Who started bombing civilians first:Germany or Great Britain

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Re: Who started bombing civilians first:Germany or Great Bri

Postby Hannover » 2 years 8 months ago (Wed Jul 30, 2014 10:55 am)

Nessie, in his / her haste curiously avoided:

David Irving, http://www.fpp.co.uk/Letters/History_07 ... 90707.html :
"The bombing of Warsaw and Rotterdam were no precedents for the RAF's saturation bombing campaign; both cities were attacked for military tactical reasons, as is well established in the records. Winston Churchill in his six-volume history The Second World War subsequently claimed that "thirty thousand civilians" were killed in the Rotterdam raid on May 14, 1940. The city officials told me the actual figure was around 900, mostly from fires caused by the blazing margarine factory."
and:
Hannover wrote:See this recent thread:
new book: 'Britain 1st to bomb civilians indiscriminately '
and excerpted from another thread:
Hannover wrote:More on the British initiation of terror bombings of civilians here:
Hannover @ banning political parties / more attacks on German democracy
With a list of German towns, cities where the civilian population was illegally terror bombed long before German retaliation.

- Hannover

excerpts:
Hannover wrote: http://www.fpp.co.uk/History/Churchill/ ... plies.html

..........the British, by their own admission, initiated unrestricted bombing of civilian areas ought to merit for them membership in the select society of "war criminals." The unbelieving reader need only consult the testimony of the British officials J. M. Spaight and Sir Arthur Harris, for incontrovertible proof of this charge.99 A decision of the British Air Ministry made on May 11, 1940, to attack targets in Western Germany instituted the practice of bombing purely civilian objectives. This "epoch-making event," as F. J. P. Veale correctly describes it, marked an ominous departure from the rule that hostilities are to be limited to operations against enemy military forces alone.100 Spaight, former Principal Secretary of the Air Ministry, makes the following amazing comment on the decision of May 11, 1940:
Because we were doubtful about the psychological effect of propagandist distortion of the truth that it was we who started the strategic bombing offensive, we have shrunk from giving our great decision of May 11, 1940, the publicity it deserves. That surely was a mistake. It was a splendid decision.101
But the "great decision," the "splendid decision" of May 11, 1940, which was ultimately to cost the lives of millions, including thousands of Mr. Spaight's own countrymen, was to have an even more grisly sequel, for, according to Sir Charles Snow who had charge of selecting scientific personnel for war research in Great Britain in World War II, F. A. Lindemann, a Cabinet member and confidant of Churchill, produced in early 1942 a remarkable Cabinet paper on the subject of the strategic bombing of Germany:
It described, in quantitative terms, the effect on Germany of a British bombing offensive in the next eighteen months (approximately March 1942-September 1943). The paper laid down a strategic policy. The bombing must be directed essentially against German working-class houses. Middle-class houses have too much space round them, and so are bound to waste bombs ...102
One wonders if it was the cultivated humanitarianism inherent in this decision to assure the death of more working class Germans per bomb which entitled the Allies, and in particular the British, to sit in moral judgment on German leaders at Nuremberg in 1946!
99. J. M. Spaight, Bombing Vindicated (London: Geoffrey Bles, Ltd., 1944) and Sir Arthur Harris, bomber Offensive (London: Collins, 1947).
100. F. J. P. Veale, Advance to Barbarism (Apppleton: C. C. Nelson Publishing Company, 1953), p. 122.
101. Spaight, op. cit., p. 7.
102. C. P. Snow, Science and Government (Cambridge: Harvard University Press, 1961), p. 48.

Letter to PBS on fraudulent 'documentary' about the 'Blitz'

Dr. A.R. WESSERLE
16 March 1981
PBS Television "The Blitz"

Sirs:

Rarely have I come across a television broadcast more vicious in intent and more warped in execution than your recent "Blitz on Britain." As a survivor of the mass air raid executed against my native city of Prague, Bohemia, on the Christian Holy Day of Palm Sunday, 1945, by the Anglo-American strategic bomber force - a raid that maimed or murdered thousands a few seconds before the conclusion of the Second World War - I say this:

1. There can be no comparison between the brutality of the Anglo-American bomber offensive, on one hand, and the minimality of the German-Italian efforts, on the other. As the commander of the British strategic air offensive, Air Marshal Sir Arthur Harris shows in his Bomber Offensive (Macmillan, New York, 1947) 23 German cities had more than 60 percent of their built-up area destroyed; 46 had half of it destroyed. 31 communities had more than 500 acres obliterated: Berlin, 6427 acres: Hamburg, 6200 acres; Duesseldorf, 2003; Cologne (through air attack), 1994. By contrast, the three favorite targets of the Luftwaffe: London, Plymouth and Coventry, had 600 acres, 400, and just over 100 acres destroyed.

2. Anglo-American strategic bombers, according to official sources of the West German government in 1962, dropped 2,690,000 metric tons of bombs on Continental Europe; 1,350,000 tons were dropped on Germany within its 1937 boundaries; 180,000 tons on Austria and the Balkans; 590,000 tons on France; 370,000 tons on Italy; and 200,000 tons on miscellaneous targets such as Bohemia, Slovakia and Poland. By contrast, Germany dropped a total of 74,172 tons of bombs as well as V-1 and V-2 rockets and "buzz bombs" on Britain - five percent of what the Anglo-Saxons rained down on Germany. The Federal German Government has established the minimum count - not an estimate - of 635,000 German civilians were killed in France, Italy, Rumania, Hungary, Czecheslovakia, and elsewhere.

3. Both Germany and Britain initiated air raids on naval and military targets as of 3 September 1939. However, when the British attacks on port installations in Northern Germany ended in disaster, with a devastating majority of bombers downed - the Battle of the German Bight - Britain switched over to less costly night air raids on civilian targets such as Berlin and the Ruhr industrial region. By contrast, Germany replied in kind only in the winter months of 1940/41, a year later. Observers indubitably British, such as the late Labour Minister Crossman, the scientist and writer C.P. Snow, and the Earl of Birkenhead, have demonstrated that it was not Germany but Britain that, after May, 1940, unleashed an official policy of unrestricted and unlimited raids on civilian populations under its new Prime Minister, Winston Churchill, and his science advisor, Dr. Lindemann. Professor Lindemann, the later Viscount Cherwell, coolly calculated that, by using a force of 10,000 heavy bombers to attack and destroy the 58 largest German cities, one-third of the population of Germany would be "de-housed." The assumption, of course, also was that out of those 25-27 million homeless at least ten percent - 2.5 to 3 million people - would be killed. On this score alone, Winston Churchill and his advisors deserve to rank among the maddest mass murderers in history. In fact, as West German records show, 131 German towns were hit by heavy strategic raids. Only the courage of the Luftwaffe pilots, the effectiveness of the air defense network and the strength of the fire fighting organization worked together to prevent a bloodbath to the extent envisioned by the Prime Minister.

4. Blood baths did occur when conditions were right. When the Anglo-American bombing policy reached its first grand climax in a raid on Hamburg that stretched over several days and nights in July, 1943, a minimum of 40,000 to 50,000 civilians burned to death. With the defensive power of the Reich worn down in the second half of 1944 and in 1945, the Anglo-Saxons indulged in ever more massive extermination raids against Europe. Communities of little or no military value, even if attacked previously, were now pulverized, preferably under conditions of the utmost horror. Christian holy days, and dates and sites of famous art festivals were select occasions for raids. Many of the most beautiful cities of Europe and the world were systematically pounded into nothingness, often during the last weeks of the war, among them: Wuerzburg, Hildesheim, Darmstadt, Kassel, Nürnberg, Braunschweig. Little Pforzheim in south-west Germany had 17,000 people killed. Dresden, one of the great art centers and in 1945 a refuge for perhaps a million civilians, was decimated with the loss of at least 100,000 souls. Europe from Monte Cassino to Luebeck and Rostock on the Baltic, from Caen and Lisieux in France to Pilsen, Prague, Bruenn, Budapest and Bucharest reeled under the barbaric blows of the bombers.

5. Nor did the extermination raids stop with Europe. Cigar-chomping General Curtis LeMay demonstrated in. the Far East that record kills could be achieved without resort to atomic weapons. By applying the lessons learned in Europe to the wooden architecture of the Asian mainland and Japan he raised "fire storms" which surpassed even those of Hamburg, n Japanese civilians were killed through bombing. Millions of others fell victim to it, from Mukden, Manchuria, to Rangoon, Burma. It goes without saying that LeMay and his colleagues could not have carried out their campaigns of mass annihilation without the backing of the highest political leaders in the land. In fact, the United States Government had placed orders for the immediate development of four-engined, superheavy, very-long-range bombers (the XB 15, the B-17, the XB 19, the B-24 and the B-29) starting in 1934. Thus, the Roosevelt Administration had begun to lay plans for offensive, strategic, global war back in 1933, the year of its inception. With the later exception of Britain, none of the other "large" powers followed suit: neither France, Italy and Germany, nor Soviet Russia and Japan the latter with extensive holdings in the Pacific. These are sobering facts. PBS, with its record of fine programming, has much to lose if it insists on presenting biassed reports such as "Blitz on Britain" or "UXB." If you care to tap the unplumbed depths of sentimentality, envy and hatred, start a comic strip. In the meantime, we'll change channels.
Give poor Alistair Cooke, who has been mightily discomfited of late, a much-needed respite.

Sincerely, Dr. A.R. Wesserle

Source: Reprinted from The Journal of Historical Review, vol. 2, no. 4, pp. 381-384.

In addition:
“As early as 1953 H.M. Stationary Office published the first volume of a work ‘The Royal Air Force’, 1939-1945 entitled ‘The Fight at Odds’, a book described as “officially commissioned and based throughout on official documents which had been read and approved by the Air Ministry Historical Branch.” The author , Mr. Dennis Richards, states plainly the destruction of oil plants and factories was only a secondary purpose of the British air attacks on Germany which began in May 1940. The primary purpose of these raids was to goad the Germans into undertaking reprisal raids of a similar character on Britain. Such raids would arouse intense indignation in Britain against Germany and so create a war psychosis without which it is impossible to carry on a modern war. Mr Dennis Richards writes: “If the Royal Air Force raided the Ruhr, destroying oil plants with it’s most accurately placed bombs and urban property with those that went astray, the outcry for retalliation against Britain might prove too strong for the German generals to resist. The attack on the Ruhr, in other words, was an informal invitation to the Luftwaffe to bomb London “. p. 122

This passage merely confirmed what Mr. Spaight had so incautiously disclosed in 1944 in his by then forgotten book ‘Bombing Vindicated’. The popular belief that Hitler started unrestricted bombing still persisted and is, in fact, widely held at present day.

The third and last phase of the British air offensive against Germany began in March 1942 with the adoption of the Lindemann Plan by the British War Cabinet, and continued until the end of the war in May, 1945. The bombing during this period was not, as the Germans complained, indiscriminate. On the contrary, it was concentrated on working-class houses because, as professor Lindemann maintained, a higher percentage of bloodshed per ton of explosives dropped could be expected from bombing houses built close together, rather than by bombing higher class houses surrounded by gardens.”

source: ‘Advance to Barbarism - the Development of Total Warfare’, by F.J.P. Veale, p.184-185
and:
A big reason why the 'Allies' need the 'holocaust' storyline
and:
Hannover wrote:Wielun and the numbers alleged in the Wiki are pure propaganda.
It killed an estimated 1,300 civilians, injured hundreds more and destroyed 90 percent of the town centre. There were no military targets of any importance in the area.[1]
Complete nonsense.
Look at the picture they provide, the actual damage was fairly minimal. Wielun was a military target and there was some minimal collateral damage, but clearly not an intentional civilian target.
Image
Polish historian Jerzy B. Cynk, author of The Polish Air Force at War. The official history 1939-1943, wrote about the events: "Numerous direct support missions were also flown, with the heaviest attacks directed against the Polish cavalry and troop concentrations at Wielun."[9]

At 13:00 a German dive bomber wing, I./StG 2 led by Major Oskar Dinort via Nieder-Ellguth, were directed against this unit, followed a few hours later by Schwarzkopff with sixty Ju 87 Stukas of I./Sturzkampfgeschwader 77[8] Weather conditions were unfavourable during the day, with a visibility of only one kilometre and a practically closed layer of fog at 50 metres altitude.[10] Fog, mist and poor visibility thwarted many of the Luftwaffe's sorties planned for the morning of the first day of the invasion.[10] The dive bombers, facing intense anti aircraft fire, inflicted heavy losses on the Polish cavalry, and the advance was turned into a rout by 90 Stukas.[8] On their return home, four of the German Junkers Ju 87 bombers were shot down by the Polish 36 Academic Legion Infantry Regiment stationed nearby.[8] Three waves of attacks were carried out during the day.[8] The town was captured by the German Army on the first day of the invasion.[8]
Just another fabrication that is easily debunked.

- Hannover
- Hannover


If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Re: Who started bombing civilians first:Germany or Great Bri

Postby Nessie. » 2 years 8 months ago (Wed Jul 30, 2014 3:35 pm)

Contrary to what David Irvin stated, saturation bombing had a military tactical theory behind it. It was believed that it would cause a collapse in morale, civil unrest and troops wanting to return to their families knowing they were under attack. It was used to tie up resources in defending the cities.

It was also used to try and hit communication lines and transportation networks from railway stations to harbours in the knowledge that bombing was not very accurate. It was also aimed at destroying industry and business. For Churchill it was a means of showing the British people that the Nazis were not going to left to their own devices in Europe and that their bombing raids on cities would not go unpunished. Ultimately it was believed the other could be bombed into submission.

That all took place because the Nazis were using exactly those tactics when they started bombing civilians in Guernica and then Poland.

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Re: Who started bombing civilians first:Germany or Great Bri

Postby Hannover » 2 years 8 months ago (Wed Jul 30, 2014 4:14 pm)

Nessie. wrote:Contrary to what David Irvin stated, saturation bombing had a military tactical theory behind it. It was believed that it would cause a collapse in morale, civil unrest and troops wanting to return to their families knowing they were under attack. It was used to tie up resources in defending the cities.

It was also used to try and hit communication lines and transportation networks from railway stations to harbours in the knowledge that bombing was not very accurate. It was also aimed at destroying industry and business. For Churchill it was a means of showing the British people that the Nazis were not going to left to their own devices in Europe and that their bombing raids on cities would not go unpunished. Ultimately it was believed the other could be bombed into submission.

That all took place because the Nazis were using exactly those tactics when they started bombing civilians in Guernica and then Poland.
Under international law one could not intentionally bomb civilian targets, PERIOD. Again, I have shown that the British were first and did it intentionally. You ignored:
The unbelieving reader need only consult the testimony of the British officials J. M. Spaight and Sir Arthur Harris, for incontrovertible proof of this charge.99 A decision of the British Air Ministry made on May 11, 1940, to attack targets in Western Germany instituted the practice of bombing purely civilian objectives.
You ignored the new book which stated:
Britain 1st to bomb civilians indiscriminately
So much for your "tactical theory" excuse, Nessie. Ignoring posted information is not real debate.

Guernica, by someone who has actually researched the event. http://www.fpp.co.uk/History/General/Gu ... index.html
The Guernica controversy

[No contemporary photographs are known to exist of air raid damage in Guernica]

ON APRIL 26, 1937 a handful of planes of the "Condor Legion" carried out sporadic air attacks on the Basque town of Guernica, to deny an important river crossing to the retreating Republican (Communist) forces of the Spanish government. Ninety-eight people died.

The Condor Legion was a squadron of airforce "volunteers" provided by Hitler's Luftwaffe to the insurgents fighting under General Francisco Franco.

The air raid on Guernica became a centerpiece of communist and Left-wing propaganda against Hitler and Mussolini. True, reporters later found the town center devastated, but by whom? By the bombs, or after the raid by withdrawing Communists armed with dynamite by the regions' miners?

Reporting on a visit to Guernica, The Times Military Correspondent stated on May 5, 1937:

"That Guernica after a week's bombardment by aircraft and artillery should not have shown signs of fire supports the Nationalist contention that aircraft were not responsible for the burning of this town, which was bombed intermittently for a period of two hours. In Guernica few fragments of bombs have been recovered, the façades of buildings still standing are unmarked, and the few craters I inspected were larger than anything hitherto made by a bomb in Spain. From their position it is a fair inference that these craters were caused by exploding mines which were unscientifically laid to cut roads."

A further unidentified source echoed this: "What actually happened was that industrial Basques, miners from Asturias, experts in explosives, fired and dynamited the town to a prearranged plan. Two French artillery officers, veterans of World War One inspected the town when Franco's troops entered. What they saw was, they said, largely the result of arson and incendiarism. Petrol had been largely used, plus dynamite. Each alleged 'bomb' crater coincided with a sewer-manhole on the street, and where there had been no sewers there had been no 'bombs.'"

And Sir Arnold Wilson, Conservative Member of Parliament for Hitchin, Hertfordshire, wrote to The Observer after a visit to Guernica, on October 3, 1937: There was no evidence of damage from aerial bombardment, he said, but "most if not all of the damage was caused by willful incendiarism and such is the verdict of the inhabitants." Sir Arnold was convinced that Guernica was a "put-up job," a Red atrocity-story calculated to recoil on Franco and the Germans.

Thousands were said to have been killed by the bombs.[See e.g., Storia Illustrata, Italy, Oct 1966: "1,654 died, 889 injured"]. This version of history - no surprises here - has been uncritically adopted ever since by conformist historians who carried out no original research. The Spanish artist Pablo Picasso, a Communist multi-millionaire, commemorated the raid in a famous propaganda painting titled "Guernica". It is on display in the United Nations building, and the original and sketches are displayed in a gallery in Madrid.

Closer examination reveals the Picasso painting to be a surrealist depiction of a bullfight; his first sketches for it are found in notebooks dating back over one year before the raid.

How many did actually die in Guernica?

THE conformists' narrative of events is open to question, as British historian David Irving found when he visited the town thirty years after the raid, researching for his book Guernica to Vietnam; he spoke with survivors and city officials, and checked local newspaper files [April 27] [27 again] [28] [29] and cemetery records [right] [register page 1] [2] [3] [4] [5] [6].

Image

In 1987 he wrote a letter to The Daily Telegraph briefly reporting what he had found.

In brief, the local registry of births and deaths lists fewer than one hundred deaths from the air raid (most of them killed in one incident in a shelter in a local asylum, the Hospital-Asilo Calzada); bad enough. It will serve to put things in perspective if we show that the local Communist newspaper Euzkadi Roja, publishing a report on the raid on April 28, 1937, included a list of names of those few injured in the attack.

We would not have expected such a list to appear in the press after the later raids on London, Tokyo, or Dresden; in the two-week Israeli offensive in Gaza in January 2008, 40,000 Palestinians were injured and 1,300 killed.

A READER writes, Friday, January 30, 2009:

Mr. Irving, I recall this was discussed by Luis Bolin in his memoir of the Spanish Civil War, Spain: the Vital Years. He was the pilot who flew General Franco to Spain at the start of the war. His account supports the position you are defending.
Guernica, a military target. http://www.fpp.co.uk/History/General/Gu ... _1967.html :
Note on an Interview with the Mayor (Alcalde) of Guernica, [Augusto Unceta Azpiri] at his office in Guernica, Spain, on 11 May 1967.

The bombardment of Guernica started at about 4 p.m. on 26 April 1937. Most of the bombs were incendiaries. The aircraft came from Victoria, crossing the mountain called Orz. The bells were rung as a warning, and they rang again before the bombs dropped, and the siren on the Arms Factory sounded. The bombs were dropped from about 4 to about 7.30 p.m. The aircraft were Junkers, about twenty in number. They came over three at a time. A hundred people were killed as a result.

The 26 of April 1937 was a market day, but as people had some presentiment about what was going to happen there was little market activity that day. The Nationalist aircraft were firing with machine guns. The fires in the town started at 7.30 p.m. and lasted two days. Everything was destroyed except la Casa de Juntas, the school and several other houses round that way. In the Hospital 33 died as a result of only one bomb. One part of it was destroyed. Everybody left immediately to the small villages called aldeas or to Bilbao. Some people came back after four days and saw the dead people still in a shelter (refugio): this had been built in a narrow road of pine logs and sandbags (sacs de terreros). Twenty people died in it. They were buried ten or fifteen days later

The people just had no means of defence. The village was 90 per destroyed. As a result of one bomb dropped there was a crater 7 or 8 meters in diameter (an H.E. bomb).

There is no proof that people who lived in the village set fire to the manholes or put bombs in them, after the raid. But one eye-witness who is now Chief of the Archives saw a man spraying some kind of liquid on the ground, and he thought that man might have been starting fires with it. The eye-witness concerned is Sr. Sesmero.

There were 4,000 inhabitants in Guernica at the time. The Communists had wanted to blow up the bridge of Renteria, giving access to Guernica. They dropped three explosive bombs, of which one hit

Renteria and the other on the spot where the Traffic Police were. There were nine planes, Junkers 52. Guernica was a military objective.

[The Chief of Archives of Guernica, Sr Sesmero, told me that he saw someone from the town set fire to mines after the bombardment but he was not sure who it was, or whether that caused the explosion.]


Maria Pilar Irving.

and: http://www.fpp.co.uk/Letters/History/Craigie131002.html
David Irving replies:

SO LONG as I have my arms tied behind my back -- I am not invited to a free debate with these geniuses --, there's not much I can do about them at this range; none of them so afr as I know, and certainly not the indolent Mr Brendon, has looked at the German archives or spoken to the German and Spanish generals, let alone visited Guernica to investigate on the spot with city officials as we did in the 1970s. For my references on Guernica, I read the private diary of the later Field Marshal Wolfram von Richthofen, who headed the Legion Kondor (his widow Jutta made it available to me), and years earlier we visited Guernica, and checked the city archives and newspaper files: the local anti-Franco newspaper after the air raid listed the names of the 30 injured, which gives an idea of the size of the actual death toll. After checking hospital and mortuary records we concluded that 98 had died, most of them in one incident where a German bomb struck an asylum. This does not accord very well however with the communist, anti-Franco legend that was put around immediately after the event.

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Re: Who started bombing civilians first:Germany or Great Bri

Postby k0nsl » 2 years 8 months ago (Wed Jul 30, 2014 6:17 pm)

Nessie. wrote:It was believed that it would cause a collapse in morale, civil unrest and troops wanting to return to their families knowing they were under attack. It was used to tie up resources in defending the cities. .


Saturation bombing was a failure:

One source on this is John Kenneth Galbraith, who was an official expert on strategic bombing, he drew up an official report on it for the US government after the war, and one of his conclusions was not only that, but that the mass bombings of population centres actually helped the German war effort because everything bombed was of no importance, when the British bombed all the restaurants and hotels the workers all went to work in the armaments industries. Many writers have remarked on this, strategic bombing was a failure. Another source is C.P. Snow, SCIENCE AND GOVERNMENT.

Source: https://k0nsl.org/blog/responses/i-wond ... ace-lover/


-k0nsl

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Re: Who started bombing civilians first:Germany or Great Bri

Postby Nessie. » 2 years 8 months ago (Thu Jul 31, 2014 1:48 pm)

k0nsl wrote:.....

Saturation bombing was a failure.....

-k0nsl


Very true and the controversy about its use during WWII is most clearly exhibited by it taking until 2012 before a memorial was placed for those who died flying the bombing raids.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RAF_Bomber ... d_Memorial

"The controversy over the tactics employed by RAF Bomber Command during the Second World War meant that an official memorial to the aircrews had been delayed for many years. Despite describing bombers as "the means of victory" in 1940, British prime minister Winston Churchill did not mention Bomber Command in his speech at the end of the war."

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Re: Who started bombing civilians first:Germany or Great Bri

Postby Hektor » 2 years 3 months ago (Fri Jan 02, 2015 1:17 pm)

Mkk wrote:I have done further research into this and have changed my above opinion.

In general - it was Germany. They bombed numerous targets in Poland, such as Frampol, which didnt have much military significance.

Between Britain and Germany - it was Germany. The UK did attack some targets from May 1940 on in which civilians were killed, but this was not intentional. Bombing accuracy was very poor at that time. The original documents only mention military targets:
...

I think "Purpose" is the key question here. A target may objectively not have had a lot of military significance, yet the subjectively available evidence at the moment before an attack may have told otherwise. It should be noted that the military has a resource shortage and rationally select targets whose bombing has got military value.

Strategic bombing, the bombing of residential areas in order to kill civilians and destroy civilian infrastructure, is however a completely different ball game.

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Re: Who started bombing civilians first:Germany or Great Bri

Postby Barrington James » 2 years 3 months ago (Fri Jan 02, 2015 2:25 pm)

The significant difference between the British bombing and the German initial bombing was two fold. First , Churchill started bombing military targets in Germany the day after he became PM , which was , of course, the long planned intention of the British. After all the British began to build city bombers almost immediately after WW1 for they knew they would go to war against Germany as soon as they had an excuse to do so... Their intention in WW1 and WW2 was to destroy Germany...their great rival for world trade and services. And two, the British tactics were to destroy the German worker in his home not to blow up the Germany industries that they had planned on using after the war....as the Russians ended up doing. The Germans, on the other hand , used their dive bombers to support their troops. Germany had no four engine city bombers. Consequently their two engine planes had pay loads ( as far as I can find) of less than three thousand pounds. Some British bombers- the Lancaster- had pay loads of twenty thousand pounds. Hitler did not bomb non military targets in England until six weeks after Churchill had bombed cities in Germany. He kept hoping ( foolishly ) that he could somehow stop the war if he did not attack English cities. Read David Irving.
You can fool too many of the people most of the time.

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Re: Who started bombing civilians first:Germany or Great Britain

Postby Chesters » 1 year 9 months ago (Sat Jul 11, 2015 1:56 am)

Lots of hairs being split over the definition of targets.
I think Germany's strategy was well defined before WW 2 in Spain with the bombing of Guernica.

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Re: Who started bombing civilians first:Germany or Great Britain

Postby Hannover » 1 year 9 months ago (Sat Jul 11, 2015 6:38 am)

Chesters wrote:Lots of hairs being split over the definition of targets.
I think Germany's strategy was well defined before WW 2 in Spain with the bombing of Guernica.

Hello, I'm afraid you have been indoctrinated and offer little in the way of debate.
The communist created Guernica propaganda doesn't stand up to inquiry.
On April 26, 1937, nine German planes - three flights of three Junkers 52's - attacked the Basque town of Guernica to cut the road junction northwest of the town. "We badly need a success against the enemy personnel and equipment," Colonel von Richthofen, commanding the air-force contingent, wrote in his diary. "Vigón [the Spanish ground commander] agrees to push his troops forward to all roads south of Guernica. If we pull this off, we'll have the enemy in the bag." Tiny though the bomb load was - the planes carried only nine bombs of 250 kilos and 114 of fifty kilos - the little town was wrecked. "As our first Junkers arrived," wrote Richthofen in some puzzlement, "there was smoke everywhere.... nobody could see any roads or bridges or targets in the outskirts, so they just dumped their bombs on the center." Afterward, the mystery was partially explained, when townspeople showed him evidence that fleeing Asturian miners had liberally dynamited entire streets of buildings to halt the Nationalist advance. "The Reds," Richthofen recorded after touring the damaged town, "torched ministries, public buildings, and private houses simply by tossing gasoline cans into the ground floors." Most of Guernica's five thousand inhabitants had already left, but, the Luftwaffe colonel learned, "a few were killed." This author (David Irving) carried out investigations in the town records that revealed that some ninety people had been killed, most of them in two incidents as bombs hit a primitive shelter and a mental hospital. The Communists' own newspaper published a list of the injured, totaling thirty-two names. Since "Guernica" - symbolized by the Pablo Picasso painting - would ever after be chalked up as an atrocity against Göring's name, these figures are worth reporting.

Note: Picasso's art notebooks show that he had begun sketches for the painting - depicting in fact a bullfight - months before the air raid.

Source: Göring, a biography (by David Irving)

- Hannover
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Re: Who started bombing civilians first:Germany or Great Britain

Postby georgesmiley » 1 year 9 months ago (Sun Jul 12, 2015 9:43 am)

According the Guardian - Germany was the first to use antipersonnel bombs (with delayed fuses) - This website confirms that these munitions were part of the LW arsenal

http://www.warbirdsresourcegroup.org/LRG/sd2.htm

Is this an accurate report? - Did the Allies also use such bombs and when? I hope this post isnt against forum guidelines - I have no POV here - looking for answers (which i trust will include links or references)

Article:

http://www.theguardian.com/uk/the-northerner/2013/jun/21/butterfly-bombs-luftwaffe-cleethorpes-grimsby

n the summer of 1943, scores in Grimsby and Cleethorpes were killed by the German SD2, or butterfly bomb. Seventy years on, James Rogers sheds some light on one of WWII's lesser-known chapters

It was due to the sheer destructive efficiency of the Luftwaffe air raids on the Grimsby and the Humber region that the government often censored the details of death and injury that occurred there.

Instead, in an attempt to keep morale high – and the enemy unaware of their success – the Home Office ordered that "nothing must leak out". Thus, a mere footnote was often placed in the national papers stating that a 'north east coast town' had been bombed.

It is for this very same reason that to this day few people know of the terror and chaos caused by a new type of bomb that landed in various towns across the country during the second world war.

The first use of these new bombs was on Monday 14 June 1943 when a plague of butterflies landed on Grimsby and Cleethorpes causing terror, chaos and death.

These butterflies were of course the new 'butterfly bombs', or Sprengbombe Dickwandig 2kg (SD2), which were the first ever type of anti-personnel cluster bomb (a bomb specifically intended to kill and maim people, as opposed to buildings or vehicle) to be developed.

Yet it was two key features that made these new cluster bombs so deadly. First, they had rotating wings to slow them and also act as hooks to hang on trees and gutters. Second, they could be armed with one of three fuses: these were the impact fuse, delay fuse and anti-disturbance fuse. When deployed together in a precise and methodical order – such as in Grimsby and Cleethorpes in 1943 – they caused the maximum amount of terror, chaos and death.

The first air raid started at 1.43am. First, high explosive bombs shook the region and incendiaries burned. Vast swaths of fire engulfed the town and many heroic wardens, firefighters and police officers were drawn out into the streets.

It was no coincidence that at this moment the Luftwaffe dropped an estimated 3,000 of the indiscriminate, unpredictable and deadly butterfly bombs that sashayed down silently.

Those armed with an impact fuse made their presence known, exploding as they hit the ground and killed or maimed all in their reach. This caused even more people, such as ambulance crews, military personnel and the men and women of the region to flood the streets and do what they could to assist.

Again not by chance but by intent, the butterflies armed with a delay fuse started to detonate intermittently, causing further death, injury and terror to those who had come to help. Yet this was not the end of the horror.

Unfortunately, more death and destruction was to come that night and over the days, weeks, months and years that followed, as many of the butterflies were armed with an anti-disturbance fuse. This meant they effectively became landmines which could simply lie in wait for their victim.

Very quickly Grimsby became "virtually paralysed" and at "an utter standstill" as the butterfly bomb's symbolic and actual power caused people to live in terror. Many were unable to sleep, instead lying awake wondering when they or their loved ones might fall victim to the butterflies that lay in wait.

Consequently, the pandemonium and terror that these bombs caused led to a public demand for each property in the region to be searched. As a result, a colossal hunt for the butterflies began on 19 June 1943 and consisted of over 10,000 personnel.

However, despite their best efforts, by the time the search was declared complete on 9 July, 114 people has been killed across the region. Staggeringly, this figure equates to over half of all those who lost their lives in the Grimsby area during 37 raids over five years.

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Hektor
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Re: Who started bombing civilians first:Germany or Great Bri

Postby Hektor » 2 months 2 days ago (Sun Feb 19, 2017 12:04 am)

Nessie. wrote:...
So, were the towns and cities of Guernica, Warsaw, Wieluri, Frampol, Kamieniec, Lyons, Rotterdamn and Belgrade all defended when the Nazis bombed them? If so how?

Yes , they were. They were either operational area or had specific military targets.

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Re: Who started bombing civilians first:Germany or Great Britain

Postby Mortimer » 1 month 2 weeks ago (Fri Mar 10, 2017 2:08 am)

The following link is to an article from The Barnes Review blog which has a quote from Churchill -"I do not want to receive any suggestions how we can destroy militarily important targets in Dresden's hinterland, I want to get suggestions how we can fry 600 000 refugees from Breslau in Dresden".
It also demonstrates how Warsaw and Rotterdam were military targets -
http://barnesreview.org/who-started-the ... s-in-wwii/


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