The Sonderkommando problem

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SamuelGordy
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Re: The Sonderkommando problem

Postby SamuelGordy » 4 years 8 months ago (Tue Jan 05, 2016 5:32 am)

As for someone saying that 'slavery never happened'; first, I really doubt that anyone would actually say that, and secondly, one would certainly be met with scorn if they did.


Oh, I forgot to mention that I live in Europe (central - southeast europe). If I say to someone that I don't give a s*** about slavery and that it didn't happen at all, nobody would care. Not that everyone here is racist or something like that, it's just that we didn't hear about it that much in school or in the media, unlike people in countries that actually had slavery.

But the holocaust... That's something else, all over the world I think.

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Re: The Sonderkommando problem

Postby Horhug » 4 years 8 months ago (Thu Jan 07, 2016 7:00 pm)

SamuelGordy wrote:
But the holocaust... That's something else, all over the world I think.




This illustrates the massive scale and pernicious reach of the H propaganda.

My experience is that the vast majority of people have absolutely no idea about the narrative whatsoever, beyond the "6 million Jews were gassed" canard.

This is the main reason why it is impossible to debate them, because they have nothing to debate.

All they think they "know" is the headline. Beyond that they are lost.

Because of this, the vast majority will be unable to respond at all and so will resort to all kinds of dissonant behaviours.

During emails with Bradley Smith, I was asked to recount how I became aware of the Revisionist position and so, for the first time ever, I thought about what I knew, when I knew it and how I knew it.

It's a useful exercise.

I recalled as a pre-teen child "knowing" that the Jews had been gassed and turned into soap !

The other kids I played with also knew it.

How did we know this ?

Osmosis, urban myth, the grape vine, who knows.

My parents didn't tell me. There were no H lessons in school back then. I didn't read it in any H books.

Here in the UK, the TV series "The World at War" was most probably the vehicle through which the wider masses became aware of the alleged horrors in the labour camps.

So, that trickles down through the generations, so that "everyone knew that "the Jews were gassed" and "rendered into soap".

I recall the first conversation I had with my own parents after I had grown up and learned that the H narrative was full of holes.

"But we've seen the piles of bodies on TV" was the hysterical response.

And then silence when I suggested that those images were of typhus victims not gassing victims.

I became the heretic, because they knew and I didn't. When in fact, the reverse is true.

It's become the New World Order Religion.

A faith based dogma that captivates it's unthinking disciples in a Rabbinical myth of pure horror.

The times are changing though and the Zio grip on the narrative is slipping.

Long may that continue, despite their global control of the media, they are and will, eventually be exposed, en masse, for the deceivers that they are.

The world has paid and is paying a heavy price for their treachery.


.

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Re: The Sonderkommando problem

Postby Carto's Cutlass Supreme » 4 years 8 months ago (Sat Jan 09, 2016 3:00 am)

Hi Horhug, You're probably the same age as me, 50. World at War was so ubiquitous in the mid 1970s. Played over and over. Not just in Britain, but USA, South Africa et al. There was only one "genocide" episode (It didn't mention soap directly but said "utilize the byproducts, dispose of the waste") but every episode evoked the holocaust because there was this heart rending violin song while showing flames, with one of the burning images looking a lot like Anne Frank.

Today it might be compared to a pro-holocaust youtube video with a billion views.

The public wants things to be dramatic but also make sense, so in these shows, you might have a Jew say "they made us go into the gas chamber, telling us it was a shower"; rather than "the sonderkommando Jews made us go into..." In other words the public would rather imagine it as Nazis forcing Jews into gas chambers, and thus sonderkommandos are not often discussed.

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Re: The Sonderkommando problem

Postby Breker » 4 years 8 months ago (Mon Jan 11, 2016 1:16 am)

We feel this award must be a shock to everyone. A "Holocaust" movie winning an award? No chance.
Let's all wonder what the "historical" sources for this one were. Those go unmentioned, of course. Surprised?
Why is it that Auschwitz depictions never really show the gas chambers & crematoriums that are alleged in action?
We submit that they cannot show such things that will be rightly pounced upon by those with the true facts. It must all be fuzzy abstractions, a veritable cartoon of lies, smoke and mirrors.
B.

Hungarian Film about the Holocaust Wins Golden Globe
By: JNi.Media
Published: January 11th, 2016

Image
A scene from "Son of Saul"

"Son of Saul," a 2015 Hungarian film directed by László Nemes and co-written by Nemes and Clara Royer, has won a Golden Globe award Sunday night at the Beverly Hilton. The film is about a Hungarian-Jewish Sonderkommando, burning the dead in Auschwitz, who one day finds the body of a boy he believes is his son.

Nemes told the audience in his acceptance comments, "The Holocaust has become, over the years, an abstraction. For me, it's more of a face, a human face. Let us not forget this face."

Nemes told reporters Sunday, "We see that genocides are still going on, they haven't stopped. I think we have to look into the human soul, and cinema can do that in a very visceral way. I think that's why I wanted to make this film."

Nemes, who is Jewish, told Anthem Magazine last year, in Cannes: "We were tired of the usual representation of the Holocaust. We were just sick of it. We tried to design a story, a film, that doesn’t function the same way and we tried to break away from codes. The film was born out of the frustration and the need to talk about that. Then we came across the material and the Sonderkommando writings that sort of mapped out the inner thinkings of these workers. From that, we got the one-liner for the story out of the blue. This guy finds a body and there’s a moral dilemma: What is he supposed to do? That’s how the project started."

Revisionists are just the messengers, the impossibility of the "Holocaust" narrative is the message.

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Re: The Sonderkommando problem

Postby HeiligeSturm » 4 years 8 months ago (Thu Jan 14, 2016 11:29 am)

NLH wrote:* Sonderkommando: The living dead of Auschwitz National geographic 2009

Was it this documentary where Henryk Mandelbaum claimed that the SS soldiers (or sonderkommandos) were giving
tooth brushes :shock: to fool people into the gas chambers? :lol:
Carol Stulberg: Were you ever in the gas chamber? Did you see the gas chamber?
Morris Venezia: Of course I was every day over there.
Carol Stulberg: Can you describe to us what it looked like?
Morris Venezia: It’s nothing to describe

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Re: The Sonderkommando problem

Postby sweetie pie » 4 years 8 months ago (Thu Jan 14, 2016 8:22 pm)

SamuelGordy wrote: - saying you don't believe in the official version of the holocaost is literally the worst things you can ever say in this world. And it's amazing how, when you (like an experiment) say to people: "I dont believe that slavery in america happened" or "holomodor never happened", nobody blinks an eye.


Yea, that is true. It must be because of the amount of writing, images and constant repetition that the jews manage to throw out there every month. Then there are all the memorial days, plus all the governments enforce it,. And it's taught in the schools. With all this, people think it's the most well-documented event in history (as they always say), so when you bring up what's crazy about it, they shrug it off, or think there must be some explanation for it.

Probably we have to teach people not to trust their governments, school teachers or the media first.

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Re: The Sonderkommando problem

Postby NLH » 4 years 8 months ago (Fri Jan 15, 2016 12:36 am)

HeiligeSturm wrote:
NLH wrote:* Sonderkommando: The living dead of Auschwitz National geographic 2009

Was it this documentary where Henryk Mandelbaum claimed that the SS soldiers (or sonderkommandos) were giving
tooth brushes :shock: to fool people into the gas chambers? :lol:


Lol. Not sure, the only copy of it I can get on youtube and torrent someone has done a voiceover in Polish.
"Believe me, I came into Auschwitz in a much worse condition than I actually left it."
- Kitty Hart-Moxon, Jewish Holocaust Survivor.

June 1998 testimony, USC Shoah Foundation, Visual History Archive.
Part 2 - YouTube - 1:21:42

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Re: The Sonderkommando problem

Postby Esoteric Red » 4 years 7 months ago (Thu Jan 21, 2016 11:34 am)

I feel that the major problem when it comes to the greater holocaust narrative is that the supposed main evidence-displayers, the many "eyewitnesses" that are unbelievably contradictory to one another and claim utter impossibilities, are so often believed without question. It seems most people in western countries, even historians, take these testimonies without further research.
Of course, this is known by everyone on this forum, but personally I believe that by far the biggest problem with the "sonderkommandos" is that they contradict one another, the documentation and other "witnesses" so much that anyone with a rational mind would dismiss their claims and the overall "self evident" assertions that Auschwitz and the 5 other "deathcamps" which contain absurd, extremely inefficient methods of mass killing to be utter fantasies if only this "Gran Tabu", taken from part of the title of the revisionist film premiering at the Corto Creativo 07 film festival, would be open for a bit more public debate.
I feel that the fact that many european countries have assigned intellectual argument to the hefty weight of a prison sentences and imprudent fines to be somewhat unsettling to say the least. Democracies, if you can even call these nations that, shouldn't persecute people on thought crimes!
The "sonderkommandos" and their supporters have no real arguments but name calling, other contradictory and unbelievably ridiculous in many instances "eyewitnesses", modified buildings and a whole lot of uniformed goyim to back "the most researched event" up. If it is so researched and supported by evidence, than why can ANY individual who spends an hour or so glancing over some significant inconsistencies in the main narrative refute the story and realize that it's false?
I have done research on other "alternate" topics for a few years now, but I am glad that I stumbled across the documentary "ONE THIRD of the HOLOCAUST", originally from www.onethirdoftheholocaust.com, about a year back. It lead me down a path which I am very glad to have stumbled down, but I didn't discover this website till about 3 months back. The community here might be relatively small but it is full of plenty of intriguing and researching individuals. I have done reading and further research based on CODOH and holocausthandbooks (currently reading the massive joint effort by Carlos Mattagno, Jurgen Graf and Thomas Kues "The 'Extermination Camps' of 'Aktion Reinhardt'") and am excited to make more contributions to the revisionist community other than detailed comments on Youtube.

Mention on CODOH about Corto Creativo 07:
http://codoh.com/library/document/627/
European Union law against racism and xenophobia:
http://eu-un.europa.eu/articles/fr/article_6960_fr.htm
"ONE THIRD of the HOLOCAUST" on Youtube:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7dxsVSzL4HE
"The 'Extermination Camps' of 'Aktion Reinhardt'" by Carlos Mattagno, Jurgen Graf and Thomas Kues on HolocaustHandbooks in PDF format:
http://holocausthandbooks.com/dl/28-tecoar.pdf

"The greatest truths often lay in the rarely visited shadows"-me

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Re: The Sonderkommando problem

Postby HeiligeSturm » 3 years 11 months ago (Thu Oct 06, 2016 6:35 pm)

This was quite interesting to find as I was searching for information about Dario Gabbai's brother Jakob Gabbai.
I found Yaakov Gabai with very similar story what Dario told in 1999:
(Both are from Greece.)

"Among the thousands of prisoners they helped herd into the Birkenau gas chambers were two Greek friends. Gabbai said,
We told them they were going to die.
We told them where to go to die fast, where the gas was coming down. "
Dario Gabbai
Bearing Witness - Page 2 - latimes
http://articles.latimes.com/1999/oct/20/news/cl-24100/2

"...two of my cousins were among 400 Musselmen processed that day.
I told them the truth, and told them where to be in the gas chamber
so they would die immediately without suffering."
Yaakov Gabai
A Damaged Mirror: A story of memory and redemption (Google Books)

I wonder if this is just a repetition of the same story with some changes in numbers and victims.
Could these two "sonderkommandos" be also related? Yaakov and Jakob are basically the same and Gabai is one b short of Gabbai.
Dario allegedly worked with his brother Jakob like his cousins Morris (Maurice) and Shlomo Venezia also used to work together.
Carol Stulberg: Were you ever in the gas chamber? Did you see the gas chamber?
Morris Venezia: Of course I was every day over there.
Carol Stulberg: Can you describe to us what it looked like?
Morris Venezia: It’s nothing to describe

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Re: The Sonderkommando problem

Postby Hieldner » 3 years 11 months ago (Fri Oct 07, 2016 2:30 am)

Just recently stumbled upon this in the Yad Vashem photo archive:
Chelmno, Poland, Members of a Sonderkommando unit playing music.
Image
http://collections1.yadvashem.org/noteb ... site=sapir

I haven’t read much about Chelmno yet. Does official historiography say these were inmates / Jews? Anyway, the unscrupulous Nazi Germans purposefully gave this Sonderkommando cigarettes and possibly alcohol to negatively affect its members’ health, so it looks like they wanted to exterminate them in the (very) long term.
»[Holocaust soap] odor, if captured and retained… would preserve the core of an individual soul… The undesirable smell of the extract spoke of the spectral Derridian trace… that continued to remind its consumers of their own bio-ontology.«—B. Shallcross

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Re: The Sonderkommando problem

Postby HeiligeSturm » 3 years 11 months ago (Fri Oct 07, 2016 4:27 am)

Hieldner wrote:Just recently stumbled upon this in the Yad Vashem photo archive:
Chelmno, Poland, Members of a Sonderkommando unit playing music.
Image
http://collections1.yadvashem.org/noteb ... site=sapir

I haven’t read much about Chelmno yet. Does official historiography say these were inmates / Jews? Anyway, the unscrupulous Nazi Germans purposefully gave this Sonderkommando cigarettes and possibly alcohol to negatively affect its members’ health, so it looks like they wanted to exterminate them in the (very) long term.

Chelmno was alleged death camp, often mentioned as "the forgotten camp" of extermination process.
It was also the place where the "gas vans" were found. Every source I have found about Chelmno Sonderkommando states that they
were - surprise, surprise - Jewish.
As the story goes, Sonderkommando were allowed some special privileges, like more food, better clothes, cigarettes and occasionally alcohol.
Of course the evil Germans would purposefully give cigarettes to Jewish Sonderkommando, as cigarettes contain carbon monoxide :shock:.
Carol Stulberg: Were you ever in the gas chamber? Did you see the gas chamber?
Morris Venezia: Of course I was every day over there.
Carol Stulberg: Can you describe to us what it looked like?
Morris Venezia: It’s nothing to describe

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Re: The Sonderkommando problem

Postby Inquisitor » 3 years 11 months ago (Fri Oct 07, 2016 4:44 am)

Hieldner wrote:Just recently stumbled upon this in the Yad Vashem photo archive:
Chelmno, Poland, Members of a Sonderkommando unit playing music.
Image
http://collections1.yadvashem.org/noteb ... site=sapir

I haven’t read much about Chelmno yet. Does official historiography say these were inmates / Jews? Anyway, the unscrupulous Nazi Germans purposefully gave this Sonderkommando cigarettes and possibly alcohol to negatively affect its members’ health, so it looks like they wanted to exterminate them in the (very) long term.


This was covered by Mattogno in book form: http://holocausthandbooks.com/index.php?page_id=23

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Re: The Sonderkommando problem

Postby borjastick » 3 years 11 months ago (Fri Oct 07, 2016 6:14 am)

HeiligeSturm wrote:
Hieldner wrote:Just recently stumbled upon this in the Yad Vashem photo archive:
Chelmno, Poland, Members of a Sonderkommando unit playing music.
Image
http://collections1.yadvashem.org/noteb ... site=sapir

I haven’t read much about Chelmno yet. Does official historiography say these were inmates / Jews? Anyway, the unscrupulous Nazi Germans purposefully gave this Sonderkommando cigarettes and possibly alcohol to negatively affect its members’ health, so it looks like they wanted to exterminate them in the (very) long term.

Chelmno was alleged death camp, often mentioned as "the forgotten camp" of extermination process.
It was also the place where the "gas vans" were found. Every source I have found about Chelmno Sonderkommando states that they
were - surprise, surprise - Jewish.
As the story goes, Sonderkommando were allowed some special privileges, like more food, better clothes, cigarettes and occasionally alcohol.
Of course the evil Germans would purposefully give cigarettes to Jewish Sonderkommando, as cigarettes contain carbon monoxide :shock:.


So if they weren't doing the work we are told they did, what were they there for if indeed they did anything? Perhaps they were simply ground handling agents in the transit camps and a kind of Police service to keep the peace in native tongue.

What do people think?
'Of the four million Jews under Nazi control in WW2, six million died and alas only five million survived.'

'We don't need evidence, we have survivors' - israeli politician

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Re: The Sonderkommando problem

Postby HeiligeSturm » 3 years 11 months ago (Sat Oct 15, 2016 1:02 pm)

There is truly much interesting things to investigate regarding sonderkommandos.
Their working time for example as we are told they were killed periodically.
But still some managed to work very long and even in several places.
Here's a little list I gathered:

Filip Müller, Slovak, three years, Auschwitz & Birkenau, Krema I, Krema III, Krema V, evacuated on death march

David Olère, Polish-born French, two years, Bunker 2 and later in Krema III, evacuated on death march

Dario Gabbai, Greek, nine months or eight and a half months, Krema II at Birkenau, evacuated on death march
Jakob Gabbai, Greek, same time and working place with his brother Dario?

Shlomo Venezia, Greek, eight months* or six months** at Birkenau
*His book **Wikipedia
Maurice Venezia (later Morris Venezia), Greek, Birkenau, also 8 or 6 months like his brother Shlomo?

Henryk Mandelbaum, Polish, Birkenau, Krema II? and burning pits, evacuated on death march where he escaped wearing civilian clothes. (Wikipedia)

Henryk (Tauber) Fuchsbrunner aka Henry Fuchs, Polish, about two years, Birkenau, Krematoria II & Krematoria IV, escaped during a death march

Szlama Dragon (Shlomo Dragon), Birkenau, Bunker I or II, escaped during a death march
Abraham Dragon, Birkenau, Bunker I or II, escaped during a death march

So, there was some brothers working together and they survived the ordeal and even the death marches.
Some friends like Tauber and Dragon managed to escape together during the marches.

About that periodical killing of sonderkommandos with some emphasis added:

"They used to change the Sonderkommandos every six months because we knew how the final solution was done."
-Dario Gabbai, 1999
http://articles.latimes.com/1999/oct/20/news/cl-24100

"Members of the Sonderkommando who worked in the gas chambers and crematoria were murdered after a few months and replaced with others forced to carry out the Nazis evil crimes..."
http://www.holocaustresearchproject.org ... hlomo.html

"Most Sonderkommando members were systematically killed by the SS. But fate allowed Shlomo Venezia to survive, and the horrific privilege to bear witness."
- History Wire
https://www.amazon.com/Inside-Gas-Chamb ... 0745643841

But still there was these sonderkommandos working much longer than few months and were evacuated with others on so called death marches.
Some had the possibility to even change their working place like Müller from camp to camp. Probably a good worker, even though he tried go into the gas chamber himself.
The always efficient SS was apparently doing very sloppy job by not identifying the crematorium workers, not killing them and even letting them to escape from the marches.
Carol Stulberg: Were you ever in the gas chamber? Did you see the gas chamber?
Morris Venezia: Of course I was every day over there.
Carol Stulberg: Can you describe to us what it looked like?
Morris Venezia: It’s nothing to describe


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