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Himmler's note infers Hitler knew of liquidation ?

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Postby Hotzenplotz » Fri May 20, 2005 6:44 am

I'm a bit late with my comment but after having had the impression that the memo might be relevant the obvious interpretation suddenly struck me, which is:

"Arrest Dr. Jakelius. He is allegedly Molotov's son. He's on a train with Jews from Berlin. Don't liquidate him."

Himmler perhaps just made sure they would arrest and not kill him. That wouldn't imply at all that Jews were normally killed, but simply that is was important that Jakelius be captured alive.

...or so it seems to me.

BTW, because CCS wondered, it is the same in German: "Liquidierung" can refer to the liduidation of goods, "liquide Mittel" means cash, etc.
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Postby Richard Perle » Fri May 20, 2005 6:54 am

According to Irving, Molotov had no son. Not that Himmler would necessarily know that. I find it too hard to believe that this Dr Jekelius would be travelling by free will (pre-arrest) on a train of Jews (a Viennese Doctor on a train of Jews from Berlin?) and that anyone within the Nazi command would believe that he could be Molotov's son. This points to there being no connection between the comments on each line. I know I'm repeating myself here but it appears obvious to me.

At the end of the day, this memo is not a strong peice of evidence for extermination. It will certainly bolster the views of true believers and it might tip a fence-sitter over to that side, but if/when the holocaust gets the open, critical debate it deserves, memos such as this will ultimately be cast into oblivion.
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Postby semblance7 » Fri May 20, 2005 7:14 am

This document looks more like a haiku poem than proof the holocaust happened.


Geez and I worked so hard on its presentation ! :lol:

Guys, this is not good Revisionism. Hannover is speaking only in absolutes and practically no one, it seems, will concede even that the question might - just might - remain open to interpretation.

I still don't have a strong opinion about this. I do think I had a pretty good go at it though. 8)
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Postby Richard Perle » Fri May 20, 2005 7:47 am

Oh, I think it is still open to interpretation, but the only two interpretations I think are plausible right now are the one Hotzenplotz just demonstrated nicely:

"Arrest Dr. Jakelius. He is allegedly Molotov's son. He's on a train with Jews from Berlin. Don't liquidate him."

Which seems very logical to me. Or my theory that each line might have no relation to the other, considering the unlikley link between the top three lines.

I simply cannot believe that liquidation - as in execution - was the default fate for a trainload of Jews and that an order would have to be made to stop it. There would need to be other evidence. Imagine what you might find if you looked through every government memo ever written in the world with the intention of finding something incriminating. The holocaust is too heavy to hang on nails such as these.
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Postby Hannover » Fri May 20, 2005 9:27 am

semblance said:
Guys, this is not good Revisionism. Hannover is speaking only in absolutes and practically no one, it seems, will concede even that the question might - just might - remain open to interpretation.

I still don't have a strong opinion about this. I do think I had a pretty good go at it though.

Not good? Why? Because we have given alternative, very logical explanations of what this memo was about?

Speaking in absolutes? Yes I am. It is absolutely necessary that there be evidence for a claim of mass murder. Evidence which you cannot present.

Don't have a strong opinion? Right. Looks to me that you have a very strong opinion in favor of the standard storyline, but simply cannot present evidence for it. That's called conditioning and indoctrinatrion. We all had that malaise at one time.

Having said all that, we're glad to have you and keep 'em coming.

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.
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Postby Richard Perle » Fri May 20, 2005 11:19 am

Some more on Jekelius.

"Erwin Jekelius was the first medical director, and the second director, who took on the responsibility in July 1942 after Jekelius was called to battle, was Ernst Illingo."

I'm finding it increasingly hard to believe that this man was anywhere near a train load of Jews from Berlin in November 1941, (or that he's have any chance of being liquidated when the train reached its destination) or that anyone would believe that he was Molotov's son.

I don't think we'll ever know the real meaning behind this memo.
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Postby semblance7 » Fri May 20, 2005 11:58 am

Hannover I just smile when I read your posts -
It is absolutely necessary that there be evidence for a claim of mass murder. Evidence which you cannot present.
Didn't make that claim. Just asked if that train of jews may have been liquidated.
Looks to me that you have a very strong opinion in favor of the standard storyline, but simply cannot present evidence for it
Nope. Do not. I'm only inquisitive.
Having said all that, we're glad to have you and keep 'em coming.
Ahh, Hannover's redemption. Thanks, and I'll keep trying :D

I appreciate Perle's reply most
I don't think we'll ever know the real meaning behind this memo.
Spoken like a real Revisionist.

Cheers Gentlemen
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Postby Hannover » Fri May 20, 2005 12:12 pm

Hannover I just smile when I read your posts -

Quote:
It is absolutely necessary that there be evidence for a claim of mass murder. Evidence which you cannot present.

Keep smiling as you are run over by a truck, but you will be relentlessy dogged for any evidence. That's what we do here. You do know that, right?

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.
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Postby Moderator » Sun Nov 02, 2008 1:09 am

Wahrheit,
Again your posting old points that have discussed. Address the rebuttals to them, don't just keep posting them over & over.
Only lies need to be shielded from debate, truth welcomes it.
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Postby Wahrheit » Sun Nov 02, 2008 1:46 am

Richard Perle wrote:They are just notes jotted down that might not make sense to anyone else and might have no discernable context. I know I have glanced at notes by phones and found them puzzling. I've even looked at my own notes from long ago and had no idea what I meant at the time of writing them.


Correct, if you are looking at notes and notes alone. With a wider knowledge and context that the notes were taken in, they are much easier to discern and understand. We have other such context clues in addition to Himmler's Nov. 30 telephone log, which help give us an idea of what Himmler was referring to.

These context clues include:

-Himmler's Dec. 1 telephone log, where in a call to Heydrich he notes a discussion on "executions in Riga", the destination of the trainload referred to in Himmler's "Keine Liquidierung" note.
-The British Enigma decrypts of eastern German SS and police units of Dec. 1 messages, where Himmler orders Jeckeln to arrive at the Walf's Lair and account for his violation of the established guidelines
-Himmler's desk diary of Dec. 4, where after SS Officer Jeckeln was ordered to meet with him, one of the noted discussion points was the "Jewish Question"

All of this evidence CLEARLY shows that liquidation was the fate of the Berlin transport. Indeed Generalmajor Walter Bruns admitted to such an event to fellow prisoners, all the while the British listened in.

Perhaps in Himmler's conversation with Heydrich they spoke about arresting Jekelius, about an alleged son of Molotov, about a transport of Berlin Jews and about not liquidating something or someone. Is that too much of a stretch?


Yes Richard Perle, because it ignores every piece of the context clues I discussed above.

Of course, this allows for "No liquidation" to be unrelated to the transport of Berlin Jews. That the phrase appears underneath mention of such a transport could be a coincidence of the kind only noticed and deemed important by historians starved of any real documentary evidence for extermination.


I sympathize with your sentiment, and believe that much too often jotted mice are turned into monsters, but the evidence clearly points in one direction in the case before us: murder.
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Postby ASMarques » Sun Nov 02, 2008 4:21 am

Wahrheit wrote:These context clues include:

-Himmler's Dec. 1 telephone log, where in a call to Heydrich he notes a discussion on "executions in Riga", the destination of the trainload referred to in Himmler's "Keine Liquidierung" note.
-The British Enigma decrypts of eastern German SS and police units of Dec. 1 messages, where Himmler orders Jeckeln to arrive at the Walf's Lair and account for his violation of the established guidelines
-Himmler's desk diary of Dec. 4, where after SS Officer Jeckeln was ordered to meet with him, one of the noted discussion points was the "Jewish Question"

All of this evidence CLEARLY shows that liquidation was the fate of the Berlin transport.


I would disagree with your implication. The war in the East was seen by the Germans as a struggle to the death with communism. It's clear both the Germans and many Eastern Europeans looked at the Jews as largely responsible for the Russian Revolution and its long catalogue of genocidal policies. The sequence that you point out may well mean that Himmler and the German leadership were aware of massacres of local Jews and turning a blind eye to them, if not actually encouraging and occasionally directing them in the context of cleaning up support for the Soviet regime in their rear, but at the same time avoiding the same fate to Jews deported from the West and Germany itself.

For instance, there was widespread spontaneous violence against the local Jews in Lodz after the Germans entered the city, and this apparently in spite of German efforts to put an end to it. And, on the other hand, there is little doubt that the Germans did encourage some large massacres in the Baltics (Liepaja / Libau comes to the mind) and elsewhere.

Himmler's notes may well translate his thinking more or less along those lines: encouraging the "neutralization" of the local Jews, communist cadres and/or collaborators etc., seen as dangerous to the German occupation, but simultaneously avoiding the same sort of extreme measures against the deported Jews. Hence his attempt at avoiding the extension of what was happening in Riga to the Berlin transport that would be arriving there at short notice.

Of course, nothing of this has anything to do with the concept that goes by the name of "the Holocaust" (intention of extermination, chain murder in gas chambers, 6 million victims).
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Postby Hannover » Sun Nov 02, 2008 10:26 am

Wahrheit cites Walter Bruns:
All of this evidence CLEARLY shows that liquidation was the fate of the Berlin transport. Indeed Generalmajor Walter Bruns admitted to such an event to fellow prisoners, all the while the British listened in.

However, the Bruns 'recorded conversations' are laughable and absurd as I have shown here:

'The bogus Bruns document'
http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=15
for more see:
on Irving's bogus 'overheard conversations'
http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=4454
and:
also see:
'Bruns admits confession was fake'
http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=1311

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.
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Postby Hannover » Sun Nov 02, 2008 10:43 am

Wahrheit says:
-The British Enigma decrypts of eastern German SS and police units of Dec. 1 messages, where Himmler orders Jeckeln to arrive at the Walf's Lair and account for his violation of the established guidelines
-Himmler's desk diary of Dec. 4, where after SS Officer Jeckeln was ordered to meet with him, one of the noted discussion points was the "Jewish Question"

Old news.
Jeckeln has been shot down previously in this thread and here
http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=169
Take note that the claimed mass graves from all that Wahrheit claims cannot be shown.

And of course, no one argues with the fact there was a"Jewish Question" and that the NS were relocating and deporting Jews. Hardly proof of 'extermination'.

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.
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Postby Turpitz » Sun Nov 02, 2008 3:24 pm

All of this evidence CLEARLY shows that liquidation was the fate of the Berlin transport


No it doesn't, because as is usual with the industry. Once the easily forgeable paper trail has been followed, it comes to a sudden and abrupt dead-end. Right when you should be standing on the edge of a huge mass grave, that would be impossible to hide.

What was the difference about these Jews from Berlin, and the ones found in the hospitals in Berlin after the war? Why murder a certain amount, but try and save the lives of others?

Wasn't the odious, hate filled Ehrenberg incensed after Goebbels ordered Katyn to be exumed? Surely any chance the Marxist's had of smearing the Germans they would have. Instead, after the war, the only mass grave shown, and falsly pinned on the Huns, was the Katyn one which the Marxist's did in reality.

If all these graves were known to exist, they would have been exploited for propaganda purposes. Especially during the show trials, when these supposed graves would have been very fresh. The self pronounced 'prosecuters' at the show trials, were desperate for gruel to pin on the Huns, so they could cover up their own 'real' crimes.

But at the trials, they had nothing except for shit about: Soap, Lampshades, Thumb light switches, fat, Geese, electric floors. And for good measure we'll chuck Katyn into the farce....
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Postby bridgebuilder » Mon Nov 03, 2008 5:09 pm

It must be remembered that the Nazis were ruthless totalitarians ...


This sounds good and it certainly fits with most people's presuppositions of the nature of the German government, but in fact the Germans enjoyed government by a party that came to power by constitutional means and that operated under the rule of law. The Soviet government, on the other hand, was government by a mass-murdering revolutionary body unconstrained by any law at all. In fact the extermination agencies were deliberately and explicitly set up to operate outside of any legal constraints. The "ruthless totalitarian" Germans fed, clothed and housed the people they interned whereas the Soviets on the Allied side deliberately starved and froze them to death. Nor, if some recent books on the role of Eisenhower in determining Allied policy towards surrendered German forces are to be believed, were the Soviets the only one of the Allied nations to succumb to this barbarism.
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