Challenge to supporters of the "transit camp" theory

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Hektor
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Re: Challenge to supporters of the "transit camp" theory

Postby Hektor » 2 months 3 days ago (Mon Jul 17, 2017 6:28 am)

Reviso wrote:
Hektor wrote:
Reviso wrote:
May I ask where these names come from ? Were these people evacuated to the East ? Thanks.
R.

They come from a variety of sources mostly "personal" testimony from partisans, but also ordinary people. Yes, from the testimony/documents it appeared they were Jews evacuated from West to East (Minsk).


Thanks. Did they stay in some of the camps Chelmno, Belzec, Sobibór or Treblinka ?


They were people with quite different biographies; and from different sources by that. What exact routes they followed can be read in the documents of which many are in Yad Vashem. I don't think the reports are 100% complete, though.


Reviso wrote:I wonder if it is really necessary to prove that Jews were evacuated to the East via Chelmno, Belzec, Sobibór or Treblinka. If I'm not wrong, Eric Hunt has shown that Chelmno, Belzec, Sobibór or Treblinka were used as transit camps, even if not to the East. On the other hand, it seems certain that Jews were evacuated to the East, even if not via Chelmno, Belzec, Sobibór or Treblinka. Thus, where is the problem ?

In any case, I would like to know what Roberto has to say about your list.

They were used as transit camps and there is reference made to this in official records, although I don't have that at hand right now.

Most people transferred through those camps, probably did not know they were ever at those places. Just another train station. I don't recall through which towns I traveled years ago, neither.



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Re: Challenge to supporters of the "transit camp" theory

Postby Metal Murphy » 2 months 3 days ago (Mon Jul 17, 2017 3:27 pm)

It's the implausibility of the murder methods, that's what made me realize that these were transit camps. You'd think the Germans, with all of their technical knowledge, would come up with a better execution method.

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Re: Challenge to supporters of the "transit camp" theory

Postby CWhite » 2 months 1 day ago (Wed Jul 19, 2017 9:01 pm)

I see over on that "other site" that Roberto Muehlenkamp is pretending to not know the difference between "beyond a reasonable doubt" and "beyond a shadow of a doubt."

:lol:

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Re: Challenge to supporters of the "transit camp" theory

Postby CWhite » 2 months 1 day ago (Wed Jul 19, 2017 9:10 pm)

More interesting stuff from that "other forum:"

Greg Gerdes asked Muehlenkamp:

How many names is it possible for the "supporters of the 'transit camp' theory" to gather?


And Roberto answered:

Zero, meaning that the "transit camp" theory is just hollow humbug. If it were not, "Revisionists" would be wading in evidence showing that all or a substantial part of the aforementioned Jews were not murdered at the mentioned camps but transported from there to what Korherr called the "Russian East". Names of such "transited" Jews would be all over the place. But "Revisionists" cannot provide even one name of a Jewish individual duly proven to have ben "transited" via these camps to the "Russian East". Which means they have lost the came and should pack up.


Then Greg Gerdes said:

So roberto admits to having set up a "challenge" which he alleges cannot be won.


And Roberto confirmed the admission with this:

That's not an admission but a point. The fact that the challenge can't be met shows the intellectual bankruptcy of "Revisionism"...

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Re: Challenge to supporters of the "transit camp" theory

Postby Hannover » 2 months 1 day ago (Wed Jul 19, 2017 9:18 pm)

CWhite wrote:I see over on that "other site" that Roberto Muehlenkamp is pretending to not know the difference between "beyond a reasonable doubt" and "beyond a shadow of a doubt."

That's the same site where Roberto & 'onetruth' claim that '100 Remarks in English by Nazis' prove extermination.'

But when challenged to produce the original texts for those faked 'remarks' they fail to do so, even though both claim they can. :lol:

What do we see? Nothing. It's all bluff, which is the way the 'holocaust' storyline is. All empty claims & bluff.

Yep, another massive dodge by Roberto.

- Hannover

The 'holocaust' storyline is one of the most easily debunked narratives ever contrived. That is why those who question it are arrested and persecuted. That is why violent, racist, & privileged Jewish supremacists demand censorship. What sort of truth is it that denies free speech and the freedom to seek the truth? Truth needs no protection from scrutiny.
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Re: Challenge to supporters of the "transit camp" theory

Postby borjastick » 2 months 19 hours ago (Thu Jul 20, 2017 2:13 am)

Reading the above comments over a cup of tea and chocolate biscuit this early morning, I am left thinking that if we supposedly cannot prove they went east and there is zero proof of murder and massive piles of remains at the camps, where are they? We all know the numbers of jews claimed to have been controlled and brutalised by the Germans couldn't have possibly been true.

To me roberto and co are full of hot air and bull. They must take extra strength-dodging pills each morning. They never accept the premise of any question they know they cannot answer with a positive slant on the exterminationists position. So they duck and dive, weave and wobble, divert and scheme.

The bottom line to anyone not hell bent on proving jewish victim hood, is that the simple common sense logic of the stories about Treblinka etc shows that while there were deaths in transit, there could never have been any mass murder on anything like the scale claimed and perhaps none at all.
'Of the four million Jews under Nazi control in WW2, six million died and alas only five million survived.'

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Re: Challenge to supporters of the "transit camp" theory

Postby Atigun » 2 months 18 hours ago (Thu Jul 20, 2017 3:09 am)

Metal Murphy wrote:It's the implausibility of the murder methods, that's what made me realize that these were transit camps. You'd think the Germans, with all of their technical knowledge, would come up with a better execution method.


It's not just the implausibility of the murder methods but the burial method. It's claimed that somewhere around 750,000 were gassed and buried before Himmler allegedly gave the order to exhume the bodies and cremate them. If we use Mattogno's more than generous estimate of eight bodies per cubic meter of grave space, then 93,750 cubic meters of burial space will be required. Additional excavation will be needed to provide grave cover and covering the layers of bodies plus the excavated material will gain in volume by anywhere from 10% to 20%. Obviously, excavated material will total over 100,000 cubic meters.

The clamshell equipped M&H dragline had about a 35 foot boom as can be seen in the ARC photos and could build a single cone stockpile about 16 feet or 5 meters tall. That's confirmed by the ARC photos. The angle of repose for wet sand is 45 degrees so there would be about 25 cubic meters of excavated material per meter of single cone stockpile. All of the models of Treblinka show the excavated material from the graves in single cone stockpiles. However, that requires a stockpile at least 4 kilometers long. Some of the excavated material would be used in the graves and for covering the graves but that is negligible. At a minimum there would be 3.5 kilometers of stockpiled material plus the surface area of the graves. How was that supposed to fit inside the extermination area/camp 2 of Treblinka?

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Re: Challenge to supporters of the "transit camp" theory

Postby Atigun » 2 months 4 hours ago (Thu Jul 20, 2017 4:46 pm)

I should add that a stockpile 10 meters wide at the base and 3,500 meters long is 35,000 square meters. That converts to 8.7 (8.65) acres plus the surface area of the graves. I don't recall the extermination area being even that large.

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Re: Challenge to supporters of the "transit camp" theory

Postby Atigun » 1 month 4 weeks ago (Fri Jul 21, 2017 8:06 pm)

For our guests, it should be noted that the "extermination area" of Treblinka was about 5 hectares or ~10 acres. No exterminationist has ever been able to explain how the ~750,000 Jews were buried in that small area given the constraints of the type of equipment that was supposedly used. The extermination area included both the old and the new gas chambers, the magic Jew cremation grill, the prisoner barracks and the lazarett. Those are not the claims of the revisionists but is what is said by the true believers. The question becomes, are you gullible enough to believe such nonsense?

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Re: Challenge to supporters of the "transit camp" theory

Postby roberto » 1 month 3 weeks ago (Sun Jul 23, 2017 1:52 pm)

Atigun wrote:For our guests, it should be noted that the "extermination area" of Treblinka was about 5 hectares or ~10 acres. No exterminationist has ever been able to explain how the ~750,000 Jews were buried in that small area given the constraints of the type of equipment that was supposedly used.


The number buried in the extermination area was not necessarily 750,000, as "only" 713,555 were deported to Treblinka until the end of 1942 (i.e. the period when burial as opposed to cremation was the camp's main body disposal method), according to the Höfle Telegram. Moreover many of these deportees died en route and were buried outside the extermination area. The same applies to those who were those shot at the "Lazarett".

The number of people buried in the extermination sector that I calculated considering the above, assuming that the 713,555 mentioned by Höfle do not include about 8,000 deportees from Theresienstadt in 1942, and making some allowance for the remote possibility, claimed by Mattogno, that arrivals in early 1943 were buried instead of being directly cremated, is 726,441.

The size of the extermination area (about 40,500 m² or 41,390 m² according to calculations by, respectively, Sergey Romanov and Peter Laponder; Yitzhak Arad estimated about 50,000 m² as you do) was more than sufficient to accomodate the required area of mass graves. Considering Alex Bay's corpse density calculation/estimate in his "Reconstruction of Treblinka", i.e. 8,502 cubic meters for 100,000 corpses, I calculated that the burial of 726,441 corpses in Treblinka’s extermination sector would have required a volume of ca. 61,762 mᶟ and an area of ca. 9.081 m². This would correspond to 21.9 % - 22.4 % of the extermination sector’s total area and little more than half of the 1.8 ha area called the "area of cremation" in a map pertaining to postwar Polish crime site investigations.

That's without taking into account the probable "recovery" of mass grave space as the corpses released most of their liquid (water makes up something like 60 % of a human body's volume) as leachate into the soil and their volume shrank according, leading to a "sinking" of the mass grave and making it possible to add further corpses.

So there was no bottleneck as concerns the area and volume available for burying corpses.

Are the available excavators (two, possibly three) supposed to have been unable to make sufficiently large mass graves with the period in question, 22 July to 31 December 1942?

The Menck excavators used at Treblinka had a clamshell load of 0.75 to 0.8 cubic meters. A Menck M60 machine shown in a Youtube video takes about 45 seconds for one clamshell movement from the truck to the soil it excavates and back to the truck dropping the soil. Let's make that 60 seconds for good measure. The clamshell holds 0.75 cubic meters of soil according to information below the video, and the construction pit from which the excavator is extracting the soil is 15 meters deep, which is much deeper than the Treblinka pits were assumed to be according to postwar excavations (which found human remains to a depth of 7.5 meters), and deeper than even the highest estimates by Treblinka eyewitnesses IIRC.

Assuming a workday of only 12 hours, the amount excavated would be 540 cubic meters per day. At that rate a single excavator could have dug 61,762 mᶟ of mass grave space within 114 days, more than sufficient time especially if one assumes that digging the pits started before the camp started operating on 22 July 1942. With two excavators on the job excavation time would have been just 57 days.

So there was no bottleneck here either.

You have argued that the amount of removed soil would be a problem. I have calculated that, assuming piles of excavated soil 6 meters high (Youtube videos showing Menck excavators and Kurt Franz's photos taken at Treblinka suggest that a sand-pile height of 6 meters was possible) and 10 meters wide, the length of the piles would be less than 1,900 meters, and the area covered by these piles would be about 19,000 square meters, i.e. less than half the extermination sector's area.

Another way of calculating the area covered by excavated soil, assuming a dilation factor of 1.25, would be the following:
(i) Volume of excavated soil: 61,762 mᶟ * 1.25 = 77,202.50 mᶟ
(ii) Height of excavated soil: 6 m
(iii) Area covered by excavated soil: 77,202.50 ÷ 6 = 12,867.08 m²

But let's assume the higher area (19,000 m²), and that a significant part of the excavated sand would have to be moved elsewhere.

Would this be a problem?

If excavators could be brought into the extermination sector then so could trucks, and trucks could remove much of the excavated soil to the nearby Treblinka gravel quarry. Some of the excavated soil may have been shipped from there by train together with gravel from the quarry.

So there's no bottleneck here either.

Atigun wrote:The extermination area included both the old and the new gas chambers, the magic Jew cremation grill, the prisoner barracks and the lazarett. Those are not the claims of the revisionists but is what is said by the true believers. The question becomes, are you gullible enough to believe such nonsense?


The "Lazarett", as mentioned before, was outside the extermination sector.

The mass graves occupied just about 22 % of that sector’s area, see above.

The cremation grates (which were no more "magic" than the grate or grates on which air raid victims were burned after the Dresden bombing on 13-15 February 1945, and very similar in construction) would have occupied an area of just 360 m², assuming that there were six of them and each had an area of about 60 m² (30 meters long, two meters wide).

This means that, even assuming that 19,000 square meters of soil were left inside the extermination sector (which need not have been the case, see above), and that the extermination sector's area was only about 40,500 m², there would still be about 12,000 square meters left for the gas chamber building(s), the prisoner barracks, and movement inside the area.

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Re: Challenge to supporters of the "transit camp" theory

Postby Hannover » 1 month 3 weeks ago (Sun Jul 23, 2017 6:38 pm)

While posting illogical 'garbage in, garbage out' text which assumes what cannot be proven, we see a plethora of false, useless, strawman arguments by Roberto Muehlenkamp.

Roberto said:
The Menck excavators used at Treblinka had a clamshell load of 0.75 to 0.8 cubic meters...."
Seriously?

The OP in this thread deals with Roberto's 'corpse excavators' in action:
'The Industry's Roberto Muehlenkamp's 'corpse hauling Treblinka excavator' / Seriously?'
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=11262

In that post, according to "Treblinka eyewitness" Samuel Willenberg, this the 'holocaust' in motion:
Image
"Eyewitness" Willenberg's caption:
crane lifting corpses destined for cremation
:lol:

Roberto also said:
... The mass graves occupied just about 22 % of that sector’s area, see above. ...
And those alleged mass graves are claimed to be in existence today, but Roberto, nor anyone else can actually show us any excavations and the alleged massive remains of an alleged 700,000 - 900,000 Jews.
The Los Angeles Coliseum holds a mere 90,000 people,

Image

yet Roberto cannot show us the claimed 700,000, - 900,000 remains of Jews that are said to be still buried at Treblinka.
That's 8 - 10 times the capacity of the L.A. Coliseum. :lol:

also recommended:
desperately claimed photos of 'mass graves' at Treblinka'
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=10714

Roberto then says:
The cremation grates (which were no more "magic" than the grate or grates on which air raid victims were burned after the Dresden bombing on 13-15 February 1945, and very similar in construction) would have occupied an area of just 360 m², assuming that there were six of them and each had an area of about 60 m² (30 meters long, two meters wide).
Another false argument.
Dresden pyres were for sanitation purposes, not the laughably alleged & impossible 'obliteration' (aka: magically disappear) purposes claimed by Zionists.
much more:
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=7916
excerpt:
Concerning the Dresden pyres, (a) the photos show I-beams, not rails, (b) the total length of the facility was apparently 20 feet, while the most common description of Treblinka has three spans of 10 meters each, and the Sobibor cremation facility is described as having a single span, (c) if you look at the pictures carefully, (e.g this one)
Image
you'll notice that the beams in the Dresden pyres are regularly supported by beams running orthogonal to the main beams. The length of each span is perhaps 1 meter. (d) the amount of fuel under the beams is minimal; apparently additional fuel was placed between layers of bodies. The degree of destruction which was attained is uncertain, as are the temperatures, but it's clear that the beams would have underwent nowhere near the degree of heating that the rails on the alleged Reinhardt pyres would have.

- Hannover

Why have supremacist Jews have been marketing the '6,000,000' lie since at least 1869?
http://balder.org/judea/New-York-Times- ... e-1869.php
https://6millionfairytale.wordpress.com ... -is-a-lie/
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Re: Challenge to supporters of the "transit camp" theory

Postby Atigun » 1 month 3 weeks ago (Sun Jul 23, 2017 10:30 pm)

roberto wrote:
Atigun wrote:For our guests, it should be noted that the "extermination area" of Treblinka was about 5 hectares or ~10 acres. No exterminationist has ever been able to explain how the ~750,000 Jews were buried in that small area given the constraints of the type of equipment that was supposedly used.


The number buried in the extermination area was not necessarily 750,000, as "only" 713,555 were deported to Treblinka until the end of 1942 (i.e. the period when burial as opposed to cremation was the camp's main body disposal method), according to the Höfle Telegram. Moreover many of these deportees died en route and were buried outside the extermination area. The same applies to those who were those shot at the "Lazarett".

The number of people buried in the extermination sector that I calculated considering the above, assuming that the 713,555 mentioned by Höfle do not include about 8,000 deportees from Theresienstadt in 1942, and making some allowance for the remote possibility, claimed by Mattogno, that arrivals in early 1943 were buried instead of being directly cremated, is 726,441.

The size of the extermination area (about 40,500 m² or 41,390 m² according to calculations by, respectively, Sergey Romanov and Peter Laponder; Yitzhak Arad estimated about 50,000 m² as you do) was more than sufficient to accomodate the required area of mass graves. Considering Alex Bay's corpse density calculation/estimate in his "Reconstruction of Treblinka", i.e. 8,502 cubic meters for 100,000 corpses, I calculated that the burial of 726,441 corpses in Treblinka’s extermination sector would have required a volume of ca. 61,762 mᶟ and an area of ca. 9.081 m². This would correspond to 21.9 % - 22.4 % of the extermination sector’s total area and little more than half of the 1.8 ha area called the "area of cremation" in a map pertaining to postwar Polish crime site investigations.


Roberto goes for his usual wall of text. I'll break up my answers into more manageable chunks. At any rate, let's start with, although Himmler didn't allegedly give the order to begin exhuming and cremating the cadavers until early March, 1943, the Germans began exhuming cadavers and cremating them on the magic Jew barbeque on January 1, 1943. Are you trying for Hilberg's orders given by psychic powers? The Germans at Treblinka had the power of precognition? Let's just stick with the more "reasonable" claim that ~750,000 were gassed and buried before the order was given to exhume and cremate the cadavers.

Then we have Bay's "Reconstruction of Treblina," where 8,502 cubic meters was sufficient to bury 100,000 cadavers. That's 11.76 bodies per cubic meter. Gee, and I thought that Mattogno's 8 bodies per cubic meter was generous. No sale on your 11.76 cadavers per cubic meter, Roberto. At Katyn, the surface of the graves was about 500 square meters that were about 2 meters deep for ~1,000 cubic meters. That was for ~4,500 cadavers or, after grave covering, a maximum of about 5 bodies per cubic meter. Granted that only adult males were buried at Katyn, the notion that over twice as many men, women and children could be buried in one cubic meter at Treblinka is pure horse frocky. So far, Roberto is 0 for 2.

roberto wrote:That's without taking into account the probable "recovery" of mass grave space as the corpses released most of their liquid (water makes up something like 60 % of a human body's volume) as leachate into the soil and their volume shrank according, leading to a "sinking" of the mass grave and making it possible to add further corpses.

So there was no bottleneck as concerns the area and volume available for burying corpses.


So, Roberto, how many graves were there? Rosenberg seems to have the least ridiculous dimensions for the mass graves. That's 6X15X120 meters or 10,800 cubic meters if the graves were perfect rectangular prisms. If we leave .5 meter for grave covering we're left with 9,900 cubic meters of usable grave space. So, for 750,000 cadavers at a more reasonable 8 cadavers per cubic meter, 93.750 cubic meters of grave space will be needed. Then we have the grave covering, the soil between the layers of cadavers and the gain (10%-20%) for excavating compacted material for a total of about 100,000+ cubic meters of ex (excavated material).

roberto wrote:Are the available excavators (two, possibly three) supposed to have been unable to make sufficiently large mass graves with the period in question, 22 July to 31 December 1942?

The Menck excavators used at Treblinka had a clamshell load of 0.75 to 0.8 cubic meters. A Menck M60 machine shown in a Youtube video takes about 45 seconds for one clamshell movement from the truck to the soil it excavates and back to the truck dropping the soil. Let's make that 60 seconds for good measure. The clamshell holds 0.75 cubic meters of soil according to information below the video, and the construction pit from which the excavator is extracting the soil is 15 meters deep, which is much deeper than the Treblinka pits were assumed to be according to postwar excavations (which found human remains to a depth of 7.5 meters), and deeper than even the highest estimates by Treblinka eyewitnesses IIRC.

Assuming a workday of only 12 hours, the amount excavated would be 540 cubic meters per day. At that rate a single excavator could have dug 61,762 mᶟ of mass grave space within 114 days, more than sufficient time especially if one assumes that digging the pits started before the camp started operating on 22 July 1942. With two excavators on the job excavation time would have been just 57 days.

So there was no bottleneck here either.


Once again, Roberto gets it arse to front. The ARC photos show only two draglines at Treblinka I, the M&H model Mb and the model Ma. The Ma is a much smaller machine. The M&H M60 from the video I posted is working in about a 10 meter deep excavation at the Munich underpass. The actual underpass was deeper than 10 meters but the dragline was working about 10 meters deep. Secondly, the dragline is dumping into a semi end dump. It's not building a stockpile. Nobody mentions any trucks, wagons or other types of conveyances to haul away the ex and all of the models of Treblinka show a single cone stockpile of ex around the graves. The problem with that is the limitation of the M&H Mb dragline. It has about a 35 foot boom and the angle of repose for wet sand is 45 degrees. The earth at Treblinka II is described as sandy and looks damp where it's excavated so 45 degrees is an appropriate angle of repose for that material. With the clamshell attachment, that gives a maximum height for the stockpile of about 5 meters. That's confirmed by the ARC photos. Five meters tall and 10 meters wide at the base gives about 25 cubic meters of ex for meter of stockpile.

For 100,000+ cubic meters of ex, that yields a stockpile some 4 kilometers long and approximately 40,000 square meters of space. No, Roberto, there wasn't any "bottleneck," it is a demonstrable impossibility. Then we have the necessity for the M&H dragline to carry the ex to the stockpile. I'll post a video showing how those old draglines traveled, Roberto. Your claim that the M&H could excavate and stockpile 540 cubic meters a day is a laughable fantasy. The same goes for your fantasy of the burial of 11+ cadavers per cubic meter of grave space.

roberto wrote:You have argued that the amount of removed soil would be a problem. I have calculated that, assuming piles of excavated soil 6 meters high (Youtube videos showing Menck excavators and Kurt Franz's photos taken at Treblinka suggest that a sand-pile height of 6 meters was possible) and 10 meters wide, the length of the piles would be less than 1,900 meters, and the area covered by these piles would be about 19,000 square meters, i.e. less than half the extermination sector's area.

Another way of calculating the area covered by excavated soil, assuming a dilation factor of 1.25, would be the following:
(i) Volume of excavated soil: 61,762 mᶟ * 1.25 = 77,202.50 mᶟ
(ii) Height of excavated soil: 6 m
(iii) Area covered by excavated soil: 77,202.50 ÷ 6 = 12,867.08 m²

But let's assume the higher area (19,000 m²), and that a significant part of the excavated sand would have to be moved elsewhere.

Would this be a problem


Yes, there is a problem with the 6 meter high stockpile. Six meters is 19.7 (19.69) feet. The height of the M&H's house is 12 feet meaning that the stockpile in the ARC photos would have to be almost 8 feet taller than the dragline. Neither does the math work for a 6 meter ~20 feet stockpile. Go to a trig site for solving right triangles and plug in the numbers and see what you get. BTW, if your stockpile is 6 meters tall and 10 meters wide at the base, your angle of repose must be greater than 45 degrees. Even at 6 meters tall, a 10 meter wide stockpile will only be 30 cubic meters per meter of stockpile so your 77,202.50 is divided by 30 or 2.6 km long or 26,000 square meters. That's impossible from the get go since the maximum angle of repose for any aggregate is 45 degrees.

roberto wrote:If excavators could be brought into the extermination sector then so could trucks, and trucks could remove much of the excavated soil to the nearby Treblinka gravel quarry. Some of the excavated soil may have been shipped from there by train together with gravel from the quarry.

So there's no bottleneck here either.[/unquote]

Uh-huh, and if pigs had wings they could fly. Take your imaginary, "Well, it COULDA' happened," and shove it up into a pile and burn it, Roberto. The story is already enough of a fantasy without you adding to it.

Atigun wrote:The extermination area included both the old and the new gas chambers, the magic Jew cremation grill, the prisoner barracks and the lazarett. Those are not the claims of the revisionists but is what is said by the true believers. The question becomes, are you gullible enough to believe such nonsense?

The "Lazarett", as mentioned before, was outside the extermination sector.

The mass graves occupied just about 22 % of that sector’s area, see above.


Really? Czarny testified at a deportation hearing that the blood from the bodies was what was used to cremate the cadavers. That was done in the reception area? Another person, a German (Ukrainian?) claimed that customers were lined up on a bench alongside the grave and then shot with a machine gun. I suppose that it depends on which lying ding-a-ling you listen to first......or last.

roberto wrote:The cremation grates (which were no more "magic" than the grate or grates on which air raid victims were burned after the Dresden bombing on 13-15 February 1945, and very similar in construction) would have occupied an area of just 360 m², assuming that there were six of them and each had an area of about 60 m² (30 meters long, two meters wide).

This means that, even assuming that 19,000 square meters of soil were left inside the extermination sector (which need not have been the case, see above), and that the extermination sector's area was only about 40,500 m², there would still be about 12,000 square meters left for the gas chamber building(s), the prisoner barracks, and movement inside the area.


Horse frocky. The Dresden victims were dressed in winter clothing, piled on I-beams and supposedly soaked with gasoline before being set on fire. The photos and the claims are equally dubious but in any case, that has nothing to do with naked bodies/pieces and parts of bodies being set on fire with little dry twigs, brush or enough wood to build some little campfires. You're going to have to come up with a better lie than that, Roberto. Neither do your spurious calculations fly, either.

PS. Here's the video of an old dragline on the move. This is a 1951 Bucyrus Erie model 10b which is a bit smaller than the M&H Mb but they travel at about the same speed. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xRBavMWyFh0 Yep, that M&H could dig a bucket full, lock things up and clank off to the stockpile. They would have finished those giant mass graves by the 1950s? 60s? Actually, a grave that was 8 meters wide and 3 meters deep would have produced 24 cubic meters of ex per meter of grave so the M&H could have dug and stockpiled such a grave. The problem being that both the graves and the stockpiles would both have had to have been about 4 km long. Nah, ain't gonna' fit in 10 acres.

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Re: Challenge to supporters of the "transit camp" theory

Postby CWhite » 1 month 3 weeks ago (Mon Jul 24, 2017 2:02 pm)

Questions of mine to Roberto from this thread alone that Roberto has dodged at least once:

RM: So a total of 1,419,467 persons are supposed to have been transited to the "Russian East" in this period through these camps alone, instead of being killed at these camps as all known evidence shows them to have been.

CW: Roberto: How many graves were those "1,419,467 persons" buried in?


So tell us then Roberto:

1 - Has it ever been claimed / alleged / insinuated in orthodox historiography and/or the media that; legitimate archaeologists / forensic investigators have located / proven the existence of numerous discernable / measurable extant mass graves within the boundaries of each of the Belzec, Chelmno, Sobibor and Treblinka II camps - Yes. - or - No. - ??
 
2 - Is it known - with the utmost certainty - that; legitimate archaeologists / forensic investigators have actually located / proven the existence of numerous discernable / measurable extant mass graves within the boundaries of each of the Belzec, Chelmno, Sobibor and Treblinka II camps - Yes. - or - No. - ??
 
3 - Is it reasonable to doubt that; legitimate archaeologists / forensic investigators have located / proven the existence of numerous discernable / measurable extant mass graves within the boundaries of each of the Belzec, Chelmno, Sobibor and Treblinka II camps - Yes. - or - No. - ??
 
4 - Has it ever been proven - with the same standard of proof applied in U.S. criminal courts - that; legitimate archaeologists / forensic investigators have actually located / proven the existence of numerous discernable / measurable extant mass graves within the boundaries of each of the Belzec, Chelmno, Sobibor and Treblinka II camps - Yes. - or - No. - ??
 
5 - If your answer to the last question is - Yes. - then; if you wanted to, could you post said proof on an internet website - Yes. - or - No. - ??


Roberto, do you deny ignoring / dodging this question:

SFinesilver

RM:

This challenge was born out of an amenable conversation between my old friend Greg Gerdes and me on the threads

$1,000.00 REWARD FOR THE NAME OF JUST ONE GASSED JEW

...

http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot . ... onist.html



Did you receive a $1,000.00 reward roberto - Yes. - or - No. - ??


On that "other forum" at least 8 times - Yes. - or - No. - ??


Well then Roberto, please tell us:

#43 - The MAXIMUM number of the 33 claimed / alleged / insinuated - discernable / measurable extant graves of Belzec identified by The N.A.F.H. that you can currently prove - with the same standard of proof applied in U.S. criminal courts - that have actually been located / proven to exist in which legitimate archaeologists / forensic investigators have, via bona fide, verifiably honest and conclusively documented methodology - literally unearthed scientifically verified human remains; is no less than __?__.

And Roberto's single numeric answer is: ?

#44 - The MAXIMUM number of the 33 claimed / alleged / insinuated - discernable / measurable extant graves of Belzec identified by The N.A.F.H. that you can currently prove - with the same standard of proof applied in U.S. criminal courts - that have actually been located / proven to exist in which legitimate archaeologists / forensic investigators have, via bona fide, verifiably honest and conclusively documented methodology - literally unearthed the remains of at least 19 people; is no less than __?__.

And Roberto's single numeric answer is: ?

#45 - The MAXIMUM number of the 15 claimed / alleged / insinuated - discernable / measurable extant graves of Chelmno identified by The N.A.F.H. that you can currently prove - with the same standard of proof applied in U.S. criminal courts - that have actually been located / proven to exist in which legitimate archaeologists / forensic investigators have, via bona fide, verifiably honest and conclusively documented methodology - literally unearthed scientifically verified human remains; is no less than __?__.

And Roberto's single numeric answer is: ?

#46 - The MAXIMUM number of the 15 claimed / alleged / insinuated - discernable / measurable extant graves of Chelmno identified by The N.A.F.H. that you can currently prove - with the same standard of proof applied in U.S. criminal courts - that have actually been located / proven to exist in which legitimate archaeologists / forensic investigators have, via bona fide, verifiably honest and conclusively documented methodology - literally unearthed the remains of at least 19 people; is no less than __?__.

And Roberto's single numeric answer is: ?

#47 - The MAXIMUM number of the 16 claimed / alleged / insinuated - discernable / measurable extant graves of Sobibor identified by The N.A.F.H. that you can currently prove - with the same standard of proof applied in U.S. criminal courts - that have actually been located / proven to exist in which legitimate archaeologists / forensic investigators have, via bona fide, verifiably honest and conclusively documented methodology - literally unearthed scientifically verified human remains; is no less than __?__.

And Roberto's single numeric answer is: ?

#48 - The MAXIMUM number of the 16 claimed / alleged / insinuated - discernable / measurable extant graves of Sobibor identified by The N.A.F.H. that you can currently prove - with the same standard of proof applied in U.S. criminal courts - that have actually been located / proven to exist in which legitimate archaeologists / forensic investigators have, via bona fide, verifiably honest and conclusively documented methodology - literally unearthed the remains of at least 19 people; is no less than __?__.

And Roberto's single numeric answer is: ?

#49 - The MAXIMUM number of the 11 claimed / alleged / insinuated - discernable / measurable extant graves of Treblinka II identified by The N.A.F.H. that you can currently prove - with the same standard of proof applied in U.S. criminal courts - that have actually been located / proven to exist in which legitimate archaeologists / forensic investigators have, via bona fide, verifiably honest and conclusively documented methodology - literally unearthed scientifically verified human remains; is no less than __?__.

And Roberto's single numeric answer is: ?

#50 - The MAXIMUM number of the 11 claimed / alleged / insinuated - discernable / measurable extant graves of Treblinka II identified by The N.A.F.H. that you can currently prove - with the same standard of proof applied in U.S. criminal courts - that have actually been located / proven to exist in which legitimate archaeologists / forensic investigators have, via bona fide, verifiably honest and conclusively documented methodology - literally unearthed the remains of at least 19 people; is no less than __?__.

And Roberto's single numeric answer is: ?


Roberto:

The challenge pertains specifically to the - 1,419,467 - jews that I can prove actually set foot in Belzec, Chelmno, Sobibor or Treblinka II, and that I can prove were killed and buried in the camps to which they were deported.



Well then Roberto, if that statement is true, then:

Is it known - with the utmost certainty - that; legitimate archaeologists / forensic investigators have actually located / proven the existence of numerous discernable / measurable extant mass graves within the boundaries of each of the Belzec, Chelmno, Sobibor and Treblinka II camps - Yes. - or - No. - ??

If your answer is - Yes. - then;

Would it be possible to prove - with the utmost certainty - just - 1 / 1,000 of 1% - of your allegation that - 1,419,467 - jews actually set foot in the Belzec, Chelmno, Sobibor and Treblinka II camps; by proving the contents of those numerous discernable / measurable extant mass graves that legitimate archaeologists / forensic investigators have actually located / proven the existence of - Yes. - or - No. - ??

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CWhite
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Re: Challenge to supporters of the "transit camp" theory

Postby CWhite » 1 month 3 weeks ago (Mon Jul 24, 2017 2:21 pm)

Roberto:

The "Lazarett", as mentioned before, was outside the extermination sector.

Roberto, could you please point out to us which yellow area in the map below has been proven to be the "Lazarett"

Image


Roberto:

The mass graves occupied just about 22 % of that sector’s area, see above.

Roberto, how many total discernable / measurable extant mass graves within the boundaries of the Treblinka II camp have actually been proven - beyond reasonable doubt - by legitimate archaeologists / forensic investigators - to actually exist?


Roberto:

The number of people buried in the extermination sector that I calculated considering the above, assuming that the 713,555 mentioned by Höfle do not include about 8,000 deportees from Theresienstadt in 1942, and making some allowance for the remote possibility, claimed by Mattogno, that arrivals in early 1943 were buried instead of being directly cremated, is 726,441.

Robeto, is there enough physical evidence within the boundary of the Treblinka II camp to substantiate just 1 / 1000 of 1 % your allegations - Yes. - or - No. - ??

(There either is or there isn't. If there is, then the answer would be - Yes. If there isn't, then the answer would be - No.)

Roberto's - Yes. -or - No. - answer: ??

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Re: Challenge to supporters of the "transit camp" theory

Postby CWhite » 1 month 3 weeks ago (Mon Jul 24, 2017 4:35 pm)

Roberto just can't seem to get his lies straight.

First he alleged that:

The challenge pertains specifically to the - 1,419,467 - jews that I can prove actually set foot in Belzec, Chelmno, Sobibor or Treblinka II, and that I can prove were killed and buried in the camps to which they were deported.


Then he made this statement on "that other site:"


The number of Jews I can prove beyond a reasonable doubt to have actually set foot in and been killed and buried in the camps mentioned below is the following:

Belzec - 434,508

Chelmno - 145,301

Sobibor - 101,370

Treblinka II - 713,555

Total = 1,394,734


Which is a reduction of: 24,733.

As far at Treblinka II goes, first he alleged "The number of Jews I can prove beyond a reasonable doubt to have actually set foot in and been killed and buried in Treblinka II is - 713,555. But now he's alleging - 726,441.

Which is an addition of: 12,886.

So Roberto, why don't you update us on what TODAYS figures are by answering this simple quiz:

On this day of - 7 / 24 / 17 - the number of Jews that I can prove beyond a reasonable doubt to have actually set foot in and been killed and buried in the camps mentioned below is the following:

Belzec - ?

Chelmno - ?

Sobibor - ?

Treblinka II - ?

Total - ?


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