the usual big bluff / True Believer 'Nessie' pleads his case, but without proof / + Sobibor, Treblinka

[Hektor]

Then we have Nessie's link to the CS-C interview with the University of Birmingham. Here's a quote from that interview.

"We’ve also identified a number of pits at the site. Again, all these pits have been mapped and corroborated with witness plans and this is indicative of a number of probable graves at the site."

Really, Caroline? Do tell us how your irregularly shaped holes, only one of which was measured at 17X26 meters and no depth, corroborates the well defined 10X25X50 meter graves of Wiernik or the even larger graves of Rajchman? How are they "...indicative of a number of probable graves at the site?" Why are the graves of the two eyewitnesses only "probable?"

After having done the archaeological-forensic work, wouldn't one have certainty at least that there are actual graves? I'm not saying it got to be gassed Jew graves, but at least graves with some human remains in them.

[Atigun]

Then we have Nessie's link to the CS-C interview with the University of Birmingham. Here's a quote from that interview.

"We’ve also identified a number of pits at the site. Again, all these pits have been mapped and corroborated with witness plans and this is indicative of a number of probable graves at the site."

Really, Caroline? Do tell us how your irregularly shaped holes, only one of which was measured at 17X26 meters and no depth, corroborates the well defined 10X25X50 meter graves of Wiernik or the even larger graves of Rajchman? How are they "...indicative of a number of probable graves at the site?" Why are the graves of the two eyewitnesses only "probable?"

After having done the archaeological-forensic work, wouldn't one have certainty at least that there are actual graves? I'm not saying it got to be gassed Jew graves, but at least graves with some human remains in them.

Back in the 1940s, I'm sure that Wiernik et al. felt comfortable with their lies about the giant 10X25X50 meter (and larger) graves. How were they to know about GPR and other high tech geophysical gear that's now available? Actually finding those graves wasn't a consideration for them. Now Nessie is stuck with her tale of CS-C finding "ground disturbances." I've never seen any proof of even that. Just a photo of the area with some colored spots drawn on it.

[CWhite]

So they did not vanish into thin air. There is no contradiction in my story. The narrative is backed by science.

...

"Grave pit No. 3: Located in southern part of the camp. This was the first mass grave, the location of which was positively identified from a Luftwaffe aerial photograph taken in 1944. It appears as a T-shaped white patch and has the appearances of being the biggest grave in the camp. Dimensions of the grave were determined as 16 m x 15 m x 5 m deep. Contained a mixture of carbonised wood, fragments of burnt human bones, pieces of skulls with skin and tufts of hair still attached, lumps of greyish human fat, and fragments of unburned human bones. The bottom layer consisted of putrid, waxy human fat. Area: 960 sq m."

Nessie, according to the "backed by science" narrative, how many seperate extant graves does Yoram Haimi claim to have proven currently exist at Sobibor?

A simple numeric answer will suffice.

[CWhite]

Nessie:

Please explain why the work by Yoram Haimi, which has excavated large parts of Sobibor is not a legitimate dig.

Nessie, do you deny that Yoram Haimi claims to have legitimately uncovered 10 human skeletons during the excavation of 4 seperate extant graves at Sobibor?

A simple Yes. or No. will suffice.

[Nessie..]

I cannot find any claim by Haimi to have found "seperate extant graves, so the answer is none and he yes human skeletons were uncovered.

Questions for you, have burnt bits of bone and ash been found mixed into and on top of the ground in one part of the Sobibor camp? Yes or no. Have three name tags belonging to Dutch Jewish children been found buried at Sobibor? Yes or no.

[CWhite]

Q: Nessie, do you deny that Yoram Haimi claims to have legitimately uncovered 10 human skeletons during the excavation of 4 seperate extant graves at Sobibor? A simple Yes. or No. will suffice.

Nessie's response: "he yes human skeletons were uncovered."

I didn't ask you if human skeletons were uncovered. I asked you if you deny that Yoram Haimi claims to have legitimately uncovered 10 human skeletons during the excavation of 4 seperate extant graves at Sobibor?

Dodge #1 for Nessie on this question. Let's try again:

Nessie, do you deny that Yoram Haimi claims to have legitimately uncovered 10 human skeletons during the excavation of 4 separate extant graves at Sobibor?

Yes. or No. ??


Q: Nessie, according to the "backed by science" narrative, how many seperate extant graves does Yoram Haimi claim to have proven currently exist at Sobibor?

I cannot find any claim by Haimi to have found "seperate extant graves

OK.

Nessie:

Questions for you, have burnt bits of bone and ash been found mixed into and on top of the ground in one part of the Sobibor camp? Yes or no. Have three name tags belonging to Dutch Jewish children been found buried at Sobibor? Yes or no.

My answer to both questions is - I don't know.

[CWhite]

Nessie, how many separate graves do you see in this photo:



And how many skeletons do you see in each separate grave?

[CWhite]

Nessie:

"I cannot find any claim by Haimi to have found "seperate extant graves"

Have you ever found any claim by Haimi to have found separate extant graves?

Yes. or No.

[Nessie..]

Q: Nessie, do you deny that Yoram Haimi claims to have legitimately uncovered 10 human skeletons during the excavation of 4 seperate extant graves at Sobibor? A simple Yes. or No. will suffice.

Nessie's response: "he yes human skeletons were uncovered."

I didn't ask you if human skeletons were uncovered. I asked you if you deny that Yoram Haimi claims to have legitimately uncovered 10 human skeletons during the excavation of 4 seperate extant graves at Sobibor?

Dodge #1 for Nessie on this question. Let's try again:

Nessie, do you deny that Yoram Haimi claims to have legitimately uncovered 10 human skeletons during the excavation of 4 separate extant graves at Sobibor?

Yes. or No. ??

No.

Q: Nessie, according to the "backed by science" narrative, how many seperate extant graves does Yoram Haimi claim to have proven currently exist at Sobibor?

I cannot find any claim by Haimi to have found "seperate extant graves

OK.

Nessie:

Questions for you, have burnt bits of bone and ash been found mixed into and on top of the ground in one part of the Sobibor camp? Yes or no. Have three name tags belonging to Dutch Jewish children been found buried at Sobibor? Yes or no.

My answer to both questions is - I don't know.

OK

[CWhite]

Nessie:

This thread was a claim I am bluffing and have no evidence. It has had to change tack because I have shown i am not bluffing and I do have evidence.

Let's get this thread back on track then, shall we Nessie?

The National Association of Forensic Historians website has this as its opening statement of fact:

It is alleged in orthodox historiography that; during WW II - hundreds upon hundreds of thousands of corpses were buried in numerous “huge mass graves” at the four very small, precisely known locations of - Belzec, Chelmno, Sobibor and Treblinka II. (Yad Vashem alleges that over two million people were murdered at these four sites.) However, despite all the deceptive claims / allegations / insinuations to the contrary, the simple truth is; the largest, in terms of both grave volume and quantity of remains, of the - four - so-called “huge mass graves” ever located / proven to exist at these four sites - in which actual, verified human remains have literally / truly been physically unearthed / tangibly located by archaeologists / forensic investigators - by means of bona fide, verifiably honest and conclusively documented archaeology / forensic science; contains the remains of - only six people!

Note: All four of the so-called “huge mass graves” were uncovered at Sobibor and contain a grand total of - only ten skeletons!

http://www.nafcash.com/

And here is said "huge mass grave" with the six skeletons:



Let's see a "huge mass grave" that is, in terms of either grave volume or quantity of remains, that's bigger.

IOW, let's see you prove that N.A.F.H. opening statement wrong.

You're not afraid to accept that simple challenge, are you Nessie?

[CWhite]

FYI - from that "other site:"

Hanna Hasbara's questions to Nessie:

When you say "with the utmost certainty" - is that the same level of certainty that you use to claim 33 extant "huge mass graves" have been located / proven to exist - via the scientific method - within the boundary of the Belzec camp - Yes. - or - No. - ??

Nessie's - Yes. - or - No. - answer: Yes

When you say "using the scientific method" - is that the same method that you use to claim - with the utmost certainty - that 33 extant "huge mass graves" have been located / proven to exist within the boundary of the Belzec camp - Yes. - or - No. - ??

Nessie's - Yes. - or - No. - answer: Yes

When you say "burial site" - are you including the total volume of all 33 “huge mass graves” that you claim - with the utmost certainty - have been located / proven to exist - via the scientific method - within the boundary of the Belzec camp - Yes. - or - No. - ??

Nessie's - Yes. - or - No. - answer: Yes

When you say "prove" - do you mean prove with the same standard of proof that you use to claim - with the utmost certainty - that 33 extant "huge mass graves" have been proven to exist - via the scientific method - within the boundary of the Belzec camp - Yes. - or - No. - ??

Nessie's - Yes. - or - No. - answer: Yes

Can you, with the utmost certainty and using the scientific method prove that Belzec is not the burial site of at least 530,000 jews - Yes. - or - No. - ??

Nessie's - Yes. - or - No. - answer: No as it does contain at least that number of remains


When you say "with the utmost certainty" - is that the same level of certainty that you use to claim 15 extant "huge mass graves" have been located / proven to exist - via the scientific method - within the boundary of the Chelmno camp - Yes. - or - No. - ??

Nessie's - Yes. - or - No. - answer: Yes

When you say "using the scientific method" - is that the same method that you use to claim - with the utmost certainty - that 15 extant "huge mass graves" have been located / proven to exist within the boundary of the Chelmno camp - Yes. - or - No. - ??

Nessie's - Yes. - or - No. - answer: Yes

When you say "burial site" - are you including the total volume of all 15 “huge mass graves” that you claim - with the utmost certainty - have been located / proven to exist - via the scientific method - within the boundary of the Chelmno camp - Yes. - or - No. - ??

Nessie's - Yes. - or - No. - answer: Yes

When you say "prove" - do you mean prove with the same standard of proof that you use to claim - with the utmost certainty - that 15 extant "huge mass graves" have been proven to exist - via the scientific method - within the boundary of the Chelmno camp - Yes. - or - No. - ??

Nessie's - Yes. - or - No. - answer: Yes

Can you, with the utmost certainty and using the scientific method prove that Chelmno is not the burial site of at least 252,000 jews - Yes. - or - No. - ??

Nessie's - Yes. - or - No. - answer: No as it does contain at least that number of remains


When you say "with the utmost certainty" - is that the same level of certainty that you use to claim 16 extant "huge mass graves" have been located / proven to exist - via the scientific method - within the boundary of the Sobibor camp - Yes. - or - No. - ??

Nessie's - Yes. - or - No. - answer: Yes

When you say "using the scientific method" - is that the same method that you use to claim - with the utmost certainty - that 16 extant "huge mass graves" have been located / proven to exist within the boundary of the Sobibor camp - Yes. - or - No. - ??

Nessie's - Yes. - or - No. - answer: Yes

When you say "burial site" - are you including the total volume of all 16 “huge mass graves” that you claim - with the utmost certainty - have been located / proven to exist - via the scientific method - within the boundary of the Sobibor camp - Yes. - or - No. - ??

Nessie's - Yes. - or - No. - answer: Yes

When you say "prove" - do you mean prove with the same standard of proof that you use to claim - with the utmost certainty - that 16 extant "huge mass graves" have been proven to exist - via the scientific method - within the boundary of the Sobibor camp - Yes. - or - No. - ??

Nessie's - Yes. - or - No. - answer: Yes

Can you, with the utmost certainty and using the scientific method prove that Sobibor is not the burial site of at least 201,000 jews - Yes. - or - No. - ??

Nessie's - Yes. - or - No. - answer: No as it does contain at least that number of remains


When you say "with the utmost certainty" - is that the same level of certainty that you use to claim 11 extant "huge mass graves" have been located / proven to exist - via the scientific method - within the boundary of the Treblinka II camp - Yes. - or - No. - ??

Nessie's - Yes. - or - No. - answer: Yes

When you say "using the scientific method" - is that the same method that you use to claim - with the utmost certainty - that 11 extant "huge mass graves" have been located / proven to exist within the boundary of the Treblinka II camp - Yes. - or - No. - ??

Nessie's - Yes. - or - No. - answer: Yes

When you say "burial site" - are you including the total volume of all 11 “huge mass graves” that you claim - with the utmost certainty - have been located / proven to exist - via the scientific method - within the boundary of the Treblinka II camp - Yes. - or - No. - ??

Nessie's - Yes. - or - No. - answer: Yes

When you say "prove" - do you mean prove with the same standard of proof that you use to claim - with the utmost certainty - that 11 extant "huge mass graves" have been proven to exist - via the scientific method - within the boundary of the Treblinka II camp - Yes. - or - No. - ??

Nessie's - Yes. - or - No. - answer: Yes

Can you, with the utmost certainty and using the scientific method prove that Treblinka II is not the burial site of at least 813,000 jews - Yes. - or - No. - ??

Nessie's - Yes. - or - No. - answer: No as it does contain at least that number of remains


SFinesilver's questions to Nessie:

#27 - Is it known - with the utmost certainty - that; legitimate archaeologists / forensic investigators have actually located / proven the existence of numerous discernable / measurable extant mass graves within the boundaries of each of the Belzec, Chelmno, Sobibor and Treblinka II camps - Yes. - or - No. - ??

Nessie's - Yes. - or - No. - answer: Yes.

#43 - The MAXIMUM number of the 33 claimed / alleged / insinuated - discernable / measurable extant graves of Belzec identified by The N.A.F.H. that you can currently prove - with the same standard of proof applied in U.S. criminal courts - that have actually been located / proven to exist in which legitimate archaeologists / forensic investigators have, via bona fide, verifiably honest and conclusively documented methodology - literally unearthed scientifically verified human remains; is no less than __?__.

Nessie's single numeric answer: 33

#44 - The MAXIMUM number of the 33 claimed / alleged / insinuated - discernable / measurable extant graves of Belzec identified by The N.A.F.H. that you can currently prove - with the same standard of proof applied in U.S. criminal courts - that have actually been located / proven to exist in which legitimate archaeologists / forensic investigators have, via bona fide, verifiably honest and conclusively documented methodology - literally unearthed the remains of at least 19 people; is no less than __?__.

Nessie's single numeric answer: 33

#45 - The MAXIMUM number of the 15 claimed / alleged / insinuated - discernable / measurable extant graves of Chelmno identified by The N.A.F.H. that you can currently prove - with the same standard of proof applied in U.S. criminal courts - that have actually been located / proven to exist in which legitimate archaeologists / forensic investigators have, via bona fide, verifiably honest and conclusively documented methodology - literally unearthed scientifically verified human remains; is no less than __?__.

Nessie's single numeric answer: 15

#46 - The MAXIMUM number of the 15 claimed / alleged / insinuated - discernable / measurable extant graves of Chelmno identified by The N.A.F.H. that you can currently prove - with the same standard of proof applied in U.S. criminal courts - that have actually been located / proven to exist in which legitimate archaeologists / forensic investigators have, via bona fide, verifiably honest and conclusively documented methodology - literally unearthed the remains of at least 19 people; is no less than __?__.

Nessie's single numeric answer: 15

#47 - The MAXIMUM number of the 16 claimed / alleged / insinuated - discernable / measurable extant graves of Sobibor identified by The N.A.F.H. that you can currently prove - with the same standard of proof applied in U.S. criminal courts - that have actually been located / proven to exist in which legitimate archaeologists / forensic investigators have, via bona fide, verifiably honest and conclusively documented methodology - literally unearthed scientifically verified human remains; is no less than __?__.

Nessie's single numeric answer: 16

#48 - The MAXIMUM number of the 16 claimed / alleged / insinuated - discernable / measurable extant graves of Sobibor identified by The N.A.F.H. that you can currently prove - with the same standard of proof applied in U.S. criminal courts - that have actually been located / proven to exist in which legitimate archaeologists / forensic investigators have, via bona fide, verifiably honest and conclusively documented methodology - literally unearthed the remains of at least 19 people; is no less than __?__.

Nessie's single numeric answer: 16

#49 - The MAXIMUM number of the 11 claimed / alleged / insinuated - discernable / measurable extant graves of Treblinka II identified by The N.A.F.H. that you can currently prove - with the same standard of proof applied in U.S. criminal courts - that have actually been located / proven to exist in which legitimate archaeologists / forensic investigators have, via bona fide, verifiably honest and conclusively documented methodology - literally unearthed scientifically verified human remains; is no less than __?__.

Nessie's single numeric answer: 11

#50 - The MAXIMUM number of the 11 claimed / alleged / insinuated - discernable / measurable extant graves of Treblinka II identified by The N.A.F.H. that you can currently prove - with the same standard of proof applied in U.S. criminal courts - that have actually been located / proven to exist in which legitimate archaeologists / forensic investigators have, via bona fide, verifiably honest and conclusively documented methodology - literally unearthed the remains of at least 19 people; is no less than __?__.

Nessie's single numeric answer: 11

[CWhite]

So Nessie alleges that 16 extant "huge mass graves" have been located / proven to exist - via the scientific method - within the boundary of the Sobibor camp and 11 extant "huge mass graves" have been locacted / proven to exist - via the scientific method - within the boundary of the Treblinka II camp.

He also alleges that he can prove - with the same standard of proof applied in U.S. criminal courts - that all 27 of those alleged "huge mass graves" have actually been located / proven to exist, in which legitimate archaeologists / forensic investigators have, via bona fide, verifiably honest and conclusively documented methodology - literally unearthed the remains of at least 19 people.

And, he alleges that Sobibor contains the remains of at least 201,000 jews and Treblinka II contains the remains of at least 813,000 jews.

The 16 so-called “huge mass graves” of Sobibor can be seen on page 7 (figure 6) of this link here:

http://sobibor.info.pl/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/Report-by-Y.Haimi-Autumn-2013.pdf


BTW, Nessie did answer the following question on that "other site:"

Nessie, do you deny that - on page 7 (figure 6) in the report linked to above, there is a map showing the locations and relative size of 16 graves allegedly located / proven to exist at Sobibor - Yes. - or - No. -??

And Nessie's answer was: No.

And this question in this thread:

Nessie, do you deny that Yoram Haimi claims to have legitimately uncovered 10 human skeletons during the excavation of 4 separate extant graves at Sobibor? Yes. or No. ??

Nessie: No.

And the 11 alleged “huge mass graves” of Treblinka II can be seen in this photo [in yellow] here:




So why would someone claim that they could prove such things, then NOT prove them?

If Nessie could - he would.

But he doesn't - so he can't.

[CWhite]

Nessie:

This thread was a claim I am bluffing and have no evidence. It has had to change tack because I have shown i am not bluffing and I do have evidence.

Are you bluffing about your being able to prove what you allege you can prove about Sobibor and Treblinka II's alleged 'huge mass graves"?

Do you know the difference between evidence and proof Nessie - Yes. - or - No. - ??

If your answer is - Yes. - then; would you please tell us what that difference is?

If your answer is - No. - then; would you like me to explain what the difference is to you?

[CWhite]

Nessie:

This thread was a claim I am bluffing and have no evidence. It has had to change tack because I have shown i am not bluffing and I do have evidence.

I, CWhite, am so confident that Nessie is bluffing, that I am willing to bet Nessie - $1,000.00 - that he cannot prove so-much-as one of the following

#48 - The MAXIMUM number of the 16 claimed / alleged / insinuated - discernable / measurable extant graves of Sobibor identified by The N.A.F.H. that you can currently prove - with the same standard of proof applied in U.S. criminal courts - that have actually been located / proven to exist in which legitimate archaeologists / forensic investigators have, via bona fide, verifiably honest and conclusively documented methodology - literally unearthed the remains of at least 19 people; is no less than __?__.

Nessie's single numeric answer: 16

Right here in this thread.

Just one out of these 16 Nessie:




Which, as you know, are numbered by The N.A.F.H. as follows:

1 = Sobibor “huge mass grave” #1 / 49

2 = Sobibor “huge mass grave” #2 / 50

"Memory Hill" (AKA the - "mound of ashes / remains") = Sobibor “huge mass grave” #3 / 51

3/4 = Sobibor “huge mass grave” #4 / 52

5 = Sobibor “huge mass grave” #5 / 53

6 = Sobibor “huge mass grave” #6 / 54

7 = Sobibor “huge mass grave” #7 / 55

8 (8/15) = Sobibor “huge mass grave” #8 / 56

9 = Sobibor “huge mass grave” #9 / 57

10 = Sobibor “huge mass grave” #10 / 58

11 = Sobibor “huge mass grave” #11 / 59

12 = Sobibor “huge mass grave” #12 / 60

13 = Sobibor “huge mass grave” #13 / 61

14 = Sobibor “huge mass grave” #14 / 62

15 (8/15) = Sobibor “huge mass grave” #15 / 63

16 = Sobibor “huge mass grave” #16 / 64

Right here Nessie.

Just one.

FYI Nessie:

201,000 divided by 16 = 12,562.5

Oh, and a reminder for you as well:

Nessie:

At Sobibor so many remains were found scattered that a memorial was build to contain them.

Really? Well then, why don't you start with that one Nessie?

It's called - "Memory Hill" (AKA the - "mound of ashes / remains") = Sobibor “huge mass grave” #3 / 51