Inbound train records, but no outbound records. Why?

[offline Hannover]

The Believers are big on the 'where did they go' reply. This canard is used for transports to labor camps. The story says that new arrivals that went unregistered were immediately gassed. The lack of records of outbound trains, the Believer's claim, is proof of their gassing. Leaving aside for the moment the scientific impossibility of the gassings as alleged, their story just doesn't hold up.

points:
We know there are plenty of train transport records TO various camps, we have none which show trains LEAVING. Why is that?

- Didn't the trains go somewhere after their trips to the alleged 'death camps'?

- Does anyone really think the Germans didn't keep records of where their trains went, full or empty?

- Would the Germans deliberately destroy their records of outbound trains while not destroying the records of inbound trains?

- So where did they outbound transport records go?

The lack of these outgoing train records is damning to the story.

Hannover

[offlineRichard Perle]

Interesting. Are there outgoing records, full or empty, for any of the Western camps? That would be worth finding out.

[offlineVallon]

Mattogno & Graf wite in their "Treblinka - extermination camp or transit camp":

It also is clear from the few preserved train schedules that the trains were emptied at Treblinka and returned to their departure point without passengers.

http://www.vho.org/GB/Books/t/10.html

Hilberg also found some of these few preserved schedules, and reproduced them in his book Sonderzüge nach Auschwitz.

[offlineTurpitz]

few preserved train schedules

There should be hundreds of them if not thousands, so where are they?

As usual a "few" convenient scraps are available, I cannot understand the logic of destroying departures yet leaving arrivals intact. these methods would do nothing for the Germans if they wanted to cover their tracks, in fact it seems they were trying to frame themselves by using such silly logic.

[offline Hannover]

Quote:
It also is clear from the few preserved train schedules that the trains were emptied at Treblinka and returned to their departure point without passengers.

Beautiful. This simply confirms that the Germans kept records which are curiously missing except a few. Where are the massive amounts of others?

And take note that this is Treblinka*, not Auschwitz, Treblinka could well have been the final point in the distribution of labor which had passed through Auschwitz unregistered. Therefore, returning empty makes perfect sense. So, where are the massive outbound records from Auschwitz?

* the claimed mass grave of 900,000 Jews has never been shown

Then Vallon claims:

Hilberg also found some of these few preserved schedules, and reproduced them in his book Sonderzüge nach Auschwitz.

So, let's see them. Why only a few when there should be thousands.

They are conspicuous by their absence.

- Hannover

[offline Hannover]

In addition:

Assuming that Treblinka was the end of the line in a particular schedule, then we can see where Mattogno & Graf would write that they returned empty, that makes sense.

However, if these are only schedules then we can see quite clearly that the Germans kept records, but one has to wonder:

1. Where are the huge amounts of other schedules?

2. Where are the actual manifest lists?...... which stated what & how many were aboard the trains.
note: The incoming train records do give numbers.

Schedules and manifest lists are not the same. Where are the manifest lists?

A few, comparatively miniscule number of schedules that may have slipped through the 'holocau$t' Industry filtering process are devastating to their claims.

- Hannover

[offlineVallon]

Then Vallon claims:

Hilberg also found some of these few preserved schedules, and reproduced them in his book Sonderzüge nach Auschwitz.

So, let's see them. Why only a few when there should be thousands.

They are conspicuous by their absence.

Hilberg gives this one as document 27:

Code: Select all

Fahrplananorndning 248

Ab 6. August 1942 verkehrt bis auf weiteres täglich noch ein
Sonderzug mit Umsiedlern von Warschau Danz Bf nach Treblinka
und Leerzug zurück wie folgt:

        Warschau Danz Bf - Malkinia - Treblinka

Warschau Danz Bf                 ab 12:25
Warschau Marki         an 12:40     12:59
Tluszcz                   14:00     12:27
Malkinia                  15:54     16:13
Treblinka              an 16:20


       Treblinka - Malkinia - Warschau Danz Bf

Treblinka                        ab 19:00   im Sonderplan
Malkinia               an 19:07     19:32
Tluszcz                   20:55     21:38
Warschau Marki            22:35     23:02
Warschau Danz Bf       an 23:19

Translation:

Schedule #248

From August 6 1942 onward and untill further notice a special train with settlers wil leave daily from Warsaw Danziger Bahnhof to Treblinka, and empty train (Leerzug) back as follows.

These might be the same documents that Mattogno and Graf are referring to.

[offline Hannover]

Ah, as I expected:

Schedule #248

From August 6 1942 onward and untill further notice a special train with settlers will leave daily from Warsaw Danziger Bahnhof to Treblinka, and empty train (Leerzug) back as follows.

"Settlers" that were being, well, settled in the newly occupied areas. Which confirms that Treblinka was merely a stopping point for German rail traffic and that Treblinka was hardly the 'death camp' that is alleged. And also as expected, the train was necessarily empty* upon return to Warsaw, of which we have no information that those utilizing this schedule were all Jews.

* We should take note of the return schedule, return stops do not speak well of an 'empty' train immediately upon leaving Treblinka. Empty would seem to mean that is was empty upon return to it's original starting point.

So, again, we have one meager schedule and no manifest lists and absolutely nothing from Auschwitz, even though shyster Hilberg titles his book that this is allgedly from as 'Sonderzüge nach Auschwitz'.

Well then, where are the train outbound records?

[offlinegrenadier]

Vallon wrote:

Schedule #248

From August 6 1942 onward and untill further notice a special train with settlers wil leave daily from Warsaw Danziger Bahnhof to Treblinka, and empty train (Leerzug) back as follows.
These might be the same documents that Mattogno and Graf are referring to.

Yes, they are the same.

Vallon quoted from Mattogno & Graf "Treblinka - extermination camp or transit camp":

It also is clear from the few preserved train schedules that the trains were emptied at Treblinka and returned to their departure point without passengers.

Indeed, but what does that mean? I remember in the same book, Mattogno mentions several witnesses(in connection to the Demjanjuk trial) describe how they were transported to Treblinka, spent like a day or so there, and then were transferred somewhere else. Therefore if a train came back empty from Treblinka, this is no proof that Treblinka was a final destination.

[offlineRichard Perle]

I think the change in rail gauge at Treblinka is something to consider here.

http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t= ... inka+gauge

[offlineTurpitz]

All the departure lists have just been either destroyed or hidden by the industry, it's all pretty basic stuff.

[offline Hannover]

Right Turp, that is my point.

'holocau$t' Industry sources such as Danuta Czech's 'Auschwitz Calendar' are quick to cite inbound train records as proof for their gassings claims via numbers of Jews transported. But there is nothing to show that those on those inbound trains were gassed; and the fact that the outbound records have been conveniently destroyed or hidden, utterly shatters the 'holocau$t claims.

- Hannover

[offline Hannover]

I think this thread has great relevance to:

'Where did they go? Killed?'
http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=1083

Where did they go?
Wherever the hidden/destroyed outgoing train records indicated.

- Hannover

[offlineReinhard]

Mattogno & Graf wite in their "Treblinka - extermination camp or transit camp":

It also is clear from the few preserved train schedules that the trains were emptied at Treblinka and returned to their departure point without passengers.

http://www.vho.org/GB/Books/t/10.html

Hilberg also found some of these few preserved schedules, and reproduced them in his book Sonderzüge nach Auschwitz.

Given the theory of Treblinka as a transit and delousing camp is correct, this would make sense.
The Jewish Ghettos in Warsaw and elsewhere were emptied and the Jews were brought to Treblinka, Belzec and Sobibor, where they stayed for one day or so (as grenadier mentioned above) and then sent further eastward.
It's obvious that the trains had to go back to Warsaw etc. empty, in order to bring the next trainload of deported Jews to Treblinka.

Those who had been deloused there would of course have had to be transported further on by clean trains, because otherwise the whole delousing procedure would have been in vain.
That's the way delousing works: you arrive on the dirty side, have to undress, get deloused, get on the clean side new (cleaned) clothes and continue the transport in clean trains.

[offlineFreeman]

There are actually a fair number of sources on the "outbound" transfers.

For one, consider the case of Anne Frank. Anne Frank and her family were deported to Auschwitz on September 5, 1944. Anne and her sister Margot were transferred from the transit camp in Auschwitz II to Bergen-Belsen on October 28, 1944, along with some 1,300 other female Jews.

This is referenced in Danuta Czech's "The Auschwitz Chronicle 1939- 1945" See p. 741. Czech references APMO (Archive of the State Auschwitz Museum.)