Aktion 1005 and Mattogno's alleged lies

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Clay
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Re: Aktion 1005 and Mattogno's alleged lies

Postby Clay » 2 weeks 5 days ago (Sun Nov 08, 2020 11:46 pm)

Morrison wrote:Werd, if Belzec and Treblinka "had at least a few mas graves," would it be possible for archaeologists to locate them still today?

If the barrier was removed from Belzec in 2016, who knows? If we believe Kola's report on Belzec from the late 90's, then some mass graves were found. But all he gave was pencil drawings. Is that really the only way his core samples were documented from Belzec? The highest order of documentation of removal of contents, contents themselves, and lab testing for contents is necessary. Video, photography and lab tests. One should also mark the site permanently to show where they took samples. You also should not put back the core samples you took. You ruin the stratigraphy that was there before you basically ruined it...

Werd, Morrison asked a very simple yes or no question, but I do not see a yes or a no for an answer from you. Was the above evasive response a yes or a no?

Also, could you tell us more about the "stratigraphy" of a pit that is filled with human corpses and how it gets "ruined" by taking core samples? (That sounds very interesting.)

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Re: Aktion 1005 and Mattogno's alleged lies

Postby Werd » 2 weeks 3 days ago (Tue Nov 10, 2020 6:40 pm)

Clay wrote:
Werd wrote:if Clay is going to dispute that any actual graves were found in Busk for example by P. Debois, then he's out to lunch.


Werd, when you alleged that "nobody denies graves were opened" you were referring to Aktion 1005, were you not?

Yep. Such as Busk.

If you would like to discuss Patrick Debois and any graves found at Busk, I would be more than happy to discuss them with you in an appropriate thread.

There is nothing to discuss about Busk. Nor Debois. We all know he has claimed many many other graves exist that have not been opened but he still demands we believe him anyway!

Werd, can you identify one grave that was opened by Aktion 1005 - yes or no?

Um, Mattogno HIMSELF provides SOURCES that a 1005 group ACTUALLY EXISTED. Go and read those pages in the paperback book that I mentioned. Otherwise, take a hike. And then take it up with him and/or Rudolf, who published Mattogno's book.

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Re: Aktion 1005 and Mattogno's alleged lies

Postby Werd » 2 weeks 3 days ago (Tue Nov 10, 2020 6:43 pm)

Clay wrote:
You also should not put back the core samples you took. You ruin the stratigraphy that was there before you basically ruined it...

Also, could you tell us more about the "stratigraphy" of a pit that is filled with human corpses and how it gets "ruined" by taking core samples? (That sounds very interesting.)

That's not what I said. READ IT AGAIN!

You also should not put back the core samples you took.

Taking core samples in and of itself is not a problem. Putting them back DESTROYS the natural stratigraphy of the site. If you can't understand this basic concept about not tainting an archaeological site, I can't help you. You're just that ignorant. :roll:

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Re: Aktion 1005 and Mattogno's alleged lies

Postby Moderator » 2 weeks 3 days ago (Tue Nov 10, 2020 7:30 pm)

Werd:
You were asked about huge mass graves that you claim exist.
i.e.:
You were asked to 'show them to this forum'? You were asked to 'tell us when they were opened? You were asked 'how many corpses do they allegedly contain'? You were asked 'what happened to the bodies that you claim exist'.

Please answer these basic challenges. There is no dodging at this Forum.

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Re: Aktion 1005 and Mattogno's alleged lies

Postby Clay » 2 weeks 3 days ago (Wed Nov 11, 2020 12:24 am)

Werd wrote:
Clay wrote:
You also should not put back the core samples you took. You ruin the stratigraphy that was there before you basically ruined it...

Also, could you tell us more about the "stratigraphy" of a pit that is filled with human corpses and how it gets "ruined" by taking core samples? (That sounds very interesting.)

That's not what I said. READ IT AGAIN!

You also should not put back the core samples you took.

Taking core samples in and of itself is not a problem. Putting them back DESTROYS the natural stratigraphy of the site. If you can't understand this basic concept about not tainting an archaeological site, I can't help you. You're just that ignorant. :roll:


Werd, please show us a photograph where the stratigraphy in a mass grave filled with corpses killed by Aktion 1005 can be seen.
Last edited by Clay on Wed Nov 11, 2020 12:40 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Aktion 1005 and Mattogno's alleged lies

Postby Clay » 2 weeks 3 days ago (Wed Nov 11, 2020 12:26 am)

Werd, when you alleged that "nobody denies graves were opened" you were referring to Aktion 1005, were you not?

Yep. Such as Busk.


Werd, can you identify one grave that was opened by Aktion 1005 - yes or no?

Um, Mattogno HIMSELF provides SOURCES that a 1005 group ACTUALLY EXISTED. Go and read those pages in the paperback book that I mentioned. Otherwise, take a hike. And then take it up with him and/or Rudolf, who published Mattogno's book.


Werd, can you identify one grave that was opened by Aktion 1005 - yes or no?

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Re: Aktion 1005 and Mattogno's alleged lies

Postby Clay » 2 weeks 14 hours ago (Fri Nov 13, 2020 10:57 pm)

Werd wrote:
Clay wrote:
Werd wrote:if Clay is going to dispute that any actual graves were found in Busk for example by P. Debois, then he's out to lunch.


Werd, when you alleged that "nobody denies graves were opened" you were referring to Aktion 1005, were you not?

Yep. Such as Busk.


Werd, are you alleging that the graves at Busk are filled with victims of Aktion 1005?

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Re: Aktion 1005 and Mattogno's alleged lies

Postby Werd » 1 week 3 days ago (Tue Nov 17, 2020 10:52 pm)

Clay wrote:Werd, please show us a photograph where the stratigraphy in a mass grave filled with corpses killed by Aktion 1005 can be seen.

Aktion 1005 was not an alleged order to kill Jews. Please get that straight. It was an alleged order to exhume corpses, destroy them and erase any traces of mass graves.

Now if you're asking for examples of mass graves with corpses in it with likely victims of Nazi aggression, sure, I can point to some. I already have on this board before. I'm sticking with the photos from Barvenko I made in a post years ago on codoh, the photos from Kerch in Mattogno's book and the photos in Debois' book. Let's discuss them below...

Kerch and Barvenkovo
viewtopic.php?p=72255#p72255

Those were mainly photos of Barvenko. If you want to see photos of Kerch, please consult paperback 673-678 in Mattogno's Einsatzgruppen book free online for a discussion. The actual photos of corpses at Kerch are on pages 778-782 in Mattogno's book in the "Documents" section. I'll reproduce them here.


Image
Image
Image
Image
Image

Now if you want to talk about Busk, one of the graves uncovered by Debois, I have discussed it on this board before. Mattogno wrote an article about Busk and he reproduced some photos from the work of Debois. I shall do the same here.

Image
Image

Mattogno does not contest bodies were in there. He contests HOW MANY.
Another image (Fig. 2), taken from ground level, shows the skeletons in a mass grave.[48] This grave is bigger, with an estimated surface area of approximately 40 square meters. Another photograph depicts Desbois on the edge of this grave.[49]

Fig. 2: Skeletons in a mass grave.

The skeletons are not piled up on top of each other, but rather, randomly dispersed; assuming a density of 4 skeletons every 3 square meters, the 15 mass graves would only have contained 400 bodies in total. If the graves contained 1,750 each, as claimed by Desbois, this would mean that every grave contained 4 layers of bodies. But since they were not permitted to move the bodies, Desbois and his archaeologists had no way of knowing what lay beneath the layer or skeletons they were looking at. So how did they arrive at the figure of 1,750 skeletons?

The answer probably lies in the fact that, as stressed by Prof. Edouard Husson, the above-mentioned investigation

succeeded in confirming the testimony of the witnesses and the investigation of the 1944-45 Soviet Commission regarding the massacre of the last 1,700 Jews.[50]

A “confirmation" discredited in advance.

Now some would contest that these may even be victims of Nazi aggression. I must admit this. Robert Faurisson made a point years ago about the shell casings. They were apparently from German guns. Um, if that's true, then why could the Soviets not have used German guns since Soviets often regained plenty of territory that the Germans took? You don't think Soviets would take German guns and shoot Ukranians or Poles for example? But then we have to go back to eyewitnesses talking about who shot who at Busk. And all of them implicate Germans as the shooters.

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Re: Aktion 1005 and Mattogno's alleged lies

Postby Hannover » 1 week 3 days ago (Wed Nov 18, 2020 12:41 am)

Werd:

You seem confused and your arguments in this thread change frequently.

Some points about your "photos" that you just posted above:

They simply don't pass the smell test and would never hold up in a legit court of law.
In fact they have never been submitted in any court of law.

Where is the proof that these people were murdered by the Germans?

Where is the proof that they were even Jews?

There's nothing to even prove the time period alleged.

Do you expect anyone to just believe captions on these absurd images of that are of Soviet communist origins?

What we really see are either numerous laughable drawings, piles of what looks like clothing meant to resemble bodies, and fraudulent captions.
i.e.:
Image
Laughably fake as can be

Some photos look amateurishly cut & pasted, and a few graves with no remains are shown, which contradict the narrative you're trying to defend.
The bottom one here has also been claimed to be Babi Yar. LOL
Image

Image
Above we see a photo of a relatively small number of human remains vs. the huge numbers alleged, where no provenance exists.
The remains could just as well be battle fatalities, or victims of the notorious Soviet NKVD.
There's no proof that the remains are of Jews.
There's no proof that the remains are of the alleged period.
All of which contradicts the narrative you're trying to defend, the narrative that is promoted 24/7/365.

Is this your best shot in attempting to back up your allegations of enormous Einsatzgruppen mass murders, where the allegation is that about 2,000,000 Jews were shot and that the alleged truly massive human remains are in supposedly known locations?

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Re: Aktion 1005 and Mattogno's alleged lies

Postby Werd » 1 week 3 days ago (Wed Nov 18, 2020 1:23 am)

Hannover wrote:
What we really see are either numerous laughable drawings, piles of what looks like clothing meant to resemble bodies, and fraudulent captions.
i.e.:

The pencil drawing shown on page 780 in Mattogno, faithfully corresponds to an actual photo on page 781.

Re: Barvenkovo photos. It was known that the Nazis occupied that area.

Re: Kerch photos.
Those are obviously real photos. I.E. page 779 in Mattogno.

Re: Bush photos.
Again, those are real corpses.

All you have for each one is to say that we don't know for sure those were victims of German aggression. Okay. Maybe. That's predictable. What I'm saying is that the wild figures claimed by the Soviet Commissions are betrayed by what is photographed. A very small number. In other words, the six million number is nonsense!

There's a couple more examples of photos of graves Mattogno has in the back of his book. I'll put those up soon...

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Re: Aktion 1005 and Mattogno's alleged lies

Postby Hannover » 1 week 3 days ago (Wed Nov 18, 2020 1:38 am)

Werd, you are not answering my challenges about the "photos".

you said:
"The pencil drawing shown on page 780 in Mattogno, faithfully corresponds to an actual photo on page 781.

So what? That means nothing, is irrelevant, and it does not answer my challenges. Should I repeat them?

you said:
Re: Barvenkovo photos. It was known that the Nazis occupied that area.
So what? That means nothing. It does not answer my challenges. Should I repeat them?
BTW, the Germans were all over Europe & N. Africa. So what?

you said:
Re: Kerch photos.
Those are obviously real photos. I.E. page 779 in Mattogno.
Re: Bush photos.
Again, those are real corpses
You think these are real "corpses?
ImageImage
LOL

But again, so what? Why do you dodge my questions? Should I repeat them?

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Re: Aktion 1005 and Mattogno's alleged lies

Postby Clay » 1 week 2 days ago (Wed Nov 18, 2020 3:52 pm)

Hannover wrote:Werd:

You seem confused and your arguments in this thread change frequently.

...

- Hannover


That's because he refuses to answer simple questions that would clarify his position. He's being a weasel. Look at how many times he refused to answer Morrison's questions before he was finally forced to answer this:

Morrison:

What graves Werd? Can you show us one mass grave that was opened by this alleged "Aktion 1005" group?


Werd:

Nope.



Now he's giving us this:

Clay wrote:
Werd, when you alleged that "nobody denies graves were opened" you were referring to Aktion 1005, were you not?



Werd:

Yep. Such as Busk
.


Then he simply refuses to answer this:

Werd, can you identify one grave that was opened by Aktion 1005 - yes or no?


But he does give us this:

Now if you want to talk about Busk...


That all depends on your answer to the following Werd:

Werd, can you identify one grave that was opened by Aktion 1005 - yes or no?

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Re: Aktion 1005 and Mattogno's alleged lies

Postby Clay » 1 week 2 days ago (Wed Nov 18, 2020 4:08 pm)

Hannover wrote:Werd, you are not answering my challenges... That means nothing. It does not answer my challenges. Should I repeat them? ...But again, so what? Why do you dodge my questions? Should I repeat them?

- Hannover


I think Morrison had to ask Werd one question 9 times before Werd finally answered it. (And the Moderator admonished Werd a number of times during that time to answer as well.)

Why does Werd constantly dodge questions and provide evasive mealy-mouthed responses rather than simply engage in an open and honest debate? Why won't he just answer simple questions? Why does he contradict himself?

He seems desperate to keep some kind of narrative alive.

I wonder what his motives are?

Werd, do you deny that in this post of yours here:

https://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=10120&start=45#p78985

You admitted the following:

Morrison:

What graves Werd?

Can you show us one mass grave that was opened by this alleged "Aktion 1005" group?


Werd:

Nope.



A simple yes or no will suffice Werd.

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Re: Aktion 1005 and Mattogno's alleged lies

Postby Clay » 1 week 2 days ago (Wed Nov 18, 2020 4:21 pm)

Werd wrote:
Clay wrote:Werd, please show us a photograph where the stratigraphy in a mass grave filled with corpses killed by Aktion 1005 can be seen.

Aktion 1005 was not an alleged order to kill Jews. Please get that straight. It was an alleged order to exhume corpses, destroy them and erase any traces of mass graves.


Werd, please identify a location where "victims of Nazi aggression" were buried, and later exhumed and "destroyed" and the "traces" of the alleged mass graves were "erased" by this Aktion 1005.

Also, please explain in detail how these graves were located, how the corpses were exhumed and destroyed and how the traces of the alleged mass graves were erased.

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Re: Aktion 1005 and Mattogno's alleged lies

Postby Moderator » 1 week 1 day ago (Thu Nov 19, 2020 9:47 pm)

This thread and it's particular spin appears to be played out.
However, anyone can always start another thread on "Aktion 1005" with their specific points if they wish.
A reminder, there are other existing threads on "Aktion 1005" as well. I suggest a review of them.
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