The SANITY Test!

[Greg Gerdes]

Look at Warheit run away from the test.

Why do you refuse to take the test Warheit?


The test: Do you agree with FPB that railroad delousing gas chambers could have been e-a-s-i-l-y used to commit mass murder by the Nazis?


Yes?

or

No?


Warheit

This is your version of "sanity"?

And your "magically disappearing jew theory" is sane?

[Greg Gerdes]

Warheit

For Auschwitz-Birkenau, we are talking about some gas chambers that can hold more than five times the amount of victims in your railroad delousing tunnel, and which performed quicker and more directly than your method would allow.

Warheit, can you prove that there was one single "gas chamber" at Auschwitz-Birkenau where even one single jew was gassed to death?

Yes?
or
NO?

Please notice Warheit's choice of words:

which performed quicker and more directly

[Wahrheit]

Well, one all-important difference between the two methods is that the railroad method would have worked and it could have been employed right there in Budapest, for example--without requiring that long train trip to Auschwitz. Just drive the cars into the delousing chamber and then (after the Jews are all dead) off to a rail siding somewhere next to a ravine.

It is not a great distance away, less than two hundred miles by train.

Assuming that Budapest had a single railcar delousing tunnel (200 people), it would take 2000 gassings to eliminate 400,000 Hungarian Jews. And you believe that this would be the best option? Thats more than five years, assuming one gassing per day. Meanwhile, in Birkenau, Kremas II & III alone could gas at least 4000 a day, in addition to tother gassing facilities. No doubt the gassings would also work much quicker, as victims were immediately exposed to cyanide, whereas in fumigation tunnels the cyanide would have to reach through the railcar.

Face it Fritz, it just doesn't work. Could it have worked in theory? Sure, perhaps on an ad hoc basis. Was it the ultimate option for homicidal gassings? No, not by a long shot.

There are still other major problems with the Birkenau-Krema method that we have been led to believe in. For one, there is no separation between the alleged homicidal gas chambers (the mortuaries) and the crematoriums (Kremas 2 and 3). The dangers are NOT from possible explosions but from the fact that people are working there. They would have had to evacuate those buildings -- or equip every worker there with a gas mask to wear while they were burning bodies.

Why? If mechanical ventilation evacuates the poisonous gas, or the majority of it, what is the real danger?

[Carto's Cutlass Supreme]

Is it really an advantage that the delousing tunnels are just outside of Budapest? How hard is it to build a gas chamber just outside of Budapest. A concrete warehouse with fans.

I think Wahreit has some good points. But why couldn't a delousing tunnel be as long as the whole train? That's how I would imagine it: the train clears the height and width of the tunnel with only a couple feet on each side, to minimize the amount of air needed to fumigate, and cattle cars are used, to let the air in easily.

Disadvantages: they have their clothes on. All belongings get Zyklon B exposure. They don't do any work themselves: like taking off clothes, helping to sort belongings, and thus someone has to do that work after they are dead.

Advantages: easy transport of dead bodies afterward. No commotion herding people into a gas chamber.

[Friedrich Paul Berg]

To see how the Germans built a real gassing installation, look at the following text from Pressac regarding the beautiful reception building and especially its connected delousing facility with 19 ten-cubic meter gas chambers:

http://veritas3.holocaust-history.org/a ... 0033.shtml

http://veritas3.holocaust-history.org/a ... 0034.shtml

from Google Earth

from Google Earth

Note the s-e-p-a-r-a-t-i-o-n between the huge, odd-shaped reception building and the gassing facility. I did not know that this extraordinary building even existed any more--but there it is today, thanks to Google Earth surrounded by a parking area for the employees. It is NOT on the tour given to visitors although the reception building definitely is. Why, is a good question but I suspect it would be too hard to explain that the SS used gas chambers to keep people alive. Keep them all as stupid as possible, and for as long as possible. That reception building is the first building tourists visit today to get their personal tour guides, and brochures, and to eat in the basement cafeteria.



In the drawing above, from page 34 of Pressac, one can see the 19 stalls for standard DEGESCH gas chambers. Those chambers were each equipped with separate internal heaters and fans for thorough forced fumigating and venting. One can also see that the entire building had NO walls between the support columns so that the gas chambers, and clothes racks, were open to as much natural venting as possible as well afterward. What's more, the building used a "patio" arrangement so that carts could sit for as long as desired in fresh air before the clothing would be given back to the owners, or inmates of the camp.



The drawing above is from Photo 8, page 37 of Pressac. Carts with dirty clothes would enter the "dirty side" (Unreine Seite) of the building, (via roofed but open passage way, lower right) and be brought to the interior center of the building, and then pushed into the gas chambers. After fumigation and forced venting were all completed (one hour), the doors on the opposite side of the gas chambers would be opened so that the carts could be pulled out to the "clean side" (Reine Seite)and parked in the open patio areas for some additional natural venting. The carts would then be wheeled back into the reception building (via roofed but open passageway, lower left)--and the clothing returned, lice-free, to its original owners.

For some super, actual wartime photos, see: http://veritas3.holocaust-history.org/a ... 0038.shtml

BTW, that was how the SS and the Germans did things. The reception building and the gassing facility are probably, still today, among the most beautiful buildings one can find anywhere, especially in Poland. They are both awesome. By contrast, Poland--still today--is generally a horrible, third-world dump, really!

The design and orderly flow through the delousing station also shows the great care that was taken, and needed, to protect people in the reception building. There is nothing remotely like that for the Kremas and alleged homicidal morgues/gas chambers at Birkenau or Auschwitz 1.

Friedrich Paul Berg
Learn everything at http://www.nazigassings.com
Nazi Gassings Never Happened! Niemand wurde vergast!

[Gébé Tremblay]

Do you agree with me that railroad delousing gas chambers could have been e-a-s-i-l-y used to commit mass murder by the Nazis?

Not for the numbers claimed.

What minimum amount of victims could be said to be a mass murder ?

Excellent web site you have there:
http://www.nazigassings.com

[Kiwichap]

HCN loves water.

Because of its extreme solubility in water, hydrogen cyanide is most firmly retained by moist commodities. Generally the bulk of the gas escapes from drier products fairly readily and without reaction with the constituents, but small amounts of gas may be retained for long periods. Monier-Williams (1930) gives data collected from the literature up to 1929 for residual hydrogen cyanide found in a large number of treated commodities under the headings: milk and milk products; oils and fats, meat, fish, etc.; cereals, flour, etc.; fresh fruit; dried fruit; fresh vegetables; tea, coffee, cocoa; and miscellaneous foods, together with details of treatments.
http://www.inchem.org/documents/jmpr/jmpmono/v65apr09.htm

The real bone of contention here is not about railway sheds or tunnels or how e-a-s-y it is. The bone of contention is Bergs demand: "Do you agree with me ...? If not, you're insane.

The simple answer is I don't agree with Berg at all. His question is flawed. It does not spring from a desire to know what anybody else thinks. All Berg is interested in is his demand; "do we agree with me".

C'mon Berg. Why bring your silly dispute with Faurisson to the table again? The question is childish. What you call e-a-s-y may in r-e-a-l-i-t-y be h-a-r-d!. How many mass gassings have you got under your belt, how many appear on your CV?

FPB; This is a personal dispute you have with Faurisson, yet you insist on burdening us with your campaign. You'll have a hard job recruiting here. We all love Faurisson and you are blackening his name and Toben's; all because you have a buzzy bee in your bonnet. I'm guessing it's your french. Something got lost in translation. There has been a misunderstanding between you two.

[Friedrich Paul Berg]

Hey, if you don't like my test question--just stay away.

As to the "numbers" involved, that was never my question. That is simply another question among so many other possible questions.

Friedrich Paul Berg
Learn everything at http://www.nazigassings.com
Nazi Gassings Never Happened! Niemand wurde vergast!

[Kiwichap]

FPB, your question merely amuses me. It is a hypothetical question and can go nowhere at all with any certainty. Perhaps your ego is hoping to be the big winner here.

Your silly divisive question is just that, silly and divisive. However, calling Dr Faurisson a hopeless .. kind of .. retard; cannot go unchallenged.

[Drew J]

Assuming that Budapest had a single railcar delousing tunnel (200 people), it would take 2000 gassings to eliminate 400,000 Hungarian Jews. And you believe that this would be the best option? Thats more than five years, assuming one gassing per day. Meanwhile, in Birkenau, Kremas II & III alone could gas at least 4000 a day, in addition to tother gassing facilities. No doubt the gassings would also work much quicker, as victims were immediately exposed to cyanide, whereas in fumigation tunnels the cyanide would have to reach through the railcar.

Face it Fritz, it just doesn't work. Could it have worked in theory? Sure, perhaps on an ad hoc basis. Was it the ultimate option for homicidal gassings? No, not by a long shot.

This is an interesting counter. If you were going to gas a lot of Jews, what would be the best way? To constantly stop a killing train on one track, gas the Jews, dump them out and ventilate it and then go back for more, or rather have a constant train moving only to stop and drop a bunch off and then gas them inside gas chamber structures while the train goes back for more - which would seem to be hitting two birds with one stone? I think that is what Wahreit is getting at. On the other hand, if the trains were really that much better as FPB says, and the Nazis should have discovered it, then why didn't they just have a bunch of railway cars not on tracks, but rather in the campgrounds hooked up with delousers in them? Hell, why not just gas the Jews in the camp's delousing chambers themselves? They were stuck in the camp and sure weren't going anywhere at least for the time being.

[Friedrich Paul Berg]

CCS asked the following question earlier:

But why couldn't a delousing tunnel be as long as the whole train? That's how I would imagine it: the train clears the height and width of the tunnel with only a couple feet on each side, to minimize the amount of air needed to fumigate, and cattle cars are used, to let the air in easily.

They certainly could have built longer delousing tunnels to fumigate many railroad cars at a time--or simply lengthened the existing ones. Although the smaller tunnels had volumes of about 200 cubic meters (for one car at a time), the one in Roumania had a volume of 1600 cubic meters for as many as (8) eight railroad cars at a time. I have often referred to that facility as a kind of "Sistine Chapel" for possible mass extermination. These facilities were generally located in the biggest railroad yards available which, coincidentally, would have been near the biggest railroad stations generally. The Budapest delousing tunnel was NOT "outside" of Budapest, as far as I know, but right in the heart of Budapest--an ideal location for murdering those Hungarian Jews in 1944 just after they had boarded the trains for their supposed trip Auschwitz.

In general, these facilities were often referred to as "tunnels" (at least in English) because during and after WW1, actual mountain tunnels were used for fumigating entire railroad trains minus the locomotives with cyanide using the barrel method. The tunnel ends were sealed temporarily for the duration of the gassing. After gassing was completed--after many hours--the train locomotive would be reattached by a long cable or rope to pull the train out for a day or more of open air, natural ventilation. There was no need to tie up the tunnel just so that the train could ventilate. The same kind of "natural ventilation" would have worked for gassed Jews as well, especially after the corpses had already been subjected to half-an-hour of forced-warm air ventilation inside a well-designed railroad delousing gas chamber.

One point that I think CCS has made from time to time is that the Germans would "not have done it this way" or "that way." I suspect when people hear that, it seems like a weak point because it is so hard to know what people, especially psychotic Nazi mass murders, might really be thinking. But in the case of cyanide gas chamber design and operation, we really do know what the Germans and Nazi designers were thinking. CCS is right! We know that because of the vast and extensive technical literature they generated on these subjects (in German, unfortunately for those who can't read German). It's all laid out in the German literature. Their actual thinking is revealed by their superb designs, the best gas chamber designs anywhere in the world for fumigating, or any other purpose--really!! Faurisson can not even grasp that and babbles about how American execution gas chambers were somehow superior. They are NOT at all. Faurisson was so impressed by the round handle used to open the door on the American execution chambers. WOW! The fact is that for American executions, the prison wardens can get lots and lots of money to throw at these tasks--and, like so many official bureaucrats, that is precisely what they do. The standard American execution chambers were and still are gold-plated anachronisms. Execution gas chambers with Zyklon-B would be far better because of the excellent control over the entire process. At least during the venting of an American execution gas chamber, there also should be lots of warm-air heating to raise the temperature of everything to at least ten degrees above the boiling point of cyanide (78 degrees F.). The corpse itself will be above that temperature but the walls of the chamber will be cool otherwise.

Friedrich Paul Berg
Learn everything at http://www.nazigassings.com
Nazi Gassings Never Happened! Niemand wurde vergast!

[Gébé Tremblay]

As to the "numbers" involved, that was never my question. That is simply another question among so many other possible questions.

I should have presented it in the form of a test.

[Pappy Yokum]

The point to the discussion of properties of HCN and the technical hurdles needed to overcome in its application as a lethal agent for mass murder is whether the post war testimony concerning the gassing of civilians at Nazi concentration camps is credible. The first arguments attacking this testimony by revisionists concern how Zyklon-B was supposed to be used as a fumigant and this was compared with what the eyewitnesses said they saw.

Faurisson examined the affidavits and memoirs of Hoess and others and raised questions about accounts of people dragging freshly killed corpses from gas chambers while smoking and eating, among other things. He does not find these accounts believable and argues they should be rejected for that reason.

These arguments were first made during the Cold War and travel behind the Iron Curtain was not common for Westerners. Collecting data from the locations of the alleged gassings was rare. Ditlieb Felderer was one of the first ones I know of to start doing that in the 1970's. Back then seeing a photo of an Auschwitz gas chamber or ruin was rare. Nobody had seen the plans for the Birkenau crematories. Published photos of them were rare too.

The evidence for the gassings was and still is post war testimony. Everything else is after the fact re-interpretation of contemporary documents and now some imaginative fantasizing of how the ruins were operated to kill over a million people and dispose of their bodies in less than two years.

Perhaps Professor Faurisson overstates his case when he says there is no possible way in the universe that HCN could have been used to accomplish the murder of 1 to 4 million people at Auschwitz. Perhaps it was technically possible - just like it might be technically possible and e-a-s-i-e-r to have used train fumigation tunnels. That is not the issue. It has never been the issue. The issue is whether the testimony of Hoess, Gerstein and others is credible.

I don't find it credible whether Faurisson is correct in his arguments or not. I don't find it credible whether a train tunnel or a gas producer vehicle would have been a better method for murder than the one alleged.

For argument sake, the tunnels would have worked great. Is the gas chambers at Auschwitz story now credible? Now let's say the tunnels would have been a cluster festival. Is the gas chambers at Auschwitz story now credible? In my opinion it's not under either circumstance.

Now that there is access to the alleged extermination sites and contemporaneous documentation left by those who operated them there is no longer any need to have these sorts of discussions. When Europe was divided all their side had was testimony and official endorsements. All our side had was criticism of the testimony. Now that the Cold War is over all their side has is testimony and official endorsements. Nothing new with regard to evidence for the extermination of the Jews has emerged. Every request for some sort of physical proof that the testimony is true has been met with the argument that the testimony should be enough and that disturbing the crime scenes with a forensic examination would offend religious sensibilities. Even if an extensive study was done of the sites and nothing to indicate gassings or mass murder took place at these locations, the holoscribes would come up with a "the dog ate my homework" type of excuse to explain why no evidence was found. There is no evidence to be found because what they say happened is a lie. They know it is a lie.

I agree with Kiwichap that this discussion is a train tunnel to nowhere. This sort of hypothetical exploration of alternative ways to kill several million people has been out of date for at least a decade, maybe two.

BTW: Wahrheit, the idea that the tunnels would have made getting the victims' hair and the clothes off their backs more difficult gave me a laugh. Getting that used shirt and those old shoes was a high priority: the whole extermination program was designed around that. It was fashion to kill for.

[Friedrich Paul Berg]

From the quote that Kiwichap gave above to support his contention that "HCN loves water," we have:

but small amounts of gas may be retained for long periods.

And those "small amounts" would have presented absolutely no problem for homicidal gassings unless one slept with the corpses afterward, or ate the corpses. The amounts of HCN retained are minimal--less than 250 parts per million. They are of absolutely no consequence except for such things as the taste which would certainly be an issue for foodstuffs. One Zyklon-B specialist told me that after a fumigation--if he had had a pack of cigarettes in his pocket as he was dispensing Zyklon-B in a room, the cigarettes would just not taste right afterward.

Just read your own essay, Kiwichap. I am not amused!

Friedrich Paul Berg
Learn everything at http://www.nazigassings.com
Nazi Gassings Never Happened! Niemand wurde vergast!

[Wahrheit]

BTW: Wahrheit, the idea that the tunnels would have made getting the victims' hair and the clothes off their backs more difficult gave me a laugh. Getting that used shirt and those old shoes was a high priority: the whole extermination program was designed around that. It was fashion to kill for.

Pappy, mass plunder was intricately connected to mass murder, as clothing, cash, gold, and personal jewelry were certainly sought by Nazi agencies.

And it is much easier to deal with such belongings when they are sitting in an undressing room (un-gassed) as opposed to a railcar full of cyanide gas.