Diesel Gassings

[offlineFriedrich Paul Berg]

The vast majority of alleged Nazi gassings were supposedly done with diesel exhaust, and NOT cyanide, in Treblinka, Belzec and Sobibor and in the so-called "gas vans." A small group of holocaust fanatics (revisionists??) have also recognized the absurdity of the diesel stories but insist that it must have been gasoline exhaust instead. Most prominent among these people have been Roberto Muehlenkamp and Sergey Romanov. They have mistakenly claimed that all, or nearly all, of the "eyewitnesses" never even mentioned diesel. They have ignored some of the most prominent diesel "eyewitnesses."

For another "eyewitness" to diesel gassings, who could possibly be any better than Eliyahu Rosenberg:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WxVdqilb ... xt_from=RL

Rosenberg was one of the four key, self-proclaimed "eyewitnesses" in the trial of John Demjanjuk in Israel in 1987 but neither he nor any other "eyewitness" was ever cross-examined at all about the alleged murder weapon. Shame on the defense team for John Demjanjuk.

Believers in diesel toxicity might learn something from the following:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SP7B32_ycdY

Friedrich Paul Berg
Learn everything at http://www.nazigassings.com
Nazi Gassings Never Happened! Niemand wurde vergast!

[offlineCarto's Cutlass Supreme]

That second video is quite something. That issue is hardly ever discussed in the mainstream like that.

[offlineJustTheTruth]

Great post.

There is a project currently underway called the Source-Referenced Databases Project that will hopefully help dispel claims like this once and for all.

Using an online database with a web interface, it collects as much source-referenced material as possible relating to historically significant topics, starting with Treblinka. The database is searchable by catagory and topic as well as source. Anyone can add new entries or dispute current entries, but eventually it should become definitive on a particular topic, containing every known source relating to that topic. With all the specific info in one report, it is easy to see the glaring contradictions or alternatively, convergence of facts, best of all, the sources can be verified by using a hyperlink if a copy of the document is online.

So for example when searching for the topic: Gas Chambers: Description of engines, it currently returns the following quotes, demonstrating that most refer to diesel engines:


Gas Chambers: Description of engines
Poliakov, Léon

"... and also used the exhaust carbon monoxide gases from Diesel motors as the death agent."
Léon Poliakov, Harvest of Hate, Holocaust Library, New York 1979, p. 196. | http://www.vho.org/GB/Books/t/

Gas Chambers: Description of engines
Grossmann, Wassili

"The most diverse means were employed for killing: the exhaust gases of a heavy armored tank engine, which served the power station of Treblinka, were forced in."
Wassili Grossmann, Die Hölle von Treblinka, in: Die Vernichtungslager Maidanek und Treblinka, p. 49f. | http://www.vho.org/GB/Books/t/

Gas Chambers: Description of engines
Rosenberg, Eliahu

"Q. Was it manufactured by an engine, from the exhaust of a diesel engine? A. Yes. It was gas from an engine. They put in Ropa, which was a kind of oil, a crude oil, and the fumes entered the gas chambers."
Testimony of Eliahu Rosenberg: Adolf Eichmann Trial - Session 66, 6 June 1961 | http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/e/eic ... 66-07.html

Gas Chambers: Description of engines
Wiernik, Ya'akov

"And here was a spare engine next to the three. Numbers 1, 2, 3 and 26 were the engines that generated the electricity, and there, too, there was a motor."
Testimony of Ya'akov Wiernik: Adolf Eichmann Trial - Session 66, 6 June 1961 | http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/e/eic ... 66-04.html

Gas Chambers: Description of engines
Wiernik, Ya'akov

"There was an engine of a Soviet tank standing there, and in this way the gas was introduced."
Testimony of Ya'akov Wiernik: Adolf Eichmann Trial - Session 66, 6 June 1961 | http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/e/eic ... 66-04.html

Gas Chambers: Description of engines
Wiernik, Ya'akov

"The power plant operated alongside these chambers, supplying Camps 1 and 2 with electric current."
Yankel Wiernik, A Year in Treblinka, New York, 1944 | http://www.zchor.org/treblink/wiernik.htm

Gas Chambers: Description of engines
Wiernik, Ya'akov

"A motor taken from a dismantled Soviet tank stood in the power plant. This motor was used to pump the gas, which was let into the chambers by connecting the motor with the inflow pipes. "
Yankel Wiernik, A Year in Treblinka, New York, 1944 | http://www.zchor.org/treblink/wiernik.htm

Gas Chambers: Description of engines
Willenberg, Samuel

"The gas is produced by the motor of an old Russian tank."
Willenberg, S, Surviving Treblinka(1989) IBN 0-631-16261-5 (p.125-126) |

Gas Chambers: Description of engines
Willenberg, Samuel

"The motor which generated electricity for these lights was the same one as provided the burning gas for the gas chambers, where tens of thousands of humans were poisoned day by day."
Willenberg, S, Surviving Treblinka(1989) IBN 0-631-16261-5 (p.123) |

Gas Chambers: Description of engines
Willenberg, Samuel

"A moment later, the racket of an engine reached us from afar. "Now they poison the people with gas," I was told with terrifying simplicity. "With gas made by a diesel engine." Huge piles of clothing were ranged parallel to the hut."
Willenberg, S, Surviving Treblinka(1989) IBN 0-631-16261-5 (p.52) |

Gas Chambers: Description of engines
Malagon, Nikolai

"Near the diesel engines by the gas chambers "
United States Department of Justice - Record of Questioning of Witness: Malagon, Nikolai Petrovich, March 18, 1978 | http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/camps/akt ... alagon.001

Gas Chambers: Description of engines
Malagon, Nikolai

"Pipes carrying exhaust gas from running diesel motors were installed in the gas chambers and the people inside perished."
United States Department of Justice - Record of Questioning of Witness: Malagon, Nikolai Petrovich, March 18, 1978 | http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/camps/akt ... alagon.001


We see from the quotes already in the database, which are far from exhaustive , reveal the claims of Roberto Muehlenkamp and Sergey Romanov as the hot air they are.(mind the puns)

This is by far complete, but additional sources are constantly being added as anyone is able to contribute so definitely add additional sources if you have any about this particular topic then we can post the results to a new topic and ask Roberto Muehlenkamp and Sergey Romanov to respond.

If anyone is interested in this project go to http://www.hsrdb.com/ the site is clearly still under construction so not everything is functional yet but the searches and forms are mostly working.

[offlineRollo the Ganger]

I hope I'm not busting anyone's "bubble" here but it is possible to kill someone with a diesel engine. In fact, you can kill people using any internal combustion engine, including living one's such as a human being. And I don't mean by bopping them over the head with it. Let me explain. The primary exhaust product of an internal combustion engine, i.e. diesel engine, is carbon dioxide. CH + xO2 = CO2 + H20 ( "=" should be an arrow and "CH" represents any long chain hydrocarbon but I'm limited here). Carbon Dioxide kills:

http://www.anapsid.org/co2.html

It can kill by displacement of oxygen or it can kill simply from there being too high a concentration of it. In order for us to exhale carbon dioxide there must be a concentration gradient across the membranes in the lungs for osmosis to occur. If the concentration is too high we cannot exhale carbon dioxide out of our bodies and that can kill us. There is a term for this and I will let you look it up for yourself. Even breathing can kill people. How? Recall the crisis aboard the Apollo 13 spacecraft. The carbon dioxide scrubber in the Apollo Command Module was not working and if a fix wasn't found they would all die, regardless of the amount of oxygen available in the capsule. Die of what? Die of carbon dioxide poisoning. How? I just told you. The problem on Apollo 13 was how to fit a square peg into a round hole for those who were around in 1970 if you recall and they used the Lunar Module CO2 scrubber by Jerry-rigging it with duct tape and that did the job. (Smart fellows those Jerrys). The CO2 levels were kept at a safe level and there was a happy ending to the story. Does this prove the case for the Holohoaxers? No. All it proves is that there is a lot of ways to kill people. Locking people in a sealed room and waiting awhile will kill everyone inside. Their own breathing will kill them as long as fresh oxygenated air is not introduced to replenish the air supply. No hard feelings I hope?

[offlineps]

That´s right. The time to dead you can calculat by t[min] = - 31 ln (1-5/( %CO2))
The limit is 5% CO2 in the air. The formula is correct until to 100% CO2.

[offlineFriedrich Paul Berg]

I am quite certain that the claim and the article about carbon dioxide gassings is extremely misleading. Try to find a better source. According to my information, the gas actually used most often to euthanize animals (if a gas is used at all) is carbon m-o-n-o-x-d-e and NOT carbon dioxide!

Here is one good source:

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news ... nasia.html

Carbon dioxide together with pure oxygen has been used for about a century as an excellent gas for reviving many kinds of emergency patients. See also pages 7 through 10 of the following: http://www.avma.org/issues/animal_welfa ... anasia.pdf

Note the extremely high concentrations of carbon dioxide needed to euthanize animals compared to the very low levels, by contrast, needed with CO.

Friedrich Paul Berg
Learn everything at http://www.nazigassings.com
Nazi Gassings Never Happened! Niemand wurde vergast!

[offlineRollo the Ganger]

Herr Berg! Shame on you! Why do submarines have carbon dioxide scrubbers? Why do all spaceships have them? Have you ever read about the deaths at Lake Nyos in Africa? Carbon Dioxide dissolved at deep levels in the lake erupted and killed hundreds of people and cattle. Try these sources for example:

http://yarchive.net/med/co2_poisoning.html

http://oacu.od.nih.gov/ARAC/EuthCO2.pdf

http://r4nt.com/article/co2_we_call_it_death/

http://www.osha.gov/dts/hib/hib_data/hib19960605.html

This has nothing to do with the Holohoax. It's simple toxicology and basic chemistry. I read your link and the question is; "What killed the other dogs?" Indeed, deaths by carbon monoxide from diesel engines is extremely rare but, believe it or not, it has happened. It would certainly not be a means of mass murder. Carbon Dioxide poisoning in this case would be a more efficient means and this is what we are talking about. You seem like a good fellow but you really must do your homework. It makes us holohoax-deniers look bad and weakens our argument.

[offlineFriedrich Paul Berg]

From page 8 of the AVMA source at: http://www.avma.org/issues/animal_welfa ... anasia.pdf

Leake and Waters56 reported the experimental use of CO2 as an anesthetic agent for dogs. At concentrations of 30% to 40% CO2 in O2, anesthesia was induced within 1 to 2 minutes, usually without struggling, retching, or vomiting. For cats, inhalation of 60% CO2 results in loss of consciousness within 45 seconds, and respiratory arrest within 5 minutes.59 Signs of effective CO2 anesthesia are those associated with deep surgical anesthesia, such as loss of withdrawal and palpebral reflexes.60 Time to loss of consciousness is decreased by use of higher concentrations of CO2 with an 80 to 100% concentration providing anesthesia in 12 to 33 seconds in rats and 70% CO2 in O2 inducing anesthesia in 40 to 50 seconds.61,62 Time to loss of consciousness will be longer if the concentration is increased slowly rather than immersing the animal in the full concentration immediately.

It would be interesting to me to learn of any instances of deaths by diesel exhaust. When did it happen, Rollo the Ganger?

Indeed, deaths by carbon monoxide from diesel engines is extremely rare but, believe it or not, it has happened.

The alleged toxicity of carbon dioxide is a subject near and dear to me. Rollo the Gannger should read: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbogen#Mechanism

The CO2 levels involved in Meduna's carbogen were as high as 50%. But, in the presence of sufficient oxygen the risk to anyone inhaling that gas were minimal. Clearly, CO2 by itself works completely differently from the way CO works. One is a simple asphyxiant (not unlike water) whereas CO is a chemical asphyxiant which actually reacts with the body, hemoglobin.

Another source giving some of the history of Carbogen is: http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/carboge ... meline.php

That source tells us for 1930:

1930 E. W. Brown finds humans can tolerate 10% CO2 for more than 10 minutes without losing consciousness, but that is the maximum concentration that does not cause unconsciousness 2

Friedrich Paul Berg
Learn everything at http://www.nazigassings.com
Nazi Gassings Never Happened! Niemand wurde vergast!

[offlineRollo the Ganger]

Herr Berg,

With all due respect, it is not my responsibility to do your research which I am sure you are capable of doing yourself. I am under the assumption you are a serious student of history and are, or should be, adept at finding information on your own. But in this one case I'll make an exception. Here, does this satisfy you?

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1864 ... &linkpos=4

[offlineFriedrich Paul Berg]

The reference Rollo the Ganger gives above is already well-known to me and has been available through my website, homepage column left, with commentary, even audio commentary as follows:

http://www.nazigassings.com/griffincommentary.wav

The essay in a reputable forensic medical journal is, I believe, seriously flawed however because the CO levels that the authors postulate as the cause of the truck driver's death are ridiculously low. The essay is I think most useful for its admission that based on their own examination of the medical literature and medical examiner's records:

However, in the medical examiner area, lethal CO poisoning from inhalation of diesel fumes from any make or model of on-road vehicle is virtually unheard of and contemporary medical literature does not report it.

See page 1206 of the linked Griffin et al essay which follows:
Griffin, Ward, Terrell, Stewart: “Diesel Fumes DO Kill: A Case of Fatal Carbon Monoxide Poisoning Directly Attributed to Diesel Fuel Exhaust . . ."

There is only one other instance of death by diesel exhaust that I have ever been able to find anywhere. Perhaps, Rollo the Ganger, can find some more.

Friedrich Paul Berg
Learn everything at http://www.nazigassings.com
Nazi Gassings Never Happened! Niemand wurde vergast!

[offlineRollo the Ganger]

Perhaps, Friedrich Paul Berg, can find his own examples as I suggested. I personally don't give a hoot! Your comments only prove what I've been saying. Deaths by carbon monoxide from Diesel fumes are rare. Does Friedrich really believe any reader of this post believes he, Herr Berg, is the more reliable authority on the matter than the source listed for the article? If Herr Berg has a disagreement with any of the sources I've offered then his argument is with the source, not with me. The issue here isn't carbon monoxide, it's about carbon dioxide. I'm under the impression that Herr Berg believes NASA engaged in the exercise of correcting the issue on Apollo 13 to fix the carbon dioxide scrubbers was to placate the Holohoax interests. Eh? Perhaps Herr Berg has the answer as to what killed the hundreds of people and cattle at Lake Nyos in Africa? Perhaps Herr Berg can show us his refutations on the publications by NHI and OSHA regarding Carbon Dioxide poisoning? Eh? I can wait 'til hell freezes over for your answer sir.

[offlineRollo the Ganger]

Wait!, wait! I need to backtrack here. I took the time to actually look at the links Herr Berg suggested and I believe I have a misunderstanding of where this gentlemen is coming from. Maybe other "posters" can help me out. When Herr Berg replied to my comment regarding a rare incident of Diesel fume fatality, Herr Berg said:

[It would be interesting to me to learn of any instances of deaths by diesel exhaust. When did it happen, Rollo the Ganger?]

Fair enough, and I did, with the caveat I'd only do it this once. Then Herr Berg gave a very odd and non-sequitir response of:

[The reference Rollo the Ganger gives above is already well-known to me and has been available through my website, homepage column left, with commentary, even audio commentary as follows: http://www.nazigassings.com/griffincommentary.wav]

Huh? If the information I provided Herr Berg is "already well-known" to him then why did he ask? His original question above implies he had never heard of such a thing. If he did and asked it anyways then it's obvious Herr Berg is quite disingenuous in his responses. Worse, the link he offers confirms my argument. But things get worse when Herr Berg says:

[There is only one other instance of death by diesel exhaust that I have ever been able to find anywhere. Perhaps, Rollo the Ganger, can find some more.]

Duuhhhh?!!!.... didn't Herr Berg say: "It would be interesting to me [Berg] to learn of any instances of deaths by diesel exhaust..."? Apparently he already knew of two. And he's totally ignoring the fact that I said I'd only do it once. Does he consider me a liar?

But maybe the following statement by Herr Berg has some informative value to this matter:

[The alleged toxicity of carbon dioxide is a subject near and dear to me. Rollo the Gannger should read: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbogen#Mechanism ]

[offlineFriedrich Paul Berg]

Why should anyone be surprised at my interest in finding credible cases of death by diesel exhaust? Rollo-the-Ganger seemed to think he knew of some cases and so I prodded him to produce them. And now, he is so annoyed.

Friedrich Paul Berg
Learn everything at http://www.nazigassings.com
Nazi Gassings Never Happened! Niemand wurde vergast!

[offlineRollo the Ganger]

Actually Diesel engines could make rather effective killing machines. A Diesel engine running at 2200 rpm or greater with a fuel flow of over 120 kg/hr and using no. 2 Diesel fuel will generate an exhaust containing 9% CO2 and 8% O2. Death will occur with CO2 concentrations at 9% CO2 and 12% O2. Concentrations of 10% CO2 and 11% O2 will kill nearly immediately. The trick is when the ambient CO2 and O2 concentrations reach these levels in the death chamber the engine needs to be turned off so as not to introduce further O2 into the chamber. While keeping the chamber sealed a significant portion of the remaining O2 will be consumed quite rapidly from the breathing of those not yet expired with a corresponding increase of CO2. A target concentration of 10% CO2 and 11% O2 should insure rapid and total death to all occupants. If any victim manages to survive the experience the lack of further medical attention should insure expiration of the subject in a short period of time.

[offlineFriedrich Paul Berg]

And what is the basis of your claims, Rollo-the-Ganger? Do you really think you have the foggiest idea as to what you are talking about?
You seem to have a smidgeon of a technical background. Could you tell us what it is, without revealing anything personal like your name? I am so curious. How can anyone who knows anything at all about diesel engines be so dumb??

Friedrich Paul Berg
Learn everything at http://www.nazigassings.com
Nazi Gassings Never Happened! Niemand wurde vergast!