Railroad Delousing Tunnels and Robert Faurisson

[Friedrich Paul Berg]

Kiwichap wrote as follows and essentially embraced one of Faurisson's often used sophist arguments:

Anyway, I have to agree with Faurisson. On the other hand, when the subject is alive, the problem becomes formidable, because the body is entirely impregnated and permeated with a virulent poison. It is for this reason that an execution gas chamber is so complicated... One can well imagine the formidable dangers which the piles of corpses would constitute, be they inside a shed, a house, or a so-called Nazi "gas chamber".

The bodies of cyanide victims are not "entirely impregnated and permeated" at all. See my answer to Faurisson's nine-word challenge. And that is NOT what makes executions "so complicated" either. What makes executions rather complicated is that they are intended to do much more than simply kill someone. They also provide a show of sorts for the witnesses who must be kept safe as they watch--and they must also appear to kill the victims quickly with little appearance of suffering.

Hangings, for example, traditionally are also extremely complicated with tall, carefully and solidly constructed scaffolds, so as to allow the victims to drop and break their necks rather than strangle slowly. But to argue, therefore, that one cannot kill by simply suspending lots of victims by the necks from ordinary tree limbs is ridiculous. And yet, that is essentially Faurisson's argument.

Faurisson also insisted in 1994 that mass murder with poison gas was simply "impossible" because the ventilating fan could not be made large enough to ventilate all the bodies. COOKOO!

Nothing is gained by basing one's position on arguments that are easily exposed as unscientific and false.

Friedrich Paul Berg
Learn everything at www.nazigassings.com
Nazi Gassings Never Happened! Niemand wurde vergast!

[Kiwichap]

Kiwichap, it's just not credible logic. While hydrogen cyanide is dangerous, had everything you write above been true (that it would remain in the chamber, and be absorbed by the skin of people entering the chamber), it would not be used as a fumigant by anyone. Instead we are aware that it was used many thousands of times to cleanse objects of vermin.

You have missed Faurissons point. There is a multitude of difference between fumigating objects and rooms from killing people. On the other hand, when the subject is alive, the problem becomes formidable, because the body is entirely impregnated and permeated with a virulent poison. It is for this reason that an execution gas chamber is so complicated,

If you fumigate some blankets say, you don't throw them in a heap on the floor. No, you hang them up for the gas to circulate around, and then the ventilation procedure. No problems. Now imagine your blankets all rushing together when being fumigated,into a big heap on the floor. No amount of ventilation is going to succeed. The only way to get rid of the gas/liquid would be to subject the entire room, including the blankets, to a very high temperature. Otherwise be prepared to spend a long time waiting. When fumigating rooms, all cupboard doors etc are left open for the gas to get to easily and for the ventilation to succeed easier. When fumigating houses etc, the operator should be looking for situations that can be deadly.

HYDROGEN CYANIDE (FUMIGATION) ACT

(CHAPTER 132, SECTION 2)

HYDROGEN CYANIDE (FUMIGATION) REGULATIONS
5. No person shall commence to fumigate any premises until -

(c) all liquids and foods which are liable to absorb the fumigant have been removed from the fumigation area;

21. The fumigant shall not be applied in such a manner as to be absorbed in liquid form by floors, walls, ceilings or household effects nor in such quantities as to exceed the concentration permitted by the Director-General for the fumigant.

Bodies, like liquids (water), absorb cyanide, you cannot touch them, they emit cyanide. If each person was hung up like a blanket, even then they would continue to emit cyanide long after.

In the US gas chambers, they carefully wash each body with a neutralizing agent (Ammonia). And then it should be sealed up. Corpses burp you know and continue to reek.

As Faurisson said: when the subject is alive, the problem becomes formidable

[Friedrich Paul Berg]

Could Kiwichap please give the source for the Fumigation Regulations that he quotes?

Friedrich Paul Berg
Learn everything at www.nazigassings.com
Nazi Gassings Never Happened! Niemand wurde vergast!

[Kiwichap]

http://app.nea.gov.sg/cms/htdocs/category_sub.asp?cid=216

Declaration of safety.
23. No person other than a member of the fumigating staff shall be permitted to enter the fumigation area after fumigation until both the fumigation area and the risk area are declared safe for re-entry by means of a written declaration in the Form G set out in the Schedule served by the operator on all persons to whom the notice required by regulation 17 has been served. No such declaration shall be given until -

(a) the fumigation area has been ventilated in such a manner and for such period as shall be effective to secure that the area is free from danger;

(b) it has been established by tests, other than the sense of smell that the premises are free from danger. For this purpose the operator shall be equipped with test papers or other means approved by the Director-General for objectively testing the atmosphere;

S717/2006 wef 01/01/2007

(c) all residues of the materials used for fumigation have been removed;

(d) all water taps have been turned on for at least one minute and the water allowed to run to waste;

(e) all water closet cisterns have been emptied and the pans adequately flushed;

(f) all other receptacles containing water or other liquid which is liable to absorb fumigant or gas arising therefrom have been emptied; and

(g) all bedding, blankets, pillows, clothing, cushions and other articles which are liable to absorb the fumigant or gas arising therefrom have been well shaken or beaten or aired until they are free from any dangerous concentration of fumigant or gas arising therefrom.

[Kiwichap]

Water is the key thing. Hydrogen Cyanide is readily soluble in water. The human body is 75% water. When a molecule of HCN touches your skin, it thinks to itself. "Hell, its easier for me to go into the skin than to carry on floating about in the air". (depending on humidity I guess)

So no amount of ventilation will remove cyanide once it has been absorbed in a human body.

Can you imagine a pile of 2,000 dead cyanided Jews, fresh out of Auschwitz 1, stacked up waiting to be cremated? Nobody would go near them.

If you search 'possum trapper Australasia cyanide cigarette'. Unfortunately it is subscription only, you will find a story of a trapper (I think two trappers). ... the tube of cyanide paste prior to ‘rolling’ a cigarette ...
http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/doi/abs/10.1046/j.1442-2026.2000.00132.x?journalCode=emm

Anyway, the trappers must have had a miniscule amount of cyanide on ther fingers. When rolling a cigarette, and licking the paper, they got enough cyanide on their tongues to kill them.

Now imagine those two thousand Jews, stacked up next to the Auschwitz hospital...

[Kiwichap]

When Hydrogen Cyanide gas is absorbed into water, it is called:

Hydrocyanic Acid

Solution of hydrogen cyanide gas (HCN) in water. It is a colourless, highly poisonous, volatile liquid, smelling of bitter almonds.

Volatile: readily vaporizable at a relatively low temperature

So there would be a HUGE pile of dead stinking poisonous Jews, every time there was a gassing. We've heard the numbers, 2000 at a time. We've seen the ovens, what?.. there was only 4 in A1? Yeah, but they were gonna build two more?

Ya just gotta laugh.

And make damn sure ya don't stand down wind!

[Friedrich Paul Berg]

What does Kiwichap believe happens to that "volatile liquid" HCN when the temperature of any object containing HCN is raised above the boiling point of that liquid?

BTW, the boiling point of HCN is only 79.6 degrees Fahrenheit, just a few degrees above ordinary room temperature.

Friedrich Paul Berg
Learn everything at www.nazigassings.com
Nazi Gassings Never Happened! Niemand wurde vergast!

[MrNobody]

kiwichap
The Auschwitz photo clearly shows adjustable slated windows in 2 separate cars.

As for the "Door on the end of the Box car", on closer examination it isn't a door, it is in fact the the door travel lock, used to keep the door ajar, so that was my gaff, but you must also bear the mistake for not examining the photos yourself

As for Stock use, horses in particular I pointed out the Military use because it is through German Army entraining regulations, memoirs & photos that I have the best understanding.

However consideration should be given to the fact that European nations are not what one would term "stock heavy", Boxcars would make up the vast majority, while "Stock Cars" would make up only a small percentage of all the rolling stock.
Boxcars would also be more suitable for transporting stock during the winter months, trade doesn't cease just because winter arrives, what would you prefer, your beef to arrive safely at it's destination in a boxcar or a stock wagon full of frozen beef patties?

Livestock can be transported in a boxcar (which was standard practice in the U.S. until the mid-1880s), but there is insufficient ventilation in warm weather.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boxcar

btw, my purpose in posting the images was primarily to blow holes in your statement that the Boxcars in use were unventilated & wouldn't allow gas to circulate freely, although I admit that the "doors" were also a part of it & I freely admit my mistake, regrettably it is far to easy to become wrapped up in "semantics" & miss the real important points.

[Friedrich Paul Berg]

In an earlier post on this thread, Kiwichap wrote the following:

Bodies, like liquids (water), absorb cyanide, you cannot touch them, they emit cyanide. If each person was hung up like a blanket, even then they would continue to emit cyanide long after.

What does Kiwichap believe happens to any cyanide within a corpse when the temperature of the entire corpse is raised to 85 degrees Fahrenheit and held at that temperature for say, half-an-hour? How much liquid cyanide remains? And, if someone happens to touch such a corpse, what happens?

BTW, the boiling point of HCN is only 79.6 degrees Fahrenheit, just a few degrees above ordinary room temperature.

Friedrich Paul Berg
Learn everything at www.nazigassings.com
Nazi Gassings Never Happened! Niemand wurde vergast!

[Kiwichap]

Mr Nobody, but you must also bear the mistake for not examining the photos yourself

Ok, but I'm not going to lose any sleep over it.

Mr Berg, What does Kiwichap believe happens to that "volatile liquid" HCN when the temperature of any object containing HCN is raised above the boiling point of that liquid?

In normal fumigation, where non-absorbent objects have free flowing contact with the air, then eventually the HCN will boil off.

In a big pile of dead Jews, where there is no free flow contact with the air and the temperature is rising, then the HCN will volatise and condence, volatise and condence, permeating even more throughout the entire pile. The entire pile will become a steamy toxic wasteland. If you wanted to remove the total HCN from the pile, you would need to virtually cook it at oven temperature for who knows how long, but certainly several hours/days to be sure.

We have heard in the alleged gas chambers that the victims would rush to the doors, (you know, those doors that opened inwards) so there would be a big pile of absorbent human flesh.

Trying to ventilate that is ridiculous, the air cannot reach into the pile. Raising the temperature a few degrees will only add to the problem and allow further absorbtion by the now volatile HCN trapped within the pile. The bodies are cooling now that they are dead so there will be a continual chemical battle as the gas tries to reach the surface of the pile.

Try it at home with water. Wet half a blanket and hang it on the line in the sun. Wet another half blanket and leave it in a heap on the ground in the sun. See which one dries first. Oh, and watch the blanket on the ground, Before it dries, the steamy water vapour will permeate through the dry half effectivly wetting the entire blanket. Only when the raised temperature has equalised througout the entire heap will the vapour begin to truely disperse.

Fumigation is to kill fleas and insects and steralise non-absorbent inanimate objects. Not a big lump of HCN absorbent flesh similar to food and water, which are always removed from the scene.

As Faurisson said Mr Berg, when the subject is alive, the problem becomes formidable

[Friedrich Paul Berg]

How does Kiwichap imagine that any condensation of HCN could possibly occur on any corpse (or corpses) if the temperature of the corpse (or corpses) is 85 degrees Fahrenheit?

BTW, the boiling point of HCN is only 79.6 degrees Fahrenheit, just a few degrees above ordinary room temperature. Also, the body temperature of human beings before death is about 98 degrees Fahrenheit and drops only rather slowly after death (only about 1 degree Fahrenheit per hour in an ambient environment of 70 degrees F.).

Friedrich Paul Berg
Learn everything at www.nazigassings.com
Nazi Gassings Never Happened! Niemand wurde vergast!

[ps]

The HCN steam ist not saturated. Therefore is liquid HCN condensation not possible! Maybe at -60°C.

[Friedrich Paul Berg]

In response to "PS," HCN condensation is inevitable at -60 degrees Centigrade---but NOT possible at all at +85 degrees Fahrenheit!!!

Friedrich Paul Berg
Learn everything at www.nazigassings.com
Nazi Gassings Never Happened! Niemand wurde vergast!

[Wahrheit]

Water is the key thing. Hydrogen Cyanide is readily soluble in water. The human body is 75% water. When a molecule of HCN touches your skin, it thinks to itself. "Hell, its easier for me to go into the skin than to carry on floating about in the air". (depending on humidity I guess)

Please show evidence that Hydrogen Cyanide molecules have the intelligence required to recognize that humans have a large proportion of water in their bodies, and therefore will travel through the skin to reach that water.

Utter nonsense, Kiwichap.

And Hydrogen Cyanide is easily vaporized, as can be seen by Irmscher's study on Zyklon-B, clinging to items, but not necessary humans unless they are covered in sweat. This is why it is highly discouraged from producing sweat when dealing with the poison.

http://www.holocaust-history.org/works/irmscher-1942/htm/p037.htm

So no amount of ventilation will remove cyanide once it has been absorbed in a human body.

Right, but by far the majority of the cyanide concentration will be absorbed through the lungs, NOT the skin.

And it takes time for cyanide concentrations to be absorbed through the skin. From the "Chemistry of Toxicology" by Harvey Elkins:

In high concentrations, hydrogen cyanide is absorbed through the skin; therefore complete reliance cannot be placed on a gas mask. After 1 hour exposure, 100 to 250 ppm of HCN are dangerous.

So over one hour to a direct exposure of 100-250 ppm is dangerous through skin absorbtion. By this time, unless heavy-duty gas masks are involved, the worker would be dead anyway, through entering the workers' lung cavity. You cited OSHA yourself, which states:

U.S Department of Labor
Occupational Safety and Health Administration

2. Effects on Humans: Hydrogen cyanide can cause rapid death due to metabolic asphyxiation. Death can occur within seconds or minutes of the inhalation of high concentrations of hydrogen cyanide gas. A recent study reports an estimated LC(50) in humans of 3,404 ppm for a 1-minute exposure; other sources report that 270 ppm is fatal after 6 to 8 minutes, 181 ppm after 10 minutes and 135 ppm after 30 minutes [Hathaway et al. 1991].
http://www.osha.gov/SLTC/healthguidelin ... uresources

A 100-250 ppm exposure to HCN would kill through the lungs say in 10-35 minutes, not enough time to be saturating the corpses.

Yet this is all pie-in-the-sky, for any type of ventilation would not let such a concentration be maintained in the delousing chambers for such poisoning to take place.

Can you imagine a pile of 2,000 dead cyanided Jews, fresh out of Auschwitz 1, stacked up waiting to be cremated? Nobody would go near them.

I cannot imagine it for other reasons than the Jews bodies' being cyanide laden. A 1993 American Family Physician article, quoting a US Dept. of Health and Human services on "Cyanide Toxicity" states:

Cyanide is absorbed through the lungs, gastrointestinal tract, and skin. Symptoms can occur within seconds of HCN [cyanide gas] inhalation; ....Cyanide is readily absorbed through the mucous membranes and the eyes. Clinical cases of cyanide poisoning after dermal exposure are rare and most often have involved burns with molten cyanide salts or immersion in cyanide solutions.
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/camps/aus ... ous-claims

Your cyanide-saturated bodies simply would not pose a threat to any workers' lives, Kiwichap.

Anyway, the trappers must have had a miniscule amount of cyanide on ther fingers. When rolling a cigarette, and licking the paper, they got enough cyanide on their tongues to kill them.

Ingested and breathed is completely different from entering through the skin, and are considerably more deadly via cyanide.

[Friedrich Paul Berg]

Even where water is present, why would any HCN enter solution with the water, if the water is at 85 degrees Fahrenheit, for example?

Friedrich Paul Berg
Learn everything at www.nazigassings.com
Nazi Gassings Never Happened! Niemand wurde vergast!