Things changed for me... [MAYBE NOT] Muehlenkamp

[offlineDrew J]

I have started going over the Muehlenkamp-Mattogno-Belzec stuff again and have made a few more additional comments recently but haven't fully responded to Muehlenkamps' reply to me yet of course.

I also found out that the proposed fall debate has been cancelled as the revisionist team has withdrawn.
http:// r o dohforum.yuku.com/topic/7282/t/Revisionist-Team-Announcement.html

Muehlenkamp has expanded his 2009 rejoinder to Mattogno.
http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... _2802.html

He has apparently taken issue with Mattogno on Treblinka back in 2006.
http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... linka.html

And also provided some interesting photos regarding nazi atrocities.
http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... -nazi.html

He, and someone else took issue with nafcash on this board.
http://www.atheistparents.org/forum/vie ... =1&t=14940

I have been skimming and going over this stuff and it seems pretty powerful and presuasive. In the thread about the revisionist team pulling out, someone said that Auschwitz and places like that have been done to death already (but Zundel, Rudolf and Leuchter, the latter who updated himself thanks to Rudolf's corrections) but in my view, those have been won by the revisionists. However this person goes on to say that the Reinhardt camps have been posing problems for the revisonists. That would seem to be so even given just the few examples of Mattogno losing on fine logical points to Muehlenkamp in the Belzec debate as evidenced by my red texts in there. Put that together with the other stuff by Muehlenkamp I have been reading, I'm beginning to think there may be a split. The exterminationists may have got us on the Reinhardt "transit" camps, while we have them on the labour camps like Auschwitz. I see no contradiction saying that Auschwitz and Dachau were deliberately exaggerated and were in fact labour camps, but that since the Nazis couldn't have killed Jews in shoddy gas chambers, they may have decided, hey let's kill them out in the forest in some transit camps.

To top it all off, I realized that the topic I made with Germar Rudolf and others exposing Mark Weber and the IHR was deleted. It wasn't simply moved to another section. It was deleted. I checked my profile and went through all the posts I have made so far on this board and it was nowhere to be found. So in other words, people who expose Mark Weber as an agent, and who contribute to my topic showing how Rudolf even had problems with the IHR, our copy and paste work gets targeted for no apparent reason. I have yet to be told on what grounds that topic of mine THE IHR YOU THOUGHT YOU KNEW (or some title to that effect) had to go.

If we criticize certain holocaust exaggerations under the guise of having no sacred cows, then why this obvious sacred cow?

[offlinePepper]

Drew

...the Reinhardt camps have been posing problems for the revisonists... The exterminationists may have got us on the Reinhardt "transit" camps...

The hoaxers got their asses handed to them over on rodoh this summer on the subjects of Chelmno, Sobibor and Treblinka.

So how can you come to the conclusions that you have?

Doesn't make any sense at all.

To top it off, Muehlenkamp admitted that he couldn't prove the existence of a single grave at Chelmno, Sobibor and Treblinka.

He even admitted defeat a year after accepting nafcash's final solution forensic challenge.

[offlinePepper]

Drew

The exterminationists may have got us on the Reinhardt "transit" camps

Well then Drew, if that's what you really think, I have a little challenge for you.


There's supposed to be 33 mass graves at Belzec, 10 at Sobibor, 6 at Treblinka and 5 at Chelmno which, in total, allegedly contain the remains of over 2 million jews.

So here's my challenge to you Drew.

Prove to us that just one grave at each of these sites actually exists, then tell us how much human remains exist in each of your chosen grave, then prove it.

Now, if "The exterminationists have got us on the Reinhardt transit camps," this challenge should be done in no time.

I can't wait to see your proof Drew.

[offlineHeydrich]

The "Reinhard" camps like Sobibor, Treblinka and so on, are debunked very easy. Read this article about Sobibor:

http://www.inconvenienthistory.com/arch ... obibor.php

Watch 1/3 of the Holocau§t, especially the section about Sobibor here:

http://www.holocaustdenialvideos.com/

Read about Treblinka: http://www.onethirdoftheholocaust.com/treblinka.pdf

and about Belzec: http://www.onethirdoftheholocaust.com/belzec.pdf

This Muehlenkamp hater of truth NEVER comes out with hard evidence. Where are the graves... and the space for such graves ? Where are the victims ? Where are the orders ? Where is everything ? All of this does only exist in the mind of that lunatic.

[offlineDrew J]

That Belzec book is Mattogno's. If you would check the Belzec thread I have made note of some problems of Mattogno's that Muehlenkamp rightly pointed out. They're in the red text.

This Muehlenkamp hater of truth NEVER comes out with hard evidence. Where are the graves... and the space for such graves ? Where are the victims ?

Actually he does come out with some interesting replies which are hard to ignore. As for graves, the Kola document is said to have proven where the graves and human remains were. Kola's core sampling was mapped out with blue dots representing any sort of human remains and blue dots for nothing. All the graves he found human remains in were concentrated in the northwest and also concentrated in the north east section of the camp. The places his red dots were placed also correspond with not only the O Neill map but also the bau-reder map. It's all in my Belzec thread. You really should read the red text of mine in that thread to see where Mattogno made some cricial errors.

One thing that really makes me laugh about Muehlenkamp is how he tries to accuse revisionists of quote mining, which I disproved here.
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=5643&p=37531&sid=063b1ce3cb2e4c90e002e27eaa3da66e#p37544

As someone else rightly pointed out, how dare he and others get upset at revisionists using monikers since holocaust denial laws would make them liable to be put in prison.

Oh and how the idiots can't let go if this stupid John Demjanjuk fantasy. The exterminationists and Jews accuse revisionists of ignoring evidence to satisfy their bloodlust. Well what about them? Israel had to declare that Demjanjuk was not guilty thanks to the work of Jim Trafficant who just got out of jail and on his first tv appearance called out AIPAC. The ADL hated him for exposing one of their holocaust hoaxes and he had to pay. What I am about to post comes from another site I post on.


So A.L., a jew, doesn't like my John Demjanjuk work over at this website.

http://www.dogeatdogsite.com/forum/view ... c&start=30

Two days ago and not from a raciest white power source:ID No. 1393

I could give you more but what would be the point? Your bigotry and deliberate ignorance prevents you from reading or believing the truth.

To which I replied.

So let me get this straight. It took this long to track this guy down? Is that the best you have? This guy is obviously being leaned on to say what he is saying.

Nagorny has told German authorities that he worked with Demjanjuk at a concentration camp in Flossenburg, Germany, and lived with him after the war in Landshut, a Bavarian city near Munich, said Guenther Maull, Demjanjuk's attorney in Germany.

What's the name of this camp? They can't even name it? Hahaha. That's how you know it's bullshit.

At 92, Nagorny says he recognized Demjanjuk's picture, worked with him at a German concentration camp and lived with him.

Okay, which picture.

Nagorny, a Ukrainian, also told German public television network ZDF that he knew Demjanjuk well and recognized him from a 1940s photo. The network declined to identify him. It called him "Alex N." on its Web site and used the pseudonym "Dimitri" in an on-air interview.

Oh really? Which photo? Can we see it? Can the media bear to have their claims stand up to scrutiny? Is it the same one that was on that forged KGB ID card?

In a television broadcast May 17, a reporter showed Nagorny a picture of Demjanjuk in a guard's uniform: "This is Ivan, absolutely. I recognize him. ... I'm saying what I saw. We slept in the same room."

He recognized him. You know that's exactly what other witnesses said in John's first trial.

The first ‘survivor’ to testify, Pinhas Epstein, took the stand on 23 February 1987, and told the court that “I am convinced that opposite me sits Ivan the Terrible of Treblinka” (Reuters, 23 February 1987).

Epstein said he saw a photograph of Demjanjuk in an album shown to him in 1978 by Israeli investigators. "I was shown an album and my attention was drawn to one picture, and I identified it as that of Ivan.” (Reuters, 23 February 1987).

“I said the photo was not particularly sharp. It was older than the Ivan I knew, but it was still him. The frame, the round face, the short neck, the wide shoulders and the protruding ears. I told them this is the Ivan I remember,” Epstein said. (Reuters, 23 February 1987.)

“I would go to the gas chambers to take out the corpses . . . he would stand and look at the result of his handiwork – the stabbing of girls, the gouging of eyes, the pieces of the girls' breasts . . . this would occur meters from me,” Epstein continued in his evidence (Reuters, 23 February 1987).

Funny how we aren't told which camp it was because we know thanks to the work of David Cole that those Auschwitz gas chambers were rebuilt into phony gas chambers by the Soviets. They are admitted reconstructions as admitted by the curator to David Cole on videotape. Secondly look at his claim. He said he would take the corpses from the gas chambers? Right there we know this is bullshit because that deadly gas would have killed anyone who hauled the bodies out. It gets in your skin and doesn't get out. That's how you know these Jews are liars and are full of shit. Read THE CHEMICAL AND TOXICOLOGICAL IMPOSSIBILITY OF THE AUSCHWITZ GAS CHAMBER STORY.

But as it turns out they were mistaken as Israel found no evidence of John being Ivan the terrible and so they acquit him. We're hearing the same old damn record again and again. There was another witness against John in the first trial who claimed that he worked the gas chambers in Treblinka.

The next ‘survivor eyewitness’, Eliyhau Rosenberg, then told the court on 25 February 1987: “This man is Ivan, without a shadow of a doubt – Ivan from Treblinka, from the gas chambers, - the man I am looking at now,” (Reuters, 25 February 1987).

Treblinka gas chambers is also how you know these people were lying on the stand. There was no mass extermination camp at Treblinka and there were no gas chambers. http://www.nafcash.com Archaeologists went there and found no evidence of soil or ground disturbance. No bones or ash either. In other words, no evidence of a holocaust at Treblinka.

Given these factors, it's no wonder Israel had to acquit him. Therefore I'm loathe to believe this cocksucker when we have already had two cocksuckers exposed as liars against John Demjanjuk. You obviously won't acknowledge that this is a witchhunt AL. As a Jew, you feel compelled, regardless of the lack of evidence, to find a nazi under every bed and on every street corner. Even if a court in Israel can't convict him, oh he must be guilty. An accusation is good enough in your book. But it doesn't work that way for rational people. There must be supporting evidence.

All the holocaust EXAGGERATIONS are starting to be exposed on the internet. That's why the media is showing Demjanjuk being attacked again. It's trying to reaffirm the bogus six million number and the phony gas chamber stories. Elie Wiesel was just exposed as a liar and a phony witness not too long ago.
http://www.savethemales.ca/translated_f ... arian.html
=http://www.henrymakow.com/elie_wiesel_stole_friends_iden.html
And some nutcase made up a bogus holocaust story a while ago too. According to him, in his imagination, it was true.
http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/US/Story?id=6903068&page=1
Oh, here's another whopper. This guy survived SEVERAL gas chambers. Boy for a supposedly methodical killing machine, the Nazis really fucked up here didn't they?
http://www.judicial-inc.biz/Moshe_gassed_six_times.htm

Then I came upon a holocaust-gas chamber affirmation blog which has this to say about Demjanjuk. That even though that main ID card against him was a forgery, there are other documents since his conviction overturn in Israel that prove he was Ivan the Terrible in Sobibor in Poland.
http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... art-i.html. They list nine documents. The last one is very curious.

Before we get to this document, remember the German speaking 92 year old witness said he saw him working at a camp in Germany. Well let's see what the holocaust gas chamber extermination theorist says.

http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... art-i.html

Doc. no. 9. Finally, in his application for an American visa on December 27, 1951, Demjanyuk wrote that from 1936 to 1943 he resided in Sobibor, Poland.

So this is proof for them that he was in Poland and thus was at Sobibor (and they also tried to say he was at Treblinka). Well if he was in Poland, how the fuck could he be in Germany like this 92 year old witness claims? The gas chamber mongers can't have it both ways. Demjanjuk can't be in two places at once.

I haven't seen these nine documents either on that website and they don't furnish them either. And they accuse revisionists of manipulating evidence. LOL.

[offlineDrew J]

Now, if "The exterminationists have got us on the Reinhardt transit camps," this challenge should be done in no time.

I can't wait to see your proof Drew.

I said they may. I haven't made up my mind as I have just started looking into Belzec and Treblinka recently. Speaking of Treblinka, Muehlenkamp on his article on that (which I gave a link to above) seems to think that the size of the pits allow for ashes of hundreds of thousands of Jews to be buried. He also accuses Mattogno of convenient elipses and leaving things out that don't fit his theory. Quite interesting.

I will say that it's a short article and that his math, while correct and somewhat impressive shows what MIGHT have happened at the camp but it doesn't prove his extermination theory. He seems to be arguing from ignorance. "Well I don't know really what happened but due to what I have in terms of human ash and human remains as admitted by Mattogno to exist, I'm going to claim that this was an extermination camp." I don't know however how he can tell me how much ash or remains there are. However, if he can, I don't see how he can figure out from what is left how many Jews were actually exterminated.

It seems to me that one of the ways Muehlenkamp likes to argue is, "Based on the size of these pits, this is how many Jews were killed because that's how many jews could fit in there." Well in my view, that is not science. That's just an assumption. Of course he could say why would the nazis dig more than they needed to? Well depends on what they were digging with now doesn't it? If they had actual machinery or vehicles with those claws that pick up a lot of dirt, then you can't help but pick up a lot of dirt even if you want to dig a shallow grave.

By the way, what is the claim about how the graves were dug? Men with shovels or men with digging machines on wheels?

[offlinePepper]

Drew

Things have changed for me...

Well, it looks like we have another example of change we can't believe in.

Please notice how Drew oh-so conveniently ignored my questions and challenge and oh-so confidently tried to change the subject.

And please notice how his language so suddenly turned very foul.


Drew

In the thread about the revisionist team pulling out

Ah yes, you must be talking about the debate that Terry challenged real historians on. But remember Drew, this "challenge" only came after Muehlenkamp got demolished by Greg Gerdes on two different forums and the whole holohoax controversies gang got pounded by a single poster on rodoh for something like a 100 days straight. It must also be pointed out that Terry didn't challenge revisionists until AFTER he banned that poster who was thrashing him and his buddies on the Reinhardt camps.

Drew

Actually he [Muehlenkamp] does come out with some interesting replies which are hard to ignore.

Actually Drew, Muehlenkamp is very easy to ignore. And how you can call no evidence at all "interesting" is laughable.


Drew

As for graves, the Kola document is said to have proven where the graves and human remains were.

"Said" by who Drew? Muehlenkamp in one of his "interesting replies?"


Drew

If you would check the Belzec thread I have made note of some problems of Mattogno's that Muehlenkamp rightly pointed out.

I'm more interested in graves than I am with "problems" in Mattogno's book.

Now Drew, how about addressing my questions and challenge.

Drew

"The exterminationists may have got us on the Reinhardt "transit" camps"


Well then Drew, if that's what you really think, I have a little challenge for you.


There's supposed to be 33 mass graves at Belzec, 10 at Sobibor, 6 at Treblinka and 5 at Chelmno which, in total, allegedly contain the remains of over 2 million jews.

So here's my challenge to you Drew.

Prove to us that just one grave at each of these sites actually exists, then tell us how much human remains exist in each of your chosen grave, then prove it.

Now, if "The exterminationists have got us on the Reinhardt transit camps," this challenge should be done in no time.

I can't wait to see your proof Drew.

What's wrong Drew, is just one grave too hard for you?

Perhaps you can get some help from your buddy Roberto?

Surely, in one of his many "interesting replies," he's provided proof of at least one grave in each of the camps.

[offlinePepper]

Ooooops, looks like Drew and me were composing posts at the same time.

My apologies.

[offlinePepper]

Drew

I will say that... his math [Muehlenkamp's], while correct and somewhat impressive

If it's correct and impressive Drew, then show us the graves.


Drew

He seems to be arguing from ignorance.

Well, you sure have that right. But don't you mean stupidity?

There's supposed to be 33 mass graves at Belzec, 10 at Sobibor, 6 at Treblinka and 5 at Chelmno which, in total, allegedly contain the remains of over 2 million jews.

So here's my challenge to you Drew.

Prove to us that just one grave at each of these sites actually exists, then tell us how much human remains exist in each of your chosen grave, then prove it.

Now, if "The exterminationists have got us on the Reinhardt transit camps," this challenge should be done in no time.

Still waiting Drew.

[offlinePepper]

Drew

It seems to me that one of the ways Muehlenkamp likes to argue is, "Based on the size of these pits,

What pits Drew?

We're waiting for you to prove the existence of just on pit in each camp that contains human remains.

Can you do it Drew?

[offlineDrew J]

Ah yes, you must be talking about the debate that Terry challenged real historians on. But remember Drew, this "challenge" only came after Muehlenkamp got demolished by Greg Gerdes on two different forums and the whole holohoax controversies gang got pounded by a single poster on rodoh for something like a 100 days straight. It must also be pointed out that Terry didn't challenge revisionists until AFTER he banned that poster who was thrashing him and his buddies on the Reinhardt camps.

Kind of like how Muehlenkamp was banned from here? Could you give me more details and perhaps links to these topics? Or is it pointless as I would have to be a member to see them, given what I have mentioned in my belzec thread recently:

Muehlenkamp in his reply to me on rodoh posted two photos.

What's the point of Drew J's quoting another idiot who claims that one cannot drill as deep as Kola did with hand-operated drills (which is nonsense, see maximusolson's post # 294)? Rather than trying to shift the burden of proof by yelling for evidence of the tools used (the job was done by an experienced archaeologist who can be assumed to have used the tools required and usually applied for the purpose at hand, bar evidence to the contrary) and mouthing off against the core sample photos in question:

By the way, that maximusolson's post is to a topic that I can't find except through google cache now. What the hell is going on at rodoh?
http://74.125.95.132/search?q=cache:oAJ6EXygKjoJ:Alice in Wonderland/forums/31+%22what+the+hell+does+kola+use+anyway%22+rodoh&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ca
As the cache shows, it's under a board section called THE HOLOCAUST IN POLAND.
Now when I go to the real site, I can't find such a section named that. Was there a mass deletion? Or can I not see it anymore as I'm not a member and just a common viewer?

[offlineDrew J]

"Said" by who Drew? Muehlenkamp in one of his "interesting replies?"

Well according to the agreement between the kola map, the O Neil map, the polish commission maps and the bau-reder map. And according to the red dots that in Kola's document represent human remains.

What's wrong Drew, is just one grave too hard for you?

Perhaps you can get some help from your buddy Roberto?

Surely, in one of his many "interesting replies," he's provided proof of at least one grave in each of the camps.

Again, it all goes back to the visual depictions in Kola and what those core samples allegedly picked up. Notice too how Roberto likes to cite those Sobibor core sample photos and claim he can see human remains in them. My problem with that is, where is the scientific proof that those are human ashes or human remains? On the other hand, as seen in Muehlenkamp's contra Mattogno on Treblinka article, even Mattogno admits human remains for example in Treblinka. Of course that alone doesn't prove mass extermination and the sizes of the pits don't prove a thing as I have also said. Especially when you can't really figure out from whatever human remains you have left how many died. Merely looking at the sizes of the pits and figuring out what they could hold doesn't cut it. It mathematically shows what COULD HAVE taken place, but doesn't empirically prove WHAT DID take place.

I'm not saying Muehlenkamp is to be believed or disbelieved right off the bat. Just that his arguments need to be tended to and responded to. That's all.

I will say that... his math [Muehlenkamp's], while correct and somewhat impressive

If it's correct and impressive Drew, then show us the graves.

As I said, the math about pit sizes doesn't prove what did happen but what could have happened.

However if I remember correctly, further on in his Belzec article,
http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... my_28.html
he seems to be on to something when he talks about how many bodies actually could fit in a gas chamber due to height and weight of Jews and also how many kids were involved. Like I said, math is about relations of ideas. Not matters of fact. I mean, I can say that if George Bush put an apple into a box and then added two more apples, he'd have three. That's logically correct but not materially proven. That's what empirical evidence is for and those two need to be linked somehow. Case in point.

Roberto Muehlenkamp

Thursday, May 15, 2008
Greg Gerdes

My argument is that, according to the measurements of the mass graves found in 2001 by Polish archaeologists, the Sobibor mass graves were large enough to hold more or much more than the number of dead bodies reportedly buried in them before the camp staff switched to incinerating the bodies instead of burying them. This in turn means that there is nothing implausible about these mass graves having contained about 80,000 dead bodies.

Maybe such elementary reasoning – if the mass graves could have held more corpses than they are reported to have held, then there’s nothing implausible about the reported figure – is too complex for a "Revisionist" simpleton like Gerdes to grasp.

Could have. Would have. Should have. That's not science I'm afraid.

On this page, he takes issue with Mattogno over the wood.
http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... gy-my.html
It's an interesting read so far.

[offlineDrew J]

What pits Drew?

We're waiting for you to prove the existence of just on pit in each camp that contains human remains.

Well I shouldn't have said pits. Wrong word. I was referring to how he talks about actual grave capacities as he calls it. Largely based on what he calls actual weight and height of Jews
http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... my_28.html
and actual wood requirements.

[offlinePepper]

Drew

Kind of like how Muehlenkamp was banned from here?

No. From what I understand, Muehlenkamp was banned from here for incessant lying.


Drew

Well according to the agreement between the kola map, the O Neil map, the polish commission maps and the bau-reder map. And according to the red dots that in Kola's document represent human remains.

What human remains Drew?

Can you prove that there is so much as one single pit that contains human remains?


Drew

it all goes back to the visual depictions

Don't you mean visual deceptions?


Drew

even Mattogno admits human remains for example in Treblinka.

Where Drew? Can you prove that there is so much as one single pit that contains human remains?


Drew

Merely looking at the sizes of the pits and figuring out what they could hold doesn't cut it. It mathematically shows what COULD HAVE taken place, but doesn't empirically prove WHAT DID take place.

Let's see proof that these alleged pits exist.


Drew

As I said, the math about pit sizes doesn't prove what did happen but what could have happened.

But first you have to prove that there are any pits to begin with.

Let's see the proof Drew.


Drew

he seems to be on to something when he talks about how many bodies actually could fit in a gas chamber

But he can't prove the existence of so much as one single pit that contains human remains at any of the Reinhardt camps.

And it appears that you can't either Drew.

That's why you're dancing around my questions and challenge.

[offlinePepper]

Let me refresh your memory Drew

There's supposed to be 33 mass graves at Belzec, 10 at Sobibor, 6 at Treblinka and 5 at Chelmno which, in total, allegedly contain the remains of over 2 million jews.

So here's my challenge to you Drew.

Prove to us that just one grave at each of these sites actually exists, then tell us how much human remains exist in each of your chosen grave, then prove it.

Now, if "The exterminationists have got us on the Reinhardt transit camps," this challenge should be done in no time.

I can't wait to see your proof Drew.

Numerous posts from Drew.

Zero proof from Drew.


Proof Drew.

Proof.