the 'vergasungskeller' note

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ClaudiaRothenbach
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Postby ClaudiaRothenbach » 1 decade 5 years ago (Fri Apr 23, 2004 2:57 pm)

aemathisphd wrote:
He says 2 morgues weren't equppied with ventillation...which ones? were they underground as were the morgues at Kremas II & III?
We have already shot down the ventilation nonsense in the links here which I posted, but ofcourse aemathisphd ignores them. Well, he dodges them actually.


Ask Ms. Rothenbach. She was the one who pointed out that two morgues lacked ventilation in another thread.

I have dodged nothing.

Germar Rudolf:
1 - All morgues in Birkenau had ventilations systems with some 10 air exchanges per hour, a normal performance, as this was required by German war-time law for underground morgues (5-10 air exchanges per hour)[30]


He's incorrect, as Ms. Rothenbach pointed out.


I do not remember writing something about ventilation. Could you help me, please? :?:

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Scott
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Postby Scott » 1 decade 5 years ago (Sat Apr 24, 2004 10:27 am)

aemathisphd wrote:Note that the first link is a revisionist one. The word Vergasung is clearly used here to mean homocidal gassing. That seems to be an oversight on Mr. Bradley Smith's part, because in having this on his site, he has made my case for me.

Broszat's "Keine Vergasung in Dachau" letter comes from 1960, whereas the document in question, NO-4473 comes from the Nuremberg trials, and the lexicography was thus already established in Broszat's usage. The closest we can come previous to NO-4473 itself in German usage is references to a military poison gas attack. Many plausible alternative explanations have been offered, from fumigation to gasification, aeration or even chemical warfare defense. But Bischoff could have called it "the room that makes things go" and a homicidal explanation would have been found. There is no assurance which room he was even talking about or even if it was in the Krema building.

:D
Last edited by Scott on Sat Apr 24, 2004 9:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 5 years ago (Sat Apr 24, 2004 12:20 pm)

Scott makes an excellent, elegantly simple point here:
There is no assurance which room he was even talking about or even if it was in the Krema building.

There it is, as direct as it gets.

The obvious conclusion is that Bischoff was referring to an area where delousing occurred. Given the vast amount of delousing the Germans engaged in, there is simply no reason to assign the unsupportable interpretation that he was referring to a non-existent homicidal gas chamber.

So, we have yet another reality check for those who believe the fantasy of German homicidal gas chambers.

Only with the so called 'holocau$t' does fantasy pass as 'fact'.

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If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Postby Sailor » 1 decade 5 years ago (Sat Apr 24, 2004 12:50 pm)

Scott wrote:There is no assurance which room he was even talking about or even if it was in the Krema building.

:D

There were not that many cellars in Birkenau. As far as I know, only Krema II and III, and I believe the sauna building had cellars.

The construction of underground basements was difficult and expensive because of the high ground water problem in the camp area.

fge

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 5 years ago (Sat Apr 24, 2004 12:55 pm)

There is no indication that the 'cellar' was the morgue room that is absurdly said to have been a 'gas chamber'.

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Postby Scott » 1 decade 5 years ago (Sat Apr 24, 2004 10:12 pm)

Bischoff could have meant to write "room" instead of "cellar." The recipient probably would not have been too concerned about exact terminology. He could have even wrote fumigation-cellar when he meant the undressing-cellar or another morgue.

In any case, it seems logical that some provision for fumigation of clothes would be made at the Kremas themselves because of infested clothes removed from corpses to be disposed of. The small Leichenkeller 3 could have been used or intended for this. The other alternative is to haul the clothes out of the undressing-cellar (LKII) and up to the incinerator on the opposite side where the chimney is. Much of the clothing would have been salvageable if nearby fumigation was provided for, however.

To say that this is a smoking-gun for the Leichenkeller LK-1 being anything other than a morgue is a stretch.

:D

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Postby Sailor » 1 decade 5 years ago (Sat Apr 24, 2004 11:51 pm)

Hannover wrote: There is no indication that the 'cellar' was the morgue room that is absurdly said to have been a 'gas chamber'.

True. My opinion also.

So the question is: Which cellar did Bischoff refer to in his letter?

Because of the frost, it has not yet been possible to remove the formwork from the ceiling of the corpse cellar. This is of no consequence, however, as the gassing cellar can be used to this end.

Mattogno thinks, that it was Leichenkeller 2 which could not be used. This he based on:

- A »Bericht Nr.1« from Bischoff to Kammler dated Jan. 23, 1943:
»Keller 2. Eisenbetondecke fertig betoniert (Ausschalung von Witterungsverhältnissen abhängig).«
(Cellar 2. Concrete pouring of steel reinforced concrete ceiling finished. (Removing the form works depends on the wheather).

- Engineer Kurt Prüfer wrote in his progress report on January 29, 1943:
»Decke des Leichenkellers 2 kann wegen Frost noch nicht ausgeschalt werden.«
(The form work of the ceiling of morgue cellar 2 cannot be removed because of frost)

- SS-Obersturmführer Kirschnek wrote on the same day in a “note to file”:
»Der Leichenkeller 2 ist soweit fertiggestellt, bis auf die Ausschalung der Decke, welche Arbeiten von frostfreien Tagen abhängig sind.«
(Morgue cellar 2 is sofar finished, except the removal of the form works for the ceiling, the work of which depends on frost-free days.)

The only other cellar at that time would be morgue cellar 1, which apparently could be used as a morgue, even without the ventilation. The outside temperatures were at that time quite low, between –1 and –8ºC.

Morgue cellar 2 was`referred to by construction workers as a »Auskleide Keller« (disrobing cellar). It was at that time customary to disrobe all corpses prior to the cremation. According to SS-Hauptsturmführer Kramer, the clothes of the registered dead inmates were cleaned and reused, unless the dead had an infectious disease. In that case the clothes were incinerated.

As an aside:
It is interesting to observe, that the morgue cellar 2, the “disrobing cellar”, could not be used prior to March 31, 1943 (the supporting members of the ceiling form works would prevent this), but still Danuta Czech maintains in her “Kalendarium”, that on March 20, 1943 2,191 Greek Jews were gassed. She gives no proof for this.

At the time when Bischoff wrote the letter to Kammler on January 29, 1943, the epidemic was in no way over, with over 4500 dead per month. On top the camp administration was expecting a large inflow of new inmates.

In the beginning of January 1943 Bischoff listed in a report to Kammler the total number of installations for disinfestation and delousing: five in the main camp Auschwitz and four in Birkenau.
Shortly after, three of these installations failed because of a fire: the hot air apparatus in Block 1 in Auschwitz, the hot air apparatus in Birkenau in BW 5a & b, and finally the hot air disinfestation equipment of the “Truppenenwesungsanlage”.

The hygienic-sanitary situation was at that time in Auschwitz/Birkenau not satisfactory. Bischoff reported in a »Hausverfügung Nr.86« on January 25, 1943:
»Auf Grund einer Anordnung des SS-Standortarztes KL. Auschwitz wird ab sofort über sämtliche SS-Angehörigen der Zentralbauleitung, welche in der Bauleitungsunterkunftsbaracke wohnen, eine 3-wöchentliche Quarantäne verhängt.«
(Because of the instructions by the SS-Standortarzt (camp medical doctor) of the camp Auschwitz is immediately on all SS-members of the Zentralbauleitung, who are living in the construction administration barrack, a 3-week quarantine imposed.)

And later Bischoff wrote in a letter to Kammler on February 12, 1943 about the »increase of the spotted fever deseases«:
»Infolge starken Ansteigens von Fleckfiebererkrankungen bei der Wachtruppe wurde am 9. Februar 1943 durch SS-Brigadeführer und Generalmajor der Waffen-SS Glücks die totale Lagersperre über das K.L. Auschwitz verhängt. Jm Zusammenhang damit werden seit dem 11.2.43 sämtliche Häftlinge entwest und dürfen das Lager nicht verlassen, was zu Folge hat, daß die Bauwerke, an denen vorwiegend Häftlinge eingesetzt waren, stillgelegt werden mußten. Die Wiederaufnahme der Arbeiten wird durch die Zentralbauleitung gemeldet.«
(Because of the strong increase of spotted fever disease among the guards, SS-Brigadeführer and Generalmajor of the Waffen-SS Glücks imposed a total ban on the camp Auschwitz. In connection with this are all inmates since 2/11/43 to be disinfested and are not permitted to leave the camp. As a consequence, all building projects, where predominantly inmates are employed, had to be shut down. The Zentralbauleitung will report the resumption of the work.)

In view of this situation it is reasonable to assume, that the SS-administration planned because of the failure due to the fire a temporary Zyklon-B fumigation chamber in morgue cellar 1 of Krema II. It was evidently called “Vergasungskeller” similar to the prussian acid chamber in BW5a & B, which was called “Vergasungsraum”.

See also Mattogno: “Die Leichenkeller der Krematorien von Birkenau im Lichte der Dokumente” (The morgues of the crematoria of Birkenau in the light of the documents) http://vho.org/VffG/2003/3/Mattogno357-365.html

fge

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Postby aemathisphd » 1 decade 5 years ago (Sun Apr 25, 2004 11:06 am)

Hannover wrote:The obvious conclusion is that Bischoff was referring to an area where delousing occurred. Given the vast amount of delousing the Germans engaged in, there is simply no reason to assign the unsupportable interpretation that he was referring to a non-existent homicidal gas chamber.


Obvious to you, perhaps, but not to everyone.

Note, for one thing, that Scott concedes that "vergasung" could refer to poison gas attacks. Certainly Brozsat's note, despite its date, could not rely on an obscure Nuremberg document not known to the general public to have made a sea change on German meaning in a mere 15 years.

Second, and to repeat myself, the Nazis deloused the room we are referring to exactly once. Hardly a "vast amount of delousing."

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Postby aemathisphd » 1 decade 5 years ago (Sun Apr 25, 2004 11:09 am)

Scott wrote:Bischoff could have meant to write "room" instead of "cellar." The recipient probably would not have been too concerned about exact terminology. He could have even wrote fumigation-cellar when he meant the undressing-cellar or another morgue.


And he could have written "Vergasungskeller" and meant "breakfast pastry." But somehow, I doubt it.

It is something of a stretch to suggest that a man intended to write "Raum" and wrote "Keller" instead. More importantly, "Vergasung" is not used to denote "fumigation."

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 5 years ago (Sun Apr 25, 2004 2:30 pm)

mr. mathis said:
Second, and to repeat myself, the Nazis deloused the room we are referring to exactly once. Hardly a "vast amount of delousing."

And to repeat myself, the scant cyanide residue is not indicative of mass murder, as we have shown in links given. It is indicative of one fumigation however....oops.
again see: http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=267

I notice mr. mathis has got caught making false statements attributed to Claudia Rothenbach, he now dodges her request to show where she made those statements.

And, mr. mathis completely ignores Sailor's thorough debunking of the vergasungskeller note canard just prior to mr. mathis's latest response. Why does he dodge that?

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Postby aemathisphd » 1 decade 5 years ago (Sun Apr 25, 2004 4:20 pm)

ClaudiaRothenbach wrote:aemathisphd wrote:
He says 2 morgues weren't equppied with ventillation...which ones? were they underground as were the morgues at Kremas II & III?
We have already shot down the ventilation nonsense in the links here which I posted, but ofcourse aemathisphd ignores them. Well, he dodges them actually.


Ask Ms. Rothenbach. She was the one who pointed out that two morgues lacked ventilation in another thread.

I have dodged nothing.

Germar Rudolf:
1 - All morgues in Birkenau had ventilations systems with some 10 air exchanges per hour, a normal performance, as this was required by German war-time law for underground morgues (5-10 air exchanges per hour)[30]


He's incorrect, as Ms. Rothenbach pointed out.


I do not remember writing something about ventilation. Could you help me, please? :?:


Here you are:

http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?p= ... ation#5868

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Postby aemathisphd » 1 decade 5 years ago (Sun Apr 25, 2004 4:21 pm)

Sailor did not ask a direct question of me. Thus I did not "dodge" anything.

I am under no requirement to address every revisionist post here.

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Postby aemathisphd » 1 decade 5 years ago (Sun Apr 25, 2004 4:22 pm)

Sorry, to correct myself above: "Zimmer" would be "room"; not "Raum." At least I don't think.

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Zimmer

Postby ClaudiaRothenbach » 1 decade 5 years ago (Sun Apr 25, 2004 5:05 pm)

"room" can be "Zimmer" or "Raum".

Ventilation issue in Morgues/gas chambers:
Crema 1 : no ventilation
Crema 2 + 3 : with ventilation
Crema 4 + 5 : no ventilation

The ventilation in morgue 1 of cremas 2 + 3 was constructed for morgues. The ventilation was not strong enough for the air exchange after gassings as alledged (see Rudolf report).

The ventilation in the morgues 2 of cremas 2 + 3 was even better than the morgue 1 ventilation. And these are no alledged gas chambers (stupid Germans).

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Re: Zimmer

Postby aemathisphd » 1 decade 5 years ago (Sun Apr 25, 2004 5:09 pm)

ClaudiaRothenbach wrote:"room" can be "Zimmer" or "Raum".


Thank you.

Ventilation issue in Morgues/gas chambers:
Crema 1 : no ventilation
Crema 2 + 3 : with ventilation
Crema 4 + 5 : no ventilation

The ventilation in morgue 1 of cremas 2 + 3 was constructed for morgues. The ventilation was not strong enough for the air exchange after gassings as alledged (see Rudolf report).


Apparently it was sufficient (see Green affidavit).

The ventilation in the morgues 2 of cremas 2 + 3 was even better than the morgue 1 ventilation. And these are no alledged gas chambers (stupid Germans).


Can you cite a source for this?

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