freedom of speech in Nazi germany - the White Rose group

[onetruth]

~

Nice to see all here are for free speech.

I wonder what level of free speech would any of you enjoy had you lived in Nazi germany.

Hitler was a dictator who was not shy of murdering his own man ( see night of the long knifes ) , locking his own people in concentration camps ( first concentration camps where built in germany right after the nazi came to power in 1933 where for german citizens ) and executing anyone daring to speak against the regime ( see the white rose - a group of students that apposed the war and the regime whose members where executed after they distributed leaflets in the university.

The White Rose was a non-violent, intellectual resistance group in Nazi Germany, consisting of students from the University of Munich and their philosophy professor. The group became known for an anonymous leaflet and graffiti campaign, lasting from June 1942 until February 1943 . Six of its members where executed.

Hans and Sophie Scholl members of the white rose executed on the 22 February 1943



Stanm honoring Hans and Sophie Scholl



Sophie Scholl :



The White Rose pavement memorial just outside the main entrance of Munich University :




This is the leaflets handed out by the white rose Part concerning the holocaust :

"We do not want to discuss here the question of the Jews, nor do we want in this leaflet to compose a defense or apology. No, only by way of example do we want to site the fact that since the conquest of Poland three hundred thousand Jews have been murdered in this country in the most bestial way. Here we see the most frightful crime against human dignity, a crime that is unparalleled in the whole of history. For Jews, too, are human beings - no matter what position we take with respect to the Jewish question - and a crime of this dimension has been perpetrated against human beings. Someone may say that the Jews deserve their fate. This assertion would be a monstrous impertinence; but let us assume that someone said this - what position has he then taken toward the fact that the entire Polish aristocratic youth is being annihilated? (May God grant that this program has not yet fully achieved its aim as yet!) All male offspring of the houses of the nobility between the ages of fifteen and twenty were transported to concentration camps in Germany and sentenced to forced labor, and all the girls of this age group were sent to Norway, into the bordellos of the SS!

Why tell you these things, since you are fully aware of them - or if not of these, then of other equally grave crimes committed by this frightful sub-humanity? Because here we touch on a problem which involves us deeply and forces us all to take thought. Why do German people behave so apathetically in the face of all these abominable crimes, crimes so unworthy of the human race? Hardly anyone thinks about that. It is accepted as fact and put out of mind. The German people slumber on in their dull, stupid sleep and encourage these fascist criminals; they give them the opportunity to carry on their depredations; and of course they do so. Is this a sign that the Germans are brutalized in their simplest human feelings, that no chord within them cries out at the sight of such deeds, that they have sunk into a fatal consciencelessness from which they will never, never awake? It seems to be so, and will certainly be so, if the German does not at last start up out of his stupor, if he does not protest wherever and whenever he can against this clique of criminal, if he shows no sympathy for these hundreds of thousands of victims. He must evidence not only sympathy; no, much more: a sense of complicity in guilt. "


all of the white rose leaflets can be found here :


http://www.holocaustresearchproject.org ... flets.html

[Hannover]

onetruth, 'The White Rose' canard has been sliced & diced here:

'The White Rose'
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=4428

some points:

- "Free speech"? Imagine distributing treasonous pamphlets against the Allied governments in any of the Allied countries during WWII.

- "Free speech"? Imagine what would have happened to any American or Brit if during WWII they went around saying or distributing material which said:
'Don’t believe Roosevelt's / Churchill's anti-German propaganda meant to frightened you.'

- "Free speech"? Imagine what would have happened to any American who dared to criticize the imprisoning of Japanese-Americans & German-Americans in US concentration camps during WWII.

- "Free speech"? Imagine what would have happened to any Soviet citizen if during WWII they went around saying or distributing material which said:
'Don’t believe Stalin and the Communist Party's anti-German propaganda'.

- Where did these pamphlets come from? Who made them? Anyone can write pamphlets to say anything they wish. Propaganda was the order of the day by the Allies and their communist / Zionist brethren.
In fact, fake pamphlets still seem to be a preferred Zionist method, see:
'Anti-Semitic flyer handed to Jews in Ukraine was a fake ... '
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... z430aXz4nl
more here:
'The Fraudulent Rise in UK 'Antisemitism'
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=9469
see links to other fakes given there
and:
'yet another fake "antisemitic" effort by racist - supremacist Jews'
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=10064&p=76036

- Most of the claimed text in these pamphlets reads like something from the Communist Manifesto. If Scholl wrote this I would be very surprised. It also has the feeling of being written after the war with things like: 'a federal Germany', "constitutional order". The Prussian references are bizarre, First the problem is alleged Prussian militarism, but then the problem becomes Imperialism. And Hitler was not Prussian.

referring to the alleged text:
- How would Scholl know about the 'fate of the Jews'?
1. The 'extermination' that is absurdly alleged did not occur.
2. Even the manufactured storyline says it all was top secret?

Don’t believe the National Socialist propaganda that frightened you with the Bolshevik scare!
- A new war of liberation is dawning.
- That the imperialistic idea of power must be destroyed, regardless of where it comes from.
- Only when all of the European nations work together in harmony can the ground be prepared for a new beginning.
- The working masses must be freed from slavery by the implementation of a reasonable socialism.

Classic communist nonsense. I was expecting to see the music & words to the 'Internationale' next.

- And where is the complete trial transcripts in German to review? Where is the full verdict in German to review?

- Why aren't the authentic German documents from the court visible for the reader to view?
Reminds me of the complete lack of full, authentic German language court transcripts and cross examinations records of Germans who supposedly 'confessed' or were supposedly 'found 'guilty' of 'holocaust' activities. Things are hidden for a reason.

Hannover

The 'holocaust' storyline is one of the most easily debunked narratives ever contrived. That is why those who question it are arrested and persecuted. That is why violent, racist, & privileged Jewish supremacists demand censorship. What sort of truth is it that crushes the freedom to seek the truth? Truth needs no protection from scrutiny.

The tide is turning.

[Hektor]

....
- Most of the claimed text reads like something from the Communist Manifesto. If Scholl wrote this I would be very surprised. It also has the feeling of being written after the war with things like: 'a federal Germany', "constitutional order". The Prussian references are bizarre, First the problem is alleged Prussian militarism, but then the problem becomes Imperialism. And Hitler was not Prussian.

referring to the alleged text:
- How would Scholl know about the 'fate of the Jews'?
1. The 'extermination' that is absurdly alleged did not occur.
2. Even the manufactured storyline says it all was top secret?

But rumors and propaganda were spread by Allied "information services". I guess part of the pamphlets have their origins in this. Now add to this Jews being deported and stories of partisans being shot. That makes for some cocktail.

....

Don’t believe the National Socialist propaganda that frightened you with the Bolshevik scare!
- A new war of liberation is dawning.
- That the imperialistic idea of power must be destroyed, regardless of where it comes from.
- Only when all of the European nations work together in harmony can the ground be prepared for a new beginning.
- The working masses must be freed from slavery by the implementation of a reasonable socialism.

Classic communist nonsense. I was expecting to see the music & words to the 'Internationale' next.

- And where is the complete trial transcripts in German to review? Where is the full verdict in German to review?

- W....

Guess you relate here to the text on the webpage:

The imperialist ideology of force, from whatever side it comes, must be shattered for all time. A one sided Prussian militarism must never again be allowed to assume power. Only in large-scale cooperation among the nations of Europe can the ground be prepared for reconstruction. Centralized hegemony, such as the Prussian state has tried to exercise in Germany and in Europe, must be cut down at its inception. The Germany of the future must be a federal state. At this juncture only a sound federal system can imbue a weakened Europe with a new life. The workers must be liberated from their condition of down trodden slavery under National Socialism. The illusory structure of autonomous national industry must disappear. Every nation and each man have a right to the goods of the whole world!

The Prussian state was hegemonial in Germany, but not in Europe. Arguably Germany would have hegemony in Europe due to its shear size and productivity, which it not only had economically, but also culturally. Interestingly it was especially workers that would tell you after the war, how good they had it under National Socialism. It's the upper classes that make more critical utterances. Would be interesting to examine the reasons for this.

What the Scholl Group did was conspiracy and incitement to High Treason. That's common treason in war time, since they aided and abetted the war efforts against Germany / the Axis. A war that had been instigated by influential and wealthy circles in the Allied countries, and to which Germany was urged to respond by force. That's even in the Nuremberg records.

Hence it's a pretty normal thing that those people were arrested and tried. Whether the death penalty was really applicable is of course another question, formally I'd say yes, but given that those relatively young and naive people were duped, mercy would have been justified as well.

[neugierig]

Onethruth (what you contribute is far from true, perhaps another handle is called for), as Hannover mentioned, The White Rose issue has been discussed here and laid to rest. They were traitors, misled young ideologists (I have some material on it but am not up finding it). Calling for the overthrow of the government, in war time, is treason, period. And as I recall, there was no noticeable public outcry. We must remember that the euthanasia program was stopped because of public pressure, so much for Hitler killing all opponents.

True, Dachau was the first concentration camp established, the reason was to try and break the resistance to the National Socialist regime. No one was ever murdered in Dachau, most of the internees released, for 1933 16 409 interned and 12 554 released (Deschner, Reinhard Heydrich, pp.89ff). There is more to this, and believe me, the propaganda version of history, concocted by the victors, is a pack of lies.

Hektor referred to Prussia, here is what I found in “Auch Du warst dabei (You were there as well), by Peter Kleist (published in 1952, the book still causing consternations to the Bundesrepublik mind control minions) First off, I always considered the reunification of Germany in 1871, by Bismarck, as the beginning of the end for Germany, it was, but the German Tragedy started earlier. From the book, my translation of course. Kleist titled the chapter: “Germany arrived too late”:

At the beginning of his book he writes that the German people were considered to help create what is known as the Occident during the existence of the Holy Roman Empire German, a German Empire in fact, when a catastrophe without comparison occurred.
While other, more fortunate, people were sailing the oceans and using the newly developed gun power to establish their colonies, Germany was devastated by the 30 YEAR WAR (1618 – 1648). This war started as a religious war but as a consequence of the interference by foreign nations, France in particular, it initiated the dismantling of the afore mentioned German Empire into hundred of powerless principalities. The high culture of the rich and confidant middle class was in ashes; 1/3 or the population dead due to war and disease. The armies of the enemies had turned untold numbers of cities and villages into rubble, leaving graveyards behind, the infrastructure destroyed. It took a century of painstaking work to just get back to what was, with Prussia emerging as a force to be reckoned with”. (pp. 15/16)

So yes, Prussia, in order to at least try and defend Germany – prevent others from again invade – became a military power, Wellington used them to defeat Napoleon at Waterloo. And it is this aspect the propagandist harp on, ignoring the positives, the efforts by Alexander von Humbold, to just name one. The Prussian General Staff was envied by others for it efficiency, Hitler succeeded in destroying it.

Too much to get into, but again onetruth, Hollywood at al are not reliable sources, one needs to dig deeper.

Regards
Wilf

[borjastick]

So how exactly would White Rose know for certain that five minutes after Poland was invaded 300,000 jews were murdered? The answer is they didn't. It was left wing, communist jewish propaganda.

[Hektor]

So how exactly would White Rose know for certain that five minutes after Poland was invaded 300,000 jews were murdered? The answer is they didn't. It was left wing, communist jewish propaganda.

They didn't say 5 minutes, more like 3 years. How they came up with the 300.000 figure remains of course a mystery.

The use of the term bestial implies something else then gassing, unless of course it's inserted for pure propaganda pulling some emotional strings.

[EtienneSC]

~ Nice to see all here are for free speech.

I wonder what level of free speech would any of you enjoy had you lived in Nazi germany.

In fact revisionists are divided on the free speech issue. Not all those in France for example wish to assert a right to state something that can be shown in a court of law not to be true. Instead, they argue that the court should establish the truth of claims whose assertion is criminalized.

In some cases though, I think there is a double standard by some revisionist apologists.

The principles of free speech in the USA and to a lesser extent in Britain are an achievement that was not mirrored on the Continent of Europe prior to 1945. Of course, since around 1990 the situation has moved backwards in Europe. Under a recent ruling of the European Court of Human Rights holocaust denial was excluded from the protection of under the principle of free speech.

[Mulegino1]

The question should be: "What about freedom of speech in NATO occupied Germany?"

The White Rose group committed sedition and treason during war time. That is serious business. No responsible government would fail to punish such activity.

On the other hand, to my knowledge, nobody was ever incarcerated in NSDAP Germany for publishing a chemical analysis done on bricks, questioning an official statistic, or proposing an alternative historical narrative with regards to what happened (or is alleged to have happened) 70 years in the past.

[Inquisitor]

.The White Rose group committed sedition and treason during war time. That is serious business. No responsible government would fail to punish such activity.

Indeed - in that supposed universal bastion of free-speech known as America, it was codified into law during WW1 (though very late in the war, thus limiting actual punishment, etc.)


----------

[Hektor]

....
Hitler was a dictator who was not shy of murdering his own man ( see night of the long knifes ) , locking his own people in concentration camps ( first concentration camps where built in germany right after the nazi came to power in 1933 where for german citizens ) and executing anyone daring to speak against the regime ( see the white rose - a group of students that apposed the war and the regime whose members where executed after they distributed leaflets in the university.
....

It's always easy to misrepresent something by stating things out of their historical context. The camps were started under circumstance of threat by civil war i.e. from the side of the Communists. Roehm & Co were killed for preparing a coup in order to implement more radical changes in Germany. It was the moderate wing against the radicals of the NSDAP. Non-Action would have meant far more deaths at that time. So one deals with state of emergency issues.

Where is the state of emergency with people publishing opinion and information deviating from official historiography?

And by the way the empowerment act suspended the constitution - That's more honest then factually disabling rights and still claiming that the constitutional rights are in place.

[HMSendeavour]

....
- Most of the claimed text reads like something from the Communist Manifesto. If Scholl wrote this I would be very surprised. It also has the feeling of being written after the war with things like: 'a federal Germany', "constitutional order". The Prussian references are bizarre, First the problem is alleged Prussian militarism, but then the problem becomes Imperialism. And Hitler was not Prussian.

referring to the alleged text:
- How would Scholl know about the 'fate of the Jews'?
1. The 'extermination' that is absurdly alleged did not occur.
2. Even the manufactured storyline says it all was top secret?

But rumors and propaganda were spread by Allied "information services". I guess part of the pamphlets have their origins in this. Now add to this Jews being deported and stories of partisans being shot. That makes for some cocktail.

....

Don’t believe the National Socialist propaganda that frightened you with the Bolshevik scare!
- A new war of liberation is dawning.
- That the imperialistic idea of power must be destroyed, regardless of where it comes from.
- Only when all of the European nations work together in harmony can the ground be prepared for a new beginning.
- The working masses must be freed from slavery by the implementation of a reasonable socialism.

Classic communist nonsense. I was expecting to see the music & words to the 'Internationale' next.

- And where is the complete trial transcripts in German to review? Where is the full verdict in German to review?

- W....

Guess you relate here to the text on the webpage:

The imperialist ideology of force, from whatever side it comes, must be shattered for all time. A one sided Prussian militarism must never again be allowed to assume power. Only in large-scale cooperation among the nations of Europe can the ground be prepared for reconstruction. Centralized hegemony, such as the Prussian state has tried to exercise in Germany and in Europe, must be cut down at its inception. The Germany of the future must be a federal state. At this juncture only a sound federal system can imbue a weakened Europe with a new life. The workers must be liberated from their condition of down trodden slavery under National Socialism. The illusory structure of autonomous national industry must disappear. Every nation and each man have a right to the goods of the whole world!

The Prussian state was hegemonial in Germany, but not in Europe. Arguably Germany would have hegemony in Europe due to its shear size and productivity, which it not only had economically, but also culturally. Interestingly it was especially workers that would tell you after the war, how good they had it under National Socialism. It's the upper classes that make more critical utterances. Would be interesting to examine the reasons for this.

What the Scholl Group did was conspiracy and incitement to High Treason. That's common treason in war time, since they aided and abetted the war efforts against Germany / the Axis. A war that had been instigated by influential and wealthy circles in the Allied countries, and to which Germany was urged to respond by force. That's even in the Nuremberg records.

Hence it's a pretty normal thing that those people were arrested and tried. Whether the death penalty was really applicable is of course another question, formally I'd say yes, but given that those relatively young and naive people were duped, mercy would have been justified as well.

I'm curious, what Nuremberg records are these? i'd very much like to see them if they pertain to how the allies started the war.

[Hektor]

....
What the Scholl Group did was conspiracy and incitement to High Treason. That's common treason in war time, since they aided and abetted the war efforts against Germany / the Axis. A war that had been instigated by influential and wealthy circles in the Allied countries, and to which Germany was urged to respond by force. That's even in the Nuremberg records.

Hence it's a pretty normal thing that those people were arrested and tried. Whether the death penalty was really applicable is of course another question, formally I'd say yes, but given that those relatively young and naive people were duped, mercy would have been justified as well.

I'm curious, what Nuremberg records are these? i'd very much like to see them if they pertain to how the allies started the war.

The formal trial records and attached documents.
It contains speeches, diplomatic arguments and discussions between political leaders and officials. You can search it for example for keywords like encirclement. The arguments made by the German leadership are often not even contradicted by the trial participants.
E.G.L

THE German Ambassador called at the Foreign Office this morning to sign a technical agreement of no great importance between the two Governments, and I had a few moments' conversation with him afterwards. In part this followed the familiar line of assertion on his part of the effect that was being produced in Germany by encirclement. The Ambassador expressed the view that, just as the old phrase "The Fleet in being" suggested pressure even without overt action, so now the regrouping of Powers that we were organising was, in fact, designed to operate as coercive pressure on Germany, and it was this which was resented. His Excellency said, and made the same observation at a later stage in our conversation, that much of the feeling at the present time was due to all the discussion about our anti-aggression negotiations with Russia. In his view the situation would be easier when these negotiations were settled one way or the other. I thought this observation perhaps not without significance.

2. I replied by saying that, if anybody was encircling Germany, it was herself by the policy that she persisted in pursuing. Whatever might be thought about the policy now being pursued by this country, it seemed to us quite plain that the German Chancellor had broken the china in Europe and it was only he who could put it together again. We repeatedly made efforts from this side to open the way to a diminution of tension and improvement of relations, but this had so far elicited nothing in the nature of response from Herr Hitler.
http://avalon.law.yale.edu/wwii/blbk23.asp

All what's done is blame-shifting.

There is more like that.