joachim neander has names of 2 'gassed'

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Inquisitive
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joachim neander has names of 2 'gassed'

Postby Inquisitive » 9 years 2 weeks ago (Sun Jan 31, 2010 9:11 am)

This is from the Forgeries of the Auschwitz Resistance thread
Mr. Neander wrote:

Greg Gerdes wrote:Oh nick, we're still waiting for the name of just one jew who died in a "gas chamber," remember?

I can give you two names. But this would be off-topic here.

I will start a new thread for you, Mr. Neander that we may all see the names of the two gassed and discuss it with you. We have been waiting a long time for a name and now there appears to be two. Now you won't be at all off topic.
Thank you in advance for this valuable information.


Mr. Neander, here is the new thread as promised. Could you kindly give us the names of the two people gassed in Auschwitz that you mentioned to Mr. Gerdes?



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joachim neander
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Re: joachim neander has names of 2 gassed

Postby joachim neander » 9 years 2 weeks ago (Sun Jan 31, 2010 4:55 pm)

Among the few extant documents from Auschwitz, an important piece is the "Bunkerbuch," the ledger of the camp prison (Kommandanturarrest) that was in the basement of Block 11. For September 5, 1941, it records three "intakes":
[Camp no.] 11179 - Renner, Fritz - [born] 21.12.99 [in] Breslau - Maschinenarb[eiter] - Bl[ock] 14 - ver[storben] 5.9.41
15083 - Grosmann, Bruno - 17.1.81 - Breslau - Schuhmacher - Bl. 14 - ver. 5.9.41
10992 - Drost, Roman - 10.12.99 - Slupno - Landwirt - Bl. 18a - vers. 5.9.41.
Renner had arrived at Auschwitz on April 4, Grosmann on April 11, 1941, with a prisoner transport from the Reich (Sammeltransport) (Source: Czech, Auschwitz Chronicle). Both were German nationals, and their names even seem to point to Jewish descent. Drost must have been a Polish national.
They all died the same day when the first mass gassing was carried out in the basement of Block 11 (date Sep 5, 1941, according to reports that, shortly after the event, reached the Polish Government-in-Exile in London).
This "action" was observed by dozens of prisoners who were involved in preparing the basement of Block 11 for gassing, in the evacuation of the prison, in the transport of sick prisoners from the camp hospital to the cells of Block 11, who saw the arrival of the Soviet POWs to be killed, and who transported the corpses from the cells in the basement to the small crematorium (Krema I) for disposal. One of those involved in this "action" was the German electricians' kapo Alfred Rögner. He remembered in U.S. captivity in 1946:
Es befanden sich im Arrest aber immer noch 2 Deutsche, diese kamen nicht heraus ... es wurde ihnen vom 1. Lagerarzt erklärt, sie sollten vorzeitig entlassen werden, wenn sie sich bereit erklären, dass sie eine kurze Kur mitmachen wollten. (In the prison, there were still 2 Germans, they were not released ... The 1st Camp Physician had told them they would be released early if they agreed to participate in a short treatment.)

Rögner could not have known the prison ledger, his testimony is therefore an independent corroboration.

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Re: joachim neander has names of 2 gassed

Postby Friedrich Paul Berg » 9 years 2 weeks ago (Sun Jan 31, 2010 6:04 pm)

That is at best only "circumstantial evidence" for g-a-s-s-i-n-g.
For one thing Grossman, Drost, and Renner were NOT Soviet prisoners at all--so, there is already a gross inconsistency with the Block 11 gas chamber story for September 5, 1941. There is NO "independent corroboration" here at all, merely the odd detail or coincidence that Grossman, Drost and Renner seem to have died on the very same day in which a gassing supposedly occurred purely on the basis of some "eyewitness" fairy tales. As usual, they has absolutely nothing better to offer even with their extraordinary access to the Auschwitz camp archives.

Joachim Neander's presentation here is additional confirmation for the revisionist position that there is absolutely NO documentary evidence that even one person was ever gassed by the SS and Nazis at Auschwitz, or anywhere else.

Friedrich Paul Berg
Learn everything at http://www.nazigassings.com
Nazi Gassings Never Happened! Niemand wurde vergast!
The Holocaust story is a hoax because 1) no one was killed by the Nazis in gas chambers, 2) the total number of Jews who died in Nazi captivity is miniscule compared to what is alleged.

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Re: joachim neander has names of 2 gassed

Postby joachim neander » 9 years 2 weeks ago (Sun Jan 31, 2010 7:08 pm)

Dear Mr. Berg

And would you please be so kind and read my post carefully? Where did I say that Grosmann, Renner and Drost were Soviet prisoners?

There is a clear testimony of a German prisoner who was involved in the September 5, 1941, gassing action in the "Bunker" saying that all prisoners except two Germans were taken out, before the sick prisoners from the hospital and the Soviet POWs were crammed into the cells. We have a clear document proving that two Germans, committed to the bunker on September 5, 1941, died the same day. How can you claim that they probably might not have been harmed? And as they were not taken out of the "Bunker" - where else would they have died? Do you deny the dozens of testimonies, some of them given immediately after the event, that the day after, all those in the "Bunker" were dead? And how would you explain that those prisoners who were present testified that they saw that SS men poured the content of Zyklon-B cans through the peepholes of the cells?

If you do not accept my string of argumentation, could you please tell me what YOU would accept as a "proof"?

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Re: joachim neander has names of 2 gassed

Postby grenadier » 9 years 2 weeks ago (Sun Jan 31, 2010 8:42 pm)

JN
Among the few extant documents from Auschwitz, an important piece is the "Bunkerbuch," the ledger of the camp prison (Kommandanturarrest) that was in the basement of Block 11. For September 5, 1941, it records three "intakes":
[Camp no.] 11179 - Renner, Fritz - [born] 21.12.99 [in] Breslau - Maschinenarb[eiter] - Bl[ock] 14 - ver[storben] 5.9.41
15083 - Grosmann, Bruno - 17.1.81 - Breslau - Schuhmacher - Bl. 14 - ver. 5.9.41
10992 - Drost, Roman - 10.12.99 - Slupno - Landwirt - Bl. 18a - vers. 5.9.41.[...]


Yawwnnn! :bounce: Old stuff eh Mr.Neander? Nothing really new here at all, Mr.Berg is correct that you should really be ashamed of yourself for peddling this sort of thing as proof for homicidal gassings. For those that may want to know more about these alleged gassings at Auschwitz, read Mattognos excellent book on it called "Auschwitz: The first gassing - Rumor and Reality".

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Re: joachim neander has names of 2 gassed

Postby joachim neander » 9 years 2 weeks ago (Sun Jan 31, 2010 9:00 pm)

Sorry, grenadier, but Carlo Mattogno does neither take into consideration the "Bunker" ledger nor the Rögner report nor the accounts of the Polish prisoners who were involved in the September 5, 1941, "action."

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Re: joachim neander has names of 2 gassed

Postby Carto's Cutlass Supreme » 9 years 2 weeks ago (Sun Jan 31, 2010 10:52 pm)

Neander is right that he never said "Soviet prisoners." He mentioned two being German nationals. He then asks Berg
Where did I say that Grosmann, Renner and Drost were Soviet prisoners?

But Berg prefers to dodge the question.

People here should be able to refute Neander's allegation. If there's a Mattogno passage to refer to, then please tell us, Grenadier, what's in that book and why it's relevant.

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Re: joachim neander has names of 2 gassed

Postby Friedrich Paul Berg » 9 years 2 weeks ago (Sun Jan 31, 2010 11:22 pm)

I never accused Neander of claiming that Grossman, Renner and Drost were Soviet prisoners. The problem for Neander is that it was supposedly, on the basis of "eyewitnesses," that the gassings were of Soviet prisoners. Since G, R & D were not Soviet prisoners, there is a clear inconsistency in Neander's fairy tale.

The only connection between the deaths of G, R & D to the alleged gassing story is that they seemed to have died on the same day as 2 Germans, according to "kapo Alfred Rögner" in US "captivity (why?), entered something (who knows what??) but failed to come out (diese kamen nicht heraus). WOW! If the holocaust "evidence" ever gets any hoakier than that, please let me know. "They failed to come out" so they must have been killed in a gas chamber? Three non-Soviet prisoners died on the same day as some "eyewitnesses" claimed there was a gassing. Where is the connection?

Friedrich Paul Berg
Learn everything at http://www.nazigassings.com
Nazi Gassings Never Happened! Niemand wurde vergast!
The Holocaust story is a hoax because 1) no one was killed by the Nazis in gas chambers, 2) the total number of Jews who died in Nazi captivity is miniscule compared to what is alleged.

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Re: joachim neander has names of 2 gassed

Postby joachim neander » 9 years 2 weeks ago (Mon Feb 01, 2010 11:56 am)

Dear Mr. Berg,

I am not surprised that you reject all reports of people who were present at the "action," also from those who were not passive "eyewitnesses," but were involved in the "action": those who sealed the windows, those who led the prisoners who were in the cells out of the prison, except the two Breslauers, those who carried the sick fellow-prisoners from the hospital to the cells, and those who, the day after, carried the corpses out and brought them to the crematorium. You cannot compare them with shepherd boys who allegedly sighted the Holy Virgin - or what do you mean with your mentioning of "the miracles of the Catholic Church"?

If you reject my string of argumentation - could you please tell me, what YOU would accept as "a proof"? I already asked you this in an earlier post, and you should answer this question if you want to be taken seriously.

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Re: joachim neander has names of 2 gassed

Postby Carto's Cutlass Supreme » 9 years 2 weeks ago (Mon Feb 01, 2010 1:48 pm)

How did the information get to the Polish government in exile? And are they credible? Because they did disseminate anti-German propaganda. For instance Emmanuel Scwarzbart of the government in exile is the way Yankel Wiernik's A Year in Treblinka made it into the West if I'm not mistaking. And also the so-called "November 1942" report.

Also, I don't know much about Danuta Czech. Is there any revisionist criticism of her?

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Re: joachim neander has names of 2 gassed

Postby grenadier » 9 years 2 weeks ago (Mon Feb 01, 2010 2:20 pm)

CCS
Also, I don't know much about Danuta Czech. Is there any revisionist criticism of her?


Not specifically that I know of, but if you had bothered to read the book by Mattogno which I have mentioned earlier in this thread, you'd find plenty of criticism of Danuta's methodology.

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Re: joachim neander has names of 2 gassed

Postby Carto's Cutlass Supreme » 9 years 2 weeks ago (Mon Feb 01, 2010 3:18 pm)

O.k. so the refutation of Neander's naming 2 people gassed lies in a book we should read, and reading the whole book and not relevant excerpts is the only way to understand how Neander's allegation is refuted.

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Re: joachim neander has names of 2 gassed

Postby joachim neander » 9 years 2 weeks ago (Mon Feb 01, 2010 4:44 pm)

Carto's Cutlass Supreme wrote:How did the information get to the Polish government in exile? And are they credible? Because they did disseminate anti-German propaganda.

There was a network of Polish political prisoners who gathered all information about the camp which they found interesting. They conveyed it as "grypsy" (Polish; in German "Kassiber") to the local and regional residents of the "Delegatura," a kind of Polish underground shadow government, who sent this by courier or radio to the Government-in-Exile in London. The "anti-German propaganda" you obviously refer to was made in London, based on the source information. The original grypsy, in their majority, have survived and are in various archives, in Poland, the UK, and the U.S. They may not be confused with the propaganda material and must be treated, of course, critically such as all sources in history.

In the case discussed here there is a gryps dating the killing of ca. 250 sick prisoners and ca. 600 Soviet POWs as on Sep 5, 1941. As it is a contemporary gryps, the date has a high probability to be true. The event described, too, as it took about four days from making the basement of Block 11 (at that time, Block 13), the "Bunker," gas-tight, evacuating the prisoners from the "Bunker," carrying the 250 sick prisoners from the camp hospital down to the cells, cramming the 600 POWs into the other cells, ventilating the "Bunker," and dragging the corpses out of it and to the crematorium. The whole event took place in the middle of the main camp and could be observed by the majority of the prisoner population. Dozens of them were directly involved in the "action" as "auxiliary staff." Ignoring this or trying to discuss this away is impossible.

We have as a fact that, in the evening of Sep 5, 1941, about 850 persons were alive in the Bunker, and in the morning of Sep 6, 1941, all in the Bunker were dead. That means they had died during the night, a fact that Revisionists should accept. Those who later dragged the corpses out of the Bunker testified that none showed wounds. So death by shooting or beating can be excluded. The SS allowed the clearing of the Bunker from the corpses only after nearly one day of ventilation. Why, if not because the air was poisoned? Even if we did not have the later testimonies of SS personnel, who unanimously testified that gas (Zyklon B) was used, there is no way out than to accept that the Bunker inmates were killed by poison gas. And among those killed in the Bunker were the two Germans from Breslau, whose names I have given.

I've read Mattogno's book, of course. He does not address the sources I mention, so he does not refute my argument. Nor does Mr. Berg with his name-calling.

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Re: joachim neander has names of 2 gassed

Postby Greg Gerdes » 9 years 2 weeks ago (Mon Feb 01, 2010 6:19 pm)

Let's look again at the "proof" that these two alleged "gassing victims" were jews:

JN:

Both were German nationals, and their names even seem to point to Jewish descent.



Well now, if their names "SEEM" to "POINT" to "jewish descent," then what more proof is needed?

Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha.
joachim, you're sense of humor is priceless.

joachim
If you do not accept my string of argumentation, could you please tell me what YOU would accept as a "proof"?

So a "string of argumentation" is "proof?"

Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha.

joachim, you're sense of humor is priceless.

NO really joahcim. No more funny business, my sides can't take it.

Let's see some proof JN.

You do have proof, don't you?

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Re: joachim neander has names of 2 gassed

Postby Greg Gerdes » 9 years 2 weeks ago (Mon Feb 01, 2010 6:33 pm)

* grenadier

For a very short refutation of JN's nonsense, Mr.Bergs last post does it.


Exactly. Good point grenadier.

FPB

Just because I did not jump in right away with an answer to Neander's rebuttal does not mean I have no answer, or that I am "dodging" anything.

FPB


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