Proving/Disproving the Holocaust in less than half an hour

Read and post various viewpoints or search our large archives.

Moderator: Moderator

Forum rules
Be sure to read the Rules/guidelines before you post!
Alonso
Posts: 5
Joined: Thu Aug 08, 2019 12:48 pm

Proving/Disproving the Holocaust in less than half an hour

Postby Alonso » 2 months 6 days ago (Fri Aug 16, 2019 6:18 pm)

Hi, I'm new to the forum, this is my first post. I'm a Spanish guy who recently became interested in the Holocaust debate. Most of my life I have believed most mainstream narratives about most topics, including the Holocaust. Over the last years, however, I have become increasingly skeptical about mainstream narratives in general, and more recently about the Holocaust in particular. Over the last two years I have read a lot about both mainstream Holocaust narrative and revisionism. My current view is that it is almost certain that the Holocaust is a big lie.

Recently a friend of mine challenged my view. I offered him some very compelling evidence that suggests that the Holocaust is a hoax (confessions extracted under torture, prosecution of revisionists), but I couldn't offer anything that proves it conclusively. Part of the reason is that in reading about this very complex topic I got lost in the endless details. So in this first post I'd like to ask for conclusive evidence that my view is either right or wrong (both are welcome). I'm aware that there are very extensive works on this topic, but, if possible at all I would like something that can be checked in a short time, say less than half an hour (which, apart from being interesting for me, would also be very convenient for a discussion with my friend). What I'm looking for here is evidence that comes from neutral sources, can be easily verified, and (hopefully) is available to the public.

I hope this question hasn't been asked before, if it has just let me know.

Thank you in advance.

User avatar
Hannover
Valuable asset
Valuable asset
Posts: 9873
Joined: Sun Nov 24, 2002 7:53 pm

Re: Proving/Disproving the Holocaust in less than half an hour

Postby Hannover » 2 months 6 days ago (Fri Aug 16, 2019 11:47 pm)

Hello Alonso, welcome.

Indeed, there are many details all of which have been covered the CODOH main site, http://www.codoh.com and at this forum.

Cutting to the chase, the "holocaust' narrative is simply impossible. Scientifically, logically, and rationally; any way you look at it.
It's incredibly easy to demolish.

Below is where free speech on the truly impossible "holocaust" storyline is illegal, violators go to prison for Thought Crimes. In all western countries, persecution, harassment, violent attacks & threats are the order of the day against those who engage in free speech about the impossible claims within it.
Those are obvious admissions that the storyline doesn't stand up to scientific, logical, & rational scrutiny.
Image

Without a lot of details here are two elements which are sufficient to shoot down The Big Lie.

1. It's claimed that 6M Jews & 5M 'others' / 11M were killed mostly in 'gas chambers' which could not have done what is alleged.
Knowing the claims about how they supposedly worked is frankly, hilarious. Impossible.


For a thorough demolition of the alleged Auschwitz gas chambers & alleged Auschwitz homicidal gassing process see analysis at: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=11143&p=83723&hilit=model+asmarques#p83723

2. Then there are the alleged huge mass shootings with alleged total numbers which go into the millions.

The narrative claims that the alleged millions upon millions of human remains for all gassing and shootings exist in known locations. The problem for the liars is that those remains do not exist in spite of attempts to find them.

Imagine the size of the alleged human remains of 6M Jews & 5M others / 11,000,000. That's a bit more than the entire population of London, England. All we see are photos of a relatively few typhus victims and some other fake photos like this:
Image

quick examples:

Alleged location of Treblinka mass graves / remains of 900,000 Jews according to Treblinka officials, no alleged remains exist.
Image
The Los Angeles Coliseum holds ca 90,000. But, according to Jews, 900,000 Jews were allegedly murdered & buried at Treblinka, which would necessarily have left unimaginable amounts of human remains. In fact, Jews claim those remains still exist. That claim equals 10 times the Los Angeles Coliseum capacity shown here:
Image

Sobibor ‘monument’ supposedly over the remains of 250,000 Jew, actual remains of the alleged 250,000 cannot be shown.
Image

Alleged “ash pond” for an alleged 1.1M Jew remains at Auschwitz, however these alleged remains cannot be shown to exist.
Image

Look through this forum, it's veritable database of information which looks at all the preposterous claims and debunks them all.

And BTW, how can there be so many alleged "survivors when it's claimed 'the Germans tried to kill every Jew they could get their hands on'?

Cheers, Hannover

No alleged human remains of millions upon millions to be seen in allegedly known locations, no 'holocaust'.
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

User avatar
Lamprecht
Valuable asset
Valuable asset
Posts: 1194
Joined: Sun Nov 30, 2008 6:32 pm

Re: Proving/Disproving the Holocaust in less than half an hour

Postby Lamprecht » 2 months 6 days ago (Fri Aug 16, 2019 11:49 pm)

There are many introductory articles to share. If it will be a 1-on-1 discussion, you will want to have some major points to consider. Sometimes a good strategy is to ask "Why do YOU believe the Holocaust?" and then take apart those reasons piece-by-piece. Suggested reading:

Your Top Five Reasons For Not Believing the Holocaust
viewtopic.php?t=12407

Best and worst / least successful arguments for Holocaust revisionism
viewtopic.php?t=12430

(PDF)Holocaust Skepticism: 20 Questions and Answers about Holocaust Revisionism
http://holocausthandbooks.com/dl/Holoca ... ticism.pdf

The Controversy about the Extermination of the Jews
https://codoh.com/library/document/927/

On Holocaust Revisionism: Basic Arguments and Political Implications
https://codoh.com/library/document/1805/

Evidence we must expect to see given the gas chambers were used
viewtopic.php?t=12623


And if you want something in Spanish:

Una rápida introducción al estudio del revisionismo del Holocausto
https://codoh.com/library/document/784/

(PDF) Los crímenes de los "Buenos"
https://codoh.com/media/files/downloads ... imines.pdf
Last edited by Lamprecht on Sat Aug 17, 2019 12:04 am, edited 1 time in total.
"There is a principal which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments, and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance -- that principal is contempt prior to investigation."
-- Herbert Spencer

User avatar
Lamprecht
Valuable asset
Valuable asset
Posts: 1194
Joined: Sun Nov 30, 2008 6:32 pm

Re: Proving/Disproving the Holocaust in less than half an hour

Postby Lamprecht » 2 months 6 days ago (Fri Aug 16, 2019 11:57 pm)

As for:
What I'm looking for here is evidence that comes from neutral sources
What do you mean by "Neutral"? Please keep in mind in many countries it is illegal to question the "Holocaust" story and, in those where it is not illegal, you will most likely lose your job and have your reputation ruined for questioning it. Various examples can be given.

I recommend the following threads:

Responding to arguments claiming there are no "reliable/respected sources" denying the holocaust?
viewtopic.php?t=12190

Official list of Revisionist scholars persecuted / imprisoned for questioning the "Holocaust"
viewtopic.php?t=12642
"There is a principal which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments, and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance -- that principal is contempt prior to investigation."
-- Herbert Spencer

User avatar
JLAD Prove Me Wrong
Valued contributor
Valued contributor
Posts: 332
Joined: Wed Jun 06, 2018 8:35 pm

Re: Proving/Disproving the Holocaust in less than half an hour

Postby JLAD Prove Me Wrong » 2 months 6 days ago (Sat Aug 17, 2019 2:51 am)

Hi Alonso,

It is all a lie. Why do people get thrown in jail for writing books? Or researching then opening their mouths. Sure, you can be offended about it. But to take it to the level of taking someone to court, not over slander, but over researching then talking about the finding of the research conducted is just showing that there's something fishy going on. Unfortunate for them, it's too late and the world will know in the coming years that many things about World War I and World War II are lies.

If you question a subject like the holocaust, and you are immediately shunned by the international governments. Not even questioning the subject, just speaking of more research of it and that you feel it should not be punishable to do so. Why is that a crime, no there should be no further interruptions - Why is that a crime. Regardless of whether or not it happened - why is it a crime to research and write about the findings regardless of the findings being it happened or didn't happen - why is it a crime to research the specific documents from that time, come up with the facts and determine the official correct answer? Again there should be no interruptions nor any questions in response to this question which shall not stop ever being asked. Why is it a crime throughout most of the West to go this far?

Of course, this is if you kept on and on LONG AFTER your life is destroyed, career is tarnished, name is ruined, etc. and don't forget the label "holocaust denier" because you researched, found no documents not one not one at all proving genocide of the Jewish people. Even if the answer to more research is that it did indeed happen - what difference does that make? Why are they now entitled to all of this, and constant reparations to family members that NEVER END from GERMANY for this? Do you know how many died, how many were raped, then Britain and America helped turn the Germans (civilians and POWs) over to the Soviet Union who also had many US and British troops as POWs to make sure that the other two countries complied, however they would've anyways knowing or not knowing because they were in it for the long run. The 'Allies' who ruined Adolf Hitler. Those three scum who ruined the potential future of Earth, and we can only hope not for the rest of human history, are named as follows: Joseph Stalin, Roosevelt, and Winston Churchill. If they were still alive, they'd deserve to be hung, for war crimes and crimes overall against humanity as a whole.
If your beliefs cannot stand up to your own sincere scrutiny and skeptical evaluation, they are not worth having.

https://freespeechmonika.wordpress.com/ ... t-details/

User avatar
Dresden
Valuable asset
Valuable asset
Posts: 1424
Joined: Sat Mar 05, 2011 5:38 pm

Re: Proving/Disproving the Holocaust in less than half an hour

Postby Dresden » 2 months 6 days ago (Sat Aug 17, 2019 8:03 am)

Alonso said:

"Recently a friend of mine challenged my view. I offered him some very compelling evidence that suggests that the Holocaust is a hoax (confessions extracted under torture, prosecution of revisionists), but I couldn't offer anything that proves it conclusively"

Here is an interesting thread:

Your Top Reasons(for not believing in the 'holocaust')
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=7275&p=53924&hilit=eery#p53924

One of the top reasons I don't believe in the 'holocaust' is the Color of "Gassed" Corpses.

The fact that not a single "eyewitness" got the color of the "gassed" corpses right, is conclusive proof that they never saw the corpse of a person who died from Carbon Monoxide, or Hydrogen Cyanide.
The distinctive "Cherry Red" color of gassing victims would have been noticed and never forgotten by everyone who saw them.
A pile of naked gassed corpses would have looked like a pile of Lobsters, and most, if not ALL, of the eyewitnesses would have mentioned the eery sight!
Maybe, just maybe, they believe what they are telling you about the 'holocaust', but maybe, just maybe, their contempt for your intelligence and your character is beyond anything you could ever have imagined. -- Bradley Smith

flimflam
Valued contributor
Valued contributor
Posts: 172
Joined: Tue Sep 08, 2015 9:19 am
Contact:

Re: Proving/Disproving the Holocaust in less than half an hour

Postby flimflam » 2 months 6 days ago (Sat Aug 17, 2019 12:28 pm)

The best direct evidence that the holocaust did not happen in the camps is the Nazi camp records. At Auschwitz the Nazis kept meticulous records including doctor signed death certificates for each prisoner that died, and monthly summaries now known as death books. These records show that there was no holocaust at Auschwitz. You can read about them here - http://auschwitz.org/en/museum/about-the-available-data/death-records/sterbebucher The death book are now available, at the NY public library for example -
Image.

So, if the records show there was no holocaust, how did the hoax get created? Simple, the Soviets captured the records and immediately 'disappeared' them. They were not released until 1989 following glasnost. Wiki still claims that the Nazis destroyed the Auschwitz records ... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auschwitz_concentration_camp ..
The SS destroyed written records, and in the final week before the camp's liberation, ....

The Soviets also captured the Majdanek records, Auschwitz and Majdanek were the only hoax death camps liberated. There were only six, and four had been razed before the end of the war - https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/killing-centers-an-overview
As the Majdanek records were released the estimated death toll dropped as shown in this graph ...
Image
Ergo, no holocaust at Majdanek, and the USHMM no longer considers it a 'death camp', so we're down to 5.

The US/Brits did not liberate any hoax death camps, so the records they captured do not pertain to the current holohoax (immediately following the war all the camps were labeled death camps, but now the number is 5), but they hid them anyhow, they have become available to the select in the last few years, see https://www.theguardian.com/world/2006/feb/21/highereducation.secondworldwar

There are 2 types of evidence to consider, evidence that the holocaust did not happen, and evidence that the Jews have created a massive hoax that it did happen. Evidence of a hoax is easy to find, e.g. the stone plaque at the gate to Auschwitz claiming that 4 million had died there -
Image
It was replaced in 1990 following the release of the Auschwitz records, the sign now claims that 1.5 million were killed there. So the original 4 million number is now an admitted hoax. The 1.5 million is also pure fantasy without evidence, i.e., a hoax, as it is now admitted that the total # of prisoners deported to Auschwitz was 1.3 million - wiki Auschwitz -
Of the estimated 1.3 million people sent to Auschwitz

Another good example of the hoax is the fake gas chamber at Auschwitz. Note that there is only one bit of physical evidence of the existence of gas chambers, the chutes in the roof of the Krema 1 gas chamber at Auschwitz where the Nazis tossed the Zyklon (a commercial insecticide used for delousing) into the chamber to kill the Jews. You can see them in this pic ..
Image
There are a couple of problem this gas chamber - the door into the gas chamber is a typical unsealed office door with a large plate glass window ..
Image
so the gas chamber is a prima facie hoax, but that hasn't prevented it from being shown to millions of Auschwitz visitors each year. The final blow to the hoax was delivered by holohoax scholars R Van Pelt and D Dwork in 'Auschwitz: 1270 to the Present (2002)' ...
When Auschwitz was transformed into a museum after the war, the decision was taken to concentrate the history of the whole complex into one of its component parts. The infamous crematoria where the mass murders had taken place lay in ruins in Birkenau, two miles away. The committee felt that a crematorium was required at the end of the memorial journey, and crematorium I was reconstructed to speak for the history of the incinerators at Birkenau. This program of usurpation was rather detailed. A chimney, the ultimate symbol of Birkenau, was re-created; four hatched openings in the roof, as if for pouring Zyklon B into the gas chamber below, were installed, and two of the three furnaces were rebuilt using original parts. There are no signs to explain these restitutions, they were not marked at the time, and the guides remain silent about it when they take visitors through this building that is presumed by the tourist to be the place where it happened.
So, that's for starters - for more see https://www.holohoax101.org and https://www.bitchute.com/Rumpelstiltskin/

Alonso
Posts: 5
Joined: Thu Aug 08, 2019 12:48 pm

Re: Proving/Disproving the Holocaust in less than half an hour

Postby Alonso » 2 months 6 days ago (Sat Aug 17, 2019 12:36 pm)

Thank you for all the answers. There is so much information, I've spent the last four hours going over only a fraction of it and I'm exhausted. I reply below to what I have checked so far and will check the rest soon. My impression so far is that the question I posed is not very realistic. While compelling arguments can be presented in less than half an hour, it looks like presenting conclusive evidence in a meaningful way would take much longer.

Hannover wrote:Hello Alonso, welcome.

Thank you! After being verbally abused and censored in several other places just for asking, it feels good to be welcome :)

Hannover wrote:violators go to prison for Thought Crimes

Actually, nobody goes to prison for thought crimes, people go to prison, and only in certain occasions (e. g. David Irving), for "speech crimes". I know you're using a metaphore here, but I believe the difference is essential. Without going into much detail, the concepts presented in 1984, while very useful for political discussion, wouldn't work in real life. The current system of thought control is far less intrusive than the one depicted in 1984, and I believe that is one of the reasons of its success. Indeed, I think that this "restraint" in thought control is crucial in the overwhelming success of the mainstream Holocaust narrative. It might be interesting to create a thread on this topic.

Regarding the rest of your post, while it does provide interesting starting points for further investigation, it doesn't offer evidence per se. For instance, the information in this link
Hannover wrote:For a thorough demolition of the alleged Auschwitz gas chambers & alleged Auschwitz homicidal gassing process see analysis at: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=11143&p=83723&hilit=model+asmarques#p83723

is quite illustrative, and I guess it might equal evidence for scholars who are very familiar with the topic, but for those of us who have very limited or no knowledge it's hard to tell. The quotes, pictures and data in that post could be made up or faked. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that they are. But I'm sure that finding the right sources to prove their authenticity would take many hours, days or even weeks.


Lamprecht wrote:If it will be a 1-on-1 discussion, you will want to have some major points to consider. Sometimes a good strategy is to ask "Why do YOU believe the Holocaust?" and then take apart those reasons piece-by-piece.

I just told my friend about this thread and asked him this question. He's on holidays at the beach though, so it might be a while before he answers.

Lamprecht wrote:Your Top Five Reasons For Not Believing the Holocaust
viewtopic.php?t=12407

Lots of info there. I've continued the discussion in that thread.

Lamprecht wrote:What do you mean by "Neutral"? Please keep in mind in many countries it is illegal to question the "Holocaust" story and, in those where it is not illegal, you will most likely lose your job and have your reputation ruined for questioning it.

Good question. As I wrote my first post I considered describing in detail the kind of evidence I'm looking for, but, being my first post I decided that it was best to make it as brief as possible. By "neutral" I essentially mean original documents, documents for which we can be reasonably sure that they haven't been forged or tampered with. I recently settled a discussion with my friend in this way. The topic was whether Obama had dropped thousands of bombs during his mandate. I showed him the reports published by the Pentagon in their website and that was the end of the discussion.

Examples of the topic at hand would be the original documents that prove that the confessions of Rudolf Höss were extracted by torture. I think that a couple of years ago I found an original document in an archive of the US government in which a high ranking military officer confessed the torture. Unfortunately, I have searched for that document just now and haven't been able to find it. Apparently there is also a confession by Ken Jones, the main torturer, in a British diary, the Wrexham Leader (October 17,1986). There, Jones says "We sat in the cell with him, night and day, armed with axe handles. Our job was to prod him every time he fell asleep to help break down his resistance". I've searched online for an original copy of the article in that diary but haven't found it either.

Other than that, admissions by mainstream narrative defenders, while not valid as evidence, are quite compelling. The book Legions of Death is a good example. It purports to describe "The Nazi Enslavement of Europe", but paradoxically it provides a detailed account of how the allies tortured Höss, and it can be read online: https://books.google.es/books?id=Vi_AAwAAQBAJ

User avatar
Hannover
Valuable asset
Valuable asset
Posts: 9873
Joined: Sun Nov 24, 2002 7:53 pm

Re: Proving/Disproving the Holocaust in less than half an hour

Postby Hannover » 2 months 5 days ago (Sat Aug 17, 2019 2:14 pm)

Alonso said:
Actually, nobody goes to prison for thought crimes, people go to prison, and only in certain occasions (e. g. David Irving), for "speech crimes". I know you're using a metaphore here, but I believe the difference is essential. Without going into much detail, the concepts presented in 1984, while very useful for political discussion, wouldn't work in real life. The current system of thought control is far less intrusive than the one depicted in 1984, and I believe that is one of the reasons of its success. Indeed, I think that this "restraint" in thought control is crucial in the overwhelming success of the mainstream Holocaust narrative. It might be interesting to create a thread on this topic.

Regarding the rest of your post, while it does provide interesting starting points for further investigation, it doesn't offer evidence per se. For instance, the information in this link
We have an entire growing list of those who have in fact been imprisoned and the map I posted show you where you will indeed to go to prison. You say you are Spanish. Try crossing the border into France state your thoughts that you find the 'holocaust' claims to be fraudulent and see what happens.
The current system has increased it's suppression of free speech under Orwellian "hate speech" laws, where only Zionists and their left get to determine what that includes.
I do believe that people are waking up as the debate about the impossible "holocaust' is becoming common place.
Here are links from American Jew Ron Unz's site, http://www.unz.review.com

American Pravda: Holocaust Denial, by Ron Unz:
http://www.unz.com/runz/american-pravda ... st-denial/

Babi Yar: The Einsatzgruppen 'Killings'
http://www.unz.com/article/babi-yar/

"The Holocaust" Is a Myth That Conceals Our Shame
http://www.unz.com/kbarrett/the-holocau ... our-shame/
Teaching Holocaust, Don't know much about history, by Philip Giraldi
http://www.unz.com/pgiraldi/teaching-holocaust/
Myth and the Russian Pogroms, by Andrew Joyce:
http://www.unz.com/article/myth-and-the ... n-pogroms/
The Lies About World War II, Paul Craig Roberts
http://www.unz.com/proberts/the-lies-ab ... ld-war-ii/
Roosevelt Conspired to Start World War II in Europe
http://www.unz.com/article/roosevelt-co ... in-europe/

You also said:
Regarding the rest of your post, while it does provide interesting starting points for further investigation, it doesn't offer evidence per se. For instance, the information in this link

Hannover wrote:
For a thorough demolition of the alleged Auschwitz gas chambers & alleged Auschwitz homicidal gassing process see analysis at: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=11143&p=83723&hilit=model+asmarques#p83723


is quite illustrative, and I guess it might equal evidence for scholars who are very familiar with the topic, but for those of us who have very limited or no knowledge it's hard to tell. The quotes, pictures and data in that post could be made up or faked. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that they are. But I'm sure that finding the right sources to prove their authenticity would take many hours, days or even weeks.

The "quotes, pictures and data" are from "holocaust Industry" sources, not me.
You ask for instant gratification proof that the 'holocaust' narrative is fraudulent, I give it to you and then you blow it off as being too complicated.
And what about the complete lack of human remains that alleged to be in known locations, yet are not there? is that also too complicated?
Frankly, you seem to be looking for an excuse to hang on to a scam that does not withstand scrutiny. Cognitive dissonance can do that to a person's thoughts. Remember, all Revisionists used to be True Believers.
Come on, Alonso, we're on your side.
I suggest that you approach each element within the highly profitable fraud. You're in the right place.

Revisionists are just the messengers, the absurd impossibility of the laughable 'holocaust' storyline is the message.

Take no offense, I speak directly.

Regards, Hannover

No alleged immense human remains to be seen in alleged known locations, no 'holocaust'
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

User avatar
JLAD Prove Me Wrong
Valued contributor
Valued contributor
Posts: 332
Joined: Wed Jun 06, 2018 8:35 pm

Re: Proving/Disproving the Holocaust in less than half an hour

Postby JLAD Prove Me Wrong » 2 months 5 days ago (Sat Aug 17, 2019 2:29 pm)

Alonso, bear in mind that there are several pillars of the holocaust narrative. These include, but are not limited to,

1. Einsatzgruppen

2. Gassings

3. Survivors

4. Holocaust/Hate Speech 'Laws'

5. Nuremberg Trials

6. Guilting gentile whites for the holocaust

If you have questions about these, perhaps you could make new posts about them, and myself, and others could answer you?
If your beliefs cannot stand up to your own sincere scrutiny and skeptical evaluation, they are not worth having.

https://freespeechmonika.wordpress.com/ ... t-details/

User avatar
Lamprecht
Valuable asset
Valuable asset
Posts: 1194
Joined: Sun Nov 30, 2008 6:32 pm

Re: Proving/Disproving the Holocaust in less than half an hour

Postby Lamprecht » 2 months 5 days ago (Sat Aug 17, 2019 4:29 pm)

Alonso - here are a few good books on the "Holocaust"

(PDF) Lectures on the Holocaust
http://holocausthandbooks.com/dl/15-loth.pdf

Dissecting the Holocaust
https://codoh.com/library/series/918/ (scroll down to "Documents in this series)"
PDF: https://holocausthandbooks.com/dl/01-dth.pdf


As for Hoess, there is a lot of good information on him here:

(PDF) Commandant of Auschwitz—Rudolf Höss, His Torture and His Forced Confessions
https://holocausthandbooks.com/dl/35-coa.pdf

Hoess himself in his own autobiography wrote about his torture, but if you want to focus on his statements read the above PDF dedicated to it.

Hoess has been discredited even by the "Holocaust" believers themselves:

"Both Rudolf Hoess's and Eichmann's testimonies lack credibility."
(Source: Roseman, Mark (2002) "The Wannsee Conference and the Final Solution: A Reconsideration")
"There is a principal which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments, and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance -- that principal is contempt prior to investigation."
-- Herbert Spencer

CHoutle
Member
Member
Posts: 38
Joined: Wed Oct 09, 2019 4:22 pm

Re: Proving/Disproving the Holocaust in less than half an hour

Postby CHoutle » 1 week 6 days ago (Wed Oct 09, 2019 5:04 pm)

Alonso wrote:...My current view is that it is almost certain that the Holocaust is a big lie... in reading about this very complex topic I got lost in the endless details.


And therein lies the strength of the jews position on this issue. The problem is the so-called "holocaust" is not a single event that happened in a specific place at a specific time. therefore it cannot be "denied" per se. The argument should be reframed before you attempt to debate it.

You cannot "disprove" the holocaust per se because it is simply the title given the time and place and total events, both true and false, of that era. IOW, you cannot "disprove" the holocaust per se, only certain events within it, since even the debunked aspects of the so-called "holocaust" are a part of the so-called "holocaust." That's why the jews frame this issue the way they do. They can label you a "holocaust denier" for simply questioning certain unsubstantiated allegations, even if those allegation are physical impossibilities. And even if you do successfully debunk a certain "holocaust fact," the "holocaust" still stands.

It's sort of like asking someone if they deny the Reformation or the Renaissance if they are questioning something that is contrary to the orthodox story of that period. You can debunk countless different aspects of those two periods of time, but the Reformation or the Renaissance would still stand.

You are much better off re-challenging your friend with something like:

"Do you deny that the so-called "holocaust," as is commonly alleged in orthodox historiography, has never been proven beyond a reasonable doubt?"

Remember, when you are asked, or if you ask someone else if they "deny" something, you or they are presupposing an alleged fact:

presuppose
[ˌprēsəˈpōz]
VERB
presupposing (present participle)
acitly assume at the beginning of a line of argument or course of action that something is the case.


So it's best not to go there unless you are the one using the trick.

User avatar
Hannover
Valuable asset
Valuable asset
Posts: 9873
Joined: Sun Nov 24, 2002 7:53 pm

Re: Proving/Disproving the Holocaust in less than half an hour

Postby Hannover » 1 week 6 days ago (Wed Oct 09, 2019 7:21 pm)

CHoutle said:
You cannot "disprove" the holocaust per se because it is simply the title given the time and place and total events, both true and false, of that era. IOW, you cannot "disprove" the holocaust per se, only certain events within it, since even the debunked aspects of the so-called "holocaust" are a part of the so-called "holocaust." That's why the jews frame this issue the way they do. They can label you a "holocaust denier" for simply questioning certain unsubstantiated allegations, even if those allegation are physical impossibilities. And even if you do successfully debunk a certain "holocaust fact," the "holocaust" still stands.

I disagree.

Revisionists have proven without a shadow of doubt there was no 6M murdered Jews, no millions of 'others' murdered, & no gas chambers.

Imagine some organization like the ADL saying: 'Sorry folks, there was no '6M murdered Jews, no millions of 'others' murdered, & no gas chambers'', while still claiming that the 'holocaust' was true. :lol: LOL

The claimed '6M murdered Jews, millions of 'others' murdered, & gas chambers' IS the 'holocaust".

- Hannover

No alleged human remains of millions upon millions in allegedly known locations, no ‘holocaust’.
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

User avatar
Lamprecht
Valuable asset
Valuable asset
Posts: 1194
Joined: Sun Nov 30, 2008 6:32 pm

Re: Proving/Disproving the Holocaust in less than half an hour

Postby Lamprecht » 1 week 6 days ago (Wed Oct 09, 2019 11:04 pm)

CHoutle wrote:You cannot "disprove" the holocaust per se because it is simply the title given the time and place and total events, both true and false, of that era. IOW, you cannot "disprove" the holocaust per se, only certain events within it, since even the debunked aspects of the so-called "holocaust" are a part of the so-called "holocaust." That's why the jews frame this issue the way they do. They can label you a "holocaust denier" for simply questioning certain unsubstantiated allegations, even if those allegation are physical impossibilities. And even if you do successfully debunk a certain "holocaust fact," the "holocaust" still stands.

This reminds me of something I posted about a couple weeks ago when someone mentioned Mark Weber's interview on the Hannity show. They put him up there and kept calling him a "Holocaust denier" (this was about the Holocaust conference in Iran) and saying he supports a regime that wants to "wipe Israel off the map" or whatever. Then some guy pointed out that he denies gas chambers, and then showed pictures on the screen of crematoria (which no revisionists claim are fake) and said that is what Weber and the IHR deny. Which is incorrect, but he didn't even correct them.

The Holocaust can be disproven easily, as Hannover pointed out, but the issue comes with people who don't really know what it means. They think "Holocaust" is defined as "the collective suffering of European Jews from the date Hitler became chancellor to the end of WWII" when it is not the case. So the images in their heads that they see (corpses, mass graves, crematoria, deportations, ghettos, etc) are not "denied" by anyone but somehow these things which are not the Holocaust are equated with it, in their minds. And that is where the word "Denier" gets its power in this case, via obfuscation and the equivocation fallacy.
"There is a principal which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments, and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance -- that principal is contempt prior to investigation."
-- Herbert Spencer

User avatar
borjastick
Valuable asset
Valuable asset
Posts: 2503
Joined: Fri Aug 26, 2011 5:52 am
Location: Europe

Re: Proving/Disproving the Holocaust in less than half an hour

Postby borjastick » 1 week 6 days ago (Thu Oct 10, 2019 2:01 am)

These days whenever I discuss the holocaust face to face with someone I try to first clarify what they mean by the word 'holocaust'.

To me the holocaust as claimed was the deliberate destruction by mass murder of the jews in europe in very few, known locations, in a specific action over a very short period of time. Therefore the evidence to prove that series of precise events should be both plentiful and easy to see.

I then ask people if they believe it is possible to cremate millions of people in a short space of time in one or two camps and then make all their remains disappear, for good.

Then if they get stuck in to the detail a bit I ask them if they think it possible to gas 800,000 plus people in Treblinka, bury them, then dig them up some months later burn them all in open air pits, without the necessary fuel resource, so that no cremains are found.

That usually sorts them out.

So yes it is very possible to both identify the events and deny them due to a complete lack of credible and large evidence.
'Of the four million Jews under Nazi control in WW2, six million died and alas only five million survived.'

'We don't need evidence, we have survivors' - israeli politician


Return to “'Holocaust' Debate / Controversies / Comments / News”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 12 guests