the usual big bluff / True Believer 'Nessie' pleads his case, but without proof / + Sobibor, Treblinka

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Re: the usual big bluff / True Believer 'Nessie' pleads his case, but without proof / + Sobibor, Treblinka

Postby Dresden » 3 years 2 months ago (Wed Aug 17, 2016 12:00 pm)

Nessie.. wrote:I have not come here to debate whether or not there is evidence to prove mass graves at the various AR camps. I just came here to show you some of my evidence to prove I am not bluffing and can evidence my claims.


You sound like you're throwing in the towel just when this thread was getting interesting.
I hope not.....I would sure like to see your answers to some of the challenges on this thread.

Thank you!
Maybe, just maybe, they believe what they are telling you about the 'holocaust', but maybe, just maybe, their contempt for your intelligence and your character is beyond anything you could ever have imagined. -- Bradley Smith

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Re: the usual big bluff / True Believer 'Nessie' pleads his case, but without proof / + Sobibor, Treblinka

Postby Hannover » 3 years 2 months ago (Wed Aug 17, 2016 12:03 pm)

Nessie.. wrote:I have not come here to debate whether or not there is evidence to prove mass graves at the various AR camps. I just came here to show you some of my evidence to prove I am not bluffing and can evidence my claims.

How silly.
As the record here clearly shows, you have tried to debate, you've had your lunch stolen, and now as a way to dodge challenges you retreat by saying you really weren't trying to debate. You've been cornered and now tuck tail. Funny stuff, sir.

Your 'evidence', as you call it, is simply empty claims which have been shown to be utterly fraudulent. The record is here for all to see.

- Hannover

Revisionists are just the messengers, the absurd impossibility of the laughable 'holocaust' storyline is the message.
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Re: the usual big bluff / True Believer 'Nessie' pleads his case, but without proof / + Sobibor, Treblinka

Postby Werd » 3 years 2 months ago (Wed Aug 17, 2016 12:20 pm)

Kingfisher wrote:Also explain how they were able to first bury then excavate 700,00 corpses, and then burn almost 900,00 corpses in the space of a few months. To give you an idea of the logistics involved, The capacity of Wembley Stadium is 90,000 so we are talking of burying and digging up 8 times this number, or, if as a Scot you prefer 12 Hampden Parks or Celtic Parks. Then burn a total of almost 10 Wembleys, getting on for the combined populations of Glasgow and Edinburgh. Using wood of which there is no record, and no one in the vicinity, not even partisans, thought to photograph the plume of smoke.

Tell us also how the sheer volume/mass of 700,000 corpses could be buried within the restricted space of the camp.

Perhaps you are thinking of Belzec where IT WAS claimed that ALL the bodies were successfully buried before being exhumed. The claim for Belzec is 600,000 at a minimum. I am unsure if that is how it was for Treblinka. Here is a clip from an old debate I had with Nessie. It's an old post of mine.
Nessie doesn't know how to properly read Suchomel and Eberl.

this quote I had from October proves Jews were not shot UNTIL the corpses were piled up too high.
The camp received its first shipment of victims, 6,500 Jews from the Warsaw Ghetto, on July 22, 1942. The gas chambers became operational the following day, July 23, 1942. Shipments continued on a daily basis thereafter, usually ranging from about 4,000 to 7,000 victims per day, Jews from the ghettos of Poland, mainly Warsaw, most of whom were immediately sent to the gas chambers. Hundreds of the prisoners died from starvation, dehydration or suffocation while in transit to the camp in the cramped rail cars.

Eberl's poor organizational skills soon caused the operation of Treblinka to turn disastrous. At the very beginning, the corpses were buried in mass graves, but within days the burial pits were overflowing with bodies, and corpses were instead piled up in camp II because the workers lacked sufficient time to bury them. At the same time, the gas chambers continually broke down. Therefore, the SS resorted to shooting incoming Jews in the arrival area of the camp and piling bodies throughout the camp.[11]

http://www.answers.com/topic/treblinka-extermination-camp

At the same time the pits were overflowing with bodies and bodies were piling up inside the camp, the chambers were breaking down. In other words, the bodies were piling up in the camp BECAUSE the chambers kept breaking down and then going up again. They were inconsistent chambers. Therefore, the decision was later taken to shoot Jews after the piles of extra bodies were already made. They weren't shooting Jews, WHILE the bodies were being piled up next to the already overflowing pits. They were shooting Jews AFTER the bodies were already piled up for a few days next to the pits. Someone needs to learn to read properly. Therefore gassed only bodies were piled up in the camp for more than one or two days. Actually three at least. AND NOBODY WAS MOVING THEM TO PITS THUS RE-SETTING THE LIVIDITY CLOCK FOR THOSE CORPSES ON THE TOP, so your argument about how lividity is stalled by movement of the corpse, does not apply in this context.
Suchomel’s description conforms to the worst stereotypes of historical- judiciary propaganda, with additions of fanciful details that makes his “testimony” even more tenuous. Suchomel spoke of mass graves that were six to seven meters deep and crammed with bodies, but strangely enough he saw this “just once, the first day [une seule fois, le premier jour].”2523 According to him, a single pit contained 80,000 bodies! 2524 As for the “chaos” prevailing during the camp’s initial period of operations, he stated:2525

“Il arrivait toujours plus de gens, toujours plus qu’on n’avait pas les moyens de tuer. Ces Messieurs voulaient vider le ghetto de Varsovie au plus vite. Les chambres à gaz avaient une trop faible capacité. Les petites chambres à gaz. Les Juifs devaient attendre leur tour un jour, deux jours, trois jours”

“More people kept coming, always more, whom we hadn’t the facilities to kill. The brass was in a rush to clean out the Warsaw ghetto. The gas chambers couldn’t handle the load. The small gas chambers. The Jews had to wait their turn for a day, two days, three days.”

This also applied to the corpses: “the corpses piled up around the gas chambers and stayed there for days [les corps s’amoncelaient autour des chambres à gas et y demeuraient pendant des jours].”2526 This is in contrast not only to the testimonies left by “survivors,” starting with Wiernik – at Lanzmann’s assertion that Treblinka had a daily extermination capacity of 18,000 Jews, Suchomel replies that this figure is exaggerated, giving instead as the real capacity “from twelve to fifteen thousand [de douze à quinze mille].”2527

2523 C. Lanzmann, Shoah, op. cit., p. 46.
2524 Treblinka-Prozess – Urteil LG Düsseldorf vom 3.9.1965, 8 I Ks 2/64, in: http://www.holocausthistory.org/german- ... teil.shtml (new window)
2525 C. Lanzmann, Shoah, op. cit., p. 46.
2526 Ibid., p. 47.
2527 Ibid., p. 96.

pages 1127-1128 pdf version of Mattogno/Graf/Kues "TECOAR"

So at least some of the piled up, gassed bodies on the top would have turned blotchy red from livor mortis. First the bodies were piled up after at least three days because at the same time the chambers were breaking down. Why did the chambers breaking down and the piling up of bodies happen at the same time? Well obviously because one is connected to the other. With this problem at hand of broken chambers, CAUSING the bodies to pile up, THEN jews started getting shot. Comprende? Claiming that shot bodies were mixed in with gassed bodies because the Nazis still had Jews to kill when the chambers were breaking down, ignores this quote:
“More people kept coming, always more, whom we hadn’t the facilities to kill. The brass was in a rush to clean out the Warsaw ghetto. The gas chambers couldn’t handle the load. The small gas chambers. The Jews had to wait their turn for a day, two days, three days.”

So they clearly weren't shooting Jews to mix them in with gassed Jews. Jews stayed alive for two or three days waiting to be gassed. No bullets yet! Nessie needs to let his narrative speak for itself instead of twisting it around to keep himself from losing a debate.

Q.E.D.

Now this refers to the initial stage and the early days of Treblinka. I can't recall when and where it was determined that they got all the bodies in the ground AND THEN started digging them all up.

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Re: the usual big bluff / True Believer 'Nessie' pleads his case, but without proof / + Sobibor, Treblinka

Postby Werd » 3 years 2 months ago (Wed Aug 17, 2016 12:40 pm)

Standard wikipedia claim.
Cremation pits

The Germans became aware of the political danger associated with the mass burial of corpses in early 1943, when they discovered the Polish victims of the Soviet Katyn massacre of 1940 near occupied Smolensk. Those 22,000 officers' bodies were well preserved underground, attesting to the Soviet mass murder. By April 1943, Nazi propaganda began to draw the attention of the international community to this war crime using newsfilm.[105] The Germans brought in a group of twelve forensic experts from various European countries to prove their claim.[106] The Katyn Commission examined the bodies in detail, and the summary report on the findings of the commission concluded that the Soviets were solely responsible.[107] The Germans attempted to use the commission's results to drive a wedge between the Allies.[108] Subsequently, the secret orders to exhume the corpses buried at Treblinka and burn them came directly from the Nazi leadership, possibly from Himmler, who was very concerned about covering up Nazi crimes. The cremations began shortly after his visit to the camp in late February or early March 1943.[109]

To incinerate bodies, there were large cremation pits constructed at Camp 3 within Treblinka II.[n] The burning pyres were used to cremate the new corpses along with the old ones, which had to be dug up as they had been buried during the first six months of the camp's operation. Built under the instructions of Herbert Floß, the camp's cremation expert, the pits consisted of railroad rails laid as grates on blocks of concrete. The bodies were placed on rails over wood, splashed with petrol, and burned.

Old corpses were buried whereas newer ones were not. They were just piling up. So they had not even properly invested time into digging enough burial pits beforehand.

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Re: the usual big bluff / True Believer 'Nessie' pleads his case, but without proof / + Sobibor, Treblinka

Postby Kingfisher » 3 years 2 months ago (Wed Aug 17, 2016 12:41 pm)

Werd wrote:
Kingfisher wrote:Also explain how they were able to first bury then excavate 700,00 corpses, and then burn almost 900,00 corpses in the space of a few months. To give you an idea of the logistics involved, The capacity of Wembley Stadium is 90,000 so we are talking of burying and digging up 8 times this number, or, if as a Scot you prefer 12 Hampden Parks or Celtic Parks. Then burn a total of almost 10 Wembleys, getting on for the combined populations of Glasgow and Edinburgh. Using wood of which there is no record, and no one in the vicinity, not even partisans, thought to photograph the plume of smoke.

Tell us also how the sheer volume/mass of 700,000 corpses could be buried within the restricted space of the camp.

Perhaps you are thinking of Belzec where IT WAS claimed that ALL the bodies were successfully buried before being exhumed. The claim for Belzec is 600,000 at a minimum. The claim is that there were never enough pits in Treblinka to even hold SOME of the total claimed corpses. Due to the frequency of gassing and those dying on the trains in arrival, they couldn't or didn't dig pits fast enough; hence bodies were piled up for days outside the gas chambers and adjacent to overflowing pits or pits that were being worked on in haste. So that would mean that for days on end, people should see plenty of patchy red bodies either from the high COHb causing the skin to turn a bright cherry red, or darker red patches from the livor mortis. Nobody testified to this. Instead they testified to freshly gassed corpses being yellow (Wiernick), grey and peeling (Rosenberg) or black faced and blue bellied (Rajchman). Blood was also supposed to be a first class combustible (Rachel Auerbach).


I'm working from memory but I thought the authorised version was that 700K of a total 870K were first buried, but if I am mistaken I am happy to be corrected. Just checked Wikiopedia and they appear to dodge the issue of numbers:
A small number of men who were not killed immediately upon arrival became its Jewish slave-labour units called Sonderkommandos,[13] forced to bury the victims' bodies in mass graves. These bodies were exhumed in 1943 and cremated on large open-air pyres along with the bodies of new victims.


Even if I am mistaken my arguments would apply to Belzec, then?

[EDIT} Just found this on Wikipedia:
Image

Those claimed pits look pretty small.
Last edited by Kingfisher on Wed Aug 17, 2016 12:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: the usual big bluff / True Believer 'Nessie' pleads his case, but without proof / + Sobibor, Treblinka

Postby Werd » 3 years 2 months ago (Wed Aug 17, 2016 12:51 pm)

Yes. Belzec did not have the space to hold 600,000 bodies. Mattogno proved this here. 4. “Volume of the Mass Graves, Human and Wood Ashes”, but of course Muehlenkamp and co will not let it go. They wrote an entire series responding to the last two chapters in The Extermination Camps of Aktion Reinhardt co authored with Thomas Kues and Juergen Graf.

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Re: the usual big bluff / True Believer 'Nessie' pleads his case, but without proof / + Sobibor, Treblinka

Postby borjastick » 3 years 2 months ago (Wed Aug 17, 2016 2:06 pm)

Nessie.. wrote:I have not come here to debate whether or not there is evidence to prove mass graves at the various AR camps. I just came here to show you some of my evidence to prove I am not bluffing and can evidence my claims.


Let the back pedalling begin...
'Of the four million Jews under Nazi control in WW2, six million died and alas only five million survived.'

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Re: the usual big bluff / True Believer 'Nessie' pleads his case, but without proof / + Sobibor, Treblinka

Postby Atigun » 3 years 2 months ago (Wed Aug 17, 2016 3:24 pm)

Nessie.. wrote:I have not come here to debate whether or not there is evidence to prove mass graves at the various AR camps. I just came here to show you some of my evidence to prove I am not bluffing and can evidence my claims.


IOW, Nessie, you came to CODOH to show us some holes in the ground.

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Re: the usual big bluff / True Believer 'Nessie' pleads his case, but without proof / + Sobibor, Treblinka

Postby Hannover » 3 years 2 months ago (Wed Aug 17, 2016 5:46 pm)

This is Nessie's mass grave for the claimed 800,000 Jews supposedly still buried at Treblinka. :lol:

Image
Read on for more.

Werd previously mentioned Suchomel's claims above. Man do we have the goods on him.
from:
'Franz Suchomel's 'confession' demolished by Jean-Francois Beaulieu'
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=9836

Here's the OP, more follows it, see link.

Also search Suchomel using our search function for much, much more.

- Hannover

Revisionists are just the messengers, the absurd impossibility of the laughable 'holocaust' storyline is the message.

Hannover wrote:Frans Suchomel is a biggie for the 'holocaust' scam. His statements are used as 'proof' for the impossible 'gassings' at the transit camp, Treblinka.
Suchomel made ridiculous statements about Treblinka in Claude Lanzmann's film 'Shoah'. Below, Jean-Francois Beaulieu takes them apart.

You're gonna love the laughable hole in the ground alleged to hold 800, 000 Jews.

This is too easy.

- Hannover

http://www.vho.org/tr/2003/2/Beaulieu166-168.html
Holocaust Movie Shoah Exposed as Propaganda
About the Shoa-Interview with the alleged Treblinka SS-Man Franz Suchomel

By Jean-Francois Beaulieu

SS-Unterscharführer Franz Suchomel is an important witness who is said to confirm the reality of mass gassings, in his case regarding the alleged extermination camp Treblinka. Claude Lanzmann, a French Jew and filmmaker, succeeded to get a 850,000$ subvention from the Israeli government in 1977[1] to produce a holocaust 'documentary' whose aim was mainly to convince skeptics in a period where revisionism had started to be a concern for some people. Subsequently, additional funds were provided by the French government and private sources. The film was finished only in 1985, 8 years later.

In the movie's acknowledgment section, no word is uttered about the fact that it received massive funding from Israel. And what is even more revealing, no word is mentioned either that all the German witnesses that agreed to participate as witnesses in this movie received 3,000 DM, but had to agree not to reveal this fact for 30 years.[2] Thus, the German witnesses 'testified' for money.

The movie Shoah is terribly long (9 1/2 hours), something that can partially explain its success. One of the key testimonies used today is that of Franz Suchomel, a former SS guard, born in 1903, who had already spent a few years in jail a decade before. Due to his health condition it is probable that Suchomel died somewhere in the early 80's.

Before discussing Suchomel's testimony in detail, I will briefly review the extermination charges for Treblinka and the reasons that make such a story improbable.

In brief, the story is that between summer 1942 and summer 1943, some 800,000 mainly Polish Jews were deported to the Treblinka camp and vanished without a trace in the gas chambers over a period of 13 to 14 months. The bulk of them were allegedly killed prior to the spring of 1943 and buried in mass graves from August 1942 onward. In the spring of 1943, the corpses were excavated and burned on open fires in order to remove any trace of the crime, although gassing continued on a smaller scale. Treblinka was supposed to be a 'pure' extermination camp, which is why we wouldn't expect post-war testimonies. However, the story offered is that an uprising took place at the end of the camp's existence (August 1943), i.e., when most of the corpses were already destroyed, and that about 50 regular inmates succeeded to escape, which enabled them later to testify about the crime the Germans had try to cover.[3]

Someone who reads the available Holocaust literature may think that the contradictions and inconsistencies are not exceeding the degree which one would expect from a witness whose memory unavoidably faded after so many years, but the actual literature is just presenting a sanitized version. Mark Weber and Andrew Allen,[4] Arnulf Neumaier,[5] and in particular Carlo Mattogno and Jürgen Graf[6] have presented a much more exhaustive and balanced review of the early testimonies, which are in fact much more contradictory, inconsistent, and outright impossible than they are usually presented in the mainstream literature.

The technical absurdity of the claim that Diesel exhaust gases were used as a poison gas for mass murder in Treblinka was best explained and refuted by Friedrich Paul Berg[7] and Walter Lüftl,[8].

Image
Claude Lanzmann

The already mentioned study by Arnulf Neumaier also exposes in detail the difficulties and absurdities associated with the cremation of bodies on open fires and the claimed size of the required mass graves according to the stories told by the 'survivors.' I will comment here only the weirdest aspect concerning Herbert Floss, this specialist who allegedly came from Germany to advise camp commander Stangl on the best way to burn corpses 'economically:' According to testimonies, the key for a successful incineration almost without or with very little fuel was allegedly to use the corpses of women, who were said to have burned all by themselves, to ignite the corpses of children, elderly people, and men stacked on top of those female corpses. Certified engineer A. Neumaier shows in detail the absurdity and technical impossibility of the mass cremation scenarios described by the witnesses. This fishy story was perhaps invented to circumvent the problem that no records exist at all which would prove the shipment of large quantities of fuel to Treblinka over the years 1942-1943. But I won't go into details here.

It is well known that many atrocity stories circulated about Treblinka during the alleged event and that both the Polish and the Jewish resistance diffused actively those claims. We know also from the author Yuri Suhl,[9] that in "nearly each ghetto and each camp" there were Jewish cells of resistance, and that "thousands of Jewish fighters were hiding in the Polish forest to harass the Germans," attacking munitions convoys, German soldiers, etc.[10] Today, some Jewish organizations accuse the Poles for their failure to attack Treblinka during the war, but even the Jewish partisans did neither consider it necessary to attack Treblinka's weak garrison nor to dynamite the railroad system that was leading to it.

Neither the Polish resistance nor the Jewish resistance tried to take photos of the huge amount of corpses dragged out of the gas chambers or burned in the open during those months. It is claimed that the inner fence was kept covered with tree branches to conceal the activities within, but Treblinka was partly surrounded by trees. Climbing on one of these with a zoom lens was thus possible. The resistance knew that a photo of mass graves or burning pyres, with recognizable features like wire fences, buildings, and SS guards was priceless if they wanted to back their charge. They had one year to do it, but did not do anything. Even the photo album of former camp commander Kurt Franz is useless in this case.

Image
Alleged mass grave in Treblinka with several corpses: The only forensic "evidence" for the murder of 800,000 humans![11]

It is claimed that the communists discovered seven meters high heaps of human ashes and bones covering a large area when they reached the camp, but they didn't consider it necessary to invite neutral representatives from the Red Cross to back their charge as the Germans did in Katyn. Some isolated human remains were indeed found and photographed, but we shouldn't be surprised about this considering that hundreds or even thousands of Jews certainly perished during their transport.

Let me now go back to Shoah. In the sequence discussed here, we have this man, whether it is Suchomel or not, who gives an interview in his apartment. A map of Treblinka is displayed a few meters away from him and he often uses a stick to point at locations during his description. The interview is conducted in such a way that one could consider Suchomel as a nice guy, human, who was led into a nightmare that he never wished.

Lanzmann explained in the New York Times, October 20, 1985, page H-17, how he succeeded to film Suchomel: his female assistant was carrying a bag in which a camera was hidden. A little hole allowed the camera to record those sequences. Occasionally a mini van was brought to the front of the building, where technicians were watching on their monitor the images which are normally retransmitted in real time.

If one places oneself in the shoes of the assistant, it is obviously necessary to be careful since such an interview is a unique chance. Someone who is taking those pictures should certainly bear in the mind that each gesture is important and that the man must not suspect anything. There is no second chance. It must also be expected that the pictures recorded by a camera hidden in a bag will sometimes be blurred and out of focus, which would not always show what is important, since it is almost impossible to aim properly with such a camera. However, if one puts down the bag with the camera, the resulting picture is necessarily inflexible, always showing the same focus.[12]

And indeed: The quality of these sequences is extremely poor, although one can recognize roughly a face in spite of the blurred aspect. In contrast to that, Schalling's figure is pretty clear when he is interviewed under similar conditions later in the movie (Schalling is another former National Socialist interviewed by Lanzmann, although he is not supposed to have been involved in Treblinka.[13])

At the beginning of the interview, Suchomel is asking not to reveal his name, so he is not supposed to be aware that a camera is used. However, already the subsequent exchange of words is strange:[14]

"Lanzmann (interviewer): Are we ready?

Suchomel: Yes. We can begin."

Peculiarities

Suchomel's statement has two claims in particular which render the entire testimony very suspicious:

1. In one scene he reports-in contrast to all other witnesses-that the Germans had to remove the corpses in Treblinka all by themselves:[15]

"No one wanted to clean it out [the rotting heaps of corpses]. The Jews preferred to be shot rather than work there. [...] So Wirth went there himself with a few Germans and had long belts rigged up that were wrapped around the dead torsos to pull them. [...] they themselves helped with the cleanup. Lanzmann: Which Germans did that? Suchomel: Some of our guards who were assigned up there. Lanzmann: The Germans themselves? Suchomel: They had to. Lanzmann: They were in command! Suchomel: They were in command, but they were also commanded. Lanzmann: I think the Jews did it. Suchomel: In that case, the Germans had to lend a hand."

2. And of course, in Suchomel's account as well, those victims led to the smoking and stinking burning pits, where an uninterrupted shooting is going on, noticed nothing unless they actually stood at the very edge of the burning pits; and in Suchomel's story as well, the corpses burned almost without any fuel:[16]

"Suchomel: [...] Until they reached the end, they saw nothing. Then they'd see the dead in the pit. They were forced to strip, to sit on a sandbank, and were killed with a shot in the neck. They fell into the pit. There was always a fire in the pit. With rubbish, paper and gasoline, people burn very well."

If Lanzmann wanted to create the impression that his interview with Suchomel was not being taped, why then such a strange question at the very beginning of the interview? Ready for what? Formless chats do not have an official beginning! Since I must assume that most readers have not seen the movie, I will analyze in more detail what happened during this interview. For those who want to check it out, since literal statements are less strong than real images: Suchomel's interview is located on the second cassette of the Shoah series.

During an important portion of the interview, the camera is at the same level as Lanzmann's shoulders. We see it when Lanzmann raise his hand with a cigarette very close to the lens. However, the image is not even shaking lightly during the interview, as one would expect if a person is holding the bag. That the bag is moved around at least once in a while is evident because this interview consists of different camera focuses. At one point, we have a closer picture, where the man (Suchomel?) is looking directly into the camera, fixating it during a long period of time while talking. The question is, of course: why does he look at a totally unimportant bag?

Several times the man who is filmed will take his stick to describe a location on the map. At this moment we have a very close-up view of the map, from 30 or 40 centimeters, and when the camera turns back to the man's face, we know that this was not due to a later enlargement. But before that, when the tip of the stick moves up and down or in diagonal to show some elements on the map, the camera follows carefully the movement from a very short distance to catch the wand. Vertically, horizontally, in diagonal. This happens about 12 minutes after the beginning of the interview and lasts about 12 or 13 seconds. Following the movement of the wand from such a distance to catch a minor detail is evidently useless and more than risky and revealing for somebody who is trying to hide a camera in a bag. But such a scene happens several times during the interview, each time he uses his stick, the camera is getting very close to the map, following each movement of the stick, even in diagonal. Then it turns back to his face when he goes back to his chair. But it misses the head a little bit for 1 or 2 seconds: a bit too high, too much to the left, from a distance of a few meters. But the camera turns immediately to catch most of his face correctly for the rest of the interview, and this several times. I imagine that some people have a third eye.

The first time that I saw Suchomel's interview I was struck by this, thus I replayed the same scenes perhaps two dozen times, each time with a bag near me. Each time I tried to imagine how I should handle the bag without raising Suchomel's suspicion and how the man in front of me could be blind enough not to discover that something very odd was happening. After 20 or 25 times perhaps I gave up.

Claude Lanzmann seems to be dishonest. Either regarding his claim that the interview was taped with a camera hidden in the bag of his assistant and without the knowledge of the interviewed man, or regarding his claim that the interviewed man was Suchomel-or regarding both claims.

Notes
[1] The Jewish Journal, New York, June 27, 1986, p. 3, and the Jewish Telegraph Agency, June 20, 1986.
[2] "Ce que je n'ai pas dit dans Shoah," VSD, interview by Jean-Pierre Chabrol, July 9, 1987, especially p. 11; this information was first discovered and published by Robert Faurisson, Journal of Historical Review, 8(1) (1988), pp. 85-92, here p. 87.
[3] First published in German in Vierteljahreshefte für freie Geschichtsforschung 4(2) (2000), pp. 168f.
[4] The most frequently quoted mainstream books on Treblinka are probably: Yitzhak Arad, Belzec, Sobibor, Treblinka. The Operation Reinhard Death Camps, Indiana University Press, Bloomington and Indianapolis 1987; Alexander Donat (ed.), The Death Camp Treblinka, Holocaust Library, New York 1979.
[5] Weber, Mark, Andrew Allen, "Treblinka", in: Journal of Historical Review, 12(2) (1992), pp. 133-158.
[6] "The Treblinka Holocaust", in: Ernst Gauss (ed.), Dissecting the Holocaust, The Growing Critique of „Truth" and „Memory", Theses & Dissertation Press, Capshaw, AL, 2000, S. 467-495.
[7] Treblinka. Vernichtungslager oder Durchgangslager?, Castle Hill Publishers, Hastings 2002.
[8] Friedrich P. Berg, "The Diesel Gas Chambers: Ideal for Torture - Absurd for Murder", in op. cit. (note ), pp. 435-465.
[9] W. Lüftl, "Sollen Lügen künftig Pflicht sein?", Deutschland in Geschichte und Gegenwart 41(1) (1993), pp. 13f. At the time this paper was written, Walter Lüftl was President of the Austrian Association of Civil Engineers.
[10] Yuri Suhl, The story of the Jewish resistance in Nazi Europe, Anthology on Armed Jewish Resistance (1939-1945), Vol. 4, 1984, pp. 73ff.
[11] Ibid., p. 75, and Vol. 2, p. 48 and 609.
[12] From Yitzhak Arad (ed.), The Pictorial History of the Holocaust, Macmillan, New York 1990, p. 299, http://www.fmv.ulg.ac.be/schmitz/Holoca ... bln01.html.
[13] With today's technology, almost anything could be remote controlled, but back in the late 70s and early 80s, cameras and remote controls were rather big and clumsy and not easily available!
[14] Schalling testified about the alleged use of the so-called gas wagons close to the camp Chelmo.
[15] Ibid., p. 52.
[16] This was taken from the book Claude Lanzmann, Shoah: An Oral History of the Holocaust, Pantheon Books, New York 1985 pp. 56f.
[17] Ibid., p. 63.

Source: The Revisionist 1(2) (2003), pp. 166-168.
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Re: the usual big bluff / True Believer 'Nessie' pleads his case, but without proof / + Sobibor, Treblinka

Postby Werd » 3 years 2 months ago (Wed Aug 17, 2016 6:09 pm)

It is well known that many atrocity stories circulated about Treblinka during the alleged event and that both the Polish and the Jewish resistance diffused actively those claims. We know also from the author Yuri Suhl,[9] that in "nearly each ghetto and each camp" there were Jewish cells of resistance, and that "thousands of Jewish fighters were hiding in the Polish forest to harass the Germans," attacking munitions convoys, German soldiers, etc.[10] Today, some Jewish organizations accuse the Poles for their failure to attack Treblinka during the war, but even the Jewish partisans did neither consider it necessary to attack Treblinka's weak garrison nor to dynamite the railroad system that was leading to it.

Neither the Polish resistance nor the Jewish resistance tried to take photos of the huge amount of corpses dragged out of the gas chambers or burned in the open during those months. It is claimed that the inner fence was kept covered with tree branches to conceal the activities within, but Treblinka was partly surrounded by trees. Climbing on one of these with a zoom lens was thus possible. The resistance knew that a photo of mass graves or burning pyres, with recognizable features like wire fences, buildings, and SS guards was priceless if they wanted to back their charge. They had one year to do it, but did not do anything. Even the photo album of former camp commander Kurt Franz is useless in this case.

It is claimed that the communists discovered seven meters high heaps of human ashes and bones covering a large area when they reached the camp, but they didn't consider it necessary to invite neutral representatives from the Red Cross to back their charge as the Germans did in Katyn. Some isolated human remains were indeed found and photographed, but we shouldn't be surprised about this considering that hundreds or even thousands of Jews certainly perished during their transport.

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I love how Jewish sonderkommandos use cameras in Auschwitz but they have to be careful with them to not be noticed. Yet when the Poles and the Soviets take over the land of the Treblinka camp, amnesia sets in and they forget to document everything properly. Perhaps there wasn't anything there like they were claiming?

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Re: the usual big bluff / True Believer 'Nessie' pleads his case, but without proof / + Sobibor, Treblinka

Postby Nessie.. » 3 years 2 months ago (Thu Aug 18, 2016 7:38 am)

Steve F wrote:
Nessie.. wrote:I have not come here to debate whether or not there is evidence to prove mass graves at the various AR camps. I just came here to show you some of my evidence to prove I am not bluffing and can evidence my claims.


You sound like you're throwing in the towel just when this thread was getting interesting.
I hope not.....I would sure like to see your answers to some of the challenges on this thread.

Thank you!


The reason why I am not going to participate on other threads here is due to the way my posts are moderated. I will and already have been responding to posts on [another site] where my posts do appear.

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Re: the usual big bluff / True Believer 'Nessie' pleads his case, but without proof / + Sobibor, Treblinka

Postby Moderator » 3 years 2 months ago (Thu Aug 18, 2016 11:21 am)

Nonsense, Nessie.
Reasons have been fully explained, numerous times. See notes to Nessie.
BTW, the excuses you make at that other site are fully rebutted there.
We have a higher standard than other sites, see guidelines which you agreed to.
Get serious and bring it.
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Only lies need to be shielded from debate, truth welcomes it.

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Re: the usual big bluff / True Believer 'Nessie' pleads his case, but without proof / + Sobibor, Treblinka

Postby hermod » 3 years 2 months ago (Thu Aug 18, 2016 10:43 pm)

Hannover wrote:
About the Shoa-Interview with the alleged Treblinka SS-Man Franz Suchomel

By Jean-Francois Beaulieu

If Lanzmann wanted to create the impression that his interview with Suchomel was not being taped, why then such a strange question at the very beginning of the interview? Ready for what? Formless chats do not have an official beginning!


And if Lanzmann wanted to create the impression that the interview was not being taped, he could have at least pretended to take notes. Seeing Lanzmann write nothing while Suchomel was providing him with plenty of details about processes, numbers, names and places, made no sense. At no point in the interview, did Suchomel interrupt Lanzmann with a surprised 'You don't write what I'm saying, Herr Lanzmann? What kind of journalist are you???'. Odd...
"But, however the world pretends to divide itself, there are ony two divisions in the world to-day - human beings and Germans. – Rudyard Kipling, The Morning Post (London), June 22, 1915

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Re: the usual big bluff / True Believer 'Nessie' pleads his case, but without proof / + Sobibor, Treblinka

Postby Atigun » 3 years 2 months ago (Fri Aug 19, 2016 8:58 am)

The reason Nessie isn't going to respond to any questions on CODOH is because he hasn't any answers. For example, he shows a photo of a few objects held in someone's hand and says, "See, those are bones and they prove that 250,000 Jews were killed at Sobibor." Really? Where is the chain of evidence? Where is the laboratory analysis proving them human bones? Why does so few objects "prove" that 250,000 people were killed at Sobibor? You're empty, Nessie. You've got zip, zero, nada.

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Re: the usual big bluff / True Believer 'Nessie' pleads his case, but without proof / + Sobibor, Treblinka

Postby Nessie.. » 3 years 2 months ago (Sat Aug 20, 2016 8:23 am)

Atigun wrote:The reason Nessie isn't going to respond to any questions on CODOH is because he hasn't any answers. For example, he shows a photo of a few objects held in someone's hand and says, "See, those are bones and they prove that 250,000 Jews were killed at Sobibor." Really? Where is the chain of evidence? Where is the laboratory analysis proving them human bones? Why does so few objects "prove" that 250,000 people were killed at Sobibor? You're empty, Nessie. You've got zip, zero, nada.


I do have the answers, which I post on another forum.

You have misrepresented and made up a quote about my argument regarding the evidence found at Sobibor.

The objects and finds of bones, bits of bone and ash at Sobibor corroborate the witnesses who say the site was used to kill most of those transported there. The bodies were buried, then exhumed, cremated and reburied mixed in with the earth. Further evidence of Sobibor as a death camp comes from the mass transports that arrived there and no evidence for mass transports back out again. So the claim of have have zip is also wrong.


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