the usual big bluff / True Believer 'Nessie' pleads his case, but without proof / + Sobibor, Treblinka

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Nessie..
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Re: the usual big bluff / True Believer 'Nessie' pleads his case, but without proof

Postby Nessie.. » 2 years 11 months ago (Mon Aug 15, 2016 8:15 am)

Tomt wrote:.....

I think there is a legitimate fear nothing will be found. That's why a legitimate dig is not done. It's just too risky.


Here is how much of Sobibor has been excavated by archaeologists over the past few years;

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All that surface area has been scraped off. The area near to the memorial (large round object) reveals a mix of earth, bones and ash below. In that area the lead archaeologist Yoram Haimi was able to find bits of bone on the surface, still after all of these years

Image

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Re: the usual big bluff / True Believer 'Nessie' pleads his case, but without proof

Postby Tomt » 2 years 11 months ago (Mon Aug 15, 2016 10:16 am)

Doesn't full skeleton go against the narrative though? Is this really proof of 250,000? I am not expecting 250000 bodies as proof but how many skeletons do we see? I was talking more about Treblinka though. Honestly I would expect about at least a foot of human ash if they dug down at Treblinka. Do you agree on at least a foot of ash at Treblinka would have to be found.

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Re: the usual big bluff / True Believer 'Nessie' pleads his case, but without proof

Postby Nessie.. » 2 years 11 months ago (Mon Aug 15, 2016 11:15 am)

Tomt wrote:
Atigun wrote:It's claimed that the "reddish brown" earth was sent for chemical analysis. That's been over 3 years ago. Any results? I see NO mention of any laboratory analysis mentioned for any of the other claims of bone fragments and human cremains. Was any of that done? Was there any chain of evidence established for such evidence? No, I don't trust the glib statements of these people claiming that a dark strata of earth is human cremains. So far, Nessie, your "proof" consists of some people digging holes in the ground. If there is laboratory analysis for those materials, by all means, let's see them. Show proof, too, that the evidence actually came from the Sobibor site.


I think there is a legitimate fear nothing will be found. That's why a legitimate dig is not done. It's just too risky.


Please explain why the work by Yoram Haimi, which has excavated large parts of Sobibor is not a legitimate dig.

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Re: the usual big bluff / True Believer 'Nessie' pleads his case, but without proof / + Sobibor

Postby Hannover » 2 years 11 months ago (Mon Aug 15, 2016 1:22 pm)

Nessie, I note that you avoided this thread:
''Sobibor as Disneyland' / another cry for help'
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=10291

Which demolishes your bogus 'excavation' at Sobibor, the fraudulent Yoram Haimi, etc.

Here's my OP in that thread.
There 's plenty of other points by others for you to address. If you respond, please do so in that thread as requested.

Also see & respond to:
'"Gas chamber" discovered at Sobibor'
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=8887

- Hannover

Revisionists are just the messengers, the absurd impossibility of the laughable 'holocaust' storyline is the message.

Hannover wrote:This is their best shot. Have a look here and laugh at the hilariously stupid claims about Sobibor and then look at their 'proof'.
Recall the claim that 250,000 Jews were absurdly said to have been murdered here, and what do we see?

You can't help but laugh at the cry for help here. Is Sobibor Disneyland? Absolutely, another Fantasy Land theme park to be sure.

excerpts, comments follow:
1. Without a fence, proper signs or a guard posted, people walk their pets on top of these human remains, literally crunching the bone fragments with their feet. Dogs and other animals relieve themselves here, and the muddy, leaf-crusted ground shows paw prints, fresh tire treads and cigarette butts everywhere. the surface.
2. The proposed memorial wall at Sobibor will circle the area of mass graves, including the prominent "ash mountain" memorial (photo courtesy: Polish-German Reconciliation Foundation)
3. In the days ahead, excavators will cover the gas chamber remains with sand, according to Polish archeologist Wojtek Mazurek, in an interview with the Times at his home in Wlodawa, the town next to Sobibor.
4. After victims’ bodies were burned in open-air crematorium, the remaining bones were ground down and tossed in with the ashes. New, often gleaming white bone fragments rise up each spring, easy to pick out among the incessant animal excrement and tire tracks.
5. Like the multinational scientists who’ve dug at Sobibor, Daniels is systematically unearthing the traumatic Jewish past with his own hands.
Image
6. In this Nov. 11, 2014, photo, the surface of the mass graves area at the former Nazi death camp Sobibor, in eastern Poland, can be seen, including bone fragments. At Sobibor, 250,000 Jews from all over Europe were murdered during the Holocaust. Each spring for decades, bone fragments from the mass graves rise to the surface.
7. Published here for the first time, the team in September unearthed part of a ceramic cup bearing Mickey Mouse. Since 2007, several metal children’s nametags have also been discovered, which – like the Mickey Mouse cup – particularly resonate among the small circle of excavators because of the objects’ connection to Sobibor’s youngest victims.
1. Really? So why don't we see all these "bones". Laughable.
2. IOW, they're going block the alleged 'mass graves' area from legit excavation and manufacture an "ash mountain" where none exists.
3. Ah yes, they will hide the thoroughly debunked claim that they found a 'gas chamber'. And, only liars would try to hide the very 'evidence' they claim exists.
4. another contradiction: The storyline says that the Germans tried to 'hide the evidence' by burying the remains, but here they say the alleged bones were just tossed aside willy nilly. And can someone tell me how these non-existent bones would magically rise up after supposedly being buried. The ever changing lies of the 'holocau$t'.
5. "Multinational scientists"? Don't make me laugh. As if somehow that claim proves some sort of neutrality and lack of bias. That's hardly the case as it been Zionists every step of the way who have lied about what they supposedly 'found' at Sobibor. "Scientists" not.
6. Excuse me, but where are the bones of 250,000? :lol:
7. A Mickey Mouse cup? :lol: From who/where? A Jew who went to Disneyland before it was built? I see no name tags as alleged, of course.

more here:
'Gas chamber" discovered at Sobibor'
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=8887
and here:
http://codoh.com/library/document/3052/
'The “Extermination Camps” of “Aktion Reinhardt”
An Analysis and Refutation of Factitious “Evidence,” Deceptions and Flawed Argumentation of the “Holocaust Controversies” Bloggers
By Jürgen Graf , Carlo Mattogno , Thomas Kues'

This is too easy. Read on, comments invited.

- Hannover


http://www.timesofisrael.com/is-sobibor ... ath-camps/
Is Sobibor to be the new ‘Disneyland’ of Nazi death camps?
Without a fence or a guard, Polish visitors walk their pets and ride bikes while crunching human bones lying exposed on the grounds
Image

SOBIBOR, Poland – In the middle of Polish nowhere and just the size of a football field or two, the former Nazi death camp Sobibor is packed with action.

Three months ago, Polish and Israeli archeologists excavated the symbolic core of the one-time killing center, the Nazi-built gas chambers where 250,000 Jewish men, women and children from all over Europe were murdered during the Holocaust.

Above these sensitive Holocaust remains, as well as atop the adjacent area of mass graves, cyclists regularly weave their way through the former death camp, known among locals as a “shortcut” between roads. Sobibor also attracts numerous dog walkers — and even some cat walkers.

During The Times of Israel’s visit to Sobibor on November 11 – Poland’s National Day – several visitors were observed picking through the newly dug out gas chamber remains – mostly bricks – and poking around in the sand with their feet.

To say that oversight and maintenance at Sobibor are below that of most public parks would be an understatement.

Each spring thaw, like clockwork for three generations now, the grounds literally spit out the most sensitive evidence of the Holocaust – the remains of Sobibor’s victims, in the form of hundreds of bone fragments — some the size of coins — left over from the Nazis’ attempt to destroy the evidence.

After victims’ bodies were burned in open-air crematorium, the remaining bones were ground down and tossed in with the ashes. New, often gleaming white bone fragments rise up each spring, easy to pick out among the incessant animal excrement and tire tracks.

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Visitors to the former Nazi death camp Sobibor, in eastern Poland, wander through the recently excavated remains of the gas chambers on Nov. 11, 2014.

Visitors to the former Nazi death camp Sobibor, in eastern Poland, wander through the recently excavated remains of the gas chambers on Nov. 11, 2014. (photo credit: Adam Fox)

Without a fence, proper signs or a guard posted, people walk their pets on top of these human remains, literally crunching the bone fragments with their feet. Dogs and other animals relieve themselves here, and the muddy, leaf-crusted ground shows paw prints, fresh tire treads and cigarette butts everywhere.

With this combination of the world’s most inappropriate dog park and impending tourist infrastructure, some connected to Sobibor claim the site’s transformation is going too far. In the months ahead, large-scale construction will transform Sobibor forever, as authorities enact a long-incubated plan to build a museum, visitor center and various memorial structures throughout the camp.

“We don’t want this to become the Disneyland of death camps,” said Jonny Daniels, founder and executive director of the Poland-based From the Depths organization.

“The treatment of this place as one where pets relieve themselves, in addition to the construction of huge new buildings on top of camp remains, is very disturbing to many people,” Daniels said in an interview at Sobibor. “You can’t build in a death camp,” he said.

A 1987 television film called “Escape from Sobibor” — about the 1943 prisoner revolt — helped increase awareness of the camp, as have the past seven years of on-site excavations.

Now, Sobibor’s artistic development plans, approved by an international steering committee including Israel’s Yad Vashem, will permanently transform one of the least visited former Nazi death camps in Poland.

For more than a year, Daniels has engaged Poles in recovering a largely decimated Polish Jewish past. Much of the 28-year-old British-Israeli PR wiz’s attention has gone toward hunting down and recovering pre-Holocaust Jewish tombstones, many hundreds of thousands of which were used to lay roads, shore up riverbanks, and build houses all over Poland.

Like the multinational scientists who’ve dug at Sobibor, Daniels is systematically unearthing the traumatic Jewish past with his own hands.

The camp’s development authorities say new tourist infrastructure will greatly increase the public’s engagement with Sobibor. However, Holocaust history “purists” like Daniels and some of the site’s excavators have spoken out against new construction, claiming it hurts future research prospects and robs the site of authenticity.

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Seen here on Nov. 11, 2014, the so-called ‘Road to Heaven’ was the path on which 250,000 Jewish victims were sent to the gas chambers at the former Nazi death camp Sobibor, in eastern Poland. Jonny Daniels, executive director of the Poland-based From the Depths, confronts two cyclists about riding through a major site of the genocide. (photo credit:Adam Fox)

“Sobibor is surrounded by many hundreds of kilometers of forest,” said Daniels. “No tourist will mind walking 100 yards to a museum that is outside the actual camp,” he said.

Where Jewish victims were unloaded from cattle cars on “the ramp,” an asphalt parking lot will soon be paved. Tourist facilities will rise on top of the “undressing” area, where victims were herded along the so-called “Road to Heaven” that led to the gas chambers. Construction workers will dig deeper than ever at Sobibor, likely turning up new artifacts and camp features under the watchful eye of archeologists.

In the days ahead, excavators will cover the gas chamber remains with sand, according to Polish archeologist Wojtek Mazurek, in an interview with the Times at his home in Wlodawa, the town next to Sobibor.

For seven years, Mazurek has partnered with Israeli archeologist Yoram Haimi to conduct unprecedented excavations at Sobibor. Thousands of artifacts belonging to Sobibor’s victims have been uncovered, culminating with work started at the gas chambers this fall. Here, for 71 years, the killing factory’s brick foundations and a trove of personal artifacts awaited discovery.
In this Nov. 11, 2014, photo, the “results” of both the annual thaw and regular on-site dog walking can be seen in detail at the area of the mass graves at the former Nazi death camp Sobibor, in eastern Poland. At Sobibor alone, 250,000 Jews from all over Europe were murdered during the Holocaust. Each Spring for decades, hundreds of bone fragments from the mass graves rise to the surface following the thaw. (photo credit: Lena Klaudel)

Image
In this Nov. 11, 2014, photo, the surface of the mass graves area at the former Nazi death camp Sobibor, in eastern Poland, can be seen, including bone fragments. At Sobibor, 250,000 Jews from all over Europe were murdered during the Holocaust. Each spring for decades, bone fragments from the mass graves rise to the surface.

Published here for the first time, the team in September unearthed part of a ceramic cup bearing Mickey Mouse. Since 2007, several metal children’s nametags have also been discovered, which – like the Mickey Mouse cup – particularly resonate among the small circle of excavators because of the objects’ connection to Sobibor’s youngest victims.

‘If people are taking away the bricks, it means they know what we discovered there’

Within two weeks, Mazurek and team will coat the gas chamber foundation bricks with a special plastic to preserve them, at which point all the remains will be covered with sand. This will protect the bricks from both weather and vandals, said Mazurek.

Like Daniels, Mazurek is displeased by the ways in which human and pet visitors are interacting with the notorious death camp.

“It is not correct to come for a walk with your dog in this place,” said Mazurek. “If people are taking away the bricks, it means they know what we discovered there and they should be very ashamed,” Mazurek said.
The proposed memorial wall at Sobibor will circle the area of mass graves, including the prominent "ash mountain" memorial (photo courtesy: Polish-German Reconciliation Foundation)
Image

The museum and memorial construction plans for Sobibor — in the can for several years now — do not pay particular attention to the gas chambers area, largely because Soviet-era planners covered the area with asphalt half a century ago. Now that the gas chambers have been unearthed and dozens of vivid personal artifacts found there, Mazurek and others wonder what will become of this part of the camp during the overhaul.

‘When our children visit Sobibor, I hope they will not be subjected to a dog park with bikers unaware or not caring about this tiny piece of land, where a quarter of a million Jews were exterminated’

Alongside the spring’s imminent construction, Daniels hopes to lead From the Depths in staging one of its largest “actions” to date, with volunteers methodically gathering the bone fragments covering Sobibor for a proper Jewish burial. The project could be the group’s most high-profile action since January, when Daniels brought more than half of Israel’s Knesset members to Poland for a ceremony at Auschwitz-Birkenau.

Outraged by conditions at Sobibor, Daniels seeks to “restore dignity and respect” to the former death camp’s victims, regardless of how construction plans move forward.

“I hope that in the future, when our children visit Sobibor, they will not be subjected to a dog park with bikers unaware or not caring about this tiny piece of land, where a quarter of a million Jews were exterminated,” said Daniels.
At the former Nazi death camp Sobibor, in eastern Poland, a visitor walks a dog through the area of the recently excavated gas chambers, in this Nov. 11, 2014 photo. (photo credit: Lena Klaudel)

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At the former Nazi death camp Sobibor, in eastern Poland, a visitor walks a dog toward the area of the recently excavated gas chambers, in this Nov. 11, 2014 photo.
The 'holocaust' storyline is one of the most easily debunked narratives ever contrived. That is why those who question it are arrested and persecuted. That is why violent, racist, & privileged Jewish supremacists demand censorship. What sort of truth is it that crushes the freedom to seek the truth? Truth needs no protection from scrutiny.

The tide is turning.
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Re: the usual big bluff / True Believer 'Nessie' pleads his case, but without proof

Postby Hektor » 2 years 11 months ago (Mon Aug 15, 2016 2:37 pm)

Tomt wrote:Doesn't full skeleton go against the narrative though? Is this really proof of 250,000? I am not expecting 250000 bodies as proof but how many skeletons do we see? I was talking more about Treblinka though. Honestly I would expect about at least a foot of human ash if they dug down at Treblinka. Do you agree on at least a foot of ash at Treblinka would have to be found.


That's right, full skeletons of apparently grown up people. Well preserved. It corroborates the Revisionist point of view perfectly, too.
I see six skeletons. Where is the other 249,994 skeletons or cremains then?

But first one needs to answer one question. Acknowledging that this was such a big fuss for many, obviously influential people, why take 60 years, before even starting some remotely serious work on it?

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Re: the usual big bluff / True Believer 'Nessie' pleads his case, but without proof

Postby Atigun » 2 years 11 months ago (Tue Aug 16, 2016 7:50 am)

Nessie.. wrote:
Atigun wrote:It's claimed that the "reddish brown" earth was sent for chemical analysis. That's been over 3 years ago. Any results? I see NO mention of any laboratory analysis mentioned for any of the other claims of bone fragments and human cremains. Was any of that done? Was there any chain of evidence established for such evidence? No, I don't trust the glib statements of these people claiming that a dark strata of earth is human cremains. So far, Nessie, your "proof" consists of some people digging holes in the ground. If there is laboratory analysis for those materials, by all means, let's see them. Show proof, too, that the evidence actually came from the Sobibor site.


Can you show me the source of the claim of "reddish brown" earth sent for analysis? Here is a report where samples were sent for analysis from Sobibor in 1947 (page 35)

http://sobibor.info.pl/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/Sobib%C4%82%C5%82r-Bem-Mazurek-ANG..pdf

"One can come across human bones over the whole area of the camp. The
results of the expert evaluation also point towards the real function of the camp.
Thus, the Institute of Forensic Medicine at Jagiellonian University ruling states that
the examined bones are human bones. The Institute of Court Expertise in Cracow
ruling says that the sand sampled from the diggings contains an admixture of human
bone ashes and fat."

I am also confident that the "people digging holes in the ground" are archaeologists, who are trained to identify bones and so are able to pass expert opinion that bones and bone fragments found are human. When whole bones and even skeletons are found in the same place as bits of bone, I also think it is reasonable to conclude that all are human. So from the same report (page 127)

"South of grave No 7, in the trenches and by means of the boreholes that
were drilled, the excavators discovered and identified the range of another mass
grave. It is rectangular, about 25 m by 5 m in size. Its longer axis lies west-east.
The object is about 190 - 210 cm deep. In its foot-wall, the excavators found
3 layers of burnt bones, with the bone thickness of 10-15 cm, interlaced with
layers of clear, light grey sand. "

More proof of human remains mixed in with the earth.


So, you are asking me to accept the unsupported word of the immediate post war Soviet controlled Polish University and the "Institute of Court Expertise." Then I'm to accept the word of people who identify absolutely with the holyhoax. Tell me, Nessie, what is the color of the sky in your universe? Your level of confidence in these people is a matter of utter indifference to me. They either have a chain of evidence and the results from blind tests or they have so much flatulence.

The "reddish brown earth" comes from your link, Nessie.
This appears to have been deposits of fluids and fat of the victims that settled below the crematorium and soaked into the sandy ground. Soil samples from these deposits were collected for chemical analysis. Wojciech Mazurek

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Re: the usual big bluff / True Believer 'Nessie' pleads his case, but without proof

Postby Nessie.. » 2 years 11 months ago (Tue Aug 16, 2016 8:10 am)

Hektor wrote:
Tomt wrote:Doesn't full skeleton go against the narrative though? Is this really proof of 250,000? I am not expecting 250000 bodies as proof but how many skeletons do we see? I was talking more about Treblinka though. Honestly I would expect about at least a foot of human ash if they dug down at Treblinka. Do you agree on at least a foot of ash at Treblinka would have to be found.


That's right, full skeletons of apparently grown up people. Well preserved. It corroborates the Revisionist point of view perfectly, too.
I see six skeletons. Where is the other 249,994 skeletons or cremains then?

But first one needs to answer one question. Acknowledging that this was such a big fuss for many, obviously influential people, why take 60 years, before even starting some remotely serious work on it?


I keep on being asked for evidence of the bodies, I give it and then get asked again. I can only refer you to my previous posts on the archaeology at the sites.

Whilst you say no remotely serious work has been done at TII, others regard the work by Lukaszkiewicz in 1946 and Staffs Uni since 2013 as serious work by trained academics. So in 1946 work had been done to show it was a site containing many cremated human remains. In the 1960s it was memorialised. Now another investigation has been conducted. Meanwhile numerous historical studies have been conducted, again by academics. So sorry if you do not think that is serious work, others do.

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Re: the usual big bluff / True Believer 'Nessie' pleads his case, but without proof / + Sobibor

Postby Moderator » 2 years 11 months ago (Tue Aug 16, 2016 10:41 am)

Nessie:
From the guidelines which you agreed to:
If you post a quote or link from or to a book, a news article, magazine story, another website, etc., you must also comment on the quote or the link content. Tell the forum what you find wrong, compelling, unique, or important about the quote or link content. Flippant, overly brief comments are not acceptable. We want commentary and discussion.

YOU are also dodging important information which been posted. That information goes against your position, yet you attempt to avoid it. That is not fair & reasonable debate and is not tolerated here. This is your chance to refute Revisionists positions, make the most of it.
No 'dodging'. When questioned or challenged on claims, or assertions you make in a thread you must respond directly / specifically by providing the information requested in the challenge or you must leave the topic.
all guidelines:
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=358
M1
Only lies need to be shielded from debate, truth welcomes it.

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Re: the usual big bluff / True Believer 'Nessie' pleads his case, but without proof

Postby Hektor » 2 years 11 months ago (Tue Aug 16, 2016 2:06 pm)

Nessie.. wrote:..
I keep on being asked for evidence of the bodies, I give it and then get asked again. I can only refer you to my previous posts on the archaeology at the sites.


You keep on posting stuff that does not suffice, speculating on readers credulity, repeating and pointing to it again doesn't make it better.

Nessie.. wrote:
Whilst you say no remotely serious work has been done at TII, others regard the work by Lukaszkiewicz in 1946 and Staffs Uni since 2013 as serious work by trained academics. So in 1946 work had been done to show it was a site containing many cremated human remains. In the 1960s it was memorialised. Now another investigation has been conducted. Meanwhile numerous historical studies have been conducted, again by academics. So sorry if you do not think that is serious work, others do.


1946, what was there again in Poland? Ah, Soviet occupation and Communist rule in Poland. And then we have an official report on this. Something to put dirt on the arch-enemies of the Soviet Union, which has good motive to cover its own tracks. The "research" those people have done wasn't falsifiable (and was corroborated neither) and hence is out of the scope of serious science.
You say 2013? I say 1945 + 60 = 2005. And that's out of the scope of my statement.

But they keep on putting out stuff that only confirms the Revisionist thesis concerning the camps. It proves some low mortality expected during war time nothing else. Of course on the credulous they have a different effect, they're religious relics to strengthen the faith. Any rational researcher would have come up with a different conclusion: "Look, I found A, B C. They prove that a number of people have died there and were buried, or cremated in the area of the camp. But they don't prove anything remotely in the range of hundreds of thousands of gassed Jewish victims, as has been previously claimed by historians. We are sorry, but that just was atrocity propaganda from the era of World War Two,"

Do you see them doing that? It seems all they do is follow their confirmation bias lacking the integrity and honesty one should expect from a professional scientist.

On the other hand, at least they try to do something more then there previous "consensus science" and hide-and-seek with the evidence they were playing. But I think the credit here must go to the Revisionists again. They won't do a thing, if everybody did just shut up and believe the narrative like gospel.

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Re: the usual big bluff / True Believer 'Nessie' pleads his case, but without proof / + Sobibor, Treblinka

Postby Hannover » 2 years 11 months ago (Tue Aug 16, 2016 2:17 pm)

Nessie said:
I keep on being asked for evidence of the bodies, I give it and then get asked again. I can only refer you to my previous posts on the archaeology at the sites.

Whilst you say no remotely serious work has been done at TII, others regard the work by Lukaszkiewicz in 1946 and Staffs Uni since 2013 as serious work by trained academics. So in 1946 work had been done to show it was a site containing many cremated human remains. In the 1960s it was memorialised. Now another investigation has been conducted. Meanwhile numerous historical studies have been conducted, again by academics. So sorry if you do not think that is serious work, others do.

What bodies? These? :lol:
Image

Only those, although Jews claim that 250,000 Jews are buried at Sobibor?
Of those measly few we have no idea:
1. that they are Jews
2. that they were actually murdered by the Germans and did not die of natural causes
3. that they can be dated to the WWII era
The more 'evidence' that Nessie produces, the worse it becomes for his impossible & fraudulent cause.

But notice that Nessie switches to Treblinka after being bludgeoned on Sobibor. Well, this thread has certainly expanded, but anyway, here we go.

But where is the alleged enormous mass grave for the alleged 900,000' at Treblinka? as is claimed to be there by the 'holocau$t Industry'?
Nessie also cites a claimed study by Lukaszkiewicz. Unfortunately for his position this 'study by Lukaszkiewicz' has been demolished for the nonsense that is .
recommended:
' The Treblinka Holocaust'
By Arnulf Neumaier
http://codoh.com/library/document/931/
excerpt:
The efforts of the commission to find evidence for the claimed enormous mass-murder in Treblinka had therefore proven themselves to be a complete failure. The experts had a spot excavated where, according to the witness Rayzman,, a mass grave had been located, but discovered no trace of such a thing. At a place where, according to witnesses, the two 'gas chambers' had stood, they found merely layers of undisturbed earth. All of the objects they found, as well as human remains, merely showed that there had been a camp in Treblinka and that bodies had been buried or cremated there, but nothing furnished even a trace of proof for any mass murder, to say nothing of one amounting to many hundreds of thousands of people!
In October 1999, an expert team scanned the soil of the alleged extermination camp Treblinka with a ground penetrating radar. This device detects any disturbances of the soil layers, caused either by objects or by former digging activities, up to a depth of 65 feet. The data gathered showed no evidence of disturbance in the soil whatsoever.[119]
In 2002, Italian historian Carlo Mattogno and Swiss scholar Jürgen Graf published the first comprehensive monograph on Treblinka, further substantiating the thesis presented here, and providing plenty of circumstantial evidence that Treblinka was indeed a transit camp mainly for deported Polish Jews on their way to other camps, both east and south of Treblinka.[1]
To summarize the most important points of the previous:
Eyewitness testimony regarding the location, dimensions and internal structure of the supposed extermination camp Treblinka are utterly inconsistent and contradictory, and virtually impossible to reconcile with actual facts.
The alleged killing methods reveal an outlandish imagination. For this reason all the alleged killing methods other than the Diesel technique have generally been consigned to the Memory Hole.
However, Diesel exhaust gas is not suited to mass murder of human beings.
The introduction of exhaust gas from heavy Diesel engines into a hermetically sealed, brick-walled room results in the destruction of the facility in question. The same goes for the removal of the air from such rooms.
Given the size of the rooms and the great numbers of victims hermetically locked up in them, as described by the witnesses, death by asphyxiation would have occurred within a relatively short time.
The burial pits and cremation sites described would have covered an area far greater than the entire so-called death camp.
Empirical knowledge as well as the laws of physics prove that corpses cannot burn by themselves.
The quantity of wood required for cremation of the victims would have been so great that there would most definitely be Reichsbahn papers documenting the transports, but no such papers have been found to date. There is also no evidence for the deforestation of large forested areas in the vicinity of Treblinka.
The witnesses make no mention of large quantities of fuel or of their transportation to the camp and the cremation sites.
Pulverizing more than 6.6 million pounds of bones with wooden rollers, sheets of metal, and sieves is not a method suitable for the elimination of evidence for human body parts.
The umpteen million teeth cannot be destroyed at all in this manner.
A minimum of 3,200 Jewish laborers would have been needed to manage all the work involved in the alleged elimination-without-a-trace of the bodies of the Treblinka gassing victims.
The existence of these great quantities of ashes and bones and the millions of teeth could still be conclusively proven even today.

An investigation that was ordered by a Polish court and included excavations in Treblinka yielded no proof for the claims of the witnesses. No large mass graves, no human ashes, and no signs of large-scale disturbances of the soil as entailed in the creation of mass graves or burning pits were found.
Analysis of German air photos as well as recent data gathered with ground penetrating radar has shown that no major disturbances of the natural ground structure occurred within Treblinka II or in its vicinity.
It is also proven that after the camp was dismantled the Germans had engaged in no camouflage activities – such as planting lupine or trees, as witnesses have claimed.

According to the December 2, 1941, edition of the official Amtlicher Anzeiger of the German occupation forces, Treblinka was to become a labor camp.[120] One might be surprised that the German occupation powers would officially announce the setting-up of the camp, but there simply was not anything secret about labor camps. The Malkinia camp was probably a transit camp for further transport to eastern settlements in Belarus and Ukraine.

In conclusion, it should be stressed once again that disputing ('denying') the Holocaust is still a criminal offense in the Federal Republic of Germany. The 'self-evident nature' of the Treblinka Holocaust as proclaimed by the courts is based solely on 'eyewitness testimony' [aka: self serving lies].
In light of the circumstances described here, it is not surprising that by now even the staff of the Holocaust Memorial Site at Jerusalem admit[121] that the heart of the problem with the Treblinka camps is the eyewitness testimony.

and further debunking of Lukaszkiewicz:
Juergen Graf on David Irving & the Aktion Reinhardt Camps
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=8337

In November 1945, a Polish team headed by the judge Zdzislaw Lukaszkiewicz carried out an excavation on the area of the former camp Treblinka and subsequently wrote a report which was published thirty years later (!)39. On the first day of the excavations, the diggers found “a large amount of Polish, Soviet, German, Austrian and Czech coins, plus fragments of pots and pans”, but no human remains. On the second day they discovered “all kind of tableware, different household objects, shreds of garments, a large amount of more or less seriously damaged Polish documents, the badly damaged identity card of a German Jew and more coins”. On the third day, they found “a considerable amount of human ashes and human remains”. On the fourth days, they discovered “fragments of all kind of cutlery, a large number of rags, Greek, Slovak and French coins, plus the remainders of a Soviet passport”. On November 13, Lukaszkiewicz ordered the excavation to be stopped, because he considered the discovery of further graves “improbable”.
Note: none of Lukaszkiewicz 's "considerable amount of human ashes and human remains" has been or can be shown. End of story.

more of the fraud debunked here:
'Treblinka Archaeology Hoax available on DVD'
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=9772
and:
'polish investigating Judge 1945'
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=9006

It's not even close.

- Hannover

Revisionists are just the messengers, the absurd impossibility of the laughable 'holocaust' storyline is the message.

"Truth is hate to those who hate the truth."
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

Nessie..
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Re: the usual big bluff / True Believer 'Nessie' pleads his case, but without proof

Postby Nessie.. » 2 years 11 months ago (Tue Aug 16, 2016 2:31 pm)

Hektor wrote:
Nessie.. wrote:..
I keep on being asked for evidence of the bodies, I give it and then get asked again. I can only refer you to my previous posts on the archaeology at the sites.


You keep on posting stuff that does not suffice, speculating on readers credulity, repeating and pointing to it again doesn't make it better.


Please explain in detail with examples why the archaeology at Sobibor, Belzec and TII does not suffice. I agree with you that Chelmno and Maly Trostenets are examples of camps with insufficient archaeology.

Hektor wrote:
Nessie.. wrote:
Whilst you say no remotely serious work has been done at TII, others regard the work by Lukaszkiewicz in 1946 and Staffs Uni since 2013 as serious work by trained academics. So in 1946 work had been done to show it was a site containing many cremated human remains. In the 1960s it was memorialised. Now another investigation has been conducted. Meanwhile numerous historical studies have been conducted, again by academics. So sorry if you do not think that is serious work, others do.


1946, what was there again in Poland? Ah, Soviet occupation and Communist rule in Poland. And then we have an official report on this. Something to put dirt on the arch-enemies of the Soviet Union, which has good motive to cover its own tracks. The "research" those people have done wasn't falsifiable (and was corroborated neither) and hence is out of the scope of serious science.


Staffs Uni have confirmed large parts of what the 1946 Polish investigation have found. With gpr there are large areas of disturbed ground at TII with evidence of cremains lying around on the surface found during a walkover. So there is corroboration of what Lukaszkiewicz found. There has also been more than one survey at the other sites, which also corroborate each other. Please give me an example of what you would call a proper archaeological study.

Hektor wrote:You say 2013? I say 1945 + 60 = 2005. And that's out of the scope of my statement.


There was work done in the 1960s when the monument was built, but that is all I ever found out. I cannot find any detail of what the work was and what they found.

Hektor wrote:But they keep on putting out stuff that only confirms the Revisionist thesis concerning the camps. It proves some low mortality expected during war time nothing else. Of course on the credulous they have a different effect, they're religious relics to strengthen the faith. Any rational researcher would have come up with a different conclusion: "Look, I found A, B C. They prove that a number of people have died there and were buried, or cremated in the area of the camp. But they don't prove anything remotely in the range of hundreds of thousands of gassed Jewish victims, as has been previously claimed by historians. We are sorry, but that just was atrocity propaganda from the era of World War Two,"

Do you see them doing that? It seems all they do is follow their confirmation bias lacking the integrity and honesty one should expect from a professional scientist.

On the other hand, at least they try to do something more then there previous "consensus science" and hide-and-seek with the evidence they were playing. But I think the credit here must go to the Revisionists again. They won't do a thing, if everybody did just shut up and believe the narrative like gospel.


I disagree what has been found proves "low mortality" as the ash and cremains cannot be quantified. So in the same way you point out I cannot do a body count, neither can you.

So the work is to establish the numbers another way. That has been achieved with the records of mass arrivals ( for example Hofle, Zabecki, transports from Warsaw, Westerbork transit lists) and the lack of evidence for mass departures. Those records are then corroborated by the witnesses to the atrocities at the camps. So my A, B and C is archaeology, records and witnesses with a D of no evidence of mass transports elsewhere.

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Re: the usual big bluff / True Believer 'Nessie' pleads his case, but without proof / + Sobibor, Treblinka

Postby Atigun » 2 years 11 months ago (Tue Aug 16, 2016 3:07 pm)

Nessie proudly declares his belief in flatulence. "So sorry if you do not think that is serious work, others do." Indeed, Nessie, we DO believe that this is serious work. Those people are seriously trying to cover up the fact that there's no evidence of mass murder at Sobibor, Treblinka and Belzec. I see that you have also artfully dodged my question of, "Where are the results of the chemical analysis of the reddish brown earth."

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Re: the usual big bluff / True Believer 'Nessie' pleads his case, but without proof / + Sobibor, Treblinka

Postby Hannover » 2 years 11 months ago (Tue Aug 16, 2016 4:06 pm)

Nessie said:
Staffs Uni have confirmed large parts of what the 1946 Polish investigation have found. With gpr there are large areas of disturbed ground at TII with evidence of cremains lying around on the surface found during a walkover. So there is corroboration of what Lukaszkiewicz found. There has also been more than one survey at the other sites, which also corroborate each other.

Please show us your claimed GPR images. No dodging.
Please show us the "cremains lying around on the surface". No dodging.
Please show us "more than one survey at the other sites which also corroborate each other". No dodging.
Please show us excavated mass graves holding 900,000 Jews at Treblinka that Jews claim exist & excavated mass graves holding 250,000 Jews at Sobibor that Jews claim exist. No dodging.

Hey, you and those like you are the ones that make the claims. It's time to put up or shut up.

- Hannover

Revisionists are just the messengers, the absurd impossibility of the laughable 'holocaust' storyline is the message.

"Truth is hate to those who hate the truth."
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Re: the usual big bluff / True Believer 'Nessie' pleads his case, but without proof / + Sobibor, Treblinka

Postby Kingfisher » 2 years 11 months ago (Tue Aug 16, 2016 5:05 pm)

Nessie,

I have not answered your post in reply to mine as I have been busy and in the meantime Atigun and Hannover have already largely covered the points I would want to make.

So, if you seriously think there is evidence at Treblinka 2 of pits capable of holding the uncremated remains of 700,000 people please produce.it. You claim that Sturdy Colls produced it, yet she made no such claim in her videos or in the article you quoted. Are you confusing the LIDAR, which revealed a few small pits, which she appears not to have investigated, with GPR which can tell us what is below the surface at least to a metre or two?

Also explain how they were able to first bury then excavate 700,00 corpses, and then burn almost 900,00 corpses in the space of a few months. To give you an idea of the logistics involved, The capacity of Wembley Stadium is 90,000 so we are talking of burying and digging up 8 times this number, or, if as a Scot you prefer 12 Hampden Parks or Celtic Parks. Then burn a total of almost 10 Wembleys, getting on for the combined populations of Glasgow and Edinburgh. Using wood of which there is no record, and no one in the vicinity, not even partisans, thought to photograph the plume of smoke.

Tell us also how the sheer volume/mass of 700,000 corpses could be buried within the restricted space of the camp. The highest figure that has been cited for corpses per cubic metre is 8, which I find difficult to credit but I will accept for the purposes of the argument. I'm going to work from 7 as I think it a little more credible and it simplifies the calculations. 700,000 bodies therefore represent 100,000 cubic metres. Even if pits were dug five metres deep, that gives a surface area of 20,000 square metres, say a surface 200 metres by 100 metres. But we aren't there yet. How are you going to get the bodies into the middle of that pit? You will need pathways wide enough for an excavator to move along them without getting so close that it causes the edges of the pit to collapse. You will also need space for the excavator to manoeuvre and for the extracted earth to be piled. So you can probably comfortably at least double that area. And then there must be no trace detectable even by LIDAR 70 years later, even though the smaller pits which no one disputes were clear as day.

As I recall Dr Sturdy Colls' TV programmes, she found some small pits with LIDAR, but nothing remotely on this scale. If you have evidence of ground disturbance on the scale I have described please present it. Quantified. Hard evidence, please. No more appeals to authority on the grounds of CSC's or anyone else's supposed qualifications and utter impartiality.

I loved the assertion in the article you quoted, that CSC's work was "ground-breaking". That's the very thing it most certainly wasn't.

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Re: the usual big bluff / True Believer 'Nessie' pleads his case, but without proof / + Sobibor, Treblinka

Postby Nessie.. » 2 years 11 months ago (Wed Aug 17, 2016 11:40 am)

I have not come here to debate whether or not there is evidence to prove mass graves at the various AR camps. I just came here to show you some of my evidence to prove I am not bluffing and can evidence my claims.


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