Aktion 1005 and Mattogno's alleged lies

[Werd]

If I'm reading Werd right, I think he generally agrees with the revisionist view. He seems to be asking the more narrow question of whether it's true that "the designation 'Sonderkommando 1005' was invented by the Soviets." In terms of the Holocaust debate, I don't think the issue raised is of any real importance.

Well it's a faux paux that Mattogno admitted to making in his new Einsatzgruppen book (page 421, footnote 427). The one book whose errors I tried to discuss on this board before only to be deleted.

That is to say, the important question is: did the Germans really go back and dig up something like 2,000,000+ bodies buried all over Eastern Europe and burn them? No. Because that's completely ridiculous. Do the documents cited by Romanov prove that the Germans dug up and burned 2,000,000 bodies? No, they don't.

What Mattogno does in the second part of his Einsatzgruppen book is go through lists of the sizes and numbers of bodies contained in graves that the Soviet Commission for Investigation of Fascist Crimes found. He for example finds claims of many graves holding "thousands of bodies" but the photographs only show like a dozen.

Romanov himself actually admits that the issue is not very important. "...even seen from the "revisionist" perspective, there was no need whatsoever to state positively that the designation "1005" was a Soviet fabrication. Mere expression of doubt, or re-interpretation of the designation would have been more than enough."

Mattogno in his Einsatzgruppen book admits that there was an Aktion 1005 and it WAS in relation to digging up graves. But not for the obliteration of evidence of crimes. Rather for hygienic purposes. Start reading at page 417 in the paperback. It starts to get really good on page 421.
http://www.holocausthandbooks.com/index.php?page_id=39
Hell, Mattogno even says there was death at Babi Yar, but it was not to the tune of 30,000. Only 3,000 at most (page 539, paperback).

All Clay has demonstrated is that he hasn't read Mattogno's books. And if Clay is going to dispute that any actual graves were found in Busk for example by P. Debois, then he's out to lunch.

[Hannover]

Werd:

Hell, Mattogno even says there was death at Babi Yar, but it was not to the tune of 30,000. Only 3,000 at most (page 539, paperback).

All Clay has demonstrated is that he hasn't read Mattogno's books. And if Clay is going to dispute that any actual graves were found in Busk for example by P. Debois, then he's out to lunch.
http://www.whale.to/b/mind_control.html
Top

Yet NO , as in ZERO, human remains were found at Babi Yar by an israeli team.
And note that Mattogno nor Werd can show us these claimed "3,000, at most".
It appears that it is Werd who is "out to lunch"

- !! Excavation Result: No Human Remains of alleged 34,000 Jews as claimed at Babi Yar !! In fact, no remains period.': viewtopic.php?f=2&t=11314

- 79th anniversary of 'Babi Yar Massacre' Fraud.
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=13562

Babi Yar: The [alleged] Einsatzgruppen 'Killings': https://www.unz.com/article/babi-yar/

- Hannover

[Archie]

If I'm reading Werd right, I think he generally agrees with the revisionist view. He seems to be asking the more narrow question of whether it's true that "the designation 'Sonderkommando 1005' was invented by the Soviets." In terms of the Holocaust debate, I don't think the issue raised is of any real importance.

Well it's a faux paux that Mattogno admitted to making in his new Einsatzgruppen book (page 421, footnote 427). The one book whose errors I tried to discuss on this board before only to be deleted.

That is to say, the important question is: did the Germans really go back and dig up something like 2,000,000+ bodies buried all over Eastern Europe and burn them? No. Because that's completely ridiculous. Do the documents cited by Romanov prove that the Germans dug up and burned 2,000,000 bodies? No, they don't.

What Mattogno does in the second part of his Einsatzgruppen book is go through lists of the sizes and numbers of bodies contained in graves that the Soviet Commission for Investigation of Fascist Crimes found. He for example finds claims of many graves holding "thousands of bodies" but the photographs only show like a dozen.

Romanov himself actually admits that the issue is not very important. "...even seen from the "revisionist" perspective, there was no need whatsoever to state positively that the designation "1005" was a Soviet fabrication. Mere expression of doubt, or re-interpretation of the designation would have been more than enough."

Mattogno in his Einsatzgruppen book admits that there was an Aktion 1005 and it WAS in relation to digging up graves. But not for the obliteration of evidence of crimes. Rather for hygienic purposes. Start reading at page 417 in the paperback. It starts to get really good on page 421.
http://www.holocausthandbooks.com/index.php?page_id=39
Hell, Mattogno even says there was death at Babi Yar, but it was not to the tune of 30,000. Only 3,000 at most (page 539, paperback).

All Clay has demonstrated is that he hasn't read Mattogno's books. And if Clay is going to dispute that any actual graves were found in Busk for example by P. Debois, then he's out to lunch.

Thanks for the reference. The Treblinka book was written a while ago (2002, updated 2005) and the publisher's note says they are planning on overhauling it completely so that's probably why they haven't bothered correcting that particular sentence. Still, I think it is a rather minor point and Mattogno's instincts were fundamentally correct all along. The whole Germans-destroyed-all-the-evidence meme is indeed Soviet propaganda. Only by accident do these lies occasionally correspond to reality.

Best I can tell, the Germans found the mass graves at Katyn in April 1943. After that debacle the Soviets desperately wanted to find evidence of German atrocities. But they didn't find anything on par with Katyn so that's when they started peddling the lame excuse about the Germans erasing all the evidence. It's honestly one of the dumbest and most ridiculous parts of the entire orthodox narrative. Especially on the scale that's alleged.

Consider this October 1943 account of Babi Yar. This would be a few months after Katyn was uncovered. The Soviets were already pushing the meme at this point.
"50,000 Kiev Jews Reported Killed," NYT, 29 Nov 1941, pg 3 (delayed report from Oct 22)

Kiev authorities asserted today that the Germans had machine-gunned from 50,000 to 80,000 of Kiev's Jewish men, women and children in late September, 1941 and, two years later--when Kiev's recapture by the Red Army seemed imminent--had forced Russian prisoners of war to burn all the bodies, completely destroying all the evidence of the crime.

This was the story told to the Kiev Atrocity Commission and to a group of British, American and Russian newspaper correspondents after having visited bleak Babi Yar, a deep ravine northwest of Kiev, where the massacre was alleged to have occurred.
[...]
On the basis of what we saw, it is impossible for this correspondent to judge the truth or falsity of the story told to us. It is the contention of the authorities in Kiev that the Germans, with characteristic thoroughness, not only burned the bodies and clothing, but also crumbled the bones, and shot and burned the bodies of all prisoners of war participating in the burning, except for a handful that escaped, so that the evidence of their atrocity could not be available for the outside world.

If this was the Germans' intent, they succeeded well, for there is little evidence in the ravine to prove or disprove the story.

Note that the correspondent is openly skeptical of this preposterous story.

Now, did the Soviets have any special intel at this point in 1943 about "Aktion 1005"? Or is this just a pathetic story to explain away the lack of mass graves? What seems to have happened is that only later did they relate "Aktion 1005" to the preexisting propaganda.

[Lamprecht]

If I'm reading Werd right, I think he generally agrees with the revisionist view.

Werd:

Well nobody denies graves were opened.

It appears that Werd not only believes that "graves were opened." but he claims that "nobody denies" it.

Which begs the questions:

Werd, what graves are you talking about exactly? Where? When? How? How many?

What happened to the bodies when the "graves were opened"?

I was working on a thread for Treblinka that has this information, and all the photos I could find of claimed mass graves at the site. I never finished it and saved it as a draft. I might get around to posting it this week.

[Clay]

All Clay has demonstrated is that he hasn't read Mattogno's books.

What I've demonstrated is that you have dodged the following questions:

Well nobody denies graves were opened.

What graves Werd?

Werd, what graves are you talking about exactly? Where? When? How? How many?

What happened to the bodies when the "graves were opened"?

[Clay]

if Clay is going to dispute that any actual graves were found in Busk for example by P. Debois, then he's out to lunch.

Werd, when you alleged that "nobody denies graves were opened" you were referring to Aktion 1005, were you not?

If you would like to discuss Patrick Debois and any graves found at Busk, I would be more than happy to discuss them with you in an appropriate thread.


Edited to add:

Werd, can you identify one grave that was opened by Aktion 1005 - yes or no?

[Clay]

It appears that it is Werd who is "out to lunch"

Indeed.

I look forward to discussing P. Debois and Busk with Werd at a later date.

[HMSendeavour]

What was Mattogno's evidence that there were 3,000 dead Jews at Babi Yar?

On page 539 Mattogno says:

But there is another problem. On the first day, the shootings stopped at 5 or 6 PM. If half the Jews who appeared in response to the German proclamation had been killed, 16,800 more Jews were still alive; where did they spend the night? What was done with them? How were they prevented from escaping? And can one believe that, after listening to rifle fire all day (more than 16,800 shots), such a mass of people would continue to await death patiently without reacting? Without rebelling? Without any attempt to escape en masse? Like sheep to the slaughter?

In conclusion, there was no doubt an execution of Jews at Babi Yar, but all the physical evidence leads to the conclusion that its order of magnitude was maybe a tenth of that asserted.

Carlo Mattogno, The Einsatzgruppen in the Occupied Eastern Territories: Genesis, Missions and Actions (Castle Hill Publishers, December 2018), Pp. 539

No source, but that's fine. I'll look earlier in the chapter to see if I can find out where this number comes from.

Mattogno talks about photographs taken by Johannes Hähle, which you can see in the appendix of the book.

The shootings at Babi Yar were photographed, in their preliminary and final phases, between 29 September and 1 October 1941, apparently by Johannes Hähle, military photographer from the 637th Propaganda Company of the Sixth Army. There are at least four series of photographs which show groups of persons walking.

1) At least three photographs taken by Hähle depict the passage of a long column of persons marching along a long platform. In front, seen from the side, is a body (see Document II.4.14.).

The second photograph shows the same column, seen from the right;517 in the third photograph, the column is further away.518 These three photographs were published by Klee and Dreßen, but printed in reverse, that is, the right side on the left and vice versa, and with erroneous captions (Klee/Dreßen, pp. 101, 104f.). The photograph reproduced as Document II.4.14 in the Appendix of this study has been given the following caption by Klee/Dreßen: “In a Soviet city (Lubny?): Jews on their way to the collection point and to their execution. They have to walk past corpses lying around on the ground” (ibid., p. 101).

2) Two photographs, also by Hähle, showing a group of persons; the group is numerically considerable but certainly not large (see Document II.4.15.). The second photograph is a close-up image.519

3) A group of approximately 60 men marching in formation, four abreast, along a road escorted by four German soldiers (see Document II.4.16.).

4) Another photograph shows a group of 50-60 women with purses and bundles along a country road in a disorderly column (see Document II.4.17.). This series of photographs shows at most one hundred persons, very far from the figure of over 33,000.

Since the persons depicted walk in a rather sparse column of three to four persons, or a front of approximately three meters with at most two persons per square meter, therefore six persons per linear meter of column, the presumed 33,771 persons shot would have formed a column (33,771 ÷ 6 =) over 5,600 meters long!

Carlo Mattogno, The Einsatzgruppen in the Occupied Eastern Territories: Genesis, Missions and Actions (Castle Hill Publishers, December 2018), Pp. 534-535

These are the photographs:

What's going on here, I think, is that Mattogno is looking at these photographs and deducing from them that the number of people here cannot be 33,000. Therefore, the number of people killed at Babi-Yar must have been a tenth of 33,000.

[Hannover]

Those faked / miscaptioned photos are laughable.

Were supposed to believe that an allegedly top secret action was photographed and the photos were then distributed around.
We're supposed to believe that the German's would allow spectators to hang out,
There is no proof that these were even of Babi Yar, no proof of date, no provenance whatsoever.
You gotta love the piles of clothes that are suppose to represent corpses.
Allegedly machine gunned corpses .... without blood.

For more examples of fakes see:
Debunking Pictures? / Babi Yar?
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=13591

- Hannover

[borjastick]

Is there a credible explanation for the photos above? Clearly it isn't a scene of mass murder. Anyone who claims it is needs a new pair of specs. A few dozen people in a sand pit/quarry rummaging among some old clothes. Not sure what is happening here or what may have happened in the previous days.

[HMSendeavour]

As far as I know, Mattogno hasn't noted the existence of physical remains. I don't know why he's attempting to give this point any credence at all when it deserves nothing but suspicion until proven otherwise. Even if you just read the description of his Einsatzgruppen book, Rudolf's preface, the introduction etc. you get the feeling that this isn't as forcefully revisionist as many of the other books are.

That's just my feeling anyway. Mattogno is a lot less willing to make solid claims about the Einsatzgruppen.

Anyway, I'm hesitant to just dismiss Mattogno. I would recommend everyone read this part of Mattogno's book themselves to see if any other evidence he presents can convince you that he has proper grounds to make these deductions.

See pages 534-539 http://holocausthandbooks.com/dl/39-te.pdf

Follow the links in the images of the pictures, perhaps that will help....But I doubt it. We already know who is claimed to have taken the photographs. Sounds like we need to know more about that guy and the story of the photos themselves.

[Clay]

Werd:

Well nobody denies graves were opened.

It appears that Werd not only believes that "graves were opened." but he claims that "nobody denies" it.

Which begs the questions:

Werd, what graves are you talking about exactly? Where? When? How? How many?

What happened to the bodies when the "graves were opened"?

I was working on a thread for Treblinka that has this information, and all the photos I could find of claimed mass graves at the site. I never finished it and saved it as a draft. I might get around to posting it this week.

Sounds interesting. I'll be looking for it. Thanks in advance.

[Clay]

Werd:

I'm not doing this dance anymore and you're not running this thread off topic.

You're not dancing Werd, you're dodging.

No 'dodging'. When questioned or challenged on your statements, claims, or assertions, you must respond or leave the topic.

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=358

I'm questioning and challenging you on your statements, claims and assertions made in this this thread by you Werd.


Werd:

nobody denies graves were opened... they were dug up and destroyed

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=10120#p76298

What graves Werd? Can you show us one mass grave that was opened by this alleged "Aktion 1005" group?

The graves were "destroyted"? Can you tell us exactly how the alleged mass graves were destroyed Werd?


Werd:

Stop trying to complicate things.

I'm not trying to complicate things Werd.

What makes you think that you can make statements, claims, or assertions on this forum and not be challenged on them?

Are you special? Did you write yourself a free pass?

i see that this Werd character has a history of dodging questions and lame attempts at obfuscation.

Are you ready for that discussion about Patrick Debois and those graves he opened at Busk?

Just say the word and I'll start a new thread. (You're not afraid, are you Werd?)

[Clay]

I guess I'm not surprised that Werd ran away when challenged to prove these unsubstantiated allegations:

I would say that Romanov may be correct on this one

I bet Belzec and Treblinka had at least a few mass graves

the remains of thousands of Jews exist in each of the Aktion Reinhardt camps

nobody denies graves were opened

they were dug up and destroyed

Werd, even though you cannot deny something that doesn't exist or never happened - I "deny" your unsubstantiated allegations.

But I do have an open mind and I'm not afraid of accepting or acknowledging the truth.

It's just that I am not a gullible true-believer like you.

You could say I'm a skeptic - I need to see proof of something BEFORE I believe it.

Especially something that could be scientifically proven as easily as the "huge mass graves" canard.

Come on Werd, at least TRY to prove your unsubstantiated allegations.

And at least answer this one simple question that you've been dodging:

Can you show us just one mass grave that was opened by this alleged "Aktion 1005" group?

Werd, would you like to comment on why you refused to answer the above simple question?

[Clay]

Morrison:

What graves Werd? Can you show us one mass grave that was opened by this alleged "Aktion 1005" group?

Werd:

Nope.

Werd:

And if Clay is going to dispute that any actual graves were found in Busk for example by P. Debois, then he's out to lunch.

Werd, why did you even bring up Busk if you had already admitted that you could not "show us one mass grave that was opened by this alleged "Aktion 1005" group?"

Are you saying you can prove a grave was opened even without being able to "show us one mass grave that was opened by this alleged "Aktion 1005" group?"