Gassings at Natzweiler?

[Mkk]

This website has some information on the alleged gassing of 86 Jewish men and women at Natzweiler in August 1943. There are biographies of the victims but it seems this is based upon documentation from Auschwitz (the "victims" were deported from there) and the people presumed to have been killed are those deported on 30th July, and then "gassed" in mid-August.

As usual, though, evidence of the "gassing" itself is lacking.

http://www.die-namen-der-nummern.de/index.html

Josef Kramer is quoted as admitting to the killing of these 86 prisoners - but this is at a French military court in Strasbourg, but he was in British custody at this time?

In his testimony, he refers to both "crystals" and "salts" added to water. The calcium cyanide (which becomes hydrogen cyanide after being added to water) which extermanists believe was used, looks like a "fine powder".

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=5651&p=37755&hilit=August+Hirt#p37755

(Not that Kramer's testimony is reliable elsewhere; he did a complete turnaround on the existence of "gas chambers" at Auschwitz.)

But could this room seriously have been used as a gas chamber? Faurisson writes:

It gets even better. Several years after the war, before both British and French tribunals, the camp officials of Ravensbrück (Suhren, Schwarzhuber and Treite) repeatedly confessed to the existence of a "gas chamber" in their camp. They even vaguely described its operation. Eventually, those who did not commit suicide were executed because of this alleged "gas chamber." The same "confessions" were given prior to their deaths by Ziereis for Mauthausen (Austria) and by Kramer for Struthof-Natzweiler (Alsace).

Today, one can see the alleged "gas chamber" of Struthof-Natzweiler and in the same place one can also read the unbelievable "confession" of Kramer. This "gas chamber," which is designated as an "historical monument," is a complete fraud. The slightest amount of critical spirit will be sufficient to convince oneself that a gassing in this small room, without any sealing whatsoever, would have been a catastrophe for the executioner as well as for the people in the vicinity. In order to make this "gas chamber" (which is guaranteed to be "in its original condition") believable, someone has gone so for as to clumsily knock a hole into the thin wall with a chisel, and thereby break four tiles. The hole was so arranged that Josef Kramer would have dumped through it the mysterious "salts" (about which he could give no further details and which, when mixed with a little water, killed within one minute!). How could salts and water make such a gas? How could Kramer have prevented the gas from coming back out the hole? How could he see his victims from a hole which would have let him see no more than half the room? How did he ventilate the room before opening the rudimentary door, made from rough-cut lumber? Perhaps one must ask the civil engineering firm in Saint-Michel sur-Meurthe (Vosges), which after the war altered the place which today is presented to visitors "in its original condition"?

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3519&hilit=Kramer#p23735

A report finds no evidence of cyanide:

Isn't it true, sir, asked Christie, that Professor René Fabre, toxicologist, was asked in 1945 to examine the [40] corpses of people allegedly gassed at Struthof-Natzweiler, 5 kilometres from Strasbourg in Alsace and scraped things from the van and the alleged chambers where Kramer was supposed to have gassed people, and that the results of that report were that there was no poison evident in his analysis?

"I am not at all familiar with this report," said Hilberg. (5-981)

Was there, in your knowledge, the existence of a single autopsy report to indicate that the cause of death of one person was from the ingestion of hydrocyanic acid or Zyklon B?, asked Christie.

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=100&hilit=Natzweiler+hilberg

So this whole storyline of the gassing at Natzweiler seems questionable. If Kramer had come up with such a affective method why didn't he use it at Auschitwz or tell anyone about it?

[borjastick]

I suppose some rudimentary questions have to be asked, over and above the veracity of the so called chamber's ability to be used as such.

Are there any records of these people, and any others, being sent to Natzweiler?
Are there any records of their names at later dates at any other camp?
Is there any independent eyewitness corroboration to any part of this claim?
What was the background detail to this location?

I haven't read all the articles relating to this claim yet so maybe somethings are answered already.

As usual though the gas chamber itself is full of holes, literally and metaphorically speaking, so we would have to start with the practical aspects of capability.

I have no doubt about the intention to, and likely implementation of some euthanasia within Nazi Germany. However I have still yet to see any evidence or proof of mass gassings or even intent to mass gas thousands of people, on a production line format as the jews claim.

[SKcz]

Leaving aside technical aspect which is clear, I only wonder how somebody can seriously claim that the Germans built gas chamber exclusively for 86 peoples, this sounds so ludicrous, just magine, such a complicated and dangerous device made for 86 peoples. This is more ludicrous when they allegedly used chambers for thousands of peoples gassed all at once. I do not wonder that such a places like Natzweiler are in memory hole and not much propagated in holocaust narrative.

"In August of 1943, 86 Jews, (men and women) from eight European countries, were murdered for the sake of a skeleton collection."

This sounds like a classic atrocity propaganda story.

I have no doubt about the intention to, and likely implementation of some euthanasia within Nazi Germany. However I have still yet to see any evidence or proof of mass gassings or even intent to mass gas thousands of people, on a production line format as the jews claim.

Are you suggesting that some gassing took place as euthanasia program or in some small scale?

Are you suggesting that the Germanas had intention to gas peoples?

[Steven Willow]

Here is the Natzweilor narrative in the standard Hoaxter version, which claims to have the identities of the so called victims, video and photographic evidence of the collection, documents alleging to demonstrate the planners, steps and carrying out of an effort to assemble an anthropological collection representing the anatomical essense of judaism as it existed in the version of Nazi so called psuedo science inherent in Hoaxter deception.

http://www.fold3.com/page/286019621_natzweilerstruthof/

It takes little effort to unravel the contradictions in this Hoaxter tale. Supposedly, the Nazi medical/academic conspirators went to a great deal of difficulty to plan, assemble and murder jews for a museum collection of skeletons in the midst of a so called Holocaust where jewish corpses existed in such a vast superfluous bounty that all of the efforts of German technical knowhow could barely
eradicate the overflow of rotting corpses.

The Hoaxters are asking us to believe that while the Auschwitz Crematoria could not handle the industrial accumulation of death, that resources and effort were needed to gather specimens of these so called victims.

The Natzweilor lies exploit two Hoaxter themes - the use of gas chambers and the so-called Nazi obsession with racial theory and anatomical minutae. It is quite obvious that a scientist in 1943, with no DNA science, could not have differentiated between the skull of an Aryan and that of a jew. Would Dr Hirt have gone to such lengths, or was this another fraudulent attempt by Hoaxters to brainwash the world?

[SnakeTongue]

This story come from the book THE STRUTHOF ALBUM produced by J. C. Pressac for the THE BEATE KLARSFELD FOUNDATION:

We decided to publish a study, for the fortieth anniversary of Hitler’s defeat, devoted to the terrifying episode of the assassination of 87 Jews, including 30 women, for the purpose of constituting a collection of skulls and skeletons to be kept at the Institute of Anatomy of a large German university. Because they were Jewish, these men and women were selected, asphyxiated, dismembered and carved up by men of science. Racist science.

(...)

On our advice, the file was also sent to Yad Vashem and we asked Jean-Claude Pressac to study, in particular, how these Jewish victims were gassed at Struthof.

(...)

Beate and Serge Klarsfeld

http://www.holocaust-history.org/klarsf ... T004.shtml

It is an interesting reading for who is interested in scientific criminology. I studied this case last month but I did not formulate any conclusions yet. This story is a good topic to practise historical investigation and understand how evidence was deliberatively misinterpreted and fabricated by J. C. Pressac.

[blake121666]

It is quite obvious that a scientist in 1943, with no DNA science, could not have differentiated between the skull of an Aryan and that of a jew. Would Dr Hirt have gone to such lengths, or was this another fraudulent attempt by Hoaxters to brainwash the world?

The story is fraudulent of course but many scientists at that time did in fact subscribe to craniology and phrenology and quacky stuff like that with their racial theories. I've read references to these things in history books written around that time.

[Kingfisher]

...many scientists at that time did in fact subscribe to craniology and phrenology and quacky stuff like that with their racial theories. I've read references to these things in history books written around that time.

Indeed. It is important to put Nazi racial theories into their contemporary context. It is dishonest to condemn German racism of the time while ignoring the situation in the rest of the world. Most of the Western world at that time took racial superiority for granted, and discrimination on racial grounds was the norm, whether in the United States, Britain, France and their empires, "no dogs or Chinese" signs in Shanghai, etc.

[Hektor]

It is quite obvious that a scientist in 1943, with no DNA science, could not have differentiated between the skull of an Aryan and that of a jew. Would Dr Hirt have gone to such lengths, or was this another fraudulent attempt by Hoaxters to brainwash the world?

The story is fraudulent of course but many scientists at that time did in fact subscribe to craniology and phrenology and quacky stuff like that with their racial theories. I've read references to these things in history books written around that time.

Craniology (anthropometry) is still done today and is a big issue in the form of biometrics right now And actually experts can determine the race of a person better from the bones then from a photo of the living person. Phrenology attributed certain parts of the brain to specific human faculties. While that of course doesn't work one by one, there is still some merits in it i.e. some parts of the brain working more with intellectual capacities, while others more with motorical functions. It was however found from people in accidents that those function can also migrate making the brain a quite flexible organ.

[Steven Willow]

It is quite obvious that a scientist in 1943, with no DNA science, could not have differentiated between the skull of an Aryan and that of a jew. Would Dr Hirt have gone to such lengths, or was this another fraudulent attempt by Hoaxters to brainwash the world?

The story is fraudulent of course but many scientists at that time did in fact subscribe to craniology and phrenology and quacky stuff like that with their racial theories. I've read references to these things in history books written around that time.

Craniology (anthropometry) is still done today and is a big issue in the form of biometrics right now And actually experts can determine the race of a person better from the bones then from a photo of the living person. Phrenology attributed certain parts of the brain to specific human faculties. While that of course doesn't work one by one, there is still some merits in it i.e. some parts of the brain working more with intellectual capacities, while others more with motorical functions. It was however found from people in accidents that those function can also migrate making the brain a quite flexible organ.

A few posters here have made the point that beliefs about physical and behavioral characteristics based on race (that may have been based on currently outmoded notions) were characteristic of all
nationalities and countries and that racial superstition was as much a part of US tradition as it was a part of Nazi belief. But tales like the Natzweilor gassings and Prof Hirt's skeleton collection are propaganda tales designed to single Nazism out as a uniquely racist philosophy, and to attribute genocidal impulses to these core Nazi beliefs.

I would warn you all to be extra cautious about accepting the bogus story about August Hirt, as the idea that a scientist might gas living beings in order to assemble a museum collection of bones is a Hoaxter ruse to identify Nazism with callous disregard for life and a deep motivation of homicidal racism. Once we accept the Natzweilor gassings, we are on a slippery slope to Hoaxterism.

Likewise, Hoaxters have made it a point to promote forged and fraudulent documents supposedly used as Nazi propaganda to corrupt young Germans and gain their support for genocide. How many of these documents are post war fabrications? We should be careful about this sort of nonsense http://www.calvin.edu/academic/cas/gpa/story3.htm

[Mkk]

Likewise, Hoaxters have made it a point to promote forged and fraudulent documents supposedly used as Nazi propaganda to corrupt young Germans and gain their support for genocide. How many of these documents are post war fabrications? We should be careful about this sort of nonsense http://www.calvin.edu/academic/cas/gpa/story3.htm

That is from Giftpilz, a genuine anti-jewish childrens book. Here's a pdf version in German with illustrations. http://www.zdj.se/der_giftpilz_ernst_hi ... ed_zdd.pdf

[Steven Willow]

Likewise, Hoaxters have made it a point to promote forged and fraudulent documents supposedly used as Nazi propaganda to corrupt young Germans and gain their support for genocide. How many of these documents are post war fabrications? We should be careful about this sort of nonsense http://www.calvin.edu/academic/cas/gpa/story3.htm

That is from Giftpilz, a genuine anti-jewish childrens book. Here's a pdf version in German with illustrations. http://www.zdj.se/der_giftpilz_ernst_hi ... ed_zdd.pdf

Mkk, all forged and hoaxed documents were originally hoaxed in German, but that hardly makes them authentic. You are probably aware of a number of jewish web sites promoting so called "Nazi propaganda," that expressly states that jews should be destroyed. Obviously, such propaganda is no kind of proof thaty there were death camps and gas chambers, but these writings (which I believe are either deceptively edited or wholly forged) do add to the jewish fraudulent narrative that would have us believe that "Nazi philosophy" advocated the murder of the jews. Here is another example from the "Calvin Collection" of so called "Nazi Propaganda"

The path to world domination.

The Jewish principle of “the equality of all those with a human face” was enthroned in 1789. All people are equal, only individuals. The Jewish principle was that of unrestrained individualism. In every “open competition,” he was the victor, since he was by nature the most self-centered. That was the epitome of justice. All could operate from self interest. He who did not was stupid. After the first enthusiasm had passed, people realized that thousands and thousands were not equal to the race, and they were named proletarians. But the Jews had a way out for them too, their “socialism” in Marxist clothing.

Jewish plutocracy and Jewish communism are after the German people who have escaped their slavery.


V. The battle to the end.

The Jew wants to force us back to a life of slavery so that he can live off us as a parasite and suck us dry. The healthy life of our people stands against the parasitic life of the Jew.

Who in this struggle can still speak of pity, brotherly love, etc.? Who believes that a parasite (e.g., a louse) can be improved or changed? Who believes that one can come to an agreement with a parasite? We can only choose between being devoured by the parasite or destroying it.


The Jew must be destroyed wherever we meet him!

In so doing, we commit no crime against life, but rather serve life’s laws of battle, which always oppose that which is an enemy to healthy life. Our battle serves to maintain life.


A German victory — the victory of the created order.

I cannot prove that this example is a forgery, but without question, this sort of thing serves the jewish agenda which is the lie of a Nazi WW II genocide. Since we know that Hoaxters often resorted to forgery (I.E. "The Jaeger Report") why wouldn't the Hoaxters have also forged so called "Nazi Propaganda" in order to make it appear as though the innocent Germans were hell bent on destroying jews?