THE JUSTFICATION OF THE BOMBING OF DRESDEN?

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Werd
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Re: THE JUSTFICATION OF THE BOMBING OF DRESDEN?

Postby Werd » 3 years 6 months ago (Thu Nov 07, 2013 2:00 am)

http://www.fpp.co.uk/History/General/Dr ... aylor.html

Forward Forum

60 Years Later, Dresden Bombing Claims Another Victim: Memory

By Deborah Lipstadt

February 18, 2005
_________________________________________________-

The Dresden official responsible for collecting and counting the bodies, Theo Miller, wrote Irving in 1965 that the highest possible toll was 30,000. Irving ignored Miller's lucid and sober account in the many subsequent editions of his book. In 1965, a copy of the original police report, from which TB-47 had been extracted, was found. It listed a toll of 20,000 to 25,000.

Charles Gray, the presiding judge in my case, found Irving's treatment of the Dresden historical record "reprehensible" and "absurd" and concluded that Irving's work on this topic "fell far short of the standard to be expected of a conscientious historian." Even more telling is what Irving's German publishers wrote on the title page when they republished his book in 1985: "a novel."


Irving responds.


David Irving comments:

DEBORAH Lipstadt shows that one reason she did not speak for three months during the British High Court trial of my libel action against her -- a reticence which has puzzled many observers hitherto -- was evidently because she was asleep.
If awake she would have heard me tell the Court that for thirty years after my book The Destruction of Dresden was first published in 1963, no new editions whatever appeared (as opposed to reprints, over which an author has no control). (Lipstadt: "Irving ignored Miller's lucid and sober account in the many subsequent editions of his book. ")

I did however publish a letter in The Times (London) on July 7, 1966, quoting new documents which might suggest my figures were high; and although under no compulsion to do so, I paid for a reprint of this letter, which I circulated widely among historians.
The first opportunity I had to revise the content of the book was in 1995 when I published my own updated edition, as "Apocalypse 1945: the Destruction of Dresden."
We have just commissioned a newly updated reprint. But I confess that I still ignore Miller's "lucid and sober" account, as I had better sources on the death-roll than him, including the man whose job it was to keep the tally at the time.

AS for Dresden being attacked as a "key railway junction" for the eastern front, we have yet to hear Frederick Taylor (or now Professor Lipstadt, this multi-faceted genius of strategic history), explain the target map which I reproduced in 1963, and was given me by the Master Bomber himself, Wing Commander Maurice Smith: not one railroad station or railway line in the attack sector -- just the ancient, easily combustible, city center.
Small wonder that Taylor needed police protection when he tried to deliver his "Dresden-had-it-coming" lecture in the city earlier this month.
That would be akin to saying that the Jews deserved what they got.




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Re: THE JUSTFICATION OF THE BOMBING OF DRESDEN?

Postby carlo_ch » 2 years 9 months ago (Wed Aug 06, 2014 2:45 am)

by the way, revisionism also continues (or resumes) on the (nuclear) bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, and its "justification" by Truman. German newspaper article of today ("The US legend about Hiroshima and Nagasaki"): http://www.heise.de/tp/artikel/20/20565/1.html

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Re: THE JUSTFICATION OF THE BOMBING OF DRESDEN?

Postby Hektor » 2 years 3 months ago (Sat Feb 14, 2015 12:22 pm)

Werd wrote:
AS THE day draws on I come across a document which I only half-suspected I might ever find. In 1961, when I was writing my first book "The Destruction of Dresden", I was confidentially approached by a German schoolteacher, Hanns Voigt; he said that after the horrific British air raid, he was put in charge of Dresden's Missing Persons Bureau, Abteilung Tote - the Deceased Section. He built an immense card index, and he kept a diary; and he estimated for me that the final death toll in Dresden would have reached 135,000. This was the figure that I, and after me Kurt Vonnegut and others, always used.

Other city officials gave the same kind of estimates. (Later this year I shall post on my website a full dossier on the Dresden death toll.)

Voigt's estimate was a thorn in the side of both German Governments -- both east and west. They had always played down, even trivialised, the air raid casualty figures caused by the British saturation bombing (even as they hyped the numbers killed in the Jewish tragedy).

Only last year a German Government commission consisting of, not just conformist but kow-towing, line-toeing, bowing-and-scraping historians and Nickeseln, agreed that the death roll in the two hour man-made 1945 holocaust in Dresden was far lower, "only 25,000" (or, if possible, even less).

Without doing any in-depth research -- such scholars are far too important for that -- they relied on the police chief's early March 1945 report (which in fact I was the first to find), because it indicated lower figures than Hanns Voigt's for dead and missing.

In the Deborah Lipstadt Trial, her highly-paid chief expert Professor Richard "Skunky" Evans (left) vilified Voigt; he implied that Voigt was a liar, he questioned whether the Missing Persons bureau had ever existed, and he called him a Nazi with an agenda. (Voigt had, we now know, been given a good post-war position in the Soviet Zone before emigrating legally to the West, so the "Nazi" allegation seems unlikely.) Aping Evans, Mr Justice Gray accused me in his 333-page Judgment of falsifying history.

I was not invited to make any submissions to the Dresden Commission. No surprises there. This afternoon, my quiet patience is rewarded. I have come across this new secret document, signed by the police chief of Dresden, and decoded by the British some weeks after the war.

Image
http://www.fpp.co.uk/History/General/Dr ... de_600.jpg

At 5:55 p.m. on March 24, 1945 -- the day in fact when I turned eight, I remember it vividly -- the Dresden Polizeipräsident reported in code to SS Oberführer Dr. Dietrichs:

Re: Missing Persons Situation in Dresden Air Raid Defence region.

The Lord Mayor of Dresden City has established (a) a Central Bureau for Missing Persons and nine Missing Persons registries; (b) eighty- to one-hundred thousand missing-person notifications are estimated to have been registered so far; (c) 9,720 missing-person notifications have been confirmed as fatalities; (d) to date, information on twenty thousand missing person cases has been given out; (e) accurate statistical data possibly only later.


So Voigt was telling the truth.

Even the "hundred thousand" figure for those reported missing must be an under-estimate. There were over half a million homeless refugees in the streets of Dresden, fleeing the Red Army siege of Breslau to the East. Whole refugee families must have been engulfed by the Dresden holocaust, with nobody surviving to report them as "missing".

Another thing seems brutally clear: those listed as "missing" -- in addition to those bodies formally identified and buried or incinerated by this date -- were never going to return. To use the words of the telegram I found yesterday (see above) they were dead, "carbonised," and unidentifiable.

What do these decoded messages tell us about our own lazy and conformist historians, and about "Skunky" Evans in particular? He, and they, would never have found them. It has taken me these many years. Go the extra mile. Eventually, as this morning's Welshman said, "You will be proved right in the end".
...

If I recall it rightly the Einwohnermeldeamt of Dresden reported about 200.000 missing registered inhabitants in 1945.
In 1992 the city of Dresden estimated the death toll at more then 250.000
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Werd
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Re: THE JUSTFICATION OF THE BOMBING OF DRESDEN?

Postby Werd » 2 years 3 months ago (Sat Feb 14, 2015 1:16 pm)

Another nail in the coffin for the idiots over at axisforum and authors like Richard Evans.

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Re: THE JUSTFICATION OF THE BOMBING OF DRESDEN?

Postby EtienneSC » 2 years 3 months ago (Sun Feb 15, 2015 5:02 pm)

I know that we are not normally fans of eyewitness testimony on this site, but I found this interview with someone who was apparently in Dresden as a POW informative:

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Re: THE JUSTFICATION OF THE BOMBING OF DRESDEN?

Postby Werd » 2 years 3 months ago (Tue Feb 17, 2015 1:00 am)

The True Atrocity of the Fire Bombing of the German city of Dresden
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uopjdkvXbGw

Jump to the 43 minute mark to watch testimony after testimony about the low flying airplanes coming in to finish off the civilians, many of whom wound up near the Elbe river trying to escape the heat. I guess according to communist East German historians of old, most Americans, most Brits, and Zionist Jews, they are all liars. :roll:

As for that post of mine quoting David Irving that you brought back Hektor, consider this from theblackrabbitofinle over on rodoh.
https://www.rodoh.info/forum/viewtopic. ... 954#p57954
theblackrabbitofinlé wrote:
Back at the Public Record Office I continue to turn the pages of the immense volumes of decoded SS and police messages, released from top secret files only a few years ago. I have now read nearly fifty volumes and I have reached the year 1945. This particular volume has over 2,000 pages of flimsy paper, with ten or fifteen much-abbreviated decoded German messages typed on each page: the contents are madly out of sequence, bound into the volume in the order they were decoded weeks or months after the war.

I methodically read each one, and type a copy of those messages I may need for my Heinrich Himmler biography. Hard sledding, but it is worth it. Their value as a source is immense -- nothing here has been written just for post-war window-dressing (as some 1944 and 1945 documents clearly have been): nobody guessed that we would ever be reading these secret code messages.

AS THE day draws on I come across a document which I only half-suspected I might ever find. [...]

Image

Re: Missing Persons Situation in Dresden Air Raid Defence region.

The Lord Mayor of Dresden City has established (a) a Central Bureau for Missing Persons and nine Missing Persons registries; (b) eighty- to one-hundred thousand missing-person notifications are estimated to have been registered so far; (c) 9,720 missing-person notifications have been confirmed as fatalities; (d) to date, information on twenty thousand missing person cases has been given out; (e) accurate statistical data possibly only later.

http://www.fpp.co.uk/docs/Irving/RadDi/2009/240409.html



Irving neglected to advise what the archive ref is for this intercept, but I managed to find it last year and can confirm the archival ref is: UK NA: HW 16/43, ZIP/GPD 4073, Traffic 24.03.45, Addendum III, p.3, no.151.

Image


The turds over at axishistory and the one or two gas chamber nuts over at rodoh can f___ right off with their lies.

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Re: THE JUSTFICATION OF THE BOMBING OF DRESDEN?

Postby Modern Viking » 2 years 1 month ago (Sat Apr 11, 2015 10:20 pm)

Why has no one yet discussed the anti-Judaic (Congress for Safeguarding Non-Jewish Interests) meeting of September 11, 1882, conveniently convened in Dresden? The attack on Dresden could have been an outright revenge against this attack of Jewish financial interests? Most interesting to me is the coincidence of the date of September 11th. I believe it may be worth looking into, given the underhanded way the Holocaust tale has been shoved down peoples' collective throats.

http://jewishcurrents.org/september-11- ... ence-11946

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Re: THE JUSTFICATION OF THE BOMBING OF DRESDEN?

Postby Hektor » 3 months 1 week ago (Tue Feb 14, 2017 12:00 am)

Werd wrote:The True Atrocity of the Fire Bombing of the German city of Dresden
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uopjdkvXbGw

Jump to the 43 minute mark to watch testimony after testimony about the low flying airplanes coming in to finish off the civilians, many of whom wound up near the Elbe river trying to escape the heat. I guess according to communist East German historians of old, most Americans, most Brits, and Zionist Jews, they are all liars. :roll:

As for that post of mine quoting David Irving that you brought back Hektor, consider this from theblackrabbitofinle over on rodoh.
https://www.rodoh.info/forum/viewtopic. ... 954#p57954
....
Irving neglected to advise what the archive ref is for this intercept, but I managed to find it last year and can confirm the archival ref is: UK NA: HW 16/43, ZIP/GPD 4073, Traffic 24.03.45, Addendum III, p.3, no.151.

Image




I'm not too concerned about the exact figures, except to have some accurate historical record there. The shear fact that they had a historians commission assigned to the Dresden bombing question, but never a real equivalent to that for Auschwitz is revealing enough to me.

Anyway, It's 72 year anniversary for the bombing of Dresden may the maligned victims rest in peace.

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Re: THE JUSTFICATION OF THE BOMBING OF DRESDEN?

Postby Werd » 3 months 1 week ago (Tue Feb 14, 2017 2:20 am)

Indeed.


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