time, I laughed ... mistakenly. I opened the letter, and it informed me that David Irving was bringing a libel suit against me in the United Kingdom for calling him a Holocaust denier.

6:32
David Irving suing me? Who was David Irving? David Irving was a writer of historical works, most of them about World War II, and virtually all of those works took the position that the Nazis were really not so bad, and the Allies were really not so good. And the Jews, whatever happened to them, they sort of deserved it. He knew the documents, he knew the facts, but he somehow twisted them to get this opinion. He hadn't always been a Holocaust denier, but in the late '80s, he embraced it with great vigor.

7:10
The reason I laughed also was this was a man who not only was a Holocaust denier, but seemed quite proud of it. Here was a man — and I quote — who said, "I'm going to sink the battleship Auschwitz." Here was a man who pointed to the number tattooed on a survivor's arm and said, "How much money have you made from having that number tattooed on your arm?" Here was a man who said, "More people died in Senator Kennedy's car at Chappaquiddick than died in gas chambers at Auschwitz." That's an American reference, but you can look it up. This was not a man who seemed at all ashamed or reticent about being a Holocaust denier.

7:56
Now, lots of my academic colleagues counseled me — "Eh, Deborah, just ignore it." When I explained you can't just ignore a libel suit, they said, "Who's going to believe him anyway?" But here was the problem: British law put the onus, put the burden of proof on me to prove the truth of what I said, in contrast to as it would have been in the United States and in many other countries: on him to prove the falsehood.

8:26
What did that mean? That meant if I didn't fight, he would win by default. And if he won by default, he could then legitimately say, "My David Irving version of the Holocaust is a legitimate version. Deborah Lipstadt was found to have libeled me when she called me a Holocaust denier. Ipso facto, I, David Irving, am not a Holocaust denier." And what is that version? There was no plan to murder the Jews, there were no gas chambers, there were no mass shootings, Hitler had nothing to do with any suffering that went on, and the Jews have made this all up to get money from Germany and to get a state, and they've done it with the aid and abettance of the Allies — they've planted the documents and planted the evidence.

9:21
I couldn't let that stand and ever face a survivor or a child of survivors. I couldn't let that stand and consider myself a responsible historian. So we fought. And for those of you who haven't seen "Denial," spoiler alert: we won.

9:42
(Laughter)

9:44
(Applause)

9:50
The judge found David Irving to be a liar, a racist, an anti-Semite. His view of history was tendentious, he lied, he distorted — and most importantly, he did it deliberately. We showed a pattern, in over 25 different major instances. Not small things — many of us in this audience write books, are writing books; we always make mistakes, that's why we're glad to have second editions: correct the mistakes.

10:23
(Laughter)

10:25
But these always moved in the same direction: blame the Jews, exonerate the Nazis.

10:34
But how did we win? What we did is follow his footnotes back to his sources. And what did we find? Not in most cases, and not in the preponderance of cases, but in every single instance where he made some reference to the Holocaust, that his supposed evidence was distorted, half-truth, date-changed, sequence-changed, someone put at a meeting who wasn't there. In other words, he didn't have the evidence. His evidence didn't prove it. We didn't prove what happened. We proved that what he said happened — and by extension, all deniers, because he either quotes them or they get their arguments from him — is not true. What they claim — they don't have the evidence to prove it.

11:27
So why is my story more than just the story of a quirky, long, six-year, difficult lawsuit, an American professor being dragged into a courtroom by a man that the court declared in its judgment was a neo-Nazi polemicist? What message does it have? I think in the context of the question of truth, it has a very significant message. Because today, as we well know, truth and facts are under assault. Social media, for all the gifts it has given us, has also allowed the difference between facts — established facts — and lies to be flattened.

12:15
Third of all: extremism. You may not see Ku Klux Klan robes, you may not see burning crosses, you may not even hear outright white supremacist language. It may go by names: "alt-right," "National Front" — pick your names. But underneath, it's that same extremism that I found in Holocaust denial parading as rational discourse.

12:46
We live in an age where truth is on the defensive. I'm reminded of a New Yorker cartoon. A quiz show recently appeared in "The New Yorker" where the host of the quiz show is saying to one of the contestants, "Yes, ma'am, you had the right answer. But your opponent yelled more loudly than you did, so he gets the point."

13:07
What can we do? First of all, we cannot be beguiled by rational appearances. We've got to look underneath, and we will find there the extremism. Second of all, we must understand that truth is not relative. Number three, we must go on the offensive, not the defensive. When someone makes an outrageous claim, even though they may hold one of the highest offices in the land, if not the world — we must say to them, "Where's the proof? Where's the evidence?" We must hold their feet to the fire. We must not treat it as if their lies are the same as the facts.

14:02
And as I said earlier, truth is not relative. Many of us have grown up in the world of the academy and enlightened liberal thought, where we're taught everything is open to debate. But that's not the case. There are certain things that are true. There are indisputable facts — objective truths. Galileo taught it to us centuries ago. Even after being forced to recant by the Vatican that the Earth moved around the Sun, he came out, and what is he reported to have said? "And yet, it still moves."

14:46
The Earth is not flat. The climate is changing. Elvis is not alive.

14:54
(Laughter)

14:56
(Applause)

14:58
And most importantly, truth and fact are under assault. The job ahead of us, the task ahead of us, the challenge ahead of us is great. The time to fight is short. We must act now. Later will be too late.

15:23
Thank you very much.

15:24
(Applause)

*

I have posted a reply thus :

Hello Ms Lipstadt

I am what you would have your audience believe, a very bad person.

You would also have them believe, because of the opinion I hold on a certain historical matter, that I am associated with WW2 German National Socailism.

Let's not beat about the bush here, you call folk like me "Nazis".

Now, I haven't the slightest clue what National Socialism was all about.

I do have slightly more of a clue as to what you might mean when you attempt to describe folk like me as "Nazis", but until I understand what exactly you do mean by using such a nasty, derisive term, then I cannot really say if I fit your description or not.

So, would you be able to expand on what you mean when you call those folk "Nazis", who harbour doubts about the narrative surrounding the fate of European Jewry, Poles, Catholics, Gypsies, Political Prisoners, Homosexuals, POW's et al, in WW2 please ?

Without such a definition I am at a loss as to how to refute your vile and slanderous assertion.

When you have provided your rationale for consigning anyone who disagrees with "conventional holocaust wisdom" as a "Nazi", I do hope we can debate your ad hominem and continue that debate into some of the other claims you make and the holocaust narrative in general.

It would be great to have a discussion with you on this subject, although to start off your "discussion" with a global ad hominem is not, imo, the best way to start a rationale debate.

Kind regards

Henry Orhug


*

It would be marvellous CODOH members joined in too.

EDIT to include this link :

See also CODOH thread : Deborah Lipstadt's Lies & Deceptions (Germar Rudolf's new video)



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Re: Deborah Lipstadt: Behind the lies of Holocaust denial

Postby Horhug » 3 months 2 days ago (Wed May 17, 2017 10:37 am)

That was quick TED.com have deleted my message already.

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Re: Deborah Lipstadt: Behind the lies of Holocaust denial

Postby Horhug » 3 months 2 days ago (Wed May 17, 2017 10:39 am)

2nd attempt :

Question for Ms Lipstadt :

Why do you call everyone who has a different pov to the holocaust orthdoxy a Nazi ?

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Re: Deborah Lipstadt: Behind the lies of Holocaust denial

Postby Horhug » 3 months 2 days ago (Wed May 17, 2017 11:29 am)

They have deleted all of my posts apart from one.

Waste of time.

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Re: Deborah Lipstadt: Behind the lies of Holocaust denial

Postby Kingfisher » 3 months 2 days ago (Wed May 17, 2017 9:40 pm)

Not a complete waste of time.

A poster using the name "Heather Flowers" has successfully taken on Andy Mathis and made him look rather foolish as the best he too can manage is ad hominems. She withdrew in the end:
As our comments are being deleted, there's no sense using this comments section as a forum for debate. It was a nice back and forth while it lasted, cheers.
Perhaps a reference to Horhug.

Unfortunately she then went on to get involved in a discussion of climate change. I have strong doubts about the orthodox view here too, but I think it is a mistake to conflate unconnected issues (though Lipstadt did it first). It puts you in the position of having to defend two unorthodox and emotionally-associated positions at the same time and weakens your chances of influencing people on either issue.

https://www.ted.com/talks/deborah_lipstadt_behind_the_lies_of_holocaust_denial?language=en

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Re: Deborah Lipstadt: Behind the lies of Holocaust denial

Postby hermod » 3 months 2 days ago (Wed May 17, 2017 11:29 pm)

Why opt for the defensive attitude of shouting you're not a nazi, Horhug? What is the relationship between someone's political opinions and the veracity of his or her conclusions? Who cares about Galileo Galilei's views on Christianity? All that matters is what you can see or what you can't see through his telescope. Following Lipstadt's reasoning, any Zionist, pro-Zionist, Jewish or pro-Jewish historian's conclusions on the 'Holocaust' should be rejected from the outset for obvious bias.

I can't believe Lipstadt even dared to use Galileo Galilei's struggle for the truth about Heliocentrism, she who works so hard for Holocaust revisionists to be labelled as heretics only good enough for academic, economic, political and social pyres. Chutzpah at its best... :shock:
"But, however the world pretends to divide itself, there are ony two divisions in the world to-day - human beings and Germans. – Rudyard Kipling, The Morning Post (London), June 22, 1915

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Re: Deborah Lipstadt: Behind the lies of Holocaust denial

Postby borjastick » 3 months 1 day ago (Thu May 18, 2017 1:39 am)

Horhug wrote:2nd attempt :

Question for Ms Lipstadt :

Why do you call everyone who has a different pov to the holocaust orthdoxy a Nazi ?


You will have noticed that she not only accuses everyone who dares to question the holocaust story an anti-semite but she uses the same term over and again, as many times as possible. It's a kind of self validation and a brainwashing of those who probably believe the holocaust story but who have a small doubt here and there. They are decent people by and large and thus wouldn't want to be labelled as an anti-semite.

She's really a stuck record and one from twenty odd years ago - perhaps Elton John's Candle in the Wind. I was originally thinking Spice Girls but couldn't see Ms Lipstadt as a Spice Girl...
'Of the four million Jews under Nazi control in WW2, six million died and alas only five million survived.'

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Re: Deborah Lipstadt: Behind the lies of Holocaust denial

Postby Hannover » 3 months 1 day ago (Thu May 18, 2017 2:06 am)

Those trying to support the impossible at:
https://www.ted.com/talks/deborah_lipst ... anguage=en
would have their clocks cleaned at this forum, where specifics are required, challenges made, there's no dodging, and constant name calling is not permitted.

There's something terribly desperate in the tone of Lipstadt and her disciples. They are simply 'protesting too much'.
As if they subconsciously realize their position cannot withstand rational scrutiny.
Tick tock, tick tock.

We are talking about a full blown religion ... with Lipstadt as the high priestess.

- Hannover

Why do so many people want 6M Jews to be dead? Revisionists don't.
Jews should be elated to know that 6M of their brethren were not murdered.
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Re: Deborah Lipstadt: Behind the lies of Holocaust denial

Postby Horhug » 3 months 1 day ago (Thu May 18, 2017 3:19 am)

Hello hermod and thanks for your thoughts here.

hermod wrote:
Why opt for the defensive attitude of shouting you're not a nazi, Horhug?

What is the relationship between someone's political opinions and the veracity of his or her conclusions? Who cares about Galileo Galilei's views on Christianity? All that matters is what you can see or what you can't see through his telescope. Following Lipstadt's reasoning, any Zionist, pro-Zionist, Jewish or pro-Jewish historian's conclusions on the 'Holocaust' should be rejected from the outset for obvious bias.

I can't believe Lipstadt even dared to use Galileo Galilei's struggle for the truth about Heliocentrism, she who works so hard for Holocaust revisionists to be labelled as heretics only good enough for academic, economic, political and social pyres. Chutzpah at its best... :shock:




I did not opt for the defensive attitude of shouting I'm not a nazi.

I agree with the rest of your post entirely.

That was my point.

All of the discussion from me and the Flowers poster have now been deleted.

Such is the level of "holocaust debate" in our grown up world ...

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Re: Deborah Lipstadt: Behind the lies of Holocaust denial

Postby Tommo » 3 months 1 day ago (Thu May 18, 2017 7:16 am)

This woman (Lipstadt) is an intellectual imbecile.

Her "technical expert" committed perjury during her trial.

Irving is neither a proper holocaust denier or expert either (but infinitely more knowlegable than Lipstadt and Van Pelt)

She never mentions most strikingly that her entire legal team told her to basically shut up and one even made an extremely caustic statement post trial on how worthless she was and how her behaviour was atrocious. She did nothing!
What are you angry about? By proving the gas chambers a lie, I just knocked off half the holocaust and SAVED 3 million Jew's for you!

I just saved more Jew's than Oskar Schindler allegedly ever did! :lol:

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Re: Deborah Lipstadt: Behind the lies of Holocaust denial

Postby Kingfisher » 3 months 22 hours ago (Fri May 19, 2017 2:43 am)

Tommo wrote:She never mentions most strikingly that her entire legal team told her to basically shut up and one even made an extremely caustic statement post trial on how worthless she was and how her behaviour was atrocious. She did nothing!

It would be interesting and valuable if you could provide a link or other evidence of that.

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Re: Deborah Lipstadt: Behind the lies of Holocaust denial

Postby Tommo » 3 months 6 hours ago (Fri May 19, 2017 6:48 pm)

Kingfisher wrote:
Tommo wrote:She never mentions most strikingly that her entire legal team told her to basically shut up and one even made an extremely caustic statement post trial on how worthless she was and how her behaviour was atrocious. She did nothing!

It would be interesting and valuable if you could provide a link or other evidence of that.


Her lawyers imposed a gag rule on Deborah Lipstadt during her trial with David Irving–she was banned not only from testifying in court but also from speaking to the press–because they knew full well that a single word from this know-nothing’s mouth would sink the ship. In her account of the trial Lipstadt can barely conceal the lawyers’ contempt for her, yet she is too thick-headed to notice the absurdity of her smug two thumbs-up after the jury announced its verdict. She had as much to do with the victory as I did with last night’s performance of the Bolshoi.
—Norman Finkelstein. [Remembering Raul Hilberg]
What are you angry about? By proving the gas chambers a lie, I just knocked off half the holocaust and SAVED 3 million Jew's for you!

I just saved more Jew's than Oskar Schindler allegedly ever did! :lol:

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Re: Deborah Lipstadt: Behind the lies of Holocaust denial

Postby borjastick » 2 months 4 weeks ago (Sun May 21, 2017 10:24 am)

I couldn't watch the film of Her Ladyship The Very Smug Ms Lipstadt as I feel angry and violently ill when watching these people, prancing around bathing in the warm embrace of more arrogant smugness coming at them from the audience, which tends to be filled with Cultural Marxists, rampant 'no borders' type of Liberals and outright lunatic Zionist types.

However I did read the first twenty or so comments from people exactly as I have just described above.

It is clear that Ms Lipstick believes that all revisionists are knuckle dragging Nazis and jew haters.

That little or no brain power exists within the ranks of the revisionist movement.

That there can be no debating the holocaust as it has been proven over and over. It is fact!

The comments seemed to be from a large range of smug academic types who have that rather ugly superior attitude all over them. I noticed that odd Andrew Mathis, once of this Parish, lurking there too. Biting at the ankles of anyone he deems inferior to himself.

On the point of there being no revisionists with a decent IQ north of 140 I can positively state that this assumption is wholly without foundation. There are plenty of Phd types here with rather strong academic backgrounds who want truth and honesty regarding the holocaust.
'Of the four million Jews under Nazi control in WW2, six million died and alas only five million survived.'

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Re: Deborah Lipstadt: Behind the lies of Holocaust denial

Postby Kingfisher » 2 months 3 weeks ago (Mon May 22, 2017 4:44 pm)

Thanks Tommo, but your reply didn't relate to my request for evidence that:
Tommo wrote:one [of her lawyers] even made an extremely caustic statement post trial on how worthless she was and how her behaviour was atrocious

You quoted Finkelstein. I have to add, though that your quote was interesting in itself.

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Re: Deborah Lipstadt: Behind the lies of Holocaust denial

Postby Kingfisher » 2 months 3 weeks ago (Tue May 23, 2017 12:33 am)

Please delete


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