Cyanide Chemistry at Auschwitz

[Hans]

Yes, ventilation could have occurred, but it would have killed the alleged SS executioners, killed and / or alerted the Jews allegedly waiting outside, and endangered the entire camp. This too has been covered in this thread.

Perhaps Hannover can demonstrate that ventilation would have killed or warned anybody in the camp, since I cannot see where this was done in this thread.

[The Warden]

There is just one thing which is interesting here. Can Revisionists show that cyanide outgassing of corpses would likely create concentrations of HCN high enough to prevent the Sonderkommandos of doing their work? If not, next question please. If yes, we can start considering this as an argument but first do the same calculation with gas masks.

Can exterminationists show that cyanide outgassing of corpses would create concentrations of HCN that would not prevent the Sonderkommandos from doing their work?

We can deduce the toxicity of outgassing corpses from descriptions of the homicidal gassings. A rough screening of the descriptions indicates that there is no case described where a Sonderkommando was killed or severely effected (so he was prevented to this work) by hydrogen cyanide while removing the corpses. Thus, we can conclude that the cyanide outgassing of corpses did likely not result in HCN concentrations which prevented the Sonderkommandos from doing their work (with or without gas mask). This is kind of empirical evidence. Even though we do not know and have modeled the full chemical and physical processes involved, we can follow from the observations and descriptions that a critical concentration was usually not achieved.

If Revisionists disagree that cyanide outgassing of corpses was no severe problem, even though it follows from what I mentioned above and is based on actual evidence, the burden of proof is on them to model those chemical and processes and show that the cyanide concentration should have reached critical levels.

I asked a very simple question, which has yet to be answered. Do we have records of gas masks and filters for the gas masks?
If the claims of Believers are to be believed, we're talking about 2,000 bodies with lungs full of HCN gas in a small room with zero to very little ventilation. If someone was removing these bodies, which would be piled on top of each other by the door(s) due to panic before death, then we must continue to follow the logic (term used loosely) of the Believers and understand that the timeline needed these 2,000 bodies removed quite quickly (some would same impossibly). The bodies full of HCN gas would be expelling that gas in large amounts to the people trying to remove them. They would stepping all over dead Jews along with dragging them around.

If Believers want to say the HCN gas from the dead bodies wouldn't cause problems for the people removing the bodies, then I'd like to see some tests which Hans seems to infer are nowhere to be found. If Believers think the people removing the corpses were at risk, then I'd like to see the testing which Hans seems to infer doesn't exist making the original claim even more susceptible to non-belief. I don't feel the need to prove anything either way since the whole process dreamed up by Believers has been rendered implausible. But if a Believer can address my question without a returning a question, then I'll read along anxiously.

But since it seems no testing has been done on the concept of "outgassing", it would appear all the "deducing" in this thread should include the idea that the gas chambers never existed. The lack of information doesn't point to the HCN not causing a problem for the people allegedly removing corpses, it makes the idea the bodies were never there the most plausible.

[The Warden]

I have a question - does the delousing chamber bricks have blue staining INSIDE the brick? If the cyanide went through the brick, the entire interior of the brick would be blue, because there would have been both iron and cyanide throughout the interior.

It would have necessarily penetrated the brick from the inside in order to reach the outside. Seems like someone is asking you a very stupid question. It also sounds like someone is telling you that blue paint was used (laughable and already shot down), or that disinfected mattresses were leaned against the structure .... another absurd canard debunked here.

Have you read this entire thread?

- Hannover

Actually Prussian Blue on the outside did not necessary have to penetrate through the brick from inside, unless you can rule out that they did not use cyanide solutions to desinfest large pieces like mattresses and laid them at the outside of the buildings.

Yes Hans, because if you're going to disinfest something, you want to do it outside where the actual pesticide can travel everywhere the wind blows except on the object you'd be trying to delouse.

Of course, with the amount of mattresses, there would be staining on the side of every building in the camp, even if it was possible to control the direction of the gas outside.
And who would think to move the people out of the areas with the mattresses and delouse those rooms with the mattresses in place, right? If the Believer stories are accurate, this process could've been miraculously done and ventilated while the residents were out taking a 5 minute stroll around camp!

The desperate nature of this mattress claim is more evident than ever.
God forbid any Believer see a brick with blue staining on the inside, then the same blue staining on the outside, and understand the brick would be blue throughout.
Perhaps a foundation and museum be set up for the genocide of WWII mattresses?

[Ray Barren]

I asked a very simple question, which has yet to be answered. Do we have records of gas masks and filters for the gas masks?
If the claims of Believers are to be believed, we're talking about 2,000 bodies with lungs full of HCN gas in a small room with zero to very little ventilation. If someone was removing these bodies, which would be piled on top of each other by the door(s) due to panic before death, then we must continue to follow the logic (term used loosely) of the Believers and understand that the timeline needed these 2,000 bodies removed quite quickly (some would same impossibly). The bodies full of HCN gas would be expelling that gas in large amounts to the people trying to remove them. They would stepping all over dead Jews along with dragging them around.

If Believers want to say the HCN gas from the dead bodies wouldn't cause problems for the people removing the bodies, then I'd like to see some tests which Hans seems to infer are nowhere to be found. If Believers think the people removing the corpses were at risk, then I'd like to see the testing which Hans seems to infer doesn't exist making the original claim even more susceptible to non-belief. I don't feel the need to prove anything either way since the whole process dreamed up by Believers has been rendered implausible. But if a Believer can address my question without a returning a question, then I'll read along anxiously.

But since it seems no testing has been done on the concept of "outgassing", it would appear all the "deducing" in this thread should include the idea that the gas chambers never existed. The lack of information doesn't point to the HCN not causing a problem for the people allegedly removing corpses, it makes the idea the bodies were never there the most plausible.

I'm amazed at the attempts to 'disprove' the Holocaust, and this ranks among them. Without any real grounds for doing so (no medical research) it is just assumed that cyanide within the victims lungs would have posed a problem. Why? The lethal amount would have been incorporated into the person's body through their respiration, meaning that cyanide would have been 'lost' from further exposure. The amount of cyanide within a victim's lungs, but not bonded to the body would hardly be substantial, given how small human lungs are. And without any respiratory system if the gas leaves (that is an if) it would not be quick, meaning that a high concentration will not be immediate.

So really there might be a litre or two of cyanide exposed air in the victim's lungs, coming out slowly from the body, and also subject to 30 minutes of mechanical ventilation. This is not a major danger, with or without the gas masks which are testified to by numerous sources (Jews and nonJews). And the number of persons inside the gas chambers would not usually rise above 1000, half of your figure. There were three other gas chamber buildings and two bunkers to use for gassings during the busy time of the Hungarian deportations, which would be the only time when a 2000 figure might have been achieved.

Re: deloused mattresses outside, do we have pictures of the walls where one could match stains on the inside of the delousing chamber with those that exist on the outside? Such would prove that the stains came from the inside. I have tried to compare different pictures of the chamber walls, but no such matches that I could find.

[The Warden]

I see Ray Barren can offer no proof either way of the effects of residual HCN gas in the lungs of the "victims" either.

Although his opinion is certainly noted.

We should also keep in mind the fact it takes less gas to kill people than the common louse. So the residual gas in the lungs of, for the sake of argument, 1,000 Jews would certainly be a danger to a few folks carrying the bodies from an alleged sealed room.

[The Warden]

Re: deloused mattresses outside, do we have pictures of the walls where one could match stains on the inside of the delousing chamber with those that exist on the outside? Such would prove that the stains came from the inside. I have tried to compare different pictures of the chamber walls, but no such matches that I could find.

Let us not spend too much time trying to make Ray Barren understand that cyanide doesn't form symmetrical patterns through objects.

[astro3]

Excellent video of Fred Leuchter speaking at the Iranian revisionist conference:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=arZnnUOJ ... r_embedded

[Hannover]

Ray Barren said:

I'm amazed at the attempts to 'disprove' the Holocaust, and this ranks among them. Without any real grounds for doing so (no medical research) it is just assumed that cyanide within the victims lungs would have posed a problem. Why? The lethal amount would have been incorporated into the person's body through their respiration, meaning that cyanide would have been 'lost' from further exposure. The amount of cyanide within a victim's lungs, but not bonded to the body would hardly be substantial, given how small human lungs are. And without any respiratory system if the gas leaves (that is an if) it would not be quick, meaning that a high concentration will not be immediate.

So really there might be a litre or two of cyanide exposed air in the victim's lungs, coming out slowly from the body, and also subject to 30 minutes of mechanical ventilation. This is not a major danger, with or without the gas masks which are testified to by numerous sources (Jews and nonJews). And the number of persons inside the gas chambers would not usually rise above 1000, half of your figure. There were three other gas chamber buildings and two bunkers to use for gassings during the busy time of the Hungarian deportations, which would be the only time when a 2000 figure might have been achieved.

Re: deloused mattresses outside, do we have pictures of the walls where one could match stains on the inside of the delousing chamber with those that exist on the outside? Such would prove that the stains came from the inside. I have tried to compare different pictures of the chamber walls, but no such matches that I could find.

Like an ostrich with it's head in the sand, Mr. Barren obviously hasn't read this thread. He knows nothing about what he opposes.

- Hannover

[Cloud]

We can deduce the toxicity of outgassing corpses from descriptions of the homicidal gassings. A rough screening of the descriptions indicates that there is no case described where a Sonderkommando was killed or severely effected (so he was prevented to this work) by hydrogen cyanide while removing the corpses. Thus, we can conclude that the cyanide outgassing of corpses did likely not result in HCN concentrations which prevented the Sonderkommandos from doing their work (with or without gas mask). This is kind of empirical evidence. Even though we do not know and have modeled the full chemical and physical processes involved, we can follow from the observations and descriptions that a critical concentration was usually not achieved.

So your argument essentially comes down to "the witnesses said so, therefore it happened and is possible." A real pity, because I was hoping you would construct something a bit more rigorous and dazzle me with figures, graphs, equations, Greek letters, and units of measure. Perhaps that is asking too much.

If Revisionists disagree that cyanide outgassing of corpses was no severe problem, even though it follows from what I mentioned above and is based on actual evidence, the burden of proof is on them to model those chemical and processes and show that the cyanide concentration should have reached critical levels.

So I take it from this then that you would also argue that the burden of proof was on the tens of thousands of stranded ordinary citizens of Japan to show that radiation levels at the Fukushima reactor following the Tōhoku earthquake and tsunami are no problem?

[Ray Barren]

Like an ostrich with it's head in the sand, Mr. Barren obviously hasn't read this thread. He knows nothing about what he opposes.

- Hannover

Perhaps specific points against my post that I supposedly "know nothing about" can be pointed out to me?

[Hannover]

Like an ostrich with it's head in the sand, Mr. Barren obviously hasn't read this thread. He knows nothing about what he opposes.

- Hannover

Perhaps specific points against my post that I supposedly "know nothing about" can be pointed out to me?

There is no need for me to repeat what you have refused to read. Ray, I can't read this thread for you.

I.E.: You expressed interest in various cyanide issues as if they had not been addressed by Revisionists, which is entirely incorrect. They have been well covered in this thread. Simple as that.

- Hannover

[Hannover]

I will address one point by Ray Barren sparing him the effort to read this thread for that answer, he said:

I'm amazed at the attempts to 'disprove' the Holocaust, and this ranks among them. Without any real grounds for doing so (no medical research) it is just assumed that cyanide within the victims lungs would have posed a problem. Why? The lethal amount would have been incorporated into the person's body through their respiration, meaning that cyanide would have been 'lost' from further exposure. The amount of cyanide within a victim's lungs, but not bonded to the body would hardly be substantial, given how small human lungs are. And without any respiratory system if the gas leaves (that is an if) it would not be quick, meaning that a high concentration will not be immediate.

So really there might be a litre or two of cyanide exposed air in the victim's lungs, coming out slowly from the body, and also subject to 30 minutes of mechanical ventilation. This is not a major danger, with or without the gas masks which are testified to by numerous sources (Jews and nonJews). And the number of persons inside the gas chambers would not usually rise above 1000, half of your figure. There were three other gas chamber buildings and two bunkers to use for gassings during the busy time of the Hungarian deportations, which would be the only time when a 2000 figure might have been achieved.

Apparently Ray is confused and not familiar with actual storyline, I'll help him. Some of what he says is irrelevant to the cyanide issue he himself attempts to make.

Concerning Zyklon-B, remember, the storyline says that in Auschwitz/Birkenau, Jews were gassed at Kremas II & III (the largest of the alleged 'gas chambers') at the rate of 2000 per batch, every 20 minutes (said Auschwitz curator Franciszek Piper), for days on end. The shysters are forced to use the 20 minute length per 2000 in order to meet the numbers they claim were gassed. Another example of them painting themselves into a corner with their own lies. As the expression goes, 'once you lie, you must continue to lie.'

It takes many hours for Zyklon-B to release all of it's cyanide from the carrier material. So, if the doors to crematoriums/gas chambers were opened to let in the alleged next 2000, after a mere 20 minutes, the Zyklon-B would still be releasing it's cyanide load, therefore creating a danger for the labor camp as a whole.

The story also says that the Zyklon-B was deposited into containers which were lowered into mesh 'columns' which were supposedly erected below each of the fabled 'holes' on top of the crematoriums/'gas chambers'. After 20 minutes, these containers were supposedly lifted up & out of the mesh columns by SS men in gas masks on top of the 'gas chamber' roof. Again, the Zyklon-B is still emitting it's deadly load into the general environment, AND cyanide gas would still flow out of the opened doors.

Sure, cyanide would necessarily still be inside the lungs of those supposedly gassed, but that problem is much smaller than the general release of cyanide into the camp environment that would necessarily occur if the storyline was true.

And then there's the alleged next batch waiting by the doors; they would obviously be impacted. Therefore, the alleged 'tricked into thinking they were getting showers' canard falls apart, as does the alleged length of time per gassing.

As for the gas masks themselves, no doubt they were used in the delousing facilities. And gas masks, supposedly used by the SS in the 'extermination' procedure falls apart simply by knowing that once the doors were opened (after 20 minutes), those outside would be in mortal danger. Imagine saying to the Jews, 'OK folks, ignore the man on the roof in a gas mask, holding a container of active Zyklon-B, and also please ignore the cyanide which is killing those of you in line who just got a whiff, you're just going to get a shower'. It's laughable.


- Hannover

[blake121666]

I thought it was just one facility where Kula columns are alleged - krema III wasn't it (based on Tauber)? The general story for the rest was that some SS man opened a window and tossed in Zyklon-B pellets isn't it? The Kula column story is another ad hoc make it up as you go along creation of people to rationalize ridiculous claims. Why would Germans dual-purpose an insecticide which needs to be heated and outgasses over a period of about 20 hours for these large scale mass murder operations? The logistical problems with the weirdo choices we're told the Germans made just boggles the mind. They sure as hell didn't make it easy for themselves when any random person on the street could think up some better way. Nevertheless, it seems it is we who have to prove the obvious falseness of Holocaust claims. The AR camp claims are even more ridiculous than these Auschwitz ones.

[Moderator3]

Ray Barren,
You are either completely unfamiliar with the story you're trying to defend, as evidenced by your responses here, or your responses are aimed at confusing the thread. Either way, bye. Your last post was deleted.

[The Warden]

It takes many hours for Zyklon-B to release all of it's cyanide from the carrier material. So, if the doors to crematoriums/gas chambers were opened to let in the alleged next 2000, after a mere 20 minutes, the Zyklon-B would still be releasing it's cyanide load, therefore creating a danger for the labor camp as a whole.

The story also says that the Zyklon-B was deposited into containers which were lowered into mesh 'columns' which were supposedly erected below each of the fabled 'holes' on top of the crematoriums/'gas chambers'. After 20 minutes, these containers were supposedly lifted up & out of the mesh columns by SS men in gas masks on top of the 'gas chamber' roof. Again, the Zyklon-B is still emitting it's deadly load into the general environment, AND cyanide gas would still flow out of the opened doors.

Sure, cyanide would necessarily still be inside the lungs of those supposedly gassed, but that problem is much smaller than the general release of cyanide into the camp environment that would necessarily occur if the storyline was true.

And then there's the alleged next batch waiting by the doors; they would obviously be impacted. Therefore, the alleged 'tricked into thinking they were getting showers' canard falls apart, as does the alleged length of time per gassing.

One can only wonder how the Germans controlled the wind so no Jews waiting in line were gassed before they entered the fairy tale shower rooms.
Or in any other direction for that matter.
But for every Jewish victim, there's a ridiculous claim trying to support the continuous crumbling storyline.
Maybe the "geysers of blood" made the gas rise?