War-Invocation: From May 11th to September 6th, 1940

All aspects including lead-in to hostilities and results.

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astro3
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War-Invocation: From May 11th to September 6th, 1940

Postby astro3 » 1 year 1 month ago (Tue Mar 01, 2016 9:23 am)

'There are no Revisionist historians' - Nick Terry

Here is a challenge for revisionist historians.

On May 11h, 1940 (the day after Churchill became Prime Minister), Britain started to bomb German cities. Cities full of people. Like, Hamburg on May 16th. But with amazing restraint, the Luftwaffe did not reply in kind until September 16th. Over that nearly four-month period, Hitler kept putting out peace-offers hoping that the war could be avoided.

I believe that David Irving is the only historian to put forward this view. Is that so? My hunch is, that he is correct on this matter. See eg his talk here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8qAdJTHQysI

August 24th, first bombing of London

For a different view, see eg www.battleofbritain1940.net/0029.html which has a range of targets in London hit on 24th, and is not sure whether it was intended.
I live in Walthamstow, East London, which is on the above list. I checked out its war-records and it has bombs fall on 23rd and 25th of August with no-one killed.

Let's quote the Battle of Britain website:
This raid resulted in the largest amount of casualties so far in a single raid during the Battle of Britain. Over 100 people in the city were killed on that afternoon, and 300 sustained serious injuries. Houses, shops, factories, the Naval barracks and the dockyards were all seriously damaged. Bombs landed on East Ham, West Ham, Stepney, Bethnal Green, Hackney, Leyton, Walthamstow, Edmonton, Islington and Bloomsbury. All these areas received bomb damage between 2300hrs on August 24th 1940 and 0130hrs on August 25th 1940.


(Compare account in Irving, Churchill's War p.406 'nobody was killed')

On Irving's version, one German plane aiming for oil refineries at Rotherhithe, had by mistake flown too far and bombed East London, on 24th August 1940 - giving Churchill the excuse he needed to order a massive bombing raid on Berlin on 26th August.

Whereas a new book on WW2 says:
On the night of 24th August, a force of more than hundred German bombers overflew their targets and bombed Eastern & central london by mistake p165.

The 2nd World War, Anthony Beevor 2012 p.165.

Newspaper Reports
The Times wrote that in London on Saturday 24th 'the damage was very small indeed' with no 'devastation' and 'about four deaths', but it also said: 'For the first time, bombs fell on central London … Screaming bombs were heard in the London area during the raid early this morning. A screaming bomb 'Fell from the sky.' Ramsgate was also bombed but had 'comparatively few casualties'

The Evening Standard Mon 26th had: St Giles church Cripplegate was hit in the City and then 'single German raiders returned to drop bombs on many London suburbs' with 'a long raid on N-E London early today'. Saturday 24th had 'bombs dropped on many residential quarters.' Ramsgate had three attacks with some 200 incendiary bombs dropped.

The newspapers generally gave the impression that the immediately-following bombing of Berlin was a 'justified' reprisal.

So, i don't know what to believe.
.



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Re: War-Invocation: From May 11th to September 6th, 1940

Postby astro3 » 1 year 1 month ago (Thu Mar 03, 2016 3:29 pm)

This thread is a development from these earlier discussions: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1786&p=11006
viewtopic.php?f=20&t=7364

Here is yet another account of what happened on the night of August 24th 1940 -
Bombs meant to be dropped on the Thames haven oil storage depot and on the Short's factory at Rochester, by mistake or simply because they were randomly unloaded in order to escape fighters, fell on the City of London and nine other districts inside the Greater London limit. Incendiaries lit fires in Bethnal Green, and St Giles' Church in Cripplegate was damaged. Oxford Street department storeswere damaged. Nine people were killed and 58 injured.
It comes from an anonymous German source:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/87187334/Chur ... ties-First - trans from German

Liddell Hart in his History of WW2 has the raid being acidental, by 'some ten German bombers' which had lost their way. (p109) That sounds like as good as this story will ever get.

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Re: War-Invocation: From May 11th to September 6th, 1940

Postby astro3 » 1 year 1 month ago (Thu Mar 03, 2016 5:35 pm)

On 4th August 1940 Charles de Gaulle (according to David Irving at 2:30 minutes of above-referenced speech, 'Churchill's War') heard Churchill crying out at the sky 'Why won't you come?' while shaking his fist at the sky - ie, impatient for the Luftwaffe to start bombing British towns like the RAF was doing in Germany. This incident also gets mentioned in his 'Churchill's War' and the reference is vaguely said to be De Gaulle's Memoirs. . Can anyone find this? Its not in the English version, so I queried Irving and he said it was in the French version. This is Mémoires de Guerre, Volume 1 L'Appel, 1940-42. Again i could not find it there ..... but maybe someone else can?

It would be quite a story if that could be verified.

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Re: War-Invocation: From May 11th to September 6th, 1940

Postby astro3 » 1 year 1 month ago (Thu Mar 03, 2016 5:41 pm)

Another wierd story that Irving comes out with, from this period, concerns an ultra-cynical remark Churchill allegedly made to the British Ambassador Joe Kennedy -
I want the Germans to start bombing London as early as possible because this will bring the Americans into the war when they see the Nazis' frightfulness, and above all it will put an end to this awkward and inconvenient peace movement that's afoot in my own Cabinet and among the British population.
Irving explained: "I've opened Kennedy's diary. I've also read Kennedy's telegram." http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v07/v07p498_Okeefe.html
Is this verifiable at all, or is it just another David Irving story? I searched through his online Churchill's War for 'Kennedy' and there were quite a lot of references but not to this.

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Re: War-Invocation: From May 11th to September 6th, 1940

Postby Review » 1 year 3 days ago (Thu Apr 21, 2016 10:47 am)

astro3 wrote:Another wierd story that Irving comes out with, from this period, concerns an ultra-cynical remark Churchill allegedly made to the British Ambassador Joe Kennedy -
I want the Germans to start bombing London as early as possible because this will bring the Americans into the war when they see the Nazis' frightfulness, and above all it will put an end to this awkward and inconvenient peace movement that's afoot in my own Cabinet and among the British population.
Irving explained: "I've opened Kennedy's diary. I've also read Kennedy's telegram." http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v07/v07p498_Okeefe.html
Is this verifiable at all, or is it just another David Irving story? I searched through his online Churchill's War for 'Kennedy' and there were quite a lot of references but not to this.


Is there a particular reason not to trust Theodore O`Keefe on this ? He was(?) a Harvard graduate in history, after all. Churchill was a drunk and a warmonger (by nature or manipulated, IDK), as far as I'm concerned..

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Re: War-Invocation: From May 11th to September 6th, 1940

Postby astro3 » 10 months 2 weeks ago (Mon Jun 06, 2016 6:23 am)

Shucks. Well, I'm sorry no-one wants to discuss this matter. Anyhow I've put it in my new little book
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Britain-Initia ... 1530993180


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Re: War-Invocation: From May 11th to September 6th, 1940

Postby Hektor » 3 months 4 weeks ago (Sun Dec 25, 2016 3:31 pm)

The court historians will avoid anything that remotely looks remotely like a defense or apology of Germany during world war two.

The British planned bombing cities long before WW2 got going:
https://archive.org/details/Considerati ... eMarch1938


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