I don't know what to believe, so many arguments against and in favour of the official version of the holocaust

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Re: I don't know what to believe, so many arguments against and in favour of the official version of the holocaust

Postby Hektor » 4 years 1 month ago (Mon May 16, 2016 4:49 pm)

[email protected] wrote:...

First of all, thank you for the Reply.

Well, I'm not american but european, and living in Germany since years :mrgreen: , which allows me to access, besides a lot of museums, some books, videos and pictures in archives that in other case wouldn't be possible.

- I need to keep on in my arguments; yes, they were darwinistic, and yes, they did have a racial hygiene program.

...
You need to post proof for your assertion, otherwise everything you say can be refuted with a counter-assertion.
But I think the myriad of points being made demonstrates why the guidelines say one subject at a time :D .

Also, Perhaps you should first get the proper definitions and then argue with them.
But find an adequate threat first - or if none can be found open a new one.

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Re: I don't know what to believe, so many arguments against and in favour of the official version of the holocaust

Postby Hannover » 4 years 1 month ago (Mon May 16, 2016 6:39 pm)

Dutch beginner, you said:
What is true about the holocaust narrative: There were shootings which killed many thousands innocent Jews in Russia because of anti partisan actions of the Germans, there were liquidations in camps like Sobibor and Treblinca, mass graves were exposed by Kola and other, but there is no evidence yet of an extermination program or killings of hundred thousand(s) Jews in camps in western Europe or in Poland.
There is also still the question, what happened with the Jews sent to the east in Russia, from which many did not return. Both sides, believers and non believers, were not able to give a reliable explanation beyond a reasonable doubt. If believers could do so then I will believe it.
- How are non-uniformed combatants, aka: terrorists deemed "innocent"? Are you aware of the Geneva Conventions during WWII?
- What liquidations in Sobibor & Treblinka are you talking about? Be specific. I know of none.
- Show us the 'mass graves that were exposed by Kola and others'. I have seen no such graves.
- Revisionists have shown countless examples of 'where the Jews went', the Bletchley Park decrypts are just one example.
also see: Soviets evacuating Jews:
http://winstonsmithministryoftruth.blog ... ab6440df0f

These are all covered well at this forum. I am afraid you are highly misinformed.

- Hannover

“All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.”.
Arthur Schopenhauer

The 'holocaust' storyline is one of the most easily debunked narratives ever contrived. That is why those who question it are arrested and persecuted. That is why violent, racist, & privileged Jewish supremacists demand censorship. What sort of truth is it that denies free speech and the freedom to seek the truth? Truth needs no protection from scrutiny.

The tide is turning.
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Re: I don't know what to believe, so many arguments against and in favour of the official version of the holocaust

Postby [email protected] » 4 years 1 month ago (Tue May 17, 2016 12:33 pm)

A post that took me some time to write because of its extension is now miracously deleted without knowing why or receiving any other reason or warning. Was it you hannover? If it was the case, what childish attitude yours.

What can a say. Blaming the lies of the zionism and its censorship, but acting exactly like one of those they hate. Such an hypocrisy and double standards.

Good bye all, have fun.

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Re: I don't know what to believe, so many arguments against and in favour of the official version of the holocaust

Postby Moderator » 4 years 1 month ago (Tue May 17, 2016 1:16 pm)

[email protected]:
Please, your excuses hold no water.
All you have to do, as was mentioned to you in this thread (see below), is post according to our basic & simple guidelines. You cannot continue to clutter a thread with so many, many different 'holocaust' related topics.
Is that so difficult?
Thanks, M1
Moderator wrote:[email protected]:
We appreciate your courtesy.

Here are our guidelines:
Holocaust Revisionism Forum guidelines / rules
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=358

Without them the various threads can be cluttered and difficult to follow.
Since you have so many questions I suggest that you start threads for the individual topics, much better that way.
Thanks & welcome.
M1
Only lies need to be shielded from debate, truth welcomes it.

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Re: I don't know what to believe, so many arguments against and in favour of the official version of the holocaust

Postby Dutch beginner » 4 years 1 month ago (Tue May 17, 2016 5:36 pm)

Hannover wrote:Dutch beginner, you said:
What is true about the holocaust narrative: There were shootings which killed many thousands innocent Jews in Russia because of anti partisan actions of the Germans, there were liquidations in camps like Sobibor and Treblinca, mass graves were exposed by Kola and other, but there is no evidence yet of an extermination program or killings of hundred thousand(s) Jews in camps in western Europe or in Poland.
There is also still the question, what happened with the Jews sent to the east in Russia, from which many did not return. Both sides, believers and non believers, were not able to give a reliable explanation beyond a reasonable doubt. If believers could do so then I will believe it.
- How are non-uniformed combatants, aka: terrorists deemed "innocent"? Are you aware of the Geneva Conventions during WWII?
- What liquidations in Sobibor & Treblinka are you talking about? Be specific. I know of none.
- Show us the 'mass graves that were exposed by Kola and others'. I have seen no such graves.
- Revisionists have shown countless examples of 'where the Jews went', the Bletchley Park decrypts are just one example.
also see: Soviets evacuating Jews:
http://winstonsmithministryoftruth.blog ... ab6440df0f

These are all covered well at this forum. I am afraid you are highly misinformed.

- Hannover

“All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.”.
Arthur Schopenhauer

The 'holocaust' storyline is one of the most easily debunked narratives ever contrived. That is why those who question it are arrested and persecuted. That is why violent, racist, & privileged Jewish supremacists demand censorship. What sort of truth is it that denies free speech and the freedom to seek the truth? Truth needs no protection from scrutiny.

The tide is turning.



@Hannover
Regarding Mass grave sobibor, see :Sobibor Holocaust propaganda and reality, from Mattogno et al:
Kolo wrote:
“[…] altogether there were 1,805 drillings made on 4 hectares.In 1,107 of these a natural, anthropogenically unspoilt stratigraphy
was discovered, where underneath a newer layer of humus (0-30 cm on average) natural, yellowish sand (archeologically barren) occurred.
Grave remnants were found in 128 drillings. They are accumulated in seven pronounced groups that can be assumed as being
separate pits which contain remains of mass murder victims. Most of these graves contain cremated human bones. The grave bottoms
reached the depth of approx. 4 meters from the surface. Only in one case (grave No. 3) the bottom reached a depth of 5.80 m. Particularly
noticeable traces of cremation occurred in the lower parts of the graves where distinct layers of scorched bones, with a thickness up
to 40-60 cm, could be identified.”

Mattogno wrote:
Yet in spite of this, 4 out of 6 mass graves discovered by Kola contain remains of unincinerated, saponified
corpses in their lower strata. This finding is obviously incompatible with the claim that the SS did their best to eradicate all traces of
their alleged crime.339 Where did the unincinerated corpses come from? One hypothesis
could be that they are the remains of detainees shot during the uprising. According to Arad, those shot during the revolt or executed afterward
numbered between 380 and 420.340 As the camp was hurriedly liquidated during the following weeks and as there was a lack of work force
in the days immediately after the revolt (the dismantling of the camp was reportedly done by a group of Jews brought in from Treblinka), it is
possible that their corpses were buried without prior cremation.


Regarding Treblinca Mass Grave
Polish-Russian research reports speak of 1945 about one mass grave in Treblinka I, with around 10,000 dead bodies and some smaller Treblinka II 4 to 5000 together 15,000
(Bilatyn Glownej Komisji do Badania Zbrodni Hitlerowskich w Plosce, vol. 26 (1975), blz. 117-195. )

Regardings Shootings in Russia, David Cole ones make a quote from a document that Germans shoot also innocent Jews during the war agaist partisan, on the site: Holocaust Museum, I believe. this site does not exist anymore.

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Re: I don't know what to believe, so many arguments against and in favour of the official version of the holocaust

Postby Hannover » 4 years 1 month ago (Tue May 17, 2016 8:02 pm)

1. I asked you to "Show us the mass graves that were exposed by Kola and others".
You have not.
Kola has not.
Mattogno, who refers to Kola's fraudulent nonsense, has not.
So, why not?
Because there are no "mass graves" to show.
Do you or anyone have photos to review?
Search Kola Belzec here to see how this shyster Kola really works.

2. Do you or anyone have this communist 'report' of mass graves at Treblinka to actually see, review? If so please produce it for scrutiny.
A 1970's communist citation of a claimed 1945 communist "report" is hardly reliable.
Are there photos to review?
Was this "report" submitted in any of the postwar trials? If so, let's see it.

3. Please actually show us this alleged German document on "shootings", not Cole's vague, unsupported claims.
It's claimed that the Industry knows where the alleged mass graves for these "shootings" are.
Why haven't they been excavated, verified, and shown?

IOW, if you are going to make claims here you will be challenged for proof of them.
The 'holocaust lite' game will be subjected to same rigorous review as 'the holocaust', and rightly so.

Have you seen the CODOH Forum's threads on all of these?

- Hannover

“All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.”.
Arthur Schopenhauer

The 'holocaust' storyline is one of the most easily debunked narratives ever contrived. That is why those who question it are arrested and persecuted. That is why violent, racist, & privileged Jewish supremacists demand censorship. What sort of truth is it that denies free speech and the freedom to seek the truth? Truth needs no protection from scrutiny.

The tide is turning.
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Re: I don't know what to believe, so many arguments against and in favour of the official version of the holocaust

Postby Dutch beginner » 4 years 1 month ago (Wed May 18, 2016 2:27 am)

@Hanover
Regarding point 3, liquidations in Russia. I found the document David Cole quoted:
The Kube/Lohse telegram:

David Cole wrote:
Another spectacular Mattogno/Graf fail. After committing themselves to the fact that the Kube/Lohse telegram is authentic and reliable, they fail to quote the entire thing. I’ll do that now:

Following exhaustive discussions with the SS Brigadefuehrer Zenner and the exceedingly capable Leader of the SD, SS Obersturmbannfuehrer Dr. jur. Strauch, we have liquidated about 55,000 Jews in Belorussia in the past 10 weeks. In the area of Minsk county Jewry has been completely eliminated without any danger to the manpower requirements. In the predominantly Polish area of Lida, 16,000 Jews were liquidated, in Slonim, 8,000, etc.

And here:
Without contacting me, the Army Rear Zone Command liquidated 10,000 Jews, whose systematic elimination had in any case been planned by us. In the city of Minsk about 10,000 Jews were liquidated on July 28 and 29. Of these 6,500 were Russian Jews – mainly old men, women and children – and the rest, Jews incapable of work, who were sent to Minsk in November of last year by order of the Fuehrer, mainly from Vienna, Bruenn, Bremen and Berlin. The District of Sluzk has also been relieved of several thousand Jews. The same applies to Nowogrodek and Wilejka. Radical measures are planned for Baranowitschi and Hanzewitschi. In Baranowitschi there are still another 10,000 Jews in the city itself, of whom 9,000 will be liquidated next month.

http://www.countercontempt.com/archives/5335

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Re: I don't know what to believe, so many arguments against and in favour of the official version of the holocaust

Postby Hannover » 4 years 1 month ago (Wed May 18, 2016 11:06 am)

Dutch beginner wrote:@Hanover
Regarding point 3, liquidations in Russia. I found the document David Cole quoted:
The Kube/Lohse telegram:

David Cole wrote:
Another spectacular Mattogno/Graf fail. After committing themselves to the fact that the Kube/Lohse telegram is authentic and reliable, they fail to quote the entire thing. I’ll do that now:

Following exhaustive discussions with the SS Brigadefuehrer Zenner and the exceedingly capable Leader of the SD, SS Obersturmbannfuehrer Dr. jur. Strauch, we have liquidated about 55,000 Jews in Belorussia in the past 10 weeks. In the area of Minsk county Jewry has been completely eliminated without any danger to the manpower requirements. In the predominantly Polish area of Lida, 16,000 Jews were liquidated, in Slonim, 8,000, etc.

And here:
Without contacting me, the Army Rear Zone Command liquidated 10,000 Jews, whose systematic elimination had in any case been planned by us. In the city of Minsk about 10,000 Jews were liquidated on July 28 and 29. Of these 6,500 were Russian Jews – mainly old men, women and children – and the rest, Jews incapable of work, who were sent to Minsk in November of last year by order of the Fuehrer, mainly from Vienna, Bruenn, Bremen and Berlin. The District of Sluzk has also been relieved of several thousand Jews. The same applies to Nowogrodek and Wilejka. Radical measures are planned for Baranowitschi and Hanzewitschi. In Baranowitschi there are still another 10,000 Jews in the city itself, of whom 9,000 will be liquidated next month.

http://www.countercontempt.com/archives/5335

- Once again you dodge my request to actually see the alleged & actual German documents. Why?
- Quoting bits of claimed English 'translations' by Cole and who-knows-who is not acceptable, in fact such dodging would be laughed out of a legit court of law.
- And I note you also dodged my question whether the communist 'report' was used in any post war trials.
- Show me the actual German documents, or admit you cannot and stop dodging.
- Start new threads on these issues or post to previous ones, you know the guidelines which you agreed to when you registered,
see:
'Eric Hunt's response to David Cole / Treblinka'
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=8744

Again, this what you dodged. I said:
1. I asked you to "Show us the mass graves that were exposed by Kola and others".
You have not.
Kola has not.
Mattogno, who refers to Kola's fraudulent nonsense, has not.
So, why not?
Because there are no "mass graves" to show.
Do you or anyone have photos to review?
Search Kola Belzec here to see how this shyster Kola really works.

2. Do you or anyone have this communist 'report' of mass graves at Treblinka to actually see, review? If so please produce it for scrutiny.
A 1970's communist citation of a claimed 1945 communist "report" is hardly reliable.
Are there photos to review?
Was this "report" submitted in any of the postwar trials? If so, let's see it.

3. Please actually show us this alleged German document on "shootings", not Cole's vague, unsupported claims.
It's claimed that the Industry knows where the alleged mass graves for these "shootings" are.
Why haven't they been excavated, verified, and shown?

- Hannover

“All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.”.
Arthur Schopenhauer

The 'holocaust' storyline is one of the most easily debunked narratives ever contrived. That is why those who question it are arrested and persecuted. That is why violent, racist, & privileged Jewish supremacists demand censorship. What sort of truth is it that denies free speech and the freedom to seek the truth? Truth needs no protection from scrutiny.

The tide is turning.
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Re: I don't know what to believe, so many arguments against and in favour of the official version of the holocaust

Postby Dutch beginner » 4 years 1 month ago (Wed May 18, 2016 1:19 pm)

@Hannover
Here the whole Kola report, including photo's: http://sobibor.info.pl/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/Report-by-Y.Haimi-Autumn-2013.pdf
To be honest, I must admit that based on this report I am not convinced of a mass grave with thens of thousands of corpses.


Regarding the telegram kube lohse, which Mattogno considers as authentic, you will find german language here
http://www.ifz-muenchen.de/heftarchiv/1956_1_5_heiber.pdf

In eingehenden Besprechungen mit dem SS-Brigadeführer Zenner und dem hervorragend tüchtigen Leiter des SD, SS-Obersturmbannführer Dr. jur. Strauch, haben wir in Weißruthenie n in den letzten zehn Wochen rund 55 000 Juden liquidiert. Im Gebiet Minsk-Land ist das Judentum völlig ausgemerzt.. ."



Again, the question of this subject is: What to believe of the holocaust. These documents do not proof an extermination programm, but they proof some aspects of the narrative.

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Re: I don't know what to believe, so many arguments against and in favour of the official version of the holocaust

Postby Hannover » 4 years 1 month ago (Wed May 18, 2016 2:42 pm)

- Now you move from dodging Kola to citing Haimi, who BTW only references Kola. One fraud to another.

- Completely laughable and yet again you show no requested photos of actual mass graves with verified human remains shown, none.
- Only 'drawings' by Haimi which depict alleged mass graves, but tellingly Haimi didn't excavate, or if he did he found nothing and is hiding that fact, no human remains are shown. Talk is cheap.

- Saying Mattogno, who did no excavations there, accepts this nonsense is irrelevant since he, you, nor anyone can show us requested photos of verified, excavated mass graves with the contents shown.

- Haimi does, however, give us photos of a shovel, a glass jar, & names tags all without confirmation that they came from Sobibor. It's all absurd stage crafting.

- Follow up if you dare at these threads:

'Show me a photo of "human ash" please'
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=7229
and:
'Sobibor as Disneyland' / another cry for help'
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=10291
and:
'1000 year old Viking mass graves excavated, identified, etc., but no such 'holocaust' mass graves. Why? / +Treblinka'
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=10137

Please, no more cluttering posts in this thread.

- And as expected you dodged my request for the real & authentic German document, you merely quoted an unreliable, unverifiable German language interpretative text written to suit an agenda.
-Give me the original German document or admit you cannot and move on.

you said:
Again, the question of this subject is: What to believe of the holocaust. These documents do not proof an extermination programm, but they proof some aspects of the narrative.
- No they don't, if they did you and everyone else who make such unverified claims could produce the original German documents for confirmation.
You have not, you cannot.

To repeat what you dodged:
1. I asked you to "Show us the mass graves that were exposed by Kola and others".
You have not.
Kola has not.
Mattogno, who refers to Kola's fraudulent nonsense, has not.
So, why not?
Because there are no "mass graves" to show.
Do you or anyone have photos to review?
Search Kola Belzec here to see how this shyster Kola really works.

2. Do you or anyone have this communist 'report' of mass graves at Treblinka to actually see, review? If so please produce it for scrutiny.
A 1970's communist citation of a claimed 1945 communist "report" is hardly reliable.
Are there photos to review?
Was this "report" submitted in any of the postwar trials? If so, let's see it.

3. Please actually show us this alleged German document on "shootings", not Cole's vague, unsupported claims.
It's claimed that the Industry knows where the alleged mass graves for these "shootings" are.
Why haven't they been excavated, verified, and shown?

- Hannover

“All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.”.
Arthur Schopenhauer

The 'holocaust' storyline is one of the most easily debunked narratives ever contrived. That is why those who question it are arrested and persecuted. That is why violent, racist, & privileged Jewish supremacists demand censorship. What sort of truth is it that denies free speech and the freedom to seek the truth? Truth needs no protection from scrutiny.

The tide is turning.
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Re: I don't know what to believe, so many arguments against and in favour of the official version of the holocaust

Postby Dresden » 4 years 1 month ago (Wed May 18, 2016 3:46 pm)

Hannover said:

"Haimi does, however, give us photos of a shovel, a glass jar, & names tags all without confirmation that they came from Sobibor. It's all absurd stage crafting"

I gotta admit.....that rusty shovel shook my Revisionist beliefs a little, until I realized it's only a snow shovel.....it's not even a digging shovel.

Haimi said:

"The asphalt sidewalk leading visitors to the mound of ashes passes directly over Grave No. 6 (Fig. 8 )"

But Fig. 8 is not a picture of "Grave 6", it is the picture of the rusty snow shovel found at "Grave 8"
Maybe, just maybe, they believe what they are telling you about the 'holocaust', but maybe, just maybe, their contempt for your intelligence and your character is beyond anything you could ever have imagined. -- Bradley Smith

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Re: I don't know what to believe, so many arguments against and in favour of the official version of the holocaust

Postby hermod » 4 years 1 month ago (Wed May 18, 2016 8:52 pm)

If anybody still believes there was a murder factory at Sobibor after reading the Haimi report, he/she is mad or 100% biased. A reading that makes it easier to understand why Zionist deceivers were/are reduced to distort religious laws in order to prevent archaeologists from digging at Holohoax sites. Devastating...
"But, however the world pretends to divide itself, there are ony two divisions in the world to-day - human beings and Germans. – Rudyard Kipling, The Morning Post (London), June 22, 1915

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Re: I don't know what to believe, so many arguments against and in favour of the official version of the holocaust

Postby borjastick » 4 years 1 month ago (Thu May 19, 2016 2:29 am)

hermod wrote:If anybody still believes there was a murder factory at Sobibor after reading the Haimi report, he/she is mad or 100% biased. A reading that makes it easier to understand why Zionist deceivers were/are reduced to distort religious laws in order to prevent archaeologists from digging at Holohoax sites. Devastating...


You got it hermod. One only needs to read the photo captions to realise this is a story worthy of the Disney company, it is pure fantasy and make believe and has nothing to do with scientific rectitude. It proves absolutely nothing of the ludicrous claims made about Sobibor.
'Of the four million Jews under Nazi control in WW2, six million died and alas only five million survived.'

'We don't need evidence, we have survivors' - israeli politician

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Re: I don't know what to believe, so many arguments against and in favour of the official version of the holocaust

Postby hermod » 4 years 1 month ago (Thu May 19, 2016 6:11 am)

borjastick wrote:
hermod wrote:If anybody still believes there was a murder factory at Sobibor after reading the Haimi report, he/she is mad or 100% biased. A reading that makes it easier to understand why Zionist deceivers were/are reduced to distort religious laws in order to prevent archaeologists from digging at Holohoax sites. Devastating...


You got it hermod. One only needs to read the photo captions to realise this is a story worthy of the Disney company, it is pure fantasy and make believe and has nothing to do with scientific rectitude. It proves absolutely nothing of the ludicrous claims made about Sobibor.


IMO, it does even more than that. It disproves the ludicrous claims made about Sobibor...

Image

Image
"But, however the world pretends to divide itself, there are ony two divisions in the world to-day - human beings and Germans. – Rudyard Kipling, The Morning Post (London), June 22, 1915

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Re: I don't know what to believe, so many arguments against and in favour of the official version of the holocaust

Postby borjastick » 4 years 1 month ago (Thu May 19, 2016 7:53 am)

hermod wrote:
borjastick wrote:
hermod wrote:If anybody still believes there was a murder factory at Sobibor after reading the Haimi report, he/she is mad or 100% biased. A reading that makes it easier to understand why Zionist deceivers were/are reduced to distort religious laws in order to prevent archaeologists from digging at Holohoax sites. Devastating...


You got it hermod. One only needs to read the photo captions to realise this is a story worthy of the Disney company, it is pure fantasy and make believe and has nothing to do with scientific rectitude. It proves absolutely nothing of the ludicrous claims made about Sobibor.


IMO, it does even more than that. It disproves the ludicrous claims made about Sobibor...

Image

Image


You see in Sobibor we are presented with and presumably have access to the perfect holocaust story with scientific proof within inches of our fingers. They claim to have found mass graves and gas chamber remains. they claim that the pile of cremated ashes of many thousands of inmates is still there in situ.

We claim this is all pure speculation and make believe and yet there we have the proof of it, one way or the other, in front of us. Surely as the cremains of these people have already been removed from their place of burial once it would be reasonable to remove them all to a scientific forensic/dna type location and weigh, analyse, and investigate the numbers, and the dna which should prove these people to be a)of massive number and b)jews.
'Of the four million Jews under Nazi control in WW2, six million died and alas only five million survived.'

'We don't need evidence, we have survivors' - israeli politician


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