Lol: The story of another Auschwitz Sonderkommando the Nazis forgot to kill / 'note found in thermos'

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Hannover
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Re: Lol: The story of another Auschwitz Sonderkommando the Nazis forgot to kill / 'note found in thermos'

Postby Hannover » 1 week 1 day ago (Wed Dec 06, 2017 1:26 am)

Callahan wrote:Considering that so much of the Holocaust narrative relies on the testimony of these 'Sonderkommando', for the tall tales and alleged job duties of whom neither physical nor documentary evidence supports, has anyone considered that these guys might have actually been plotting revenge against their captors as early as their time interned at the camps? They were surely aware of the propaganda themes and rumors already being put out by underground resistance movements and Allied governments, and I recall seeing statements from at least some of these individuals that expressed a clear will for revenge.

Put yourself in their shoes; if you're coming from a group that is familiar with the effects of propaganda and you are in a position to contribute to huge lies that were already proving effective and could later be used to bury your enemies, what would you do? Would it be inconceivable that you and your buddies would start writing down pieces of this narrative to later be discovered? With this in mind, I don't think discoveries such as what we find here should be so surprising.

That doesn't make sense.
Why would an inmate bury information that can be easily shown to be wrong? ... see my earlier post.
Why would an inmate write a note whose contents is refuted by the simple fact that he was not killed?
Why wouldn't an inmate just simply wait to say whatever he wanted to whomever after the war?

The 'buried note' drama is someone else who wasn't too smart trying to be creative in attempting to reinforce the impossible nonsense about Auschwitz. It does not withstand rational scrutiny.

- Hannover

- The massive numbers of so called "survivor$" are living testimony to the fraudulence of the impossible '6M Jews, 5M others, & gas chambers'.

- The mere fact that we have so many "survivors" when it's claimed that 'the Germans tried to kill every Jew they could get their hands on' blows away the impossible '6M Jews, 5M others, & gas chambers'.

- If Jews are so sure that millions of Jews were murdered, then why do they ask Revisionists such dumb questions like "so then, what happened to them?"

- Jews tell us that murdered Jews went to huge mass graves that they know the locations of.
So why don't they excavate the alleged enormous 'mass graves', show the world the millions of Jew corpses, and prove their point?


If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Re: Lol: The story of another Auschwitz Sonderkommando the Nazis forgot to kill / 'note found in thermos'

Postby Reviso » 1 week 1 day ago (Wed Dec 06, 2017 5:26 am)

EtienneSC wrote:One point that seems to have been overlooked is that Marcel Nadjari wrote his memoirs (in Greek) in 1947 and they were later published. See here:
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=IpG ... tz&f=false


Interesting. Look at Brigit Katz, "Reconstructed Auschwitz Letter Reveals Horrors Endured by Forced Laborer", on Smithsonian.com, 11 october 2017, here :
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-ne ... 180965238/

"Nadjari, a Greek Jewish prisoner, who was given the grisly task of removing dead bodies from Auschwitz’s gas chambers, buried his letter in a forest near the camp before it was liberated in 1945. The document was discovered in 1980 (...). In 1947, Nadjari published a memoir about his Holocaust experience. But he does not appear to have told anyone about the letter that he wrote and carefully interred at Auschwitz (...)."

OK : he didn't tell anyone about the interred letter because he never interred a letter. In 1980, he was dead, so it was possible to safely ascribe an allegedly unearthed letter to him.
R.

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Re: Lol: The story of another Auschwitz Sonderkommando the Nazis forgot to kill / 'note found in thermos'

Postby Reviso » 1 week 1 day ago (Wed Dec 06, 2017 10:33 am)

Another interesting thing with these manuscripts is that one of them, a letter of a Chaim Herman (or Haim Herman) contains an anachronism, according to Hans Metzner, a contributor to Holocaust Controversies :

In February 1945, the first Sonderkommando manuscript was found by Andrzej Zaorski at the Auschwitz-Birkenau site. According to this letter (addressed to the man's wife in French), the author was assigned to the "infamous 'Sonderkommando'" in Auschwitz as a "corpse carrier" after his arrival on 4 March 1943, whereas most of the people of his Jewish transport from France were "sent to the gas and then in the ovens" (Inmitten, p. 255 ff., note the anachronism that the crematoria in Birkenau were not yet operating by 4 March 1943). The author has been identified as Chaim Herman. The source was published in 1971 (in Zeszyty Oswiecimskie, special issue 2).

R.

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Re: Lol: The story of another Auschwitz Sonderkommando the Nazis forgot to kill / 'note found in thermos'

Postby Callahan » 1 week 16 hours ago (Thu Dec 07, 2017 3:14 am)

Hannover wrote:
Callahan wrote:Considering that so much of the Holocaust narrative relies on the testimony of these 'Sonderkommando', for the tall tales and alleged job duties of whom neither physical nor documentary evidence supports, has anyone considered that these guys might have actually been plotting revenge against their captors as early as their time interned at the camps? They were surely aware of the propaganda themes and rumors already being put out by underground resistance movements and Allied governments, and I recall seeing statements from at least some of these individuals that expressed a clear will for revenge.

Put yourself in their shoes; if you're coming from a group that is familiar with the effects of propaganda and you are in a position to contribute to huge lies that were already proving effective and could later be used to bury your enemies, what would you do? Would it be inconceivable that you and your buddies would start writing down pieces of this narrative to later be discovered? With this in mind, I don't think discoveries such as what we find here should be so surprising.

That doesn't make sense.
Why would an inmate bury information that can be easily shown to be wrong? ... see my earlier post.

They would bury the information that could ultimately be shown to be wrong for the same reason so many others gave testimony that could easily be shown to be wrong... they did not expect their lies would be refuted with critical analysis and such in-depth consideration of the physical and documentary evidence.

Why would an inmate write a note whose contents is refuted by the simple fact that he was not killed?

From what I see in the article, he only alleges he expected himself to be killed; this is more drama for his story intended for media outlets to swallow up and publish--and another artifact to utilize symbolically, should he have a chance to discuss it following the war. Nadjari didn't even arrive at Auschwitz until mid-1944. The camp was liberated at the beginning of 1945. He and other 'Sonderkommandos' had plenty of time to realize the Germans were losing the war and that the camp was going to be liberated. This was a perfect opportunity to plant artifacts all over the camp to be discovered and later utilized in the growing and effective propaganda campaign, before they headed out west with the Germans.

I think it is a misconception that the 'Sonderkommando survivors' only began plotting their contributions to the absurd narrative after the war; I find it very plausible that they were doing so as early as in their final months at the camp. I don't think it is coincidence that they ended up as "key witnesses" either. I believe they had been counting on this.

One area of interest for me is in the multiple pairs of brothers who 'survived the Sonderkommando'--Morris and Shlomo Venezia, Shlomo and Abraham Dragon, and Dario and Yaakov Gabai. I find it suspicious that out of all the prisoners that could be selected for the 'Sonderkommando', these three pairs of brothers managed to be assigned to the same unit(s) and, out of supposedly around 2,000 total members of these units, they were all lucky enough to be among the remaining few dozen (allegedly) who escaped the Germans--the same Germans who had a strict policy of making sure none of them survived--and lived to tell the tale. I find it more plausible that these brothers simply spent a lot of time together in the camps and at some point got together and decided what fairytale they'd tell the world to supplement the rumor and propaganda that was already winning their war.

Why wouldn't an inmate just simply wait to say whatever he wanted to whomever after the war?

Why would they? They had an ability to plant evidence at the "scene of the crime", and had very good reason to believe this would be later used to support the show trials and lies told after the war.

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Re: Lol: The story of another Auschwitz Sonderkommando the Nazis forgot to kill / 'note found in thermos'

Postby borjastick » 1 week 16 hours ago (Thu Dec 07, 2017 3:33 am)

He claims he buried the canister just before the liberation of the camp. That suggests to me it was probably in the grey period between when the Germans had fled and the Russians fully took it over. If that is true then it was probably part of the Soviet campaign to orchestrate the story for the world.

In reality I don't believe for one moment that this message and thermos flask is real and was written at the time etc as claimed.
'Of the four million Jews under Nazi control in WW2, six million died and alas only five million survived.'

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Re: Lol: The story of another Auschwitz Sonderkommando the Nazis forgot to kill / 'note found in thermos'

Postby Hieldner » 4 days 13 hours ago (Sun Dec 10, 2017 6:08 am)

EtienneSC wrote:One point that seems to have been overlooked is that Marcel Nadjari wrote his memoirs (in Greek) in 1947 and they were later published.

We don’t really know who the author of the letter is, and I don’t know of any evidence that Nadjary wrote the memoirs himself which were published in “edited” form only in 1991 (20 years after his death, 11 after the publishing of “his” letter).

The source given in We Wept Without Tears :cry: is
Marsel Nadzari, Khroniko 1941–1945 [Chronicle 1941–1945], Salonika, 1991.
(Μαρσέλ Νατζαρή, Xρονικό 1941–1945). Matters of Testimony (https://books.google.com.ua/books?id=8q ... 4&lpg=PA24) provides i.a. the ostensibly correct Greek spelling of Nadjary’s name.
I didn’t have any luck finding the book on bookfinder.com or worldcat.org, but the author of this blog from Thessaloniki says, there are copies “at/in Ragia” for 1€, and the author of this blog says, there’s a new edition of the book planned at the end of 2017.
EtienneSC wrote:He is one of only four alleged Sonderkommandos to have published memoirs. No-one – revisionist or otherwise – seems yet to have investigated the relation of his prior account to the letter supposedly discovered in 1980.

It looks like it’s hard to obtain. Maybe Panagiotis Heliotis can help?
[Holocaust soap] odor, if captured and retained…would preserve the core of an individual soul…The undesirable smell of the extract spoke of the spectral Derridian trace, of the illusive core that continued to remind its consumers of their own bio-ontology

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Re: Lol: The story of another Auschwitz Sonderkommando the Nazis forgot to kill / 'note found in thermos'

Postby Reviso » 4 days 9 hours ago (Sun Dec 10, 2017 10:27 am)

Hieldner wrote:We don’t really know who the author of the letter is, and I don’t know of any evidence that Nadjary wrote the memoirs himself which were published in “edited” form only in 1991 (20 years after his death, 11 after the publishing of “his” letter).


It seems that he published his book ("memoir") in 1947 : "In 1947, Nadjari published a memoir about his Holocaust experience."
See here : Brigit Katz, "Reconstructed Auschwitz Letter Reveals Horrors Endured by Forced Laborer", smithsonian.com, October 11, 2017
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-ne ... 180965238/

What seems important to me is that "he does not appear to have told anyone about the letter that he wrote and carefully interred at Auschwitz" (same source). I think the reason is that he never interred a letter.
R.

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Re: Lol: The story of another Auschwitz Sonderkommando the Nazis forgot to kill / 'note found in thermos'

Postby EtienneSC » 4 days 6 hours ago (Sun Dec 10, 2017 12:45 pm)

Reviso wrote:
Hieldner wrote:It seems that he published his book ("memoir") in 1947 : "In 1947, Nadjari published a memoir about his Holocaust experience."
See here : Brigit Katz, "Reconstructed Auschwitz Letter Reveals Horrors Endured by Forced Laborer", smithsonian.com, October 11, 2017
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-ne ... 180965238/
R.

There is a conflict then, as Graif says the memoirs were written in 1947, but only published "many years later" (page 80). Perhaps Graif did not know of the alleged earlier edition, or perhaps Katz is not being accurate.

One important point not to miss is that Graif and others dismiss two such published diaries by Max Perkal and Donald Watt as "disputed and of problematic reliability" (page 82). Perkal is "historically inaccurate and unconvincing" and Watt's book Stoker is called "definitely an invention" and "based on falsifications and figments of the author's imagination." (page 82) So when we know there is a track record of deception, we are being reasonable to ask for evidence of authenticity.

No doubt our opponents would say that the fact that some are rejected indicates that there is scrutiny of sources. I then reply, yes, but what evidence is there of the quality of the scrutiny.

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Re: Lol: The story of another Auschwitz Sonderkommando the Nazis forgot to kill / 'note found in thermos'

Postby Hieldner » 4 days 6 hours ago (Sun Dec 10, 2017 1:24 pm)

Reviso wrote:It seems that he published his book ("memoir") in 1947 : "In 1947, Nadjari published a memoir about his Holocaust experience."
See here : Brigit Katz, "Reconstructed Auschwitz Letter Reveals Horrors Endured by Forced Laborer", smithsonian.com, October 11, 2017
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-ne ... 180965238/

In her quote, Katz refers to We Wept Without Tears. :cry: The corresponding quote in this book is (p. 80):
Marcel Nadjari was born in Salonika. He wrote his memoirs in 1947 but the book was published in Greek many [44] years later.
So Katz misquotes the book she refers to. Of course, there’s no proof when the two manuscripts contained in Nadjary’s book were written, let alone by whom.

On p. 363 of WWWT there’s a short biography of Nadjary (note 16):
Marcel Nadjari was born on January 1, 1917, in Salonika. He attended the Alsheikh French high school. When he matured, he worked in his father’s shop, which sold animal feed. He was drafted in 1937 and fought against the Italians in 1940. In 1943, he fled to Athens and worked for a soap manufacturer. In October 1943, he left Athens and joined the Greek resistance. On December 30, 1943, he was arrested and taken to Averof Prison, where he spent the next month. Afterwards, he spent another two months at the Haidar detention camp and was then sent to Auschwitz. He survived the Holocaust, emigrated to the United States, and died of a heart attack in New York on July 31, 1971.

As a resistance fighter and animal feed salesman who didn’t even understand German, he had no conceivable “special skills” which could have convinced the Nazis to keep him alive, if they really were running a mass extermination program (German Wikipedia quotes this spurious page which declares him an electrician without further source). He would have been one of the first to be lured into a fake shower room, then gassed and made a lampshade out of (human skin lampshades, shrunken heads and human soap are real, Auschwitz soccer footage is fake, okay? :lol: :lol: :lol:)

This contradicts Nicholas Chare’s and Dominic Williams’ explanation in Matters of Testimony, p. 6, why there were Sonderkommando “survivors”:
After transports from Greece started to arrive, a large contingent of Greek Jews was drafted in April 1944, strong and fit but mostly with no understanding of German. They were often given the most arduous tasks. Marcel Nadjary was among them. While periodic selections and expansions did take place, these were not the four-monthly liquidations of legend. The skills acquired by experienced members of the SK were too valuable for that.27
In note 27 they complain about Germany’s first “professor” of “Holocaust Studies”, Sybille Steinbacher:
A number of historians, including Sybille Steinbacher, still repeat this myth. Sybille Steinbacher, Auschwitz: A History, trans. Shaun Whiteside (London: Penguin, 2005), 103. Gideon Greif lists seven selections in the history of the SK; in only one of these were they liquidated in their entirety. We Wept without Tears, 347, n. 34. The origin of the story has been attributed to Miklós Nyiszli – Nyiszli, Im Jenseits der Menschlichkeit: Ein Gerichtsmediziner in Auschwitz, trans. Angelika Bihari, ed. Andreas Kilian and Friedrich Herber (Berlin: Karl Dietz, 2005), 167, n. 39 – but it may also have been a rumour that circulated in the camp, perhaps inspired by the early history of the SK. Leon Cohen recalled being warned not to join as he would be eliminated after three or four months. Cohen, From Greece to Birkenau, 29. Rudolf Höss also claimed that he had been given instructions by Adolf Eichmann to regularly eliminate groups. Rudolf Höß, Kommandant in Auschwitz: Autobiographische Aufzeichnungen, ed. Martin Broszat (Munich: Deutsche Taschenbuch Verlag, 2013), 242. However, as Claude Lanzmann put it, they were actually ‘skilled workers’ (‘Facharbeiter’), and so it was to the camp administration’s advantage not to keep killing them. Transcript of interview with Filip Müller, 107 (PDF downloadable from <http://www.ushmm.org/online/film/display/detail.php?file_num=4745>).
[Holocaust soap] odor, if captured and retained…would preserve the core of an individual soul…The undesirable smell of the extract spoke of the spectral Derridian trace, of the illusive core that continued to remind its consumers of their own bio-ontology

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Re: Lol: The story of another Auschwitz Sonderkommando the Nazis forgot to kill / 'note found in thermos'

Postby Reviso » 4 days 5 hours ago (Sun Dec 10, 2017 2:06 pm)

Thanks EtienneSC and Hieldner. Yes, Katz is probably wrong.
R.


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