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Those Prussian Blues Just Won't Wash

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Those Prussian Blues Just Won't Wash

Postby Wahrheit » Fri Oct 26, 2007 9:53 pm

A primary excuse given by believers to account for the lack of Prussian Blue staining on the walls of the alleged homicidal gas chambers is the supposed washings that took place in the morgues following the gassing operation. As Green and McCarthy in their “Iron Blues” article hypothesized to account for the missing stains:

Most importantly one must recall that the gas chambers were hosed down with after gassings to clean up blood and excrement.”
http://www.holocaust-history.org/auschw ... ndex.shtml


The hoaxer-duo then follows up the claim in their “Chemistry is not the Science” with the point that:

“Considering that the gas chambers were washed with water, it is no wonder that very little if any Prussian blue formed there.”http://www.holocaust-history.org/auschwitz/chemistry/not-the-science/


Obviously, the supposed follow-up washing of the gas chambers is an important pillar for the Holocaust story line.

Yet let us step back and assess the evidence for the supposed Prussian Blue removal techniques. There appears to be three eyewitness accounts that are relied upon to support the gas chamber washings: Henry Tauber, Miklos Nyszili, and Daniel Bennahmias. We will deal with each’s account one by one, all in regards to the post-gassing goings-on of Krema II.

Tauber

“The water tap was in the corridor and a rubber hose was run from it to wash the floor of the gas chamber…”
p.484 Pressac, “Technique and Operation of the Gas Chambers


Notice the target of the washings by the Sonderkommando in Tauber’s account. It is not the ceiling, nor the walls, but rather the floor.

Had victims actually been murdered in the morgue, excrement and blood would likely be found spread across the chamber’s floor, causing the floor cleaning that Tauber describes; however, a hosed and sprayed floor is not a hosed and sprayed wall, where the cyanide would cling to begin the Prussian Blue formation process.

Therefore, we can conclude at least for Tauber’s experiences, that the walls and any cyanide residues thereon would have remained untouched from any floor washings in the gas chamber.

In honor of the World Series, that’s strike 1.

Nyszili

“The Sonderkommando squad, outfitted with large rubber boots, lined up around the hill of bodies and flooded it with powerful jets of water. This was necessary because the final act of those who die by drowning or by gas is an involuntary defecation…”
p.52, Nyszili, “Auschwitz


Again I draw the reader’s attention to the specifics of what Nyszili said. It’s the bodies alleged to be sprayed, not the ceiling, and not the walls, which have been tested for cyanide residues by numerous experts and found lacking.

Would the walls remain dry from the “powerful jets of water” hosing all those “bodies”? Likely not, yet the walls would have been moist anyway from the extra high humidity that developed in the room. How significant would indirect and likely misty spray have been that only certain portions of the gas chamber walls and ceilings would be rinsed?

Take this for example. How clean are your shower walls following your hygienic activities? Moist, but are those dirt or soap spots still there? Absolutely.

Therefor we can conclude that in Nyszili’s quote, the walls were likely to have been left largely alone, as they were not hosed down directly by the jets of water, and would likely still be holding on to significant cyanide residues.

Strike 2.

Bennahmias

“Once the gas chamber had been cleared, it must be hosed free of all traces of blood and excrement-but mainly blood-and then it must be whitewashed with a quickdrying paint. This step is crucial and it is done each time the gas chamber is emptied, for the dying have scratched and gouged the walls in their death throes. The walls are embedded with blood and bits of flesh, and none of the next transport must suspect that he is walking into anything other than a shower. This takes two or three hours.”
p.46, Holocaust Odyssey of Daniel Bennahmias, Sonderkommando


Although he did not specify the walls as being washed, we will accept the likely meaning of Bennahmias to be that the walls and floors were hosed clean, supposedly each time the gas chambers were operated, yet leaving the ceiling alone. Note that this is the only account that actually says anything regarding the walls of the gas chambers being cleaned. The absence of Prussian Blue rests upon one man’s account!

Yet is Bennahmias deserving of such credibility and importance? How has his account, where able to be verified, stood up to comparisons with the extensive Auschwitz camp documents? Why is it that the only time the hoaxers use Bennahmias is in one instance, to help explain the missing Prussian Blues?

For instance, where are the camp order requests or the shipment records for the hundreds of containers bringing in the Sonderkommand’s “quickdrying paint”? Why do no other survivors, nor Nazi commanders for that matter, testify that the walls were painted following each gassing? Is there any evidence from the remains of Krema II to prove that the walls were continuously painted, as would almost certainly exist?

What else has Bennahmias said regarding his ‘experiences’ as a Sonderkommando? Let us examine a few of his quotes.

“With my own eyes, I saw a German officer shoot a baby of three or four months of age once in the eye and then once in the ear, but the baby still moved its hand, so he shot it again and then dropped it on the cement.” P.40


Two close quartered head shots directly through an infant’s brain, and it’s still alive? Not impossible, but certainly unlikely.

What would the other prisoners have thought of this? Would they actually ignore such an event? Impossible. Any right-felted human would be outraged by such a monstrous act, and take action or revenge; and yet we are led to believe that the selection and gassing process went smoothly? Yeah, right…

Bennahmias goes on:

“Another time, I witnessed two SS officers toss a dozen or so children in over the heads of the others already crammed into the gas chamber. Now, if that doesn’t make you, let’s say, different than you were before, I will be very surprised.” P.41


A dozen or so children tossed in over the soon-to-be victims heads? And they are still expecting showers? Are you kidding me? If children start getting thrown in, the adults standing in the room are certainly going to do something about it. And yet, the gassings went smoothly?

On another occasion, Bennahmias describes what occurred following a Nazi inspection that found a member of the SDK with some prisoner gold.

“A little later, the witnesses to his punishment recounted that the Germans doused him with gasoline, set him afire, and instructed him to climb the wire fence, telling him that if he reached the top they would “set him free.” When he got there, however, they shot him.” P.44


So a man, doused in gasoline and then with his body set ablaze, actually has the mental and physical stamina and capacity to focus on climbing up a fence and crossing it? His heart rate and adrenaline would be through the roof, lowering how deep he could actually think. And yet he’s supposed to have climbed a fence, as his bodies’ engulfed in flames?

Bennahmias also shoots the Holocaust story in the foot, stating how after the division of the Krema II gas chamber, the smaller section was employed, and allowed to remain sealed and untouched for “four or five days”, building up a strong stench among the bodies. Four or five days would have given the Prussian Blue more than enough time to firmly remain in place inside the gas chambers, with nothing that the SDK could do about it.

And to believe in Bennahmias, one must ignore his average life expectancy of a Sonderkommando, which he placed at 2-3 months, but not more than 6 prior to “elimination.” Conveniently, Bennahmias outlived the life expectancy, as did many others. Yeah, right…

The Holocaust falls upon its lies once again, and those Prussian Blues, no matter how hard believers try, just won’t wash.

Some more advanced believers will claim that the wall washing is of no importance, and that the important factor is the addition of water to the room’s water equilibrium, which some claim would prevent and/or wash away the cyanide residues. For instance, Roberto Muehlenkamp states:

“Whether the walls or the ceiling were washed is without importance. What
matters is that the hosing of the gas chambers increased the level of humidity in the chambers so much that the equilibrium concentration of CN- ions necessary to the formation of blue staining, if reached at all during the gassings, turned into a concentration too low to allow for the formation of iron blues.”
http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t= ... bennahmias


Unfortunately for them, the presence of humidity and of a wet environment actually enhances Prussian Blue formation. In Dr. Hans-Gert Bachman’s “Prevention of Biodeterioration of Wooden Objects of Art: Influence of Fumigation with Hydrocyanic Acid on Metals”, in which the heavily studied Bachman experimented with eleven different types of metal material and the effects of dry and humid HCN thereon. Bachman’s experiments found that a moister environment brought about Prussian Blue formation as opposed to dry environments.

In the sub-section “Suggestion to Prevent Layer Formation”:

“Fumigation of rooms and buildings with HCN should preferably be carried out under relatively low humidity. Our experiments have shown that with relative humidities up to 30%, formation of corrosion layers on metals is either absent or negligible. Prior to fumigation, the humidity should be measured with a calibrated hygrometer.
Rooms likely to be inherently humid (churches, vaults, basements, etc.) should be heated and/or ventilated before fumigation, either with already existing heating installations or with portable heaters, until the relative humidity has been sufficiently lowered. Drying agents, such as burnt lime or silica gel in open dishes, will further reduce humidity. These precautions and provisions require little effort compared with the troublesome removal of discolorations and layers after fumigation.”


Bachman also found that it the immediate formation after fumigation had a “limited solubility” in water, and even withstood “polishing to some degree”. It’s going to take a lot more than gas chamber showers or a rooms water equilibrium to wipe away the problem of Prussian Blues that has tripped up the believers.

Strike 3, and they're out!!
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Postby Laurentz Dahl » Sat Oct 27, 2007 6:48 am

Wahrheit wrote:On another occasion, Bennahmias describes what occurred following a Nazi inspection that found a member of the SDK with some prisoner gold.

“A little later, the witnesses to his punishment recounted that the Germans doused him with gasoline, set him afire, and instructed him to climb the wire fence, telling him that if he reached the top they would “set him free.” When he got there, however, they shot him.” P.44



Szlama/Schlomo Dragon tells the same story about a Sonderkommando who got caught hiding gold in Greif's book Wir weinte ohne Tranen, but in the Dragon version Oberscharfuehrer Moll "the Troll" first burned the poor man's head inside one of the cremation ovens(!) and then forced him to run towards the electric fence, where he received a shock and fell down dead (it's on page 160 of the Fischer second edition). So there was no shooting and no deception incolved according to Dragon. To put it more bluntly, the two Greek Jews are embroidering the same tall tale in different ways.

By the way, what's the Bennahmias book like? Is it a transcribed interview like the Greif book or more in the vein of for example Sereny's Stangl book?
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Postby MrNobody » Sat Oct 27, 2007 10:12 pm

Wahrheit wrote:
Bennahmias

“Once the gas chamber had been cleared, it must be hosed free of all traces of blood and excrement-but mainly blood-and then it must be whitewashed with a quickdrying paint. This step is crucial and it is done each time the gas chamber is emptied, for the dying have scratched and gouged the walls in their death throes. The walls are embedded with blood and bits of flesh, and none of the next transport must suspect that he is walking into anything other than a shower. This takes two or three hours.
p.46, Holocaust Odyssey of Daniel Bennahmias, Sonderkommando



What camp was this alleged to have occurred at?
so a minimum of 2 to 3 hours between gassings......
Isn't this a major plot hole?
In a 24 hour day you are now only seeing a maximum of between 8 & 12 gassings, what is the order of reduction for gassing in this camp now, by half or two thirds?
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Postby Hannover » Sun Oct 28, 2007 12:15 am

Have a look here:

the lack of cyanide residue in the alleged 'gas chambers'
http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=392

and here:

Cyanide Chemistry at Auschwitz
http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=4111

It's no contest. The use of real science, logic, and rational thought demolish the impossible 'holocaust' lies.

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If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.
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Postby Wahrheit » Sun Oct 28, 2007 8:24 am

Laurentz Dahl wrote:To put it more bluntly, the two Greek Jews are embroidering the same tall tale in different ways.


Interesting Laurentz. It'd be interesting to see how many these "burning Sonderkommando" themes make an appearance in the literature.

Laurentz Dahl wrote:By the way, what's the Bennahmias book like? Is it a transcribed interview like the Greif book or more in the vein of for example Sereny's Stangl book?


I have yet to read the Stangl book but the book's author, Rebecca Fromer, uses Holocaust literature at the time of her writing and ties Bennahmias' statements into it, although focusing on his specific "experiences." It's the Bennahmias interviews tied to the literature, although a good amount is stated, and not directly quoted from Bennahmias, leading one to suspect that Fromer's has done one hell of an editing job.

It's also of interest that Fromer tried to aim Bennahmias against "deniers" in questioning.
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Postby Wahrheit » Sun Oct 28, 2007 8:33 am

MrNobody wrote:What camp was this alleged to have occurred at?


Auschwitz-Birkenau, Krema II.

MrNobody wrote:so a minimum of 2 to 3 hours between gassings......
Isn't this a major plot hole
In a 24 hour day you are now only seeing a maximum of between 8 & 12 gassings, what is the order of reduction for gassing in this camp now, by half or two thirds?


MrNobody, you are far too generous for the Holocaust story.

Here is a gassing timeline as given by Bennahmias:
-2 hours to clear dressing rooms of "every scrap and attire and every parscel" of clothing of the "victims" before the next transport arrived
-8 hours to extricate the corpses and send them up to the crematoria, after removing their gold teeth and hair
-2-3 hours to clean and paint the gas chamber
-10 minutes to actually kill the 2-3,000 Jews

So MrNobody, you're looking at between 12 and 13 hours for a gassing to occur. Then you gotta figure the time it took for the next transport to arrive and undergo "selections", and then be processed into the "gas chamber."

In short, two gassings a day would be an overestimate.
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Postby Inquisitive » Sun Oct 28, 2007 8:44 am

Rudolf has photos of the staining outside the disinfection chambers for clothing. If water washes away the blue, wouldn't the weather after 65 or so years of rain, snow, and ice remove the blue there too?
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Postby Wahrheit » Sun Oct 28, 2007 9:42 am

Inquisitive wrote:If water washes away the blue, wouldn't the weather after 65 or so years of rain, snow, and ice remove the blue there too?


Theres a differentiation between the actual Prussian Blue compound (once formed), and the stages it takes for Prussian Blue to form.

Water is needed by Fe3+ to gather with [Fe(CN)6]4- to form the Prussian Blue compound, Fe4[Fe(CN)6]3. The wetter a wall is the better because it advances the compounding process.

Thats one reason why it is so odd that Prussian Blue formed in the delousing chamber walls, which were heated and above ground (therefor less humid), and not in the alleged 'gas chambers', which were below ground and packed with humans (therefore very humid), and unheated.

Once the compound forms, it becomes largely insoluble in water. More advanced believers understand this, but many fall-in-line infantry believers will repeat the false claim that water would have washed and eroded the Prussian Blue away, despite the scientific knowledge and agreement world-wide to the contrary.

Thats why the more top-notch hoaxers focus their water efforts in the pre-formation stage, where they hope they can wash those Prussian Blues away. Unfortunately for them, by the time their water-hosing rescuers would have arrived to begin spraying the gas chambers, it would have been too late.
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Postby Wahrheit » Tue Nov 06, 2007 3:18 pm

It's recently been drawn to my attention that witless believer Roberto Muehlenkamp has attempted a refutation of my "Prussian Blues Just Won't Wash" on another forum. http://p102.ezboard.com/frodohforumfrm18.showMessageRange?topicID=161.topic&start=51&stop=55

What follows is a response to those points.

Roberto wrote:
In this time aspect, homicidal gassings, which lasted half an hour at most before the gas was ventilated out, differed from fumigations, be it in the Auschwitz-Birkenau fumigation chambers or in the rooms mentioned by Dr. Bachmann, where the HCN can be assumed to have been in contact with the walls for hours.


Cyanide can also be assumed to have remains in contact with the gas-chamber walls for hours. Not to mention that the walls also had a much higher "sponge factor" than the delousing chamber's walls, and would much more readily absorb the cyanide through it's porpous materials.

Cyanide would easily cling to the moist walls that were to be found inside morgue's cellar. As Degesch itself stated in it's "Zyklon for pest control" pamphlet:

"Hydrocyanic acid dissolves very readily in water. Compared with liquid hydrocyanic acid, the gas is chemically very indifferent, and even in highly concentrated form under prolonged exposure it does not show a tendency to react with other substances."
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/l/leu ... notes.html


And if the walls were only washed AFTER the bodies had been removed, as Tauber and Bennahmias suggest, then that gives at least 9 hours for the cyanide to form into the walls prior to the washings, which would have done little to remove such residues as we shall see below.

Roberto wrote:
Besides their increased humidity due to the humid environment caused by the hosing of floors and piles of bodies, the walls would also to some extent have been sprayed with water during the latter, as "Wahrheit" himself mentions elsewhere in his text.


But what's crucial is how much of the cyanide residues were directly hosed off the walls and/or ceiling. As I will explain below, the simple addition of water into the room (and the supposed humidity caused from it) is insignificant.

Since none of the sources point to a total hosing of the gas chamber walls, we believe it is safe to assume significant amounts of the walls remained unsprayed, and therefore, laden with cyanide content.

Roberto wrote:
The problem is reaching that state, and on the way there too little time and too much humidity to reach equilibrium concentration, as well as another factor mentioned by Green – the influence of high amounts of CO2 exhaled by the victims on the ambient pH, to which Prussian Blue formation is very sensitive – are likely to have been major hindrances that kept Prussian Blue from forming in the Birkenau gas chambers.


There is a question of just how much CO2 would be released by the alleged victims in the timeframe of several minutes that we are looking at. I believe the CO2 issue needs further study, as both I think Green himself points out, and as can be seen by the several observations and notes on the issue by Rudolf.

Rudolf's discussion of the CO2 issue can be seen on p.53 of his and Mattogno's "Auschwitz Lies" http://vho.org/dl/ENG/al.pdf


Roberto wrote:
In the latter, the Prussian Blue reaction had half an hour at most to take place before the gas was ventilated out, followed by the hosing of the bodies that would add to the already high humidity from previous washings.


As Rudolf has demonstrated, the cyanide was likely to remain in the room for much longer than just 30 minutes, even with ventilation taking place; yet, instead of turning this into a cut-and-paste argument of the two experts of each respective side, we will take a different path.

As I noted in my original post, Bennahmias concured with other inmates that the gas chamber was split, on a 1/3--2/3rds basis. While I have been unable to find which section had the ventilation capacity, I think it's safe to assume that the larger section did. I would be interested in any evidence that Muehlenkamp or anyone else could offer here. I could find nothing in the Holocaust literature on it.

Anyway, in the smaller portion of Krema II, Bennahmias describes that smaller transports were exterminated there in the usual fashion, but that the clean-up process did not begin for many days later. With no ventilation instruments, and no wall-washings, with more time than the delousing walls had to formate, how can Muehlenkamp still explain the missing Prussian Blue stains on at least 1/3 of the Krema II gas chamber?


Roberto wrote:
The second aspect, which Dr. Green considers to have been the more important one, is that due to constant hosing down/washing of the gas chambers the humidity therein was too high for a sufficiently high concentration of CN- ions (necessary for the formation of Prussian Blue, according to Alich et al) to come into being, especially during the relatively short time of a homicidal gassing. It stands to reason that a room which is regularly hosed down or washed, independently of whether the hosing/washing applies to the floor, the dead bodies inside or the walls, will have a much higher degree of humidity than a church or a basement.


Unfortunately for Muehlenkamp, while it may stand to reason for a believer that the alleged sprayings inside the gas chamber would cause a "mugh higher degree of humidity" in the morgue, it does not stand from the evidence. In fact, there is also the likelihood that the sprayings may have actually slightly lowered the humidity inside the room, as many modern dishwashers add cold water to it's process in order to loer it's washing chambers humidity.

Unless Muehlenkamp can evidence show otherwise, we will assume here that the water being sprayed into the gas chambers was unheated, as I believe would be the most likely scenario. The temperature of the water entering the gas chamber would be the determining factor in just how much humidity and moisture would be added to the rooms atmosphere.

Hot water causes a much larger amount of water vapor to be added to the air than cold water does. This reality can easily be observed in one's one bathroom in a mini-experiment. Run a shower only using cold water for some time (10-15 minutes), and then take a paper towel and wipe the walls of the bathroom, as well as the shower walls. For the most part, the entire bathroom remains dry, including the shower walls, except the portions were the spouted water actually sprayed. When running a warm-hot shower for the same amount of time, the same examination of the walls and shower will reveal moisture nealy everywhere, and in significant quantities.

So the question becomes, how much humidity/moisture could the cold water the Sonderkommando were spraying really add to the gas chamber? For that, let us scratch the surface a bit on the water vapor/pressure relationship.


Plot of Water Vapor Pressure in Torr versus degrees Celsius

Image

It is unlikely for the Sonderkommando's water to be anything above 10 deg Celsius. Green and McCarthy have noted that the gas chambers were likely in the range of 15-20 deg, and since the water temperature was almost certainly lower than room temperature, I consider this a reasonable maximum temperature for the water.

In a room with moderate humidity, 10 deg Celsius water is likely to have a vapor pressure of 1.23 Kilopascals. In real terms, this is an addition of around 1% of a room's atmospheric moisture content. As the gas chambers, underground basements as they were, and packed with humans, were likely to have a very high relative humidity (likely ~95%), the addition of a measley 1% atmospheric moisture content would be insignificant.

Yet in the gas chamber's extremely humid conditions, as noted by me above and also Muehlenkamp in his response, it is a wonder how much water would really be added to the vapor content of the room. Highly humid conditions inhibits the evaporation of water from other sources, much like the body's sweat cannot evaporate in highly humid conditions.

How would water prevent the cyanide build-up anyway? In the laundry of his own postings that Muehlenkamp refers to in the response, Muehlenkamp becomes aware (thanks to a member of CODOH) that US execution gas chambers use ammonia to remove the remaining cyanide residues from it's gas chambers. If water was so effective, why not simply use that instead?

So we've seen that the believers desperate attempt to wash those Prussian Blues away has failed once again.
Last edited by Wahrheit on Tue Nov 06, 2007 5:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Hannover » Tue Nov 06, 2007 5:04 pm

Good work Wahrheit.

I can't imagine nutroll 'Roberto Muehlenkamp' posting anywhere, he's been demolished everytime he has posted here, that's for sure. It's embarrasing really. Anyone can search his name here and see for themselves.

from:
R.Muehlenkamp: 'gas chambers' were hosed down, so no cyanide'
http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=3706
again, Roberto Muehlenkamp promotes the laughably impossible, saying:
The claim that the walls were washed subsequent to gassings comes from eyewitnesses. Eyewitnesses are an acknowledged source of forensic evidence. The only other imaginable source would have been statements from perpetrators.
This is what the eyewitnesses stated:

Henry Tauber:
“The water tap was in the corridor and a rubber hose was run from it to wash the floor of the gas chamber...”

Filip Müller
“Normally the concrete floors in the gas chamber as well as in the changing room were damp: today they were carefully dried....”

Nyszili:
“The Sonderkommando squad, outfitted with large rubber boots, lined up around the hill of bodies and flooded it with powerful jets of water. This was necessary because the final act of those who die by drowning or by gas is an involuntary defecation....”

Daniel Bennahmias:
“Once the gas chamber had been cleared, it must be hosed free of all traces of blood and excrement - but mainly blood - and then it must be whitewashed with a quick drying paint. This step is crucial, and it is done each time the gas chamber is emptied, for the dying have scratched and gouged the walls in their death throes. The walls are embedded with blood and bits of flesh, and none on the next transport must suspect that he is walking into anything other than a shower. This takes two or three hours.”

Whether the walls or the ceiling were washed is without importance. What
matters is that the hosing of the gas chambers increased the level of humidity in the chambers so much that the equilibrium concentration of CN- ions necessary to the formation of blue staining, if reached at all during the gassings, turned into a concentration too low to allow for the formation of iron blues. According to Alich et al, the formation of Prussian blue from dilutions of iron and iron cyanide took 2 days and addition of as little as 13% water (by volume) caused the complex from which iron blues could form to decompose.

I responded:
This is just too easy, but anyway ...

- Imagine, supposedly 2000 Jews at a time crammed into an alleged converted morgue and gassed, using the cyanide carrying insecticide Zyklon-B.

- Then imagine trying to wash down the walls and ceiling quickly before the cyanide penetrated.

- But there is no way to reach the walls and ceiling without removing the alleged 2000 bodies first, via a tiny elevator up to the crematorium.

- All this while deadly cyanide gas is rushing out the now open door, since the Zyklon-B would still be releasing it's cyanide load, which it will ... for hours. The alleged gassing times were supposedly mere minutes. If the liars try to say that the Zyklon-B was pulled out of the alleged gas chambers after death was accomplished, they must then explain what was done with the still outgassing Zyklon-B, which they cannot.

- Yet the alleged next batch of 2000 more Jews are supposedly waiting in line to enter the alleged gas chamber, which is now releasing gas, exposing them and the entire camp to cyanide. Now remember, the 2000 Jews allegedly waiting were supposed to be unaware of danger, thinking they were just being taken to get showers.

- The addition of water (humidity) actually assists in the formation of cyanide residue .. http://www.vho.org/GB/Books/trr/6.html

- Germar Rudolf demonstrated that it would have taken 10 times the amount of Zyklon-B for the claimed gassings of Jews compared to the routine delousing of clothing etc. That's a lot of cyanide, but we don't cyanide levels to support the lies. - http://germarrudolf.com/work/trr/7.html#7.3.1.3.

see:
'Filip Mueller / another lying "eyewitness"'
http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=95

see:
'Acclaimed 'eyewitness' Henryk Tauber / stranger than fiction'
http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=17

see:
'"eyewitness" Daniel Bennahmias paints lies'
http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=35
Yep, that's right, Bennahmias claimed the Germans painted the alleged gas chamber walls after every absurdly alleged 'gassing' to conceal cyanide. "This takes two or three hours". But supposedly these gassing were night & day with batch after batch waiting patiently to die in rapid succession. We have tales that these alleged gassings took mere minutes per batch. The story implodes upon itself with it's own lies.

Nyszili, ah yes, the same communist that gave numbers which suppport the FOUR MILLION at Auschwitz. Lovely.

The stupid lies that people like Roberto Muehlenkamp come up with an attempt to cover an obvious fraud is amazing.

For further spanking of the shyster Muehlenkamp
http://germarrudolf.com/work/trr/8.html#8.4.4.

from the Rudolf Report:
http://germarrudolf.com/work/trr/

Revisionists are just the messengers, the absurd impossibilities of 'holocaust' stories is the message.

- Hannover

read more:

R.Muehlenkamp: 'gas chambers' were hosed down, so no cyanide'
http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.
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Postby grenadier » Tue Nov 06, 2007 8:20 pm

Good job Wahrheit!

:wink:
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Postby Wahrheit » Thu Nov 08, 2007 12:34 pm

Thank you Hannover and grenadier.

Since Muehlenkamp has posted another response to my work (http://p102.ezboard.com/frodohforumfrm18.showMessageRange?topicID=161.topic&start=51&stop=57), it seems I am not quite finished with this subject, and will get back to it in a few days. A large part of his response merely deals with clarifying some of my points.

To the Forum Moderator, would it be appropriate to link to this discussion in the "Cyanide Chemistry at Auschwitz" thread?
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Postby Moderator » Thu Nov 08, 2007 3:22 pm

Wahrheit wrote:To the Forum Moderator, would it be appropriate to link to this discussion in the "Cyanide Chemistry at Auschwitz" thread?

I assume you mean add these posts to that thread.

IMO, this (your) thread is unique in the way it is handled, and it's informative to see the 'Muehlenkamps' of this world exposed for what they are. I say let's stay right here, it's not broke.

Thanks, M1
Only lies need to be shielded from debate, truth welcomes it.
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Postby Hektor » Sun Nov 11, 2007 1:21 pm

Wahrheit wrote:...Since Muehlenkamp has posted another response to my work (http://p102.ezboard.com/frodohforumfrm18.showMessageRange?topicID=161.topic&start=51&stop=57), it seems I am not quite finished with this subject, and will get back to it in a few days. A large part of his response merely deals with clarifying some of my points.
...
Just make sure they are really debating, not throwing smokescreens and using deconstruction to extent the communication. I often observed it that they try doing this. Firstly one should have certainty with the rules of scientific logic. And this rests on:
1. Verifyable facts
2. Scientific laws
3. Sound conclusions from those facts.

In the case of the Holocaust this would mean:
1. physical evidence
2. a) evidence demonstrates that there are traces for extermination by gassing.
b) There is no evidence contradicting this or pointing to tempering with the evidence.
3. Conclusion: There are substantial reasons to believe that Jews were exterminated with Zyklon B.

If they deviate from this, rest your case or point out the fallacies they are using. They possibly will try to get rid of the burden of proof on them.
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Postby Wahrheit » Sun Nov 11, 2007 4:05 pm

Here is the response to Muehlenkamp.

--Roberto Muehlenkamp--
To which I will respond point by point, and as "Wahrheit" and his fellow true believers will be reading this thread, my response will also include questions and requests for substantiation of claims made that I expect "Wahrheit" to respond to.


And this is my attempt to clarify my position and points, all the while responding in return.

--Roberto Muehlenkamp
W.

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Roberto wrote:
Quote:
In this time aspect, homicidal gassings, which lasted half an hour at most before the gas was ventilated out, differed from fumigations, be it in the Auschwitz-Birkenau fumigation chambers or in the rooms mentioned by Dr. Bachmann, where the HCN can be assumed to have been in contact with the walls for hours.

Cyanide can also be assumed to have remains in contact with the gas-chamber walls for hours.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Why so, and how much cyanide?


The graph given by Rudolf showing a simulation of the hydrogen cyanide levels inside the Birkenau homicidal gas chambers in morgue 1 of crema II is very informative on this area. Assuming the realistic five air exchanges per hour in the gas chamber, the concentration of cyanide in the room would remain above 1 g/mg^3 for two hours.

See the graph here:
http://www.vho.org/GB/Books/trr/7.html#7.3.2.2.3.

Yet time is not the, or one of the, important factors for the creation of Prussian Blue.


--Roberto Muehlenkamp--
Please show evidence to how the homicidal gas chamber walls differed from the delousing chamber’s walls, and quantify the alleged higher absorption capacity resulting from this supposed difference.


For one thing, material. The delousing chamber's walls were largely made of brick, compared to the "gas chambers'" which had concrete.

Location is also an important difference. As I have pointed out, the morgues were underground, and would therefore certainly have more humid and moist walls as compared to it's above-ground, and heated delousing chamber brothren.

In hopes of quantifying this difference, let us turn back to Rudolf, who reproduced information found in a HCN study by Schwarz and Deckert.

Table 7: Absorption of hydrogen cyanide by various building materials under the effect of 2% HCN by volume over 24 hours.[409]

Material
HCN [mg m-2]

Terracotta
55.2

Brick
73.0

Lime sandstone, naturally humid
22,740.0

Lime sandstone, briefly dried
4,360.0

Lime sandstone, dried approx. 1/2 year at 20°C
2,941.0

Concrete block, dried for 3 days
8,148.0

Lime mortar blocks, a few days old*
4,800.0

Cement mortar blocks, a few days old*
540.0

Cement mortar blocks, a month old*
140.0

Cement blocks, pure, a few days old*
1,550.0

* 2.5 to 3.3% HCN by volume.[408] The vol. % data, according to the authors, represent theoretical nominal values, which, in practice, however, are only reached up to 50% or less, through adsorption onto walls and fumigation materials.
link=http://www.vho.org/GB/Books/trr/6.html#ftn409


With brick having absorbed 73 mg, while a month old cement block absorbed 140 mg, we can safely quantify the factor by at least 2; yet, this factor is an underestimate for our reasons, as our cement would be humid and moist (note the increase in absorbtion of naturraly humid vs. briefly dried lime sandstone, for instance).

Then consider that W.A. Uglow found that concrete absorbs ~four to six times as much HCN as lime mortar (Rudolf Report, p.188).

Also, the morgues would be freshly built and quickly put into use according to the literature, meaning our gas chamber walls would be more inclined to absorb as the concrete blocks that were either "dried for three days", or were "a few days old", both with much higher abrobtion rates than the HCN-exposed brick.


So by several times the gas chamber walls could absorb more than the delousing chambers.

--Roberto Muehlenkamp--

W.

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Cyanide would easily cling to the moist walls that were to be found inside morgue's cellar.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Can you demonstrate that this would be so, considering the expectable levels of moisture inside the “morgue”?


See Schwarz and Deckert's table above. Where the materials exposed to HCN were moist, they absorbed considerably more than compared to it's drier compatriots.

For instance, with lime sandstone the HCN mgs absorbed were:

Lime sandstone, naturally humid
22,740.0

Lime sandstone, briefly dried
4,360.0

Lime sandstone, dried approx. 1/2 year at 20°C
2,941.0



Also, in Dr. Bachmann's study, his dry-room for fumigation wasn't humid-less, and actually did contain some amount of moisture. http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0039-3630(198108)26%3A3%3C111%3APOBOWO%3E2.0.CO%3B2-F

It contained some 30% relative humidity, with a temperature right near 20 deg Celsius, not to far from where the gas chambers are alleged to have operated temperature wise.

Still wasn't enough to form Prussian Blues, as his 90-95% relative humidity fumigations were.

--Roberto Muehlenkamp--
What matters is not so much when the walls were washed but the level of humidity inside the chamber, which would affect the walls independently of whether they were washed directly. A high level of humidity inside the chamber would always be present.


But, as Dr. Bachmann has stated, and as other scientists have studied and found out, higher humidity INCREASES the likelihood of Prussian Blue formation, not the reverse.

--Roberto Muehlenkamp--
According to other testimonies I have read, water was also shed on the floor to facilitate the dragging of the bodies in the chamber.


The specific statements from these eye-witnesses would be appreciated, so as to ascertain their significance in relation to our discussion.


--Roberto Muehlenkamp--
In other words, during periods of major gassing operations the homicidal gas chambers would constantly have a level of moisture that I expect to have been much higher than that of basements or churches that are not in contact with water so often and so intensively.


Again, moisture facilitates the Prussian Blue formation process.


--Roberto Muehlenkamp--
No, what is crucial is what concentrations of cyanide residues could form on the moist walls while high amounts of gas were available inside the gas chamber, which was for a relatively short period of time.


Yes, and given their higher moisture content, their more favorable Ph-level, and it's higher absorbtivity level of the walls, any level of concentrations of cyanide in the gas chambers would be multiplied in the walls.


--Roberto Muehlenkamp--
As the formation of Prussian Blue is dependent on a high concentration of CN- ions, any factors reducing that concentration – such as, in this case, the shortness of the time during which high amounts of gas were inside the chamber and the increased humidity as compared to a level favoring formation of Prussian Blue in much longer fumigation operations – is significant.


Given that the cyanide concentration of the gas chambers is likely to have reached a 10-12 g/m^3 for soem minutes, and a level hovering to that for an even longer amount of time, the CN concentrations in the room with a high absorbitive capacity would be more than sufficient for the creation of Prussian Blue.


--Roberto Muehlenkamp--
Why not both?

In his article Chemistry is not the Science, Dr. Green points out the logical assumptions related to this splitting – not absence of ventilation in one part, but reduction of ventilation times in the part that was used in each case:


Green seems instead to suggest that ventilation is the unused portion of the "gas chamber" was sealed, so as to double the ventilation capacity of the section still in service.

Dr. Green states:
If one makes the logical assumption that the intake and exhaust vents were also blocked off in the unused portion of the gas chambers, this modification doubled the ventilation rate of the remaining portion.
http://www.holocaust-history.org/auschw ... he-science


Yet don't at least several witnesses state that both sections were used, at least several times? With the Hungarian action occuring a few months after the split, and with the capacity at the camp alleged to have been at full-bore, it's doubtful that, if there were gassings, they would let half the gas chamber stay unused.

Pressac, in his book, states that the smaller portion of Krema II had inefficient ventilation capacity anyway. While providing Tauber's deposition, Pressac provided some thoughts:

Tauber: At the end of 1943, the gas chamber was divided in two by a brick wall to make it possible to gas smaller transports. In the dividing wall there was a door identical to that between the corridor and the original gas chamber. Small transports were gassed in the chamber furthest from the entrance from the corridor.

Pressac: [One of the very few contestable points in the deposition. It would seem more logical to gas in the gas chamber CLOSEST to the entrance, as this meant less distance to transport the corpses and the ventilation system at the far end of the gas chamber must have been inefficient because it was poorly designed.]
http://www.holocaust-history.org/auschw ... 0484.shtml



--Roberto Muehlenkamp--
W.
Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Anyway, in the smaller portion of Krema II, Bennahmias describes that smaller transports were exterminated there in the usual fashion, but that the clean-up process did not begin for many days later.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



A precise quote would be appreciated, as it seems highly unlikely that dead bodies were allowed to lie in a gas chamber for days after the gassing.


A precise quote is warranted. From pg 53 of The Holocaust Odyssey of Daniel Bennahmias, Sonderkommando, emphasis mine:

"Despite the foregoing, the system still proved its efficiency because there were fewer people to process and a smaller area to clean. After splitting the chamber in this way, and employing the technique described, it was not unusual for the smaller of the two chambers to remain sealed and intact with its complement of people for as long as four or five days or longer. When the door finally was opened, the Sonderkommando was assaulted by an overhwelming stench and the ghastly sight of putrid flesh. The bodies had turned blue and were bloated to double and treble their normal size, and Danny was among those who had to extricate them."


Given that a stench remained in the room, and that the bodies were blue (showing lack of oxygen, cyanide victims are pink), it suggets there was no ventilation in use for this portion.


--Roberto Muehlenkamp--
So, will our friend now argue that a regularly hosed-down basement will be less humid than a church or a basement where no such hosing is done?


No, but we have yet to see how this high humidity will be too much for Prussian Blue formation.

Again, Bachmann created Prussian Blue at 90-95% humidity in a room at over 20 deg. Celsius, which puts it in the range given by Green and McCarthy.


--Roberto Muehlenkamp--
I figure that adding cold water may reduce the humidity of a washing chamber insofar as that humidity is caused by the presence of a lot of hot water, which is hardly surprising. I wonder, however, if our genius can demonstrate that his humid church or basement would become less humid if regularly washed with cold water.


When the water is still cold, or anything less than warm, I consider it a possibility.

Either way, it's insignificant to the Prussian Blue issue.


--Roberto Muehlenkamp--
Of course cold water contributes less to increasing a room’s humidity than cold water, but an experiment more interesting than W.’s shower-room suggestion would be to regularly wash a church or basement with cold water (all of it, and not just a corner relatively corresponding to the size of the shower-place in W.’s bathroom) and measuring the impact that this has on the ambient humidity.


Certainly would be interesting; however, I do not have the resources to perform such an experiment. I look forward to the results if its performed by Muehlenkamp, or someone else.


--Roberto Muehlenkamp--
Interesting graph. Where does it come from, and what is it based on?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Wate ... _graph.jpg

Appears in accordance with more advanced scientific websites, although the graph is the most user-friendly display of information.


--Roberto Muehlenkamp--
Where did Green and McCarthy write that the gas chambers were likely in the range of 15-20 degrees centigrade? In Chemistry is not the Science, Dr. Green writes the following (emphasis is mine


I accept my mistake on their hypothesis for the temperature range of the gas chambers.

Would be beneficial for more studies to be done on this area by both sides of the historical debate (on gas chamber operating temperatures), since now the only working estimate has a 20 degree Celsius (or 36 deg. Farhenheit) range.


--Roberto Muehlenkamp--
This means that W. will have to increase his “reasonable maximum temperature for the water”. One might also expect the temperature difference between the colder water and the hotter ambient temperature to produce steam, which is what I presume accounts for higher moisture when you run a hot shower in a colder bathroom.


The cold water would have to heat up before adding much moisture to the gas chamber's atmosphere. High water temperature causes high vapor pressure. This is why a cold shower adds little moisture to the walls of the bathroom, while a warm one does.


--Roberto Muehlenkamp--
W.

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In a room with moderate humidity, 10 deg Celsius water is likely to have a vapor pressure of 1.23 Kilopascals.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



No idea if that’s correct, but I’ll accept it from any objective source that W. can provide.


Here for the Kilopascal data from water vapor pressure. http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?tit ... e_of_water

Here for the Kilopascal conversion into atmosphere. http://www.convertworld.com/en/pressure/Kilopascal.html


--Roberto Muehlenkamp--
It would especially be interesting to learn what amount of water W. considered in his calculations.


It's not the amount of water that matters, but the temperature of the water, which affects the vapor pressure (thereby the room's humidity).


--Roberto Muehlenkamp--
I note that he mentioned a relative humidity that must have been much higher than what can be expected in Dr. Bachmann’s churches and basements, none of which ever had sweating human beings packed like sardines into them. In other words, W. has unwittingly provided another reason why Dr. Bachmann’s churches and basements are no indication that Prussian Blue need have formed in the homicidal gas chambers of Birkenau.


Actually, as stated before, Dr. Bachmann's humid environment was within the range of Green and McCarthy's hypothesis for the temperature inside the gas chambers (Bachmann was at ~23-4 deg. Celsius), with a relative humidty nearing the peak of its possibility (90-95%).


--Roberto Muehlenkamp--
I have no idea why ammonia are used to remove cyanide residues from US execution gas chambers, if they are. But what W. has to demonstrate is that this is done in order to prevent Prussian Blue from forming, and that Prussian Blue would form if it were not done. Good luck!


Actually, that's not necessary. I simply must show that ammonia us used to remove cyanide crystals remaining in the gas chamber after use, which could have the effect of preventing the formation of Prussian Blue. No cyanide, no Prussian Blue.

In your own post #7219, you display a Zundel article which details the pre-gassing procedures of a US execution chamber. Prior to the arrival of the warden, the assistant warden and a chemist must go through and check several matters, the first one being (emphasis yours):

"1) Ensuring that four ammonia reservoirs in the bottom of the gas chamber were filled. This ammonia was released after the execution to help reduce the cyanide gas to crystals which could be washed away. (32-8877, 8878)"
http://p102.ezboard.com/frodohforumfrm1 ... =1&stop=25


You went on to agree with this point, telling "Mr. Bergmann":

So what was the ammonium used for in this gassing?....To help remove the cyanide gas from the gas chamber by reducing it to crystals that could be washed away. The ammonium was part of the process of clearing the gas chamber of cyanide gas, together with the ventilation.


Ammonia for cyanide removal, and then water, which suggests water is not able to do the job itself, as Dr. Green would have us believe.
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