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Malle
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More document forgeries

Postby Malle » 1 decade 7 years ago (Wed Jan 01, 2003 5:24 am)

I found this document in NMT IV (NO-4466). Can you see what's wrong in it?
LETTER FROM CENTRAL SS CONSTRUCTION MANAGEMENT AUSCHWITZ TO GERMAN EQUIPMENT WORKS (DAW), <font color=red>6/13/1943</font>, URGING COMPLETION OF CREMATORIUMS I, II, III, IV AND OTHER CARPENTRY WORK

21242/43/Er/L.

To the Deutsche Ausruestungswerke G.m.b.H. [DAW German Equipment Works, Ltd.] Auschwitz

Subject: Carrying out of carpentry work for local construction projects.

Reference: Letter of the Central Construction Management of 11/4/1942, Bftgb., 17450/42/Er/L, and repeated personal meetings with SS Ostuf. Wagner and Z. A. Lochner

In our above-quoted letter (copy forwarded to the office W IV) we asked you, following a meeting with SS Obersturmfuehrer Wagner, to complete the carpentry work for the below-mentioned construction as soon as possible, as otherwise the building operations would have to be suspended in winter; in particular

1. 15 new constructions for prisoners quarters.

2. 4 build-up constructions for prisoners quarters by adding storeys.

3. Temporary Kommandantur [Headquarters].

4. Laundry building with reception, delousing plant, and bath for prisoners.

5. Laboratory at Raisko.

6. Grass drying plant at Raisko.

7. Greenhouse plant at Raisko.

8. Crematoriums <font color=red>I</font> and<font color=red> II</font>, <font color=red>prisoner of war camp</font> Auschwitz.

9. Crematoriums <font color=red>III</font> and <font color=red>IV</font>, <font color=red>prisoner of war camp</font> Auschwitz.

The carpentry work, however, had in no case been done proportionate to the completion of the other parts of the construction despite the repeated verbal promises by the management of the Deutsche Ausruestungswerke, Auschwitz plant. In the first place, delivery without delay is requested for the doors (ordered by letter of 10/26/1942 Bftgb. Nr.: 17010/42/Ky/ Pa.) for the crematorium I in the prisoner of war camp, which is urgently needed for the execution of the special measures; otherwise the progress of the construction work would be jeopardized.

Likewise, the completion of windows for the reception building and the doors for 5 huts for the accommodation of prisoners i urgently required for the same reasons. Due to the lack of windows and doors in some of the constructions in progress the building operations had, on account of the <font color=red>now prevailing severe frost</font>, to be suspended thereby causing a delay in the completion of the urgently needed construction for considerable time. Since the central construction management, having transferred its own shop to the Deutsche Ausruestungswerke G.m.b.H., Auschwitz Plant, is no longer in a position to have carpentry work done of their own accord, the Auschwitz plant of the DAW must on its own part, do its best in order to assist the progress of the construction work being done in this place by delivering the carpentry work in time.

Thus, we renew our request to complete and deliver in the first place the carpentry world mentioned above without delay.

Furthermore, the supplementary terms of the agreement for the tender for the prisoners quarters and the laundry building asked for by letter of the Central Construction Department of 12/9/1942, Bftgb. No.: 19708/42/Tei/Lm, are still missing.

The Chief of the Central Construction Management

of the Waffen SS and Police Auschwitz

SS Hauptsturmfuehrer

Distribution:

1SS Ustuf. Ertl

1SS Ustuf. Jarisch

1SS Ustuf. Kirschneck

1SS Ustuf. Kywitz

1Filing department (shop orders DAW)

Certified true copy.

[Signed] F. A. TUCHMANN


On this one I'm sure:

Look at the date, its June and its "now prevailing severe frost" in Poland. IDIOT'S!!! Its in the middle of the summer.

Questions:

Did the Germans branded Auschwitz as POW camp?
Look at the numbers on the Cremas, did the Germans usually count that way in their documents?

Hebden
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Re: More document forgeries

Postby Hebden » 1 decade 7 years ago (Wed Jan 01, 2003 6:06 am)

Malle wrote:I found this document in NMT IV (NO-4466). Can you see what's wrong in it?

On this one I'm sure:

Look at the date, its June and its "now prevailing severe frost" in Poland. IDIOT'S!!! Its in the middle of the summer.


We disagree. The letter is referring to work ordered in the winter of 1942/43. The failure to complete the carpentry work evidently hindered the construction projects.

Questions:

Did the Germans branded Auschwitz as POW camp?


The Auschwitz II camp at Birkenau was indeed originally designated as a POW camp.

Look at the numbers on the Cremas, did the Germans usually count that way in their documents?


Yes, we think so. There seems nothing incriminating about this document, one way or the other.

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Postby Malle » 1 decade 7 years ago (Wed Jan 01, 2003 6:17 am)

Well, we disagree. What does the sentence "now prevailing severe frost" mean to you? Is it now as in NOW or is it 6 months back?

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Postby Hebden » 1 decade 7 years ago (Wed Jan 01, 2003 6:24 am)

Malle wrote:Well, we disagree. What does the sentence "now prevailing severe frost" mean to you? Is it now as in NOW or is it 6 months back?


We understand the point, but the context leads us to believe that our reading is correct. We would like to see the German original, our not having great faith in the fidelity of translations.

Incidentally, the thread title refers to 'More Document Forgeries'. Out of interest, which are the other ones?

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Postby Malle » 1 decade 7 years ago (Wed Jan 01, 2003 6:34 am)

Hebden wrote:
We understand the point, but the context leads us to believe that our reading is correct. We would like to see the German original, our not having great faith in the fidelity of translations.

There we agree. If you find the German original, please notify me.:D
Hebden wrote:
Incidentally, the thread title refers to 'More Document Forgeries'. Out of interest, which are the other ones?

For example Document PS-501 (Becker, the operator of several death vans, written to Rauff), you can read about it here:
http://www.codoh.info/found/fndwagon.html
Last edited by Malle on Wed Jan 01, 2003 6:58 am, edited 1 time in total.

alpha

Postby alpha » 1 decade 7 years ago (Wed Jan 01, 2003 6:48 am)

Malle,
it is noteworthy that you are declaring a document forgery without having seen the original German document, but merely a IMT translation. Where do you know that the "errors" aren't simply the result of a poor translation of an authentic German document?

For example. the registeration number in the header (21242/43/Er/L.) indicates that the document was written in January 1943, in winter, and thus the text is entirely plausible and the document seemed to have been dated incorrectly by the Nuremberg translators. Furthermore, there is, as pointed out by Hebden, no reason why somebody should forge this document.

Yes, what are the other ones you have shown to be forgeries? I've never came across to one that is demonstrable a forgery, no gas van document, no Wansee protocol, no Auschwitz document, nothing.
Last edited by alpha on Wed Jan 01, 2003 8:30 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Malle » 1 decade 7 years ago (Wed Jan 01, 2003 7:08 am)

Alpha, see my previous post!

alpha

Postby alpha » 1 decade 7 years ago (Wed Jan 01, 2003 7:50 am)

Malle wrote:For example Document PS-501 (Becker, the operator of several death vans, written to Rauff), you can read about it here:
http://www.codoh.info/found/fndwagon.html


But where does Ingrid Weckert demonstrate that PS-501 is a forgery?
She doesn't, and she doesn't claim that she has demonstrated PS-501 being a forgery. And her assertions regarding the "different versions" are adressded in "Holocaust Denial" by John Zimmerman, page 357.

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Postby Malle » 1 decade 7 years ago (Wed Jan 01, 2003 8:43 am)

Alpha wrote:
But where does Ingrid Weckert demonstrate that PS-501 is a forgery?


True. She doesn't spell that out. But if you see below in her summary of Document PS-501, she could equally say it is a forgery.

3.1.4. Summary
We have found that the origin of the letter from Becker to Rauff which was submitted to the Nuremberg Tribunal as Prosecution Document PS-501 is uncertain, and hence dubious.
The handwritten notes on the first page of the letter appear to be nonsensical and certainly were not written by the persons (Rauff and Pradel) whom the initials 'R' and 'P' are supposed to suggest. This would indicate a forgery.
The carbon copy bears the same notes at precisely the same places as the original letter. This is not only unusual, but also an impossible feat of handwriting. At least on the carbon copy, the notes can only have been added photomechanically. This too would indicate a forgery.
The contents of the letter are not credible, especially in their nature as letter from a subordinate to his superior.
All in all, these points are cause for grave doubts as to the authenticity of the document.

It's me that says this document is a forgery! Why? It's very simple; no one has ever found a single bolt or nut from these alleged gas vans! They even haven't found a real photo of them. And when the gas vans haven't existed, how could those documents be genuine? Or is it like the mysterious gas chambers?

alpha

Postby alpha » 1 decade 7 years ago (Wed Jan 01, 2003 9:32 am)

Malle wrote:It's me that says this document is a forgery! Why? It's very simple; no one has ever found a single bolt or nut from these alleged gas vans!


ROTLF!

Oh, come on, Malle!

Do you think the Germans would have stored the gas vans after the extermination was finished, put a large label saying this is a homicidal gas van and marked every single bolt as a gas van bolt?!

Frankly, I don't think so. In fact, it is reasonable to assume that they have dismantled the vans, so that it is impossible to identify any bolts as gas van bolts. That being so it is absurd to argue the document is a forgery because the Germans have not presented their gas vans to the allies!


They even haven't found a real photo of them.

And there is no reason why the Germans should have taken photos from their gas vans!


And when the gas vans haven't existed, how could those documents be genuine?

Circular reasoning

Or is it like the mysterious gas chambers?


I don't know what myterious gas-chambers you mean?

Maybe those:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/camps/aus ... ammern.jpg

"Fußboden Aufschüttung auffüllen, stampfen und Fußboden
betonieren im[sic!] Gasskammer[sic!]"

Translation:

"cover the floor with hard fill, tamp down and concrete the floor in
the gas-chamber"

Source: Kogon, E., H. Langbein, A. Rueckerl, Eds. Nazi Mass Murder. Yale
University Press, 1993. p. 248.

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/camps/aus ... keller.jpg

"Vergasungskeller"

Translation:

"gassing cellar"

Source: Pressac, Jean-Claude. Auschwitz: Technique and operation of the gaschambers. The Beate Klarsfeld Foundation, New York, 1989. p. 211.

These were homicidal gas-chambers in Auschwitz-Birkenau as the people who should knew it better than anybody else, the Sonderkommando and SS guards, have explained.

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Postby Dan » 1 decade 7 years ago (Wed Jan 01, 2003 12:50 pm)

Malle, 6-11-43 means the sixth day of November, 1943.

Most countries don't use the silly American method of dating where the month comes before the day.

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Postby Hebden » 1 decade 7 years ago (Wed Jan 01, 2003 1:16 pm)

Dan wrote:Malle, 6-11-43 means the sixth day of November, 1943.

Most countries don't use the silly American method of dating where the month comes before the day.


Sir, it reads 6/13/43.

alpha

Postby alpha » 1 decade 7 years ago (Wed Jan 01, 2003 1:28 pm)

Hebden wrote:
Dan wrote:Malle, 6-11-43 means the sixth day of November, 1943.

Most countries don't use the silly American method of dating where the month comes before the day.


Sir, it reads 6/13/43.


The author of the document is Ertl, who was transfered from Auschwitz in late January 1943 (Pressac, Die Krematorien von Auschwitz). The registration number 21242 is below the registration number of the highly incriminating "cremation with simultanous Sonderbehandlung" document (22186), which is dated 29 January 1943. Both details correspond and indicate that the document was in fact written in January 1943 and that the nuremberg translation has simply put a wrong date on the document.

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Postby Dan » 1 decade 7 years ago (Wed Jan 01, 2003 2:05 pm)

Whether it's the 29th of January, or the 13th of November, it's still not the middle of summer.

Thanks, Hebden, how've you been?

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Postby Malle » 1 decade 7 years ago (Wed Jan 01, 2003 2:19 pm)

Alpha wrote:
ROTLF!

Oh, come on, Malle!

Do you think the Germans would have stored the gas vans after the extermination was finished, put a large label saying this is a homicidal gas van and marked every single bolt as a gas van bolt?!

Frankly, I don't think so. In fact, it is reasonable to assume that they have dismantled the vans, so that it is impossible to identify any bolts as gas van bolts. That being so it is absurd to argue the document is a forgery because the Germans have not presented their gas vans to the allies!


Let me simply state that the Allied found vehicles of all kinds, U-bots, jet plans, V1 rockets, V2 rockets and a lot of other things. Very odd that they didn't find any gas van, because if you should believe the alleged story, there must been a lot of them.

But if you say so, I must take your word for it, it was so, so very, very secret!

Alpha wrote:And there is no reason why the Germans should have taken photos from their gas vans!


Well somebody has done it. Chelmno KZ, Yad Vashem and Jewish Virtual Library has a photo. Sorry to say that Document PS-501 says it's a "SAUER" and this photo shows a "MAGIRUS-DEUTZ". As usual, the liars can't keep their stories straight.
Image

Alpha wrote:I don't know what myterious gas-chambers you mean?

Maybe those:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/camps/aus ... ammern.jpg

"Fußboden Aufschüttung auffüllen, stampfen und Fußboden
betonieren im[sic!] Gasskammer[sic!]"

Translation:

"cover the floor with hard fill, tamp down and concrete the floor in
the gas-chamber"

Source: Kogon, E., H. Langbein, A. Rueckerl, Eds. Nazi Mass Murder. Yale
University Press, 1993. p. 248.


It may come as news to you, but there were actually gas chambers in A-B. Not to kill people, but to disinfect clothes etc! So what does that "Tagesbericht" proof?

Alpha wrote:http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/camps/aus ... keller.jpg

"Vergasungskeller"

Translation:

"gassing cellar"

Source: Pressac, Jean-Claude. Auschwitz: Technique and operation of the gaschambers. The Beate Klarsfeld Foundation, New York, 1989. p. 211.


I don't agree on the English translation. "VER" you could translate in this case to "BEFORE". An example, in a gasoline engine you have (actually had) a carburettor. In this you create gas mixture BEFORE it goes into the cylinders. Compare "VERGASER", the German word for carburettor.

Now that we have cleared that up, how do you explain the gassing process? I mean, according to the above, the gas was created BEFORE the people vent into the "Vergasungskeller"! That's not the story I heard! Or they first took them into this cellar and afterwards took them to another place, where they finished off the gassing?

By the way, why doesn't the document says; "Geheime Reichssache", "Chefsache" or at least the humble "Geheime Kommandosache"? It was so, so very, very secret! Why advertise?
Alpha wrote:These were homicidal gas-chambers in Auschwitz-Birkenau as the people who should knew it better than anybody else, the Sonderkommando and SS guards, have explained.


Yes, we all know Filip Müller, Miklos Nyizli, Perry Board, Benedikt Kautsky, Johann Paul Kremer and others. We shall never forget them!


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