the usual big bluff / True Believer 'Nessie' pleads his case, but without proof / + Sobibor, Treblinka

[Hektor]

....... His claimed faith in so called 'survivors", and faith is what it is, I doubt he really believes them anyway, does not withstand scrutiny. Each of those that he cites are bizarre and contradictory in the extreme and Revisionists have shredded them all.
Truth does not matter to those like him.

.......

The survivor testimony that I do believe is that which is corroborated by other evidence, which is the standard used in Scots Law. So a survivor witness who states the bodies at TII were exhumed and cremated is corroborated by the archaeological evidence of ash and cremains found at the site. A survivor witness who states they were selected to work on arriving at Birkenau and those not were lead away and never seen again is corroborated by Nazi admissions, photos of selections and the missing Jews. Both are then accepted as telling the truth.

Bizarre evidence such as repeated survival of gassings is not believed because of a lack of corroboration and the science which makes repeated exposure to poisonous gas not survivable. The contradictions are due to eye witness evidence being the least accurate in detail of all forms of evidence. Where none are contradictory is that the Nazis conducted mass murder of Jews and others they regarded as sub human.

So in the points they don't contradict each other completely (meaning they agree on certain points ), you deem them to be credible and truthful, despite the physical evidence not supporting the assertions. Is that right?

I guess there can be more then one reason why testimony of a number of people can agree on certain points. Do you know what they are?

[Nessie..]

....... His claimed faith in so called 'survivors", and faith is what it is, I doubt he really believes them anyway, does not withstand scrutiny. Each of those that he cites are bizarre and contradictory in the extreme and Revisionists have shredded them all.
Truth does not matter to those like him.

.......

The survivor testimony that I do believe is that which is corroborated by other evidence, which is the standard used in Scots Law. So a survivor witness who states the bodies at TII were exhumed and cremated is corroborated by the archaeological evidence of ash and cremains found at the site. A survivor witness who states they were selected to work on arriving at Birkenau and those not were lead away and never seen again is corroborated by Nazi admissions, photos of selections and the missing Jews. Both are then accepted as telling the truth.

Bizarre evidence such as repeated survival of gassings is not believed because of a lack of corroboration and the science which makes repeated exposure to poisonous gas not survivable. The contradictions are due to eye witness evidence being the least accurate in detail of all forms of evidence. Where none are contradictory is that the Nazis conducted mass murder of Jews and others they regarded as sub human.

So in the points they don't contradict each other completely (meaning they agree on certain points ), you deem them to be credible and truthful, despite the physical evidence not supporting the assertions. Is that right?

No because there is supporting evidence for their claims. For example the ash and cremains at Sobibor along with personal property from civilians and Dutch ID tags. That is physical evidence which supports witnesses who say Jews were taken there, killed and the bodies cremated and mixed back into the earth.

I guess there can be more then one reason why testimony of a number of people can agree on certain points. Do you know what they are?

Yes. They could have got together and colluded. There is no evidence that Dutch Jews, other survivors from Sobibor and Nazis who worked there got together, agreed to make up a story of mass killings and kept that story going to the present day. I would believe there had been collusion if the archaeologists had not found ash, cremains and personal items at Sobibor.

[Hektor]

...

No because there is supporting evidence for their claims. For example the ash and cremains at Sobibor along with personal property from civilians and Dutch ID tags. That is physical evidence which supports witnesses who say Jews were taken there, killed and the bodies cremated and mixed back into the earth.

I think that's a bit rich. The Dutch ID tag plus the cremains aren't necessarily related in the sense that it's the cremains of Dutch Jews being killed there and then cremated. All that is, is a possibility.

The cremains could be of people that may have died for any number of reason. And the previous users of the ID tags can be of deportees who were sent elsewhere as well.

Must I repeat? That people died and were cremated/buried at transit and concentration camp sites is NOT in dispute.

I guess there can be more then one reason why testimony of a number of people can agree on certain points. Do you know what they are?

Yes. They could have got together and colluded. There is no evidence that Dutch Jews, other survivors from Sobibor and Nazis who worked there got together, agreed to make up a story of mass killings and kept that story going to the present day. I would believe there had been collusion if the archaeologists had not found ash, cremains and personal items at Sobibor.[/quote]

Eh, where are you going at. Something like a thousands of Dutch Jews telling a story of other Dutch Jews, being gassed, then cremated, the ashes distributed and After that the ID tags being distributed in the mixed up cremains?!

My issue is a separate one. When people are called up for trials and they got some organized background. Someone may have helped them "refreshing their memory" and that source may actually be the reason for similarity between the testimonies.

There is some good indication of witness coaching at Holocaust related Trials:
http://rodoh.info/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2115
That was also visible at the Eichmann trial as well as the Frankfurt Auschwitz Trial.
But I guess those are issues for separate threads.

[Hannover]

Nessie said:

No because there is supporting evidence for their claims. For example the ash and cremains at Sobibor along with personal property from civilians and Dutch ID tags. That is physical evidence which supports witnesses who say Jews were taken there, killed and the bodies cremated and mixed back into the earth.

What ash?
Show us the remains / ash for the alleged 250,000 Jews at Sobibor.
Show us the massive numbers ID tags that you claim belonged to Jews. Show us. Nessie.

You and those like you say such Jews went to enormous mass graves. Jews like you claim these enormous mass graves definitely exist and that the massive human remains definitely exist.
So please show us the excavations and verified remains of 250,000 Jews at Sobibor, and in total:

We're talking about an alleged '6M Jews & 5M others' ... that's an alleged 11,000,000. Repeat, eleven million.
But note that there is not a single verifiable excavated mass grave that can actually be SHOWN, not just claimed.
Recall:
- claimed 900,000 buried at Treblinka
- claimed 250,000 buried at Sobibor
- claimed 34,000 buried at Babi Yar
- claimed 1,250,000 buried at Auschwitz
- claimed 2,000,000 allegedly shot & buried in huge mass graves by the 'Einsatzgruppen'
- and bogus claims of many more
Jews claim those enormous graves exist and claim to know exactly where those alleged enormous mass graves are.

Revisionists are just the messengers, the absurd impossibility of the laughable 'holocaust' storyline is the message.

- Hannover

Alone the fact that one may not question the Jewish "holocaust" and that Jewish pressure has inflicted laws on democratic societies to prevent questions—while incessant promotion and indoctrination of the same averredly incontestable ‘holocaust’ occur—gives the game away. It proves that it must be a lie. Why else would one not be allowed to question it? Because it might offend the "survivors"? Because it "dishonors the dead"? Hardly sufficient reason to outlaw discussion. No, because the exposure of this leading lie might precipitate questions about so many other lies and cause the whole ramshackle fabrication to crumble."

- Gerard Menuhin / Revisionist Jew, son of famous violinist

[Tomt]

I tried imagining what 900 thousand bodies being dug up at once then burned and put back in the ground would look like. 15000 a day being cremated.

[Nessie..]

...

No because there is supporting evidence for their claims. For example the ash and cremains at Sobibor along with personal property from civilians and Dutch ID tags. That is physical evidence which supports witnesses who say Jews were taken there, killed and the bodies cremated and mixed back into the earth.

I think that's a bit rich. The Dutch ID tag plus the cremains aren't necessarily related in the sense that it's the cremains of Dutch Jews being killed there and then cremated. All that is, is a possibility.

The cremains could be of people that may have died for any number of reason. And the previous users of the ID tags can be of deportees who were sent elsewhere as well.

Must I repeat? That people died and were cremated/buried at transit and concentration camp sites is NOT in dispute.

It further evidences that Dutch Jews were at the camp. The main dispute is over how many dead are there? Since no body count is possible then other evidence, such as how many went to a camp and how many left is used to show the numbers.

I guess there can be more then one reason why testimony of a number of people can agree on certain points. Do you know what they are?

Yes. They could have got together and colluded. There is no evidence that Dutch Jews, other survivors from Sobibor and Nazis who worked there got together, agreed to make up a story of mass killings and kept that story going to the present day. I would believe there had been collusion if the archaeologists had not found ash, cremains and personal items at Sobibor.

Eh, where are you going at. Something like a thousands of Dutch Jews telling a story of other Dutch Jews, being gassed, then cremated, the ashes distributed and After that the ID tags being distributed in the mixed up cremains?!

There were 18 Dutch survivors most of whom speak to leaving the rest of the transport they were on at Sobibor and never seeing any of them again. If you think collusion, please evidence such.

My issue is a separate one. When people are called up for trials and they got some organized background. Someone may have helped them "refreshing their memory" and that source may actually be the reason for similarity between the testimonies.

There is some good indication of witness coaching at Holocaust related Trials:
http://rodoh.info/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2115
That was also visible at the Eichmann trial as well as the Frankfurt Auschwitz Trial.
But I guess those are issues for separate threads.

The 18 Dutch survivors gave their own testimony not at trials. The 1960s trials of the Nazis as accused adds to the list of people who speak to Sobibor being a death camp. Witness coaching is not an issue with them. More detail here;

https://www.sobiborinterviews.nl/en/nederlandse-overlevenden

[Nessie..]

Nessie said:

No because there is supporting evidence for their claims. For example the ash and cremains at Sobibor along with personal property from civilians and Dutch ID tags. That is physical evidence which supports witnesses who say Jews were taken there, killed and the bodies cremated and mixed back into the earth.

What ash?
Show us the remains / ash for the alleged 250,000 Jews at Sobibor.

I can show you ash that has been uncovered during archaeological investigations at the site here

http://sobibor.info.pl/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/Report-by-Y.Haimi-autumn-winter-2012-2013.pdf

"The area was found to be heavily disturbed and contained the remains of human bones, artifacts and ash to a depth of 0.5 meters."

I cannot do a body count from those remains.

Show us the massive numbers ID tags that you claim belonged to Jews. Show us. Nessie.

I have not claimed massive numbers of ID tags. There are three I know of belonging to Kapper, de la Penha and Zak.

You and those like you say such Jews went to enormous mass graves. Jews like you claim these enormous mass graves definitely exist and that the massive human remains definitely exist.
So please show us the excavations and verified remains of 250,000 Jews at Sobibor, and in total:

We're talking about an alleged '6M Jews & 5M others' ... that's an alleged 11,000,000. Repeat, eleven million.
But note that there is not a single verifiable excavated mass grave that can actually be SHOWN, not just claimed.
Recall:
- claimed 900,000 buried at Treblinka
- claimed 250,000 buried at Sobibor
- claimed 34,000 buried at Babi Yar
- claimed 1,250,000 buried at Auschwitz
- claimed 2,000,000 allegedly shot & buried in huge mass graves by the 'Einsatzgruppen'
- and bogus claims of many more
Jews claim those enormous graves exist and claim to know exactly where those alleged enormous mass graves are.

Revisionists are just the messengers, the absurd impossibility of the laughable 'holocaust' storyline is the message.

- Hannover

Alone the fact that one may not question the Jewish "holocaust" and that Jewish pressure has inflicted laws on democratic societies to prevent questions—while incessant promotion and indoctrination of the same averredly incontestable ‘holocaust’ occur—gives the game away. It proves that it must be a lie. Why else would one not be allowed to question it? Because it might offend the "survivors"? Because it "dishonors the dead"? Hardly sufficient reason to outlaw discussion. No, because the exposure of this leading lie might precipitate questions about so many other lies and cause the whole ramshackle fabrication to crumble."

- Gerard Menuhin / Revisionist Jew, son of famous violinist

I cannot show you mass graves with bodies lined up and counted to the numbers you have quoted because none have been uncovered. What has been found are areas of ash and cremains showing the bodies were cremated and then mixed back in with the earth as at Sobibor. The body count and number of original graves is not possible from that.

[Hektor]

I tried imagining what 900 thousand bodies being dug up at once then burned and put back in the ground would look like. 15000 a day being cremated.

Yes, where is the evidence for this. Are there even any corroborating reports on this? I think the Holocaust narrators haven't thought of this.

[Kingfisher]

I cannot show you mass graves with bodies lined up and counted to the numbers you have quoted because none have been uncovered. What has been found are areas of ash and cremains showing the bodies were cremated and then mixed back in with the earth as at Sobibor. The body count and number of original graves is not possible from that.

Firstly, Nessie, thank you for coming here and debating with us. Unlike most proponents of the orthodox narrative Revisionists should welcome criticism. While your arguments must be subject to rigorous criticism you should be treated with utmost respect on a personal level, provided of course that you observe the same standards with us.

The standard story says that some 700k bodies were buried before being dug up, burned and reburied. The pits for the original burying would be ginormous. Once dug, the soil structure is destroyed for ever, and they can not be hidden. The existence of any such pits has yet to be demonstrated. The Sturdy Colls investigation was a farce.

It is untrue that we cannot get a body count from the amount of cremains. We cannot get an accurate count, but we can get an idea of the order of magnitude. Is it hundreds, thousands, tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands? I am open to correction but I believe that discoveries so far at any Reinhardt site will support at most a claim of "thousands", which is compatible with deaths in transit, random brutality, executions on site, etc. but not with mass extermination.

[Hektor]

...

No because there is supporting evidence for their claims. For example the ash and cremains at Sobibor along with personal property from civilians and Dutch ID tags. That is physical evidence which supports witnesses who say Jews were taken there, killed and the bodies cremated and mixed back into the earth.

I think that's a bit rich. The Dutch ID tag plus the cremains aren't necessarily related in the sense that it's the cremains of Dutch Jews being killed there and then cremated. All that is, is a possibility.

The cremains could be of people that may have died for any number of reason. And the previous users of the ID tags can be of deportees who were sent elsewhere as well.

Must I repeat? That people died and were cremated/buried at transit and concentration camp sites is NOT in dispute.

It further evidences that Dutch Jews were at the camp. The main dispute is over how many dead are there? Since no body count is possible then other evidence, such as how many went to a camp and how many left is used to show the numbers.

No, the dispute is whether that camp served as extermination facility for Jews that were deported. Of course the numbers play a role, but intention and actually active killing are the main dispute.

I guess there can be more then one reason why testimony of a number of people can agree on certain points. Do you know what they are?

Yes. They could have got together and colluded. There is no evidence that Dutch Jews, other survivors from Sobibor and Nazis who worked there got together, agreed to make up a story of mass killings and kept that story going to the present day. I would believe there had been collusion if the archaeologists had not found ash, cremains and personal items at Sobibor.

Eh, where are you going at. Something like a thousands of Dutch Jews telling a story of other Dutch Jews, being gassed, then cremated, the ashes distributed and After that the ID tags being distributed in the mixed up cremains?!

There were 18 Dutch survivors most of whom speak to leaving the rest of the transport they were on at Sobibor and never seeing any of them again. If you think collusion, please evidence such.

Ah, so when I was together with a lot of other people at a train station and I never see all those other people that were there that they, it follows that all those other people must have been "exterminated". Unlikely, but it's plausible that I may believe exactly that, when rumors of extermination did circulate from this day onward. An ordinary person may indeed believe that, especially, when authority figures and main stream news outlets repeat that claim over and over again. So no collusion in the classical sense is needed.

My issue is a separate one. When people are called up for trials and they Igot some organized background. Someone may have helped them "refreshing their memory" and that source may actually be the reason for similarity between the testimonies.

There is some good indication of witness coaching at Holocaust related Trials:
http://rodoh.info/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2115
That was also visible at the Eichmann trial as well as the Frankfurt Auschwitz Trial.
But I guess those are issues for separate threads.

The 18 Dutch survivors gave their own testimony not at trials. The 1960s trials of the Nazis as accused adds to the list of people who speak to Sobibor being a death camp. Witness coaching is not an issue with them. More detail here;

https://www.sobiborinterviews.nl/en/nederlandse-overlevenden

Interesting to learn that "witness coaching" would only occur, when people actually go to testify at trial. I guess fraud only occurs in banking then.

That site you cite is also highly dishonest. How do I know that? If they even had a spark of honesty they wouldn't write "no survivors", but "no known survivors". They obviously try to trick the reader to presume, what actually needs to be found out.

[Nessie..]

I tried imagining what 900 thousand bodies being dug up at once then burned and put back in the ground would look like. 15000 a day being cremated.

Yes, where is the evidence for this. Are there even any corroborating reports on this? I think the Holocaust narrators haven't thought of this.

Corroboration for mass graves dug up and the bodies exhumed, cremated and the cremains re buried come from various eye witnesses such as Yankel Wiernik, the archaeology of the sites and the Kurt Franz album of excavators at TII

http://www.holocaustresearchproject.org/ar/treblinka/treblinkagallery/

That is a lot of major excavation at the site of a small camp which denier/revisionists have hypothesised was a transit camp.

[Atigun]

It's claimed that the "reddish brown" earth was sent for chemical analysis. That's been over 3 years ago. Any results? I see NO mention of any laboratory analysis mentioned for any of the other claims of bone fragments and human cremains. Was any of that done? Was there any chain of evidence established for such evidence? No, I don't trust the glib statements of these people claiming that a dark strata of earth is human cremains. So far, Nessie, your "proof" consists of some people digging holes in the ground. If there is laboratory analysis for those materials, by all means, let's see them. Show proof, too, that the evidence actually came from the Sobibor site.

[Nessie..]

I cannot show you mass graves with bodies lined up and counted to the numbers you have quoted because none have been uncovered. What has been found are areas of ash and cremains showing the bodies were cremated and then mixed back in with the earth as at Sobibor. The body count and number of original graves is not possible from that.

Firstly, Nessie, thank you for coming here and debating with us. Unlike most proponents of the orthodox narrative Revisionists should welcome criticism. While your arguments must be subject to rigorous criticism you should be treated with utmost respect on a personal level, provided of course that you observe the same standards with us.

The standard story says that some 700k bodies were buried before being dug up, burned and reburied. The pits for the original burying would be ginormous. Once dug, the soil structure is destroyed for ever, and they can not be hidden. The existence of any such pits has yet to be demonstrated. The Sturdy Colls investigation was a farce.

The Staffs Uni GPR and a resistance survey shows major disturbances under ground at TII.

http://www.birmingham.ac.uk/accessibility/transcripts/Caroline-Sturdy-Colls-Treblinka.aspx

"...the survey results when corroborated with historical information have indicated that there are a number of surviving building foundations at Treblinka just below the surface and also a considerable amount of obviously structural debris which the Nazis would have been simply unable to have removed from the site, and this supports accounts written by post-war investigators which commented upon the visibility of artefactual remains, structural remains, at the camp. We’ve also identified a number of pits at the site. Again, all these pits have been mapped and corroborated with witness plans and this is indicative of a number of probable graves at the site....."

Nothing farcical there. Neither was Kolas bore sampling at Belzec or Haimi's surface scraping and digs at Sobibor. All have identified what remains of the dug up graves and underground disturbances where bits of bone and ash are mixed in with the earth. Examples detailed here;

http://www.holocaustresearchproject.org/ar/modern/archreview.html

"(Belzec) Grave pit No. 1: Located in north-western part of the camp. Dimensions of the grave was determined as 40 m x 12 m and over 4.80 m deep, filled with bodies in wax-fat transformation, and a mixture of burnt human bones and charcoal. Beneath this deep strata lay a several-centimetres-thick layer of foul-smelling water beneath which were found unburnt corpses compressed by the weight of soil to a layer 20 cm thick. The drill core brought to the surface putrid pieces of human remains, including pieces of skull with skin and tufts of hair attached, and unidentifiable lumps of greyish, fatty, human tissue. The bottom of the grave was lined with a layer of evil smelling black (burnt) human fat, resembling black soap. As no evidence of fabric was brought to the surface, it may be assumed that the corpses are naked. The conclusion was drawn that the preservation of the corpses was due to the fact that they lay virtually hermetically sealed between the layer of the water above and the layer of solidified fat below, underneath which the natural, dry and compressed sand through which no air could penetrate, resulted in their partial mummification. Area: 1,500 sq m."

An example of Haimi's surface scraping at Sobibor revealing the mix of ash and earth;

http://jasonfrancisco.net/a-book-of-november

It is untrue that we cannot get a body count from the amount of cremains. We cannot get an accurate count, but we can get an idea of the order of magnitude. Is it hundreds, thousands, tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands? I am open to correction but I believe that discoveries so far at any Reinhardt site will support at most a claim of "thousands", which is compatible with deaths in transit, random brutality, executions on site, etc. but not with mass extermination.

Can you evidence that it is possible to do even a rough body count from ash, cremains and bones mixed in with the earth?

I believe that the body count is in the hundreds of thousands for each camp because there is evidence of mass arrives such as the Hofle Telegram and the Dutch Westerbork records from 1943 showing transports to Sobibor. The Hungarian transports in 1944 to Birkenau where Carlo Mattogno admits that over quarter of a million arrivals are unaccounted for, as they were not registered to work and there is no evidence they left the camp and arrived elsewhere. That lack of evidence also applies to the other AR camps. For example the Zabecki train records for TII shows full carriages arriving and empty ones leaving. The Dutch recorded on 18 Jews surving Sobibor. So we have evidence of Jews arriving and then disappearing.

[Tomt]

It's claimed that the "reddish brown" earth was sent for chemical analysis. That's been over 3 years ago. Any results? I see NO mention of any laboratory analysis mentioned for any of the other claims of bone fragments and human cremains. Was any of that done? Was there any chain of evidence established for such evidence? No, I don't trust the glib statements of these people claiming that a dark strata of earth is human cremains. So far, Nessie, your "proof" consists of some people digging holes in the ground. If there is laboratory analysis for those materials, by all means, let's see them. Show proof, too, that the evidence actually came from the Sobibor site.

I think there is a legitimate fear nothing will be found. That's why a legitimate dig is not done. It's just too risky.

[Nessie..]

It's claimed that the "reddish brown" earth was sent for chemical analysis. That's been over 3 years ago. Any results? I see NO mention of any laboratory analysis mentioned for any of the other claims of bone fragments and human cremains. Was any of that done? Was there any chain of evidence established for such evidence? No, I don't trust the glib statements of these people claiming that a dark strata of earth is human cremains. So far, Nessie, your "proof" consists of some people digging holes in the ground. If there is laboratory analysis for those materials, by all means, let's see them. Show proof, too, that the evidence actually came from the Sobibor site.

Can you show me the source of the claim of "reddish brown" earth sent for analysis? Here is a report where samples were sent for analysis from Sobibor in 1947 (page 35)

http://sobibor.info.pl/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/Sobib%C4%82%C5%82r-Bem-Mazurek-ANG..pdf

"One can come across human bones over the whole area of the camp. The
results of the expert evaluation also point towards the real function of the camp.
Thus, the Institute of Forensic Medicine at Jagiellonian University ruling states that
the examined bones are human bones. The Institute of Court Expertise in Cracow
ruling says that the sand sampled from the diggings contains an admixture of human
bone ashes and fat."

I am also confident that the "people digging holes in the ground" are archaeologists, who are trained to identify bones and so are able to pass expert opinion that bones and bone fragments found are human. When whole bones and even skeletons are found in the same place as bits of bone, I also think it is reasonable to conclude that all are human. So from the same report (page 127)

"South of grave No 7, in the trenches and by means of the boreholes that
were drilled, the excavators discovered and identified the range of another mass
grave. It is rectangular, about 25 m by 5 m in size. Its longer axis lies west-east.
The object is about 190 - 210 cm deep. In its foot-wall, the excavators found
3 layers of burnt bones, with the bone thickness of 10-15 cm, interlaced with
layers of clear, light grey sand. "

More proof of human remains mixed in with the earth.