Resources from a leftist perspective?

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MLM1966
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Resources from a leftist perspective?

Postby MLM1966 » 1 month 1 week ago (Sun May 16, 2021 1:24 am)

I’m a leftist and I admit it. No need to hide around the facts with that. The real question is, where can I find good resources on the Holocaust question from a leftist perspective besides from Garaudy or other random French intellectuals?

Let me tell you, Stalin was not fond of this nonsense neither. Look at the archives. He explicitly denies the mythology that Jews were exterminated or special. So what gives? Give an old Stalinist* like me a chance. I’m here to learn. If you have any resources that take the question from the leftist perspective, let me know.

Thanks.

*Yeah, I’m a Marxist. Old timey, New Communist Movement type. Call me whatever.

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Re: Resources from a leftist perspective?

Postby Hannover » 1 month 1 week ago (Sun May 16, 2021 12:32 pm)

MLM1966 wrote:I’m a leftist and I admit it. No need to hide around the facts with that. The real question is, where can I find good resources on the Holocaust question from a leftist perspective besides from Garaudy or other random French intellectuals?

Let me tell you, Stalin was not fond of this nonsense neither. Look at the archives. He explicitly denies the mythology that Jews were exterminated or special. So what gives? Give an old Stalinist* like me a chance. I’m here to learn. If you have any resources that take the question from the leftist perspective, let me know.

Thanks.

*Yeah, I’m a Marxist. Old timey, New Communist Movement type. Call me whatever.

MLM1966,

There is no 'left or right perspective', there is only the facts, wherever they fall.

Since you say you are a communist, and knowing that communists typically do promote the fake & impossible 'holocaust' narrative, I suggest you then search communist sources. If you find something let us know. However, I guarantee you that we have already covered it.

I do find it odd that an avowed communist is asking for communist resources.

Welcome, Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Re: Resources from a leftist perspective?

Postby EtienneSC » 1 month 1 week ago (Sun May 16, 2021 2:54 pm)

That's an interesting question. Firstly, Paul Rassinier was a Trotskyist socialist and the founder of French revisionism. He argued in The Lie of Ulysses (1951) and other works that the Stalinist communist party had gained control of the camps (as Kapos) and had later fabricated many of the horror stories set in them to justify themselves,. On Rassinier's account, they were the only group organised and ruthless enough to take on rival groups and gain the trust of the SS camp authorities. Having been in the camps himself Rassinier had seen mistreatment and deaths. Much of his work is available in English.

Other Leftist critics are the Le grand alibi group (syndicalists also active in Italy) and Pierre Guillaume (of Vieux Taupe), who published one of Faurisson's early works. Marxist theorist Georg Lukacs shared the view you attribute to Stalin, though he didn't write much specifically on the subject: it just wasn't such a big issue in Eastern Europe before 1990.

Most revisionist work is apolitical as regards content, though there is certainly a right-wing presence. Some Jewish or Israeli revisionist sympathisers might be called left wing, if only because they find themselves at odds with the current largely nationalist and right-leaning Israeli governing consensus.

There are various studies and lectures about varieties of revisionism, if you care to look them out. Here is a lecture that caught my eye some years ago, for example:

Most Western treatments of revisionism are ill-informed denunciations of it - whether they are from left, center or right..
Last edited by EtienneSC on Sun May 16, 2021 3:09 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Resources from a leftist perspective?

Postby fireofice » 1 month 1 week ago (Sun May 16, 2021 3:08 pm)

There is a history of holocaust revisionism from certain segments of communists, specifically anti-Stalinist communists. This video, from an orthodox perspective, goes over some of the history of these communists here, about 15-16 minutes in:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BuDI0j10AHM

Paul Rassinier was a communist and is also considered "the father of holocaust denial". Although he wasn't the first to deny the holocaust (the very first would be actual Nazis, like Himmler and others) but as far as I can see, he was the first to do somewhat of a big investigation into it (I am not certain about this, so others can correct me if I am wrong). So you can read some of his stuff if you want a communist perspective.

Let me tell you, Stalin was not fond of this nonsense neither. Look at the archives. He explicitly denies the mythology that Jews were exterminated or special.


This isn't really true. It is true that the Soviet Union did say quite a bit about how the Nazis were mean to everyone in the war, but it doesn't follow that they never played up anything about the Jews. This is a bizarre leap many people make, although you are certainly not the first to do it.

That is refuted on page 191-192 in this book here:

http://holocausthandbooks.com/dl/39-te.pdf

Documents are cited which shows that the Soviets are just as guilty as playing up the Jewish holocaust narrative as anyone else.

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Re: Resources from a leftist perspective?

Postby Carto's Cutlass Supreme » 1 month 1 week ago (Sun May 16, 2021 9:55 pm)

Look at the archives. He (Stalin) explicitly denies the mythology that Jews were exterminated or special.

I don't think so. LOL.

A big left angle that comes to my mind is the holocaust myth was necessary for Jewish European Colonialism in Israel. Colonialism is such a big part of Marxist thought, and here was Euro Jewish colonialism. So the USSR supported Egypt and the US supported Israel. With that break in 1947 or so the Soviet Union became anti-Zionist. This put a lot of Soviet Union Jews in a dilemma. A lot of Jews then became pro-USA anti-Soviet. But at the time, I don't know if anyone wrote on this explaining it this way, or mentioning the holocaust myth as such a root part of it.

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Re: Resources from a leftist perspective?

Postby Merlin300 » 1 month 1 week ago (Sun May 16, 2021 11:50 pm)

MLM1966 wrote:I’m a leftist and I admit it. No need to hide around the facts with that. The real question is, where can I find good resources on the Holocaust question from a leftist perspective besides from Garaudy or other random French intellectuals?

Let me tell you, Stalin was not fond of this nonsense neither. Look at the archives. He explicitly denies the mythology that Jews were exterminated or special. So what gives? Give an old Stalinist* like me a chance. I’m here to learn. If you have any resources that take the question from the leftist perspective, let me know.

Thanks.

*Yeah, I’m a Marxist. Old timey, New Communist Movement type. Call me whatever.


Greetings MLM1966 from the Hard Right-
As a Preface to your question-
National Socialism was a revolutionary movement close to Communism in its respect for the working class but without the doctrine of
Class Warfare. Please see thread in this forum The Socialism in National Socialism. Völksgemeinschaft as an economic success.

The National Socialists were opposed to capitalism as far as it led to the exploitation of the Volk working class and demeaned the value of work.
But they were also opposed to Communism because it was based on the belief in class warfare. Class conflict did not figure into the NSDAP conception of socialism and was seen as harmful to the concept of Völksgemeinschaft.

“Ideology played a secondary role in Hitler’s economic policies. For reasons of expediency, Hitler did not attempt to nazify the economy. Instead, he left the actual running of the economy to experts in business and industry, while instituting a large amount of control from above to force cooperation and compliance with his economic objectives. So long as they cooperated, big business and industry profited by this relationship. In essence, the German economy under Hitler was neither totally free nor totally controlled.”
Joseph Bendersky, historian

But the result was that both English Capitalists/Imperialists and Soviet Stalinists hated National Socialism as a threat to their economic ideologies.
The Stalinist perspective is that National Socialism was really just Capitalism of steroids.
The English propagandists pushed the story that the Germans wanted to conquer the World and kill everyone who was not blond and blue eyed.
Don't expect honesty from either of these groups.
Amazingly Prisim writes the total Bullsh*t

Kershaw's version of things more accurately reflects what was really happening in Germany from 1933 through 1935. Hitler's economic policies were systematically wrecking the German economy and were rapidly painting him into a corner were his only choices were war or a loss of power.


It was French and English Leftists which cracked the lies of the Nuremberg Show Trials.

But I agree with Hanover...
"There is no 'left or right perspective', there are only the facts,"
Go with the Truth.

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Re: Resources from a leftist perspective?

Postby Archie » 1 month 1 week ago (Mon May 17, 2021 2:01 am)

Many revisionists, whatever their views, take a more or less apolitical approach. My understanding is that there was more revisionism on the left in Europe compared to America but now revisionism is illegal in most of Europe. As far as I know, there are no organized efforts on the left to promote holocaust revisionism. There must be at least a few individual leftists who are revisionists, especially on the anti-Zionist left. Norman Finkelstein is not a revisionist but he's a fairly liberal critic of Zionism and the "Holocaust Industry" and his publisher, Verso, is a left-wing publisher. There were some liberal critiques of Nuremberg back in the day but again this is not really revisionism per se.

Joel Hayward in his master's thesis made some attempt to investigate this systematically. It's in the introduction. He concluded that revisionism skews to the right but the characterization of it as inherently right-wing/anti-Semitic/fascist/neo-Nazi is not accurate.

Claims that Revisionists are necessarily anti-Semites and neo-Nazis with extreme right social and political ideologies do appear at first sight to be well-founded. Most anti-Semitic and neo-Nazi groups promote the Revisionist interpretation of the Holocaust, as even a quick glance through their unsavory newspapers reveals. Upon closer scrutiny, however, it becomes evident that these claims are probably not sustainable. Whilst the majority of anti-Semites and neo-Nazis promote Revisionism, the majority of Revisionists do not promote anti-Semitism and neo-Nazism.

The present writer selected at random 110 organisations listed in Laird Wilcox’s Guide to the American Right: Directory and Bibliography (1991 edition)[20], and sent them all an identically-worded letter asking if they were active in either the dissemination of Holocaust Revisionist material or efforts to oppose and prevent its dissemination. 110 organisations listed in Wilcox’s Guide to the American Left: Directory and Bibliography (1991 edition), were also selected at random and sent the same letter. It was also sent to 60 randomly-selected organisations listed in the directory of ‘foreign’ right-wing groups compiled by Ed Nowicki of Willow Springs, Illinois, who works closely with various Ku Klux Klan and neo-Nazi groups. A similar list for left-wing groups outside the United States was not available.

Replies were received from 69 American right-wing organizations. Of these, 27 (39%) said they were active in the dissemination of Holocaust Revisionist material, whilst none said they were involved in efforts to oppose and prevent its dissemination. Replies were received from 46 American left-wing organizations. Of these, only 4 (8.5%) said they were active in the dissemination of Holocaust Revisionist material, whilst 9 (19.5%) said they were involved in efforts to oppose and prevent its dissemination. Replies were received from 41 right-wing organizations in a variety of countries (including Argentina, Austria, Brazil, France, Germany, Holland, South Africa and Spain). Of these, 13 (36%) said they were active in the dissemination of Holocaust Revisionist material. None said they opposed its dissemination.

Because of the small number of letters sent and the even smaller number of replies received, this survey exercise obviously has a high margin of potential error. Nonetheless, it at least allows conclusions to be made which are based on evidence more substantial than the claims of groups with known biases. Of the 27 American right-wing groups actively supporting Revisionism, only 2 appear to promote Nazi themes and symbolism, whilst 9 appear to advocate strong ethnic or racial chauvinism (without any Nazism). The other 16 appear to have libertarian, conservative or fundamentalist Christian focuses with no strong evidence of fascism or anti-Semitism. Of the 13 right-wing groups outside the United States, only 1 appears to promote Nazi themes and symbolism, whilst 4 appear to advocate strong ethnic or racial chauvinism. The other 8 show no evidence of fascism or anti-Semitism. Thus, it appears that most right-wing groups are not interested in Holocaust Revisionism. Moreover, the majority of right-wing groups which do actively support Revisionism are not anti-Semitic or neo-Nazi. These findings clearly contradict the claims of anti-Revisionists.

Additionally, four left-wing groups informed this writer that they actively support Holocaust Revisionism. All four groups have traditional liberal focuses. None exhibit ethnic or racial chauvinism. Whilst these groups are far outnumbered by left-wing groups actively opposing Revisionism, their position demonstrates that Revisionism is not exclusively right-wing. Indeed, several of France’s leading Revisionists are leftists (as was Paul Rassinier, the very first Holocaust Revisionist). It should also be remembered that Wilcox’s political guides only list groups and organisations that are perceived to be leftwing or right-wing. They do not list those which would be classed loosely as ‘centrist’. Moreover, they do not list individuals. There are countless Revisionists around the world who are not involved in right-wing or left-wing groups or organizations, or who are not politically-active in any relevant sense.

Thus, the results of this writer’s small survey suggest that Holocaust Revisionism is actively supported by a sizeable minority (but nowhere near a majority) of right-wing groups, whilst it is actively opposed by a sizeable minority of left-wing groups. Yet its support does not come only from the right; a small amount comes from the left. Doubtless some also comes from persons of neither the left, nor the right. Of the right-wing organizations and groups supporting Holocaust Revisionism, only a minority are anti-Semitic or fascistic (an important point to note). Therefore, claims that Revisionists are necessarily anti-Semites and neo-Nazis with extreme-right ideologies appear to be groundless.

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Re: Resources from a leftist perspective?

Postby borjastick » 1 month 1 week ago (Mon May 17, 2021 5:45 am)

The left/right thing is quite interesting because if you look at many jews they seem to be very left wing except where israel is concerned then they become extreme right wing haters of anything that objects to their viewpoint.

I mean surely Stalin loved the jews. he wanted to give them their own state called Birobaijan in the extreme east of the country. They could have all gone there and not bothered Palestine. Happy Days!
'Of the four million Jews under Nazi control in WW2, six million died and alas only five million survived.'

'We don't need evidence, we have survivors' - israeli politician

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Re: Resources from a leftist perspective?

Postby HMSendeavour » 1 month 1 week ago (Mon May 17, 2021 6:19 am)

MLM1966 wrote:Let me tell you, Stalin was not fond of this nonsense neither. Look at the archives. He explicitly denies the mythology that Jews were exterminated or special. So what gives?


I've seen no evidence that the Soviets, let alone Stalin himself, had no interest in promulgating the Holocaust myth. This is unbelievable because it's due to the Soviets that many ridiculous stories and pieces of "evidence" for the Holocaust exist today, it was them after all, who laid the foundation of the myth with their ridiculous documents at Nuremberg.

See:

Companion to the video, PDF file.

Also see C.W. Porter's full-length book:

Made In Russia: The Holocaust
PDF File

9781648580147.jpg


These weren't the only fake war crimes the Soviets invented, also see Porter's smaller booklet Soviet Evidence At Nuremberg
Now what does it mean for the independent expert witness Van Pelt? In his eyes he had two possibilities. Either to confirm the Holocaust story, or to go insane. - Germar Rudolf, 13th IHR Conference.

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Re: Resources from a leftist perspective?

Postby borjastick » 1 month 1 week ago (Mon May 17, 2021 6:45 am)

It was pure deflection as used in modern times by all great TV magicians. They get you to look over there while they do something right here under your nose. Russia was desperate to paint Germany as the evil empire so they, the Russians could get away with mass murder on a scale way above that claimed in the holocaust.
'Of the four million Jews under Nazi control in WW2, six million died and alas only five million survived.'

'We don't need evidence, we have survivors' - israeli politician


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