Auschwitz, Destruction of Crematories

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Re: Auschwitz, Destruction of Crematories

Postby hermod » 3 years 8 months ago (Sat Nov 16, 2013 10:24 pm)

TheBlackRabbitofInlé wrote:Image

I forgot to mention that in this Soviet-Polish photographic still, supposedly taken on or immediately after January 27, 1945; which supposedly shows two of the 30 warehouse in Canada II; all 30 of which the Nazis are supposed to have burnt on January 23, 1945, one of them isn't even on fire!


An indication in favor of the hypothesis "the Soviets destroyed some of the Auschwitz crematories themselves", even if we don't have any photographic evidence to prove or disprove that hypothesis. If the Soviets destroyed the Kanada warehouses, it's far from impossible they also destroyed the Birkenau crematories (the ones not destroyed by inmates during an uprising), especially when you know that claiming "the fascists erased all trace of their crimes" was a trick very often used by the Soviet propagandists during WW2 in order not to be forced to show physical evidence of their wacky allegations.


"But, however the world pretends to divide itself, there are ony two divisions in the world to-day - human beings and Germans. – Rudyard Kipling, The Morning Post (London), June 22, 1915

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Re: Auschwitz, Destruction of Crematories

Postby TheBlackRabbitofInlé » 3 years 8 months ago (Sun Nov 17, 2013 6:55 pm)

hermod wrote:An indication in favor of the hypothesis "the Soviets destroyed some of the Auschwitz crematories themselves", even if we don't have any photographic evidence to prove or disprove that hypothesis. If the Soviets destroyed the Kanada warehouses, it's far from impossible they also destroyed the Birkenau crematories (the ones not destroyed by inmates during an uprising), especially when you know that claiming "the fascists erased all trace of their crimes" was a trick very often used by the Soviet propagandists during WW2 in order not to be forced to show physical evidence of their wacky allegations.


I don't think there's any reason to suspect that the Germans were stupid enough to leave the crematoria standing for the Soviets to use for propaganda purposes. The Germans might not have had the advanced code-breaking techniques of Bletchley Park, but they wouldn't have needed them to know what the enemy was claiming about their Birkenau crematoria:

U.S. Board Bares Atrocity Details Told by Witnesses at Polish Camps

WASHINGTON, Nov. 25 -- In the first detailed report by a United States Government Agency offering eyewitness proof of mass murder by the Germans, the War Refugee Board made public today accounts by three persons of organized atrocities at Birkenau and Oswiecim [Auschwitz] in southwestern Poland that transcend the horrors of Lublin. ...

The two Slovak Jews cited in the WRB reports estimate the number of Jews gassed and burned at Birkenau in the two-year period at 1,765,000 ...

In the report the Jewish youths describe the gassing and burning technique as follows:

"At present there are four crematoria in operation at Birkenau, two large ones, I and II, and two smaller ones, III and IV. Those of Type I and II consist of three parts, i.e., (a) the furnace room, (b) the large hall, and (c) the gas chamber. ...

- The New York Times, November 26, 1944, p.1 and 24.
http://select.nytimes.com/gst/abstract. ... 5F408485F9


Carlo Mattogno comments on this aerial photo:
Image
The aerial photograph dated December 21, 1944 ... shows crematorium II being dismantled. Leichenkeller 2 appears to be uncovered; the roof and a large portion of the chimney have been taken down. Leichenkeller 1 shows fairly angular contours, which means that the concrete cover was surely laid bare.

Mattogno, Case for Sanity, p.494.


I don't believe there's any German documents that confirm they partially dismantled and later blew up crematoria II, III, and V, but a supposed Topf and Sons letter dated February 10, 1945, which was first aired in 2004, supposedly proves that ten triple-muffle ovens (surely from Krema II and III) were to be installed in Mauthausen. I only know of this from a friend who sent me a link to an article by revisionist maverick Little Grey Rabbit, who persuasively argues the letter's a fraud.
http://littlegreyrabbit.wordpress.com/2 ... ematorium/
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Re: Auschwitz, Destruction of Crematories

Postby TheBlackRabbitofInlé » 3 years 8 months ago (Sun Nov 17, 2013 8:08 pm)

Below are stills from the Soviet footage of Canada II:

Image

You can see the original footage here, from 0:49:
http://youtu.be/805gE_cgjMA?t=49s
Or with the narration in English, from 20:46
http://video.yandex.ru/users/doskado/view/847/

Mattogno writes (CFS, p.558) that the Germans only managed to burn down 24 of the 30 warehouses in Canada II; Andrzej Strzelecki (in the above cited source) states that numerous Auschwitz museum publications have—incorrectly, according to him—insisted that six of Canada II's warehouses survived:
http://fotos.fotoflexer.com/05f09d594e9 ... 03d6b0.jpg

At least two undamaged warehouses are visible in the Soviet footage which only shows part of Canada II.
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Re: Auschwitz, Destruction of Crematories

Postby Zulu » 3 years 7 months ago (Wed Nov 20, 2013 7:38 am)

TheBlackRabbitofInlé wrote:Excellent analysis Kladderadatsch. And I'm glad to learn you're still with us!

The theory that this picture shows the chimneys of either Kremas IV and V, or II and III, is silly for several reasons, as you've detailed. In regard to your 'likely camera location' (and I understand that you were only playing devil advocate with that), there is today no fence between Canada II (Section BIIg) and the Central Sauna, instead the entire section has a perimeter fence. As the following images obtained from Google Earth confirm:

Image


Almost two years ago—before I gave up trying to convince Carolyn Yeager and Furtherglory (who originated this theory) that these were not crematoria chimneys but the chimneys of the burning barracks—I said that IF these really are buildings in Canada II in this video still (and I don't believe they are), because of the angle of the burning buildings, and the the fence in the foreground, the video could only have been shot from Section BIIf:

Image

But that's impossible due to the fact that the fence posts overhand the wrong way to the ones in the Soviet footage.

Image

Even the fence posts at Auschwitz have undergone "museological reconstruction" over the years, but they couldn't have turned them around.

As to whether the storage barracks of Canada II possessed stoves and chimneys, there doesn't appear to be any evidence of them judging by the images available on Google Earth (although there appear to be two stray fence posts in the middle of Canada II!?):

I believe the burning buildings in the Soviet footage are not warehouses in Canada II, but prisoner barracks elsewhere in the camp which the Soviets burnt simply to film. Locating where they were seems impossible just from the single video still, although there is a utility pole present in it, which is worth bearing in mind.

Like Zulu, I'd be interested to see the the original footage which might offer further clues as to the real location of the burning barracks.

Thanks Kladderadatsch and TheBlackRabbitofInlé for your analysis.
However you seem to miss an important point:
Krema IV and V had both 2 chimneys as Pressac showed on several drawings and pictures like that one (A.T.O p. 418).

Auschwitz Krema IV ATO p 418.jpg

http://www.holocaust-history.org/auschw ... 0418.shtml

Given the apparent distance between the 2 chimneys of the Yeager's picture, it is evident that they can't be neither of KIV nor of KV.
There is then only one remaining possibility, that is that the chimneys could be those of KII and KIII. See picture in A.T.O Pressac p.369.

Chimneys photo holes Pressac 369.02.jpg

http://www.holocaust-history.org/auschw ... 0369.shtml

In such hypothesis, there are few possibilities concerning the spots from which the cameraman was located for taking the Yeager's picture.
It must be taken into account that the burning barracks should appear parallel to the fence.

Shooting spot 1.
Near the fence of the hospital in BIIf. However, from such position, the apparent distance between the 2 chimneys would be too short in relation with the Yeager's picture.

Auschwitz Destruction Kremas 1.jpg

Shooting spot 2.
Near the fence of the women's camp BIb. In that case, the distance between the 2 chimneys could be consistent with the Yeager's picture.

Auschwitz Destruction Kremas 2.jpg


Nevertheless, I am in doubt with such scenario because the length of the chimney above the roof seems to be higher on the Y's pic than on the Pressac's one. However, given the proportions of the chimney's dimensions which appears on the Y's pic, I see no many other alternatives at Birkenau than to award them to Krema II and III.

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Re: Auschwitz, Destruction of Crematories

Postby TheBlackRabbitofInlé » 3 years 7 months ago (Wed Nov 20, 2013 10:17 am)

Zulu wrote: However, due to the proportions of the chimney's dimensions which appears on the Y's pic, I don't see other possibilities than to affect them to KII and III at Birkenau.


You think these are the chimneys of Krema II and III in this photographic still?
Image

Aside from the implausible distances; the fact that the barracks in the southern half of BIb are built of brick, and the structures closest to the fence you've indicated—one of which has to be the burning building in your hypothesis—are latrines and wash rooms, the chimneys of K2 & 3 were a completely different shape to the chimneys in the still:

Image
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Re: Auschwitz, Destruction of Crematories

Postby Zulu » 3 years 7 months ago (Wed Nov 20, 2013 10:50 am)

TheBlackRabbitofInlé wrote:
Zulu wrote: However, due to the proportions of the chimney's dimensions which appears on the Y's pic, I don't see other possibilities than to affect them to KII and III at Birkenau.


You think these are the chimneys of Krema II and III in this photographic still?
Image

Aside from the implausible distances; the fact that the barracks in the southern half of BIb are built of brick, and the structures closest to the fence you've indicated—one of which has to be the burning building in your hypothesis—are latrines and wash rooms, the chimneys of K2 & 3 were a completely different shape to the chimneys in the still:

Image

You are right and that confirms my doubts. However, if both chimneys can't be of KIV-V and are not those of KII-III, the issue is to find what are they if we assume the picture is taken at Birkenau. I wonder if the genuine footage could put some light on it.

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Re: Auschwitz, Destruction of Crematories

Postby TheBlackRabbitofInlé » 3 years 7 months ago (Wed Nov 20, 2013 6:35 pm)

Image
Written by agju
Wednesday, 13 March 2013
Documentary photographs taken by Henryk Makarewicz and Stanisław Mucha at the liberated camp from January to March 1945. They are complemented by entries in the Museum Guest Book, made by some of the personalities who have visited the Auschwitz site. Polis h and English versions.

http://en.auschwitz.org/e/index.php?opt ... &Itemid=47


The AB museum site doesn't make it particularly clear. Is that a book you can buy ?!

If it is, it might give more info on our cameraman, and what ever happened to his film that the still is taken from.

Edit: Update...

Apparently it is/was an exhibition at the museum:

So come and kneel on this Golgotha ​​of modern ...

Documentary photographs taken by Henryk Makarewicz and Stanislaw Mucha, from January to March 1945 in the liberated camp. They are complemented by the entries in the guest book Museum, made by some of the figures during a visit to the former concentration camp. The exhibition is presented in Polish and English versions.

(translated from Polish using Goggle Chrome)
http://pl.auschwitz.org/e/index.php?opt ... &Itemid=40
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Re: Auschwitz, Destruction of Crematories

Postby Charles Traynor » 3 years 7 months ago (Thu Nov 21, 2013 11:29 am)

I’m inclined to agree that the two chimneys under discussion do not belong to the Kremas. It also seems unlikely they belong to the accommodation blocks because of their large size.

In theory this only leaves the kitchen blocks of the BII sectors as likely candidates. Unfortunately their chimneys came three per block which would rule them out unless one chimney in the picture had collapsed due to fire damage. Even then the chimneys still seem too far apart to belong to one building.

Could we quite by chance have stumbled across the location of the fabled lost bakeries of Birkenau? :)

The power/telephone line in the picture provides an additional clue towards locating where it was taken.

Image
The chimneys of the accommodation blocks appear to be too small. This plane probably flew right over Krema II.

Image
18:31 The large chimneys of a kitchen block located somewhere in BII

bImage
26:11 Kitchen block (BIIc? Used for holding Jewish women deported from Hungary who were NOT gassed as per the myth).

Image
Could modern video enhancement techniques reveal the true condition of Krema II from this aerial footage?


Better quality video
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Re: Auschwitz, Destruction of Crematories

Postby borjastick » 3 years 7 months ago (Fri Nov 22, 2013 2:46 am)

Have you absolutely ruled out the possibility that it wasn't taken elsewhere? Could it have been Dachau for example.

As Hannover says 'question everything'.
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Re: Auschwitz, Destruction of Crematories

Postby TheBlackRabbitofInlé » 3 years 7 months ago (Fri Nov 22, 2013 10:48 am)

Image

As I mentioned earlier, and something Charles picked up on too, the clue to locating where these barracks were situated is the utility poles.

To cut to the chase, I believe the building that is burning in the above video is one of the seven barracks in Compounds BIb or BIa that I've outlined in this image:

Image

Here's why....

The building adjacent to the burning building in the video still is indisputably a bog standard pre-fabricated Pferdestallbaracken (horse stable barrack) of which there were over 150 at Birkenau; mainly used as prisoner accommodation, but also used as hospital barracks, washrooms, latrines and even kindergartens for Jewish children. The building next to it, the one which is on fire, is very likely just another of them.

In the entire camp, the only ones that sat with their length (not their breadth, as the majority of them did) parallel to a fence, are those on the southern edge of Section BII, and those on the northern edge of Section BI:

Image

The photographs below were shot from the so-called selection ramp, visible in them are the same types of almost 'A' shaped utility poles that are visible in still of the burning barrack, and again the utility poles are in front of wooden stable barracks. The first photo definitely shows Barrack 6 of Compound BIb, and the second photo almost certainly shows the same building, as it shows the same people.

Image

Image

We can confirm on other photographs that both the utility poles and telegraph poles were on the southern side of the railway tracks in Birkenau. Therefore we can be sure that the burning building was situated in Section BI, as there would not have been another set of utility poles only 300ft away on the southern edge of Section BII running parallel to these ones, that would have been silly.

Image

Soviet Footage.

In the Soviet footage of Birkenau shot from the plane which features in the video Charles uploaded and posted on the thread, you can confirm that several of the wooden barracks are still present and correct. You might be able to see more than I can, but I only annotated on the image below the block numbers of the barracks that are incontestably discernible:

Image

Which one was it?

I don't know. I also don't believe, on the available evidence, there's anyway of telling whether the barrack was burnt down after the Soviets shot the footage from the plane, or if it had already been destroyed, and in the film released to the public the footage of the ruins has been cropped off.

There is snow on the roof of barrack next to the one that is on fire, although in the Soviet footage the snow has melted from the many of the roofs. But it was Poland in late January/early February, after the Soviets has shot the footage from the plane those roofs might have been covered in a fresh blanket of snow within a few hours.

But to finish, I'll just illustrate one of the possibilities. If it was Barrack 24 in Compound BIb that was the building on fire in the still, this one...

Image

... then this image obtained from Google Earth shows both the chimneys (possibly reconstructed, it is Auschwitz we're talking about!) and the lamp that is visible in the photographic still:

Image

Image
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Re: Auschwitz, Destruction of Crematories

Postby TheBlackRabbitofInlé » 3 years 7 months ago (Sat Nov 23, 2013 9:36 am)

Carlo Mattogno quotes a German document from December 8, 1944 about 100 prisoners being requested for demolition work on a crematorium at Birkenau:

on the 8th, the head of the Zentralbauleitung (Central Construction Office, Auschwitz) , SS-Obersturmführer Werner Jothann, requested Abteilung IIIa (prisoner labor employment) for the immediate assignment of 100 prisoners for the demolition work "at the crematorium [in] Camp II" (beim Krematorium Lager II) 258, undoubtedly Crematorium II.

258. RGVA (Russian State War Archive, Moscow), 502-1-67, p. 227.


"The Truth About the Gas Chambers?" Historical Considerations relating to Shlomo Venezia's "Unique Testimony"
by Carlo Mattogno
http://inconvenienthistory.com/archive/ ... ambers.php
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Re: Auschwitz, Destruction of Crematories

Postby Charles Traynor » 3 years 7 months ago (Sat Nov 23, 2013 11:00 am)

Excellent work Black Rabbit, that particular photograph has been the subject of many discussions over the years, but the location of where it was taken, and what blocks those chimneys belonged to has always remained a mystery until now. I would like to reiterate borjastick’s previous words of praise. Your methodology based on cold hard logic combined with firsthand knowledge of the camp gave you the edge in finally solving the puzzle. Well done!
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Re: Auschwitz, Destruction of Crematories

Postby TheBlackRabbitofInlé » 3 years 7 months ago (Sat Nov 23, 2013 1:27 pm)

Thanks very much Charles.

I must say I was wrong on one point, although something irrelevant to the discussion about the photo.

Possibly two guards in the first, and certainly two in the second of these photographs are holding walking sticks, which, with some haste thrown in, resulted in me wrongly claiming they were the same people.

TheBlackRabbitofInlé wrote:The first photo definitely shows Barrack 6 of Compound BIb, and the second photo almost certainly shows the same building, as it shows the same people.

Image

Image
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Re: Auschwitz, Destruction of Crematories

Postby TheBlackRabbitofInlé » 3 years 6 months ago (Thu Jan 09, 2014 3:27 pm)

More proof that it was the Germans who dismantled the crematoria from Mattogno:

The revolt of the "Sonderkommando" on October 7, 1944, is not mentioned in any document. The only document which is cited in this context is the garrison order no. 26/44 of October 12, 1944, which states: [271]

"On active service in the fight against the enemy and true to their oath on the Fuhrer lost their lives on October 7, 1944. "

This is followed by the names of three SS-Unterscharfiihrer, Rudolf Erler, Willi Freese, and Josef Purke. The circumstances of the deaths of these three non-coms are not known.

The strength of the crematorium personnel fell from 661 detainees on October 8 to 212 on the October 9 th and to 198 on the 10 th . Besides, from the 10th onwards, crematorium V remained unmanned, which confirms that it had suffered irreparable damage. On the photograph of December 21, 1944, it appears to have been completely demolished. [272] However, no Central Construction Office document speaking of the causes and the extent of the damage has been found, although such considerations would have entered into the competence of this office. There is no documentary proof that the 463 detainees missing had been killed.

According to D. Czech, a "selection" was made among the 200 detainees assigned to the crematoria on November 26, 1944: 30 were sent to crematorium V, 70 were assigned to the Abbruchkommando" for the demolition of the crematoria and 100 were killed. [273] Danuta Czech tells us that "they were probably shot in one of the cremation trenches at Birkenau," but she forgets that she had written earlier that these alleged cremation trenches had been filled in at the end of August.

As far as the remaining detainees are concerned, the Kommando "53-B Heizer Krematorium IV," on January 16, 1945, was, in fact, made up of 30 detainees, among whom the Poles Jozef Ilczuk (ID 14916), Waclaw Lipka (ID 2520), and Mieczyslaw Morawa (ID 5730), all housed in barrack 16 of camp Blld, had had the functions of Kapo and foremen. [274] But according to the worksheet of January 16, 1945, this Kommando did not have any guards! [275]

This document mentions also an "Abbruchkommando Krematorium" (demolition commando crematorium) designated 104-B, made up of 70 detainees. It, too, did not have any SS-guards, which proves that the crematorium personnel may well have been assigned to some other Kommando and that the reduction in strength did not necessarily mean that those detainees had been killed.

All of the future "witnesses" of the alleged extermination, that is to say: Henryk Tauber, Szlama Dragon, Stanislaw Jankowski, Miklos Nyiszli, Henryk Mandelbaum, and Sigismund Bendel, belonged to these two Kommandos, but instead of being exterminated as "carriers of secrets," those hundred detainees were quietly evacuated on January 18, 1945. [276] Another five "carriers of secrets" - Jozef Ilczuk, Waclaw Lipka, Mieczyslaw Morawa (see above), Wladyslaw Biskup (ID 14501), and Jean Agrestowski (ID 74545) had been transferred to Mauthausen on January 5, 1945, where they are said to have been shot on April 3 [277] (but there is no document to sustain this), which means that these detainees were moved from a mass extermination camp to an ordinary concentration camp only to be shot there later on!


[275] RGVA, 502-1-67, p. 17a. Cf. document 48.

(Sorry, but diacritical marks and italicised words lost in the copying and the pasting, please see original text on link below.)

Auschwitz: Open Air Incinerations, by Carlo Mattogno, pp.73-74.
https://archive.org/stream/MattognoCarl ... 3/mode/2up
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Re: Auschwitz, Destruction of Crematories

Postby TheBlackRabbitofInlé » 2 years 2 weeks ago (Wed Jul 01, 2015 11:51 pm)

Image

In a previous post I showed that the barrack on fire in Henryk Makarewicz's video still [above] could only have been one of the barracks on the northerly edge of Birkenau Section B1. Having now considered several aerial photos and footage of the camp, I believe I have precisely pin-pointed which barrack it was.

For ease of following my explanation, I've annotated an August 25, 1944, photo of Section B1 with the barracks numbers:
Image
B1A: http://fotos.fotoflexer.com/f1d28e586d1c0f19f5f8d2a22c3fd948.jpg
B1B: http://fotos.fotoflexer.com/6bb5e30006a807de0697fa8ee55367e7.jpg


Below is Birkenau Section B1 as it appears in four different aerial photos. The earlier three were all taken prior to liberation, and the final photo was taken more than two weeks after the Soviets had captured the camp.
Image
29.11.44: https://catalog.archives.gov/id/305906?q=NWDNC-263-AUSCHWITZ
21.12.44: https://catalog.archives.gov/id/305908?q=NWDNC-263-AUSCHWITZ
14.01.45: https://catalog.archives.gov/id/305912?q=NWDNC-263-AUSCHWITZ
13.02.45: http://www-tc.pbs.org/auschwitz/maps/aerial2.jpg

In the January photo we can see that the Germans had dismantled or partially dismantled a total of 8 barracks in Compound B1a since the December photograph was taken. The February photo shows that the remnants of these 8 dismantled barracks had been cleared. These two photos enable us to rule out most of the barracks on the northerly edge of Section B1 as being the burning barrack, because: a) they were dismantled prior to the Germans abandoning the camp, or b) they're still present more than two weeks after Makarewicz shot his footage of the burning barrack.

One barrack though, is different in the January and February photos: Barrack 6 in Compound B1B. It's westerly end has been destroyed:
Image

It is the westerly end of a barrack in Section B1 that is burning in Makarewicz's video still:
Image

Further confirmation that it is Barrack 6 in Compound B1B, is found in the Soviet aerial footage that Vincent Reynouard used in his 'Oven Loaders at Auschwitz, a Mystery Solved?' video (9:55-10:05). I used the footage to make the gif and screen shot and below. In both you can clearly see that the westerly end of Barrack 6 has been destroyed:

Image

Image

The fire that Makarewicz filmed must have petered out not too long after he shot this scene; the fire never made it to the other end of the barrack, it only destroyed the westerly end:
Image


Summary:

Andrzej Strzelecki claims in The Evacuation, Dismantling and Liberation of KL Auschwitz that this video still shows "The Birkenau camp warehouses known as 'Kanada' were set ablaze by retreating SS troops on [23 January 1945] and burnt for five days." (p.268 + 208). Danuta Czech doesn't feature the video still, but makes the same claim about the Canada II barracks been torched on the 23rd and buring for several days (Auschwitz Chronicle, p.800).

The Soviet report on Auschwitz [USSR 008] states that the Germans burnt 29 of the 35 barracks they used for storing plundered property in Auschwitz [referring to Canada I & II presumably]. This not something I would personally contest. The Germans would have been aware of the atrocity-mongering by the Soviets just about the '820,000' pairs of shoes they'd found at Majdanek in July 1944. The Germans dismantled and destroyed the crematoria of Birkenau, probably not in a futile effort to totally prevent Allied atrocity-propaganda, but they at least weren't going to make it so easy for the Soviets to create this time. This is why I accept the claim that the Germans burnt the warehouses.

Strzelecki's claim that the fire was four/five days old when it was filmed by Henryk Makarewicz, it is of course too preposterous to even momentarily entertain. The fire is likely to have been just minutes old when it was filmed. Which would mean that this particular fire was started by Soviets, perhaps because they thought it a good idea to film a burning barrack.

As for Strzelecki's claim that the burning barrack was a warehouse in Canada II, this has now been thoroughly refuted.

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Nazis tried to create super-soldiers, using steroids ... they sought to reanimate the dead—coffins of famous Germanic warriors were found hidden in a mine, with plans to bring them back to life at the war’s end.
- Prof. Noah Charney


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