Polish Atrocities against Germans before 1. September 1939

All aspects including lead-in to hostilities and results.

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Re: Polish Atrocities against Germans before 1. September 19

Postby Toshiro » 4 years 6 months ago (Sat Jan 12, 2013 2:33 pm)

As I said, not all of it was offtopic.

Also, how can anyone say the pre-WWI history is "irrelevant" for immediate post-WWI history? If this is so, the post-WWI history is irrelevant to the pre-WWII history, and as such is "off the mark" for this discussion. We are trying to be neutral and factual here, and not one-sided and hypocritical like the Israelis, are we not?



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Re: Polish Atrocities against Germans before 1. September 19

Postby Moderator » 4 years 6 months ago (Sat Jan 12, 2013 4:41 pm)

Gentlemen:
Yes, there was relevant content mixed with off topic content within the posts I removed. The only option was to edit each post in order to remove the off topic content and leave the rest. Now, I don't know about you guys, but I just don't want to spend 24/7 at this forum tweaking peoples' posts who would then complain about their posts being edited.
The guidelines speak of the era for discussion. The between-the-wars period clearly was formative to WWII. Those years are obviously relevant. The gist of the National Socialist grievances were largely based around the Versailles Treaty, in force during that period.
Please note that we've included the "lead-in to hostilities". Also note that we will not be discussing WWI. However, WWI's ramifications in producing grievances (ex.: The Versailles Treaty) etc., can be discussed at this forum.

Also, Gleiwitz, which is a very interesting subject, certainly fits in this forum, but in a separate thread.
Toshiro, I'll PM your removed posts later today.
Thanks all.
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Re: Polish Atrocities against Germans before 1. September 19

Postby Toshiro » 4 years 6 months ago (Sun Jan 13, 2013 1:10 pm)

Hannover wrote:I also believe there were numerous, non-German newspapers which had information about the atrocities.

You believe? Let's see them.

Hannover wrote:Most accounts given indicate atrocities committed shortly before the German attack.

"Most accounts" is currently just a German propaganda book, a ridiculous statement by Leon Degrelle, which he probably got out of the book, Goebbels' speech and Hitler's speech.

Hannover wrote:And, the earlier atrocities combined with the later ones are indications of continued, unrelenting atrocities against Germans.

The "later ones" were anti-German protests and the like, which at worst forced some Germans to move out. I don't know why we keep calling these "atrocities," since no massacres happened.

Hannover wrote:You presume?

Yes, since I haven't read the book. But, I just skimmed through really quick, and, except for the Bromberg Massacre (which is over-exaggerated in the book), contains no mention of any massacres in the 30's. It does, however, mention various anti-German protests and tells about the anti-German sentiment in Poland at the time, which is hardly news. As I said, this is no different than what the Poles experienced between 1885-1915. And again, calling these protests and their anti-German sentiment an "atrocity" is ridiculous. So, unless my fast reading missed something, I was right. Feel free to quote something out of the book that you think equals an atrocity and happened in the 30's, prior September 1939.

Hannover wrote:Yes, one can. Their behavior proves it. Not every Pole, of course. And then you blame the victims who had their land stolen under the cruel Treaty of Versailles, and who, by overwhelming numbers via plebiscite (ignored by the Poles), voted to have the regions returned to Germany.

Instead of going offtopic again, my answer will be short and simple: no, you can't, and we will have to agree to disagree.

Hannover wrote:You claim "Dokumente polnischer Grausamkeiten" is 'propaganda, yet you have not shown that it's contents are in error.

Its contents show no massacres or atrocities except for the Bromberg Massacre, which they over-exaggerated by claiming over 58,000 people got massacred. Of course it was a propaganda book, it is the very definition of propaganda.

Hannover wrote:You ask for documentation, I give you numerous sources for it, and you dismiss it out of hand without refuting it. Come on, my friend.

You gave two sources for anything remotely close to WWII:
1: a propaganda book (and its translation), which contains no pre-September 1939 atrocities
2: a ridiculous statement not based on any evidence; as valid as any Holocaust survivor testimony

And two sources for post-WWI mistreatment of Germans. I have no problem accepting those, since they are just a response to the happenings in Bismarck's era, and belong to a completely different category, not to mention time-frame.

Hektor wrote:The Polish question in Prussia was largely about language and church issues

Incorrect, but as this is offtopic, I won't go into this again.

Here's more from Goebbels' New Year address:
On 25 August Poland further intensified the situation by firing on a German plane with a Reich Secretary on board on international airspace.

[...]

German consulates reported 55 instances between 25 and 31 August of the most serious Polish attacks on ethnic Germans. Polish troops committed a series of serious border violations on 31 August.

And Hitler's speech on September 1st, 1939:
I can no longer find any willingness on the part of the Polish Government to conduct serious negotiations with us. These proposals for mediation have failed because in the meanwhile there, first of all, came as an answer the sudden Polish general mobilization, followed by more Polish atrocities. These were again repeated last night. Recently in one night there were as many as twenty-one frontier incidents: last night there were fourteen, of which three were quite serious. I have, therefore, resolved to speak to Poland in the same language that Poland for months past has used toward us...

This night for the first time Polish regular soldiers fired on our own territory. Since 5:45 a. m. we have been returning the fire... I will continue this struggle, no matter against whom, until the safety of the Reich and its rights are secured


So, if this isn't mere propaganda, and there are documents to confirm this... I think it would fit into this thread.
Last edited by Toshiro on Sun Jan 13, 2013 1:46 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Polish Atrocities against Germans before 1. September 19

Postby Hannover » 4 years 6 months ago (Sun Jan 13, 2013 1:35 pm)

Toshiro:
"Most accounts" is currently just a German propaganda book, a ridiculous statement by Leon Degrelle, which he probably got out of the book, and Goebbels' speech.

You say 'propaganda' but cannot show it's contents are wrong, and you admit you haven't read it. Lovely, Degrelle "probably" got info. from a Goebbel's speech? Probably? Is that your best shot? BTW, Degrelle was a Belgian SS volunteer.

The "later ones" were anti-German protests and the like, which at worst forced some Germans to move out. I don't know why we keep calling these "atrocities," since no massacres happened.

I'm afraid you simply refuse to read what I posted. References to mass killings are numerous. I'm not going to continue to post what I have already posted.

Yes, since I haven't read the book. But, I just skimmed through really quick, and, except for the Bromberg Massacre (which is over-exaggerated in the book), contains no mention of any massacres in the 30's. It does, however, mention various anti-German protests and tells about the anti-German sentiment in Poland at the time, which is hardly news. As I said, this is no different than what the Poles experienced between 1885-1915. And again, calling these protests and their anti-German sentiment an "atrocity" is ridiculous. So, unless my fast reading missed something, I was right. Feel free to quote something out of the book that you think equals an atrocity and happened in the 30's, prior September 1939.

Why would a description of the Bromberg massacres talk about earlier massacres. The point is Bromberg. And you cannot show us that the claims about Bromberg (which is not the subject of this thread) are exaggerated. All talk, Toshiro. I cited numerous reference for massacres pre-Bromberg, but you dodge them. And quit changing the subject to the 19th century.

Its contents show no massacres or atrocities except for the Bromberg Massacre, which they over-exaggerated by claiming over 58,000 people got massacred. Of course it was a propaganda book, it is the very definition of propaganda.

Oh please, you have not read the book. I challenge you to prove the information about between-the-wars massacres is wrong. You have not, and cannot it would appear.

You gave two sources for anything remotely close to WWII

Absolute nonsense. Apparently you do not read what I post. Too bad, and not very good for your position.

Again, I challenge you to provide proof that the multi-sourced references I gave for mass killing in between-the-wars Poland are fictitious. You seem to be wishing rather than debating.

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Re: Polish Atrocities against Germans before 1. September 19

Postby Toshiro » 4 years 6 months ago (Sun Jan 13, 2013 2:36 pm)

Hannover wrote:You say 'propaganda' but cannot show it's contents are wrong, and you admit you haven't read it. Lovely, Degrelle "probably" got info. from a Goebbel's speech? Probably? Is that your best shot? BTW, Degrelle was a Belgian SS volunteer.

I explained what its contents are (although through a quick read-through), and found no mention of any atrocities except for the Bromberg Massacre which happened on September 3rd. I then asked you to cite anything from the book (which, since you referenced, ought to have read, right?) which constitutes an "atrocity." I am still waiting.
You misunderstood; Degrelle probably got that nonsense out of the book, not any speech. Or was he present in Poland and witnessed those atrocities happening himself before September 1st? Not likely, since he was in Belgium at the time.

Hannover wrote:I'm afraid you simply refuse to read what I posted. References to mass killings are numerous. I'm not going to continue to post what I have already posted.

Please cite any mass killings or other atrocities out of your references that happened in the thirties before September 1st. Simply linking to a book does not fly around here, and you know it. As I said, I have no problem accepting immediate post-WWI atrocities, but I am interested in these supposed atrocities that happened "shorty before WWII."

Hannover wrote:Why would a description of the Bromberg massacres talk about earlier massacres. The point is Bromberg. And you cannot show us that the claims about Bromberg (which is not the subject of this thread) are exaggerated. All talk, Toshiro. I cited numerous reference for massacres pre-Bromberg, but you dodge them. And quit changing the subject to the 19th century.

You misunderstood; it is the book in entirety that does not talk about earlier massacres, not just the description about Bromberg. I skimmed through and found none. Since you linked to the book, cite any mentions of earlier massacres. Surely one has to provide proper evidence instead of merely pointing to a book. As far as I know, this kind of discussion is not allowed on CODOH.
It is a well established fact that the 58,000/60,000+ number is false, but since this is offtopic, enough about that.
On the contrary, you cited exactly one reference that explicitly mentioned murder (Encyclopaedia Britannica) after WWI and the complaint by Ribbentrop (which until properly sourced, could be him complaining about the lack of German-only schools in Polish areas settled mainly with Germans). Please properly source Ribbentrop's complaint and let's see exactly what he was complaining about. As the source stands now, it is just the author's (you) comment, which you know is worthless. Once again, I am not "dodging" them, as I already said I have no problem accepting post-WWI atrocities. The other references were a propaganda book, of which I'm still waiting for you to cite a massacre that happened before Bromberg, and a gruelpropaganda statement by Degrelle that is as worthless as any Holocaust witness testimony, and you know it.

Hannover wrote:Oh please, you have not read the book. I challenge you to prove the information about between-the-wars massacres is wrong. You have not, and cannot it would appear.

I have skimmed through quickly, as I said, and found no mentions of any massacres other than the Bromberg Massacre. Since it was you who linked the book, I assume you have read it, and so it is your job to cite any evidence of any massacres before September 3rd. You know simply linking to a book does not work here, Hannover.

Hannover wrote:the information about between-the-wars massacres

Cite them, don't link to a book.

Hannover wrote:Absolute nonsense. Apparently you do not read what I post. Too bad, and not very good for your position.

Please tell me which source of yours that deals with atrocities committed by the Poles I have forgot to mention:
1. Encyclopaedia Britannica
2. Unsourced complaint by Ribbentrop
3. German propaganda book and its translation
4. Degrelle's ridiculous statement

Of the four, how many are even remotely close to WWII and related to atrocities committed by the Poles, if not two?
(I suppose Hitler's quote of "returning fire" might count, but that is still a case of controversy.)

Hannover wrote:Again, I challenge you to provide proof that the multi-sourced references I gave for mass killing in between-the-wars Poland are fictitious. You seem to be wishing rather than debating.

1. Encyclopaedia Britannica: I accept it as truth.
2. Unsourced complaint by Ribbentrop: Properly source it so we know what he was complaining about.
3. German propaganda book and its translation: Cite any massacre out of it that happened before Bromberg.
4. Degrelle's ridiculous statement: Surely you jest by challenging me to provide proof his statement is fictitious, right? Are we supposed to provide proof the geysers of blood are fictitious too? You know better than that, Hannover.

As it stands, the only "mass killings in between-the-wars" is referenced by Encyclopaedia Britannica where it says "many" were killed after WWI. Could be 10, could be 20, could be 100. Who knows.

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Re: Polish Atrocities against Germans before 1. September 19

Postby Nüziders » 4 years 6 months ago (Sun Jan 13, 2013 2:45 pm)

I'd add the quotes from the Daily Mail and "Die Liga der Grossmacht" are both fakes. There was no Sunday edition of the Daily Mail back then (the date cited is a Sunday), or was there any such newspaper with the title "Die Liga..." I checked Polish titles also.

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Re: Polish Atrocities against Germans before 1. September 19

Postby Hannover » 4 years 6 months ago (Sun Jan 13, 2013 3:55 pm)

Toshiro:
Here's more that you can scream 'ridiculous' to, but cannot refute. Too bad, but you're being overwhelmed and can only resort to emotions.

The first Polish atrocities against Germans took place during the what is called “dritten polnischen Aufstands” (the ‘third Polish uprise’) in Upper Silesia in May and June 1921. (1)


On the fifteenth of May 1927 an anti-German pogrom took place in Rybnik. (2)


Starting from April/May 1939 regularly assaults started taking place, the atrocities were no longer sporadic but the increasing hate-feelings of the Poles started to show. Several months before Germany invaded Poland, the news and radio services in Poland spread the message that; “daß im Kriegsfalle kein einheimischer Feind lebend entrinnen wird”. (3)
- translation:
“In the case of war, no ethnical enemy (meaning the Germans living in Poland) will escape alive.”


Before the outbreak of war, the Poles constructed two concentration camps where the German population was to be brought too after being arrested, and, if we listen to the Polish media, annihilated. One was situated at Polowanie, the other one at Niemcow. (4)

sources:
1. “Die Geschichte der polnischen Nation 1918-1978”, Hans Roos, p. 180.
2. Alfred Bohmann, “Menschen und Grenzen”, p. 38.
3. Peter Aurich, “Der deutsch-polnische September 1939”, p. 48, Theodor Bierschenk, “Die deutsche Volksgruppe in Polen 1934-1939” p. 319
4. Zayas, Alfred M. de/Rabus, Walter: “Die Wehrmacht-Untersuchungsstelle” p. 249

and from the book you have not read:
THE POLISH ATROCITIES AGAINST THE GERMAN MINORITY IN POLAND
pg. 13
Even in the spring of 1939 it became quite clear that the change in Poland's foreign policy was being definitely advanced and guided by two forces. Polish public opinion, influenced by the Government's toleration of anti-German propaganda, was imbued with an unparalleled feeling of hatred against everything German. Any statement or expression pertaining to the daily life of the German minority was considered as an hostile act against the Polish State and in consequence the extermination of everything of German origin was put forward as a national duty. It was evident that the restraint of the German Government towards this degeneration of hatred towards minority Germans was regarded by the Polish authorities as an expression of weakness. This fateful error was the underlying motive for the vehement attacks on Germany which expressed themselves in impassioned demands for the annexation of German territory, and reached their climax in the ridiculous display of megalomania, as displayed in a demand for the River Elbe as a boundary necessary to Polish national requirements. The Polish Government gave a free hand to the perpetrators of such bellicose demonstration of annexation, as well as to the miscreants of acts of violence against the German minority in the Western provinces, who were in their turn aided and abetted by the provincial authorities. The responsibility for this feverish atmosphere was hereby placed on the shoulders of the Polish Government. This finally resulted in moral chaos in towns and in the country, accompanied by indiscriminate murders of thousands of defenceless and innocent minority Germans by Polish soldiers and armed civilians.

and pg 17:
THE POLISH POLICY OF ATROCITY
During the twenty years of Polish domination, Germans in Poland had become used to injury and want. Devoid of every right and protection they were also prepared for their position to become more threatening and subject to more intolerable pressure as the German-Polish relations aggravated. During the last weeks before the outbreak of war, they were under such pressure and their private life so continually watched by Polish spies, that they already scented the danger that was being brought about by the work of agitation, emanating from secret and public Polish sources. Not even the worst pessimist had ever visualized that the wide-spread menaces, attacks, and acts of violence would increase and reach the point of the massacre of men, women, and children, or that these murders would ever reach the gruesome total of over 58,000. One could feel the abysmal hatred that the Poles had for anything German; hatred that was being engendered by an anti-German press, radio and pulpit propaganda. The Warsaw rulers gave proofs daily of their hostile attitude towards any sincere understanding. This manifested itself even down to the subordinate official positions, where a white-hot fanaticism culminated in treating all Germans as spies and suspected enemies of the State. It was known that the Association of the West, rebels, and rifle corps were planning evil, and that Polish Youth organisations, above all the boy scouts, were being systematically trained under military supervision in the use of firearms. Outbursts of racial propaganda could be read in the Polish press; in just the same way the poisoned atmosphere emanating from the excessive provocation of public agitators could be felt more and more every week as it spread and penetrated deeper and deeper amongst the Polish population. The result was that even the more reasonable Polish elements were dragged into the vortex, which swept away any sensible thought or moral feeling towards minority Germans already pursued and tortured. It was apolitical psychosis which enabled every Pole to feel that he might commit any kind of deed, even the most terrible against minority Germans, and without the slightest restraint.

During the last days of August 1939, Germans were openly menaced in villages with the expressions: "Slaughter them off" (1).


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Re: Polish Atrocities against Germans before 1. September 19

Postby Nüziders » 4 years 6 months ago (Sun Jan 13, 2013 4:26 pm)

I find it curious that German titles and being provided but with English-language quotations. This is particularly curious alongside supposedly Polish newspapers presented with German names.

Perhaps we should limit ourselves to the sources we've actually consulted on our own? If we have read a source cited by someone else, perhaps it ought not count?

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Re: Polish Atrocities against Germans before 1. September 19

Postby Toshiro » 4 years 6 months ago (Sun Jan 13, 2013 6:52 pm)

Hannover, I don't know what you mean with me being "overwhelmed and can only resort to emotions," since I've been neutral, rational and factual the entire time. But if calling me so makes you happy...

1. Fine, I accept it. What "atrocities"? What happened? Were people killed?

2. Fine, I accept it. Pogrom? Were people killed?

3. Obviously related to the Goebbels' speech which I quoted, where a total of three people were killed. Also, this is the author's translation (at Axis History Forum) and it is he who used the word "atrocities." The correct wording would be "persecutions" as Goebbels put it. Protests and persecutions are hardly "atrocities," Hannover.
Also, the sources for 3 and 4 are reversed.

4. Too bad you copy-pasted this one, as the author (at Axis History Forum) made a ridiculous mistake (other than mixing up the sources). "Polowanie" and "Niemcow" are not place names. It comes from Polish "polowanie na Niemcow" which literally means "[the] hunt for Germans." The author (at AHF) probably knows zero German, and god knows why decided to write "One was situated at Polowanie, the other one at Niemcow." Furthermore, the expression "polowanie na Niemcow" is related to the Bromberg Massacre, thus making the author's already ridiculous and dubious comment even more ridiculous and dubious. Not to mention the fact that the author himself added (and did not reference) "and, if we listen to the Polish media, annihilated" as this is not in the referenced source. Also, what an atrocity, building a concentration camp(s) (for which there is no evidence) for enemies of the state! :roll:

5. See 3.
"This finally resulted in moral chaos in towns and in the country, accompanied by indiscriminate murders of thousands of defenceless and innocent minority Germans by Polish soldiers and armed civilians." After September 1st. Other than that, persecutions and protests, big deal.

6. Refers to Bromberg and after.
"During the last days of August 1939, Germans were openly menaced in villages with the expressions: "Slaughter them off" (1)."
Sourced as: Mord an Sieg (Sd. Is. Bromberg 819/39), a document issued by the Bromberg Sondergericht (Special Court) which operated from September 9th, 1939 to January 26th, 1945, and in its first months of the German occupation dealt with matters related to the Bromberg Massacre. How very believable that a German propaganda book which tried to justify the attack on Poland actually meant with "During the last days of August 1939" the "last days of August" and not actually September 1st and later! I'm guessing if the document talked about a murder before the Bromberg Massacre, the document is long gone by now, destroyed by the Poles to hide the "fact" that they murdered a German/Germans before September 1st! :D What's far more likely is that it's just a document related to the Bromberg Massacre, but I guess we'll never know until somebody digs up the document. Anyway, the good news it, this is corroborated with the speeches by Goebbels and Hitler which I quoted. Too bad this is all considered propaganda and we lack any evidence to confirm it (court documents and the like).

By the way, I have read both paragraphs when I skimmed through the book, and appropriately commented on the 5th source you gave:
Toshiro wrote:It does, however, mention various anti-German protests and tells about the anti-German sentiment in Poland at the time, which is hardly news.

The sixth I simply ignored after I saw it sourced as "Bromberg 819/39," obviously related to the Bromberg Massacre, and denounced the "during the last days of August" as an obvious distortion of facts for propaganda purposes (read: lies). But you are free to use this as your "evidence." Looks like I haven't missed any other atrocities after all.

So:
1. Encyclopaedia Britannica (in the twenties)
2. Unsourced complaint by Ribbentrop
3. Degrelle's ridiculous statement

And:
4. The third Polish uprise (in the twenties) (What exactly happened? What were the "atrocities"?)
5. Pogrom in Rybnik (in the twenties) (How many died? Did anyone die? Was this an "atrocity"?)
6. Persecutions and protests April/May, corroborated with Goebbels' speech (atrocities?)
7. German propaganda book: Persecutions and protests April/May, corroborated with Goebbels' speech (atrocities?)
8. German propaganda book: "During the last days of August 1939"

And mine:
9. Goebbels' speech
10. Hitler's speech

Not much has changed, Hannover, since 4, 5, 6 and 7 are still open to being classified as "atrocities" or not. Still the same old 4 sources (6 if you count 9 and 10), no. 2 still being unsourced... Still waiting for the "multiple references to mass murders" before September 1st (preferably in the thirties)...

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Re: Polish Atrocities against Germans before 1. September 19

Postby Hannover » 4 years 6 months ago (Sun Jan 13, 2013 7:27 pm)

Toshiro, I'm beginning to find humor in your methods.

You absurdly ask: 'What does 'atrocities' mean?' You're joking, right?.
You absurdly ask: 'What does 'pogrom' mean?' You know very well what 'pogrom' means. You must be joking again.

With the Goebbels speech, which you brought it into the discussion, you first say 'killed' and now you claim 'persecution'. That's on you. Do you have the verbatim German text to the speech in question. I doubt it.

I stand by the sources I gave. IF they are out sequence, so what? And if you want to throw one out, no problem. I have given ample amounts, which you then try Clintonesque wordsmithing of the meaning of 'atrocities' and 'pogrom'. I call that desperate. Funny though.

Then you try to ignore a reference by saying it refers to Bromberg when it clearly refers to events before the beginning of war. You dismiss everything as 'propaganda' and then use propaganda that you prefer. You state: "What's far more likely is that it's just a document related to the Bromberg Massacre". Why should I accept something as "far more likely" just because you say so? IOW, it's just wishful thinking on your part, not based on fact. Your methods lack precision, Toshiro.

And thanks for the summaries. I believe an objective reader will find that you have not truly addressed any of them. Well, you do use the word 'ridiculous' and 'propaganda' a lot.

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Re: Polish Atrocities against Germans before 1. September 19

Postby Hannover » 4 years 6 months ago (Sun Jan 13, 2013 7:44 pm)

Nüziders wrote:I'd add the quotes from the Daily Mail and "Die Liga der Grossmacht" are both fakes. There was no Sunday edition of the Daily Mail back then (the date cited is a Sunday), or was there any such newspaper with the title "Die Liga..." I checked Polish titles also.

Interesting. If so, I retract it as a source. Of course, the reference may be just a day or two off. It happens.

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Re: Polish Atrocities against Germans before 1. September 19

Postby Hannover » 4 years 6 months ago (Sun Jan 13, 2013 7:48 pm)

Nüziders wrote:I find it curious that German titles and being provided but with English-language quotations. This is particularly curious alongside supposedly Polish newspapers presented with German names.

Perhaps we should limit ourselves to the sources we've actually consulted on our own? If we have read a source cited by someone else, perhaps it ought not count?

I gave a very English language source, Encyclopedia Britannica, which is indeed from the twenties. And I see no reason to think atrocities against Germans magically ceased in the 30's, to the contrary. Oh wait, Toshiro will call the Britannica 'propaganda' or 'ridiculous'. And I believe Belgian, Leon Degrelle's writings are published in English.

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Re: Polish Atrocities against Germans before 1. September 19

Postby Haldan » 4 years 6 months ago (Sun Jan 13, 2013 7:52 pm)

I've been checking various discussions on this matter elsewhere on the Web and let me just say that there are some people out there who are doing everything possible to clean away the crimes done against Germans by the Poles. I'm not so sure why, or what the motive behind this would be.
The whole reasoning behind the Poles behaviour against the Germans can probably be understood when reading the essays by Else Löser. They contain quite a lot of useful information on the psyche behind some of this irrational hatred. These essays can be found on Carlos W. Porter's site, i.e "Poland and falsifications of Polish history" and "The Image of the Germans in Polish Literature", see:
http://www.cwporter.com/loeser2.htm [Poland and falsifications of Polish history]
and,
http://www.cwporter.com/image.htm [The Image of the Germans in Polish Literature]

They are quite useful in understanding the underlying nature of all these atrocities.

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Re: Polish Atrocities against Germans before 1. September 19

Postby Hannover » 4 years 6 months ago (Sun Jan 13, 2013 8:11 pm)

Another beauty:
Full details on Polish military provocations and repression of minorities in defiance of Hitler's perfectly reasonable negotiation and treaty offers are contained in a definitive and very readable new book,
DER KRIEG, DER VIELE VÄTER HATTE: Der lange Anlauf zum zweiten Weltkrieg, by retired Major General Gerd Schulze-Rhonhof.

Image

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Re: Polish Atrocities against Germans before 1. September 19

Postby Toshiro » 4 years 6 months ago (Sun Jan 13, 2013 8:38 pm)

Hannover wrote:Toshiro, I'm beginning to find humor in your methods.

Thanks, I find tremendous humour in your methods as well.

Very well, I'll accept the Pogrom as an atrocity. We still don't know the extent of it; was it 10 people or more? Did anyone die?

As we don't have any idea what happened at the "third Polish uprise," we can only speculate. My guess would be simple protests. Big deal.

Hannover wrote:With the Goebbels speech, which you brought it into the discussion, you first say 'killed' and now you claim 'persecution'. That's on you. Do you have the verbatim German text to the speech in question. I doubt it.

Have you read the quote? He mentions various persecutions, and that two people died on May 15th in Lodsch and one on May 21st in Kalthof. Now, if you want to call persecutions and protests in which a total of three people died (who knows from what reason? Perhaps they started the fight?) "atrocities," that is a sign of a man desperately trying to vilify the Poles.

Hannover wrote:I call that desperate. Funny though.

Funny, I find your calling of mere protests as "atrocities" desperate, and not in the slightest funny.

Hannover wrote:Then you try to ignore a reference by saying it refers to Bromberg when it clearly refers to events before the beginning of war.

Oh really? So you have seen the actual document and know its contents? That's what I thought. It's just a coincidence that's it's referenced as "Bromberg" and only referenced in a single propaganda book. You're free to believe that.

Hannover wrote:You dismiss everything as 'propaganda' and then use propaganda that you prefer. You state: "What's far more likely is that it's just a document related to the Bromberg Massacre". Why should I accept something as "far more likely" just because you say so? IOW, it's just wishful thinking on your part, not based on fact. Your methods lack precision, Toshiro.

You are right, Hannover. Goebbels, Minister of Propaganda, and Hitler never lied for propaganda purposes. All books published by the Germans contain 100% truth and zero propaganda. :roll: You are free to believe your 58,000 killed nonsense and that the propaganda book is factual, but seriously, get real.

Hannover wrote:And I see no reason to think atrocities against Germans magically ceased in the 30's, to the contrary.

You've already said: "I also believe there were numerous, non-German newspapers which had information about the atrocities." Put up, or shut up. You know the rules.

Hannover wrote:Oh wait, Toshiro will call the Britannica 'propaganda' or 'ridiculous'. And I believe Belgian, Leon Degrelle's writings are published in English.

How many times must I repeat that I "accept" the Britannica quote and any other atrocities after WWI? Yes, please cite Leon Degrelle's writings; It'd be interesting of hearing his personal eyewitness accounts of pre-war atrocities which he saw all the way from Belgium. :roll:

Hannover wrote:Another beauty:
Full details on Polish military provocations and repression of minorities in defiance of Hitler's perfectly reasonable negotiation and treaty offers are contained in a definitive and very readable new book,
DER KRIEG, DER VIELE VÄTER HATTE: Der lange Anlauf zum zweiten Weltkrieg, by retired Major General Gerd Schulze-Rhonhof.

Image

So this is a discussion where one simply posts names of books? Should I find some biased books that I haven't read and post them here? Cite the book and any sourced "atrocities" you find within it, not the title of the book. :roll:

Haldan wrote:I've been checking various discussions on this matter elsewhere on the Web and let me just say that there are some people out there who are doing everything possible to clean away the crimes done against Germans by the Poles. I'm not so sure why, or what the motive behind this would be.
The whole reasoning behind the Poles behaviour against the Germans can probably be understood when reading the essays by Else Löser. They contain quite a lot of useful information on the psyche behind some of this irrational hatred. These essays can be found on Carlos W. Porter's site, i.e "Poland and falsifications of Polish history" and "The Image of the Germans in Polish Literature", see:
http://www.cwporter.com/loeser2.htm [Poland and falsifications of Polish history]
and,
http://www.cwporter.com/image.htm [The Image of the Germans in Polish Literature]

They are quite useful in understanding the underlying nature of all these atrocities.

-haldan

Funny, there are "some" people out there who are doing everything possible to blame the Poles and accuse them of being mindless aggressors against innocent Germans all the time. I'm not so sure why, or what the motive behind this would be. :roll:
By the way, "Moderator," this post by Haldan is offtopic much as my previously deleted posts were offtopic, as it's dealing with happenings going all the way back to the Middle Ages. So, let's be fair and remove this post, shall we? We are trying to be fair here, right? Or is it offtopic only when dealing with the Polish side of the story?


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