the "vergasungskeller" note

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Hannover
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the "vergasungskeller" note

Postby Hannover » 1 decade 6 years ago (Wed Jan 01, 2003 8:26 pm)

There is a typed memorandum which mentions a temporary "vergasungskeller" in one of the rooms of Crematorium II of Auschwitz/Birkenau in January 1943, but there is no indication that a homicidal gas chamber is referred to.
In a number of other documents, "vergasungen" refers to disinfestation and/or fumigation measures.
The document was written two months before the ovens became operative and the elevator was installed, so it is unlikely that the document refers to killing, because the alleged victims would have had to have been carried up the stairs and taken to another crematorium for body disposal, which does not make sense. IF there was an operational homicidal facility, why not bring the victims there to begin with?

There is also a work sheet written by the employee of a civilian construction firm mentioning concrete work in the "gaskammer" of crematorium IV or V, but most Revisionists agree that the westernmost rooms of those buildings must have been used for vergasungen (fumigations) of perhaps the clothing of the dead typhus victims.

So it would seem that those who cling to this as definitive "proof" of homicidal gassings are grasping at straws.

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Postby Sailor » 1 decade 6 years ago (Thu Jan 02, 2003 10:57 am)

The German word for the place where people are executed with poison gas is "Gaskammer" (gas chamber), not "Vergasungskeller".

The term "Vergasungskeller" was used during the First World War and in the years after for a place where clothes were disinfested.

It is surprising that in the US we are still allowed to use the word "gas station" for the place to by a tank full of "gas" for the car, and that God's darlings are not yet insulted about this and through their political influence (= money) have changed this.
:cry:

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 6 years ago (Thu Jan 02, 2003 11:22 am)

Hebden says:
We are going to challenge you on this one. Please furnish examples of these other documents.

- Becker, Helmut, Äskulap zwischen Reichsadler und Halbmond, Helmut Becker, n. p., 1990, provides an extensive survey including many extracts from primary sources and memoirs.
Becker, op. cit., p. 3, and compare discussion of Badeanstalten to control typhus, p. 126, Use of petroleum, p. 191, discussion of Apparat, p. 361-362, etc.
Ibid.
cf. "Ihm lagen zugrunde die Erfahrungen, die ich bei der Typhus- und Ruhrbekämpfung in Nordchina und bei der Genickstarrebekämpfung in München gemacht hatte. Sie lautete kurz: Heraus aus den versuchten Häusern, in weit angelegte, gesund gelegene, womöglich weit entfernte, auf Bergen gelegene Lager, vorher aber energische Reinigung aller Personen, Desinfektion aller Kleidungs- und Wäschestücke, die neuen Lager nur mit völlig gereinigten und neu gekleideten Truppen betreten lassen. Einschränkung des Dienstes, aber doppelte Rationen. So geschah es auch. Die Desinfektionswagen führen vor die Kasernen, Truppenteil für Truppenteil wurde gebadet. Dann die neue Kleidung empfangen, und sofort nach dem Zeltlager abgerückt. In der Kaserne wurde dann die alte Kleidung, Wäsche, Bettzeug desinfiziert, die Zimmer mit Formaldehyd und gegen die Läuse mit schwefelige Säure vergast." quoted from Meyer's memoirs, Becker, op. cit., p. 38
Becker, op. cit.
EB, article Typhus, loc. cit.
Becker, op. cit., inferred from the description of heightened procedures in the European portion of Turkey during this period, pp. 368-388, note also discussion of railroad delousing tunnels, p. 3

- http://codoh.com/incon/inconshr123.html#shrlk3
German Disinfection Procedures
The same pattern emerged in World War One, and not only among Jewish people. The Germans, in the context of reorganizing the Turkish army, spent a great deal of effort in controlling typhus and other diseases.101 The two main tools of this effort were the Dampfdesinfektionwagens (mobile steam disinfection trucks) and the Turkish baths, which were converted for disinfection purposes.102 The Germans used primarily sulfur gas, which required a generator (Vergaser) that would burn the sulfur and provide the gas.103 Already at the beginning of 1914 the Germans were using vergasen (gasify, gas) as a synonym for begasen (fumigate). 104

- See "Erläuterungsbericht über den Bau des KGL Birkenau" of October 30th 1941 where the delousing huts are mentioned as "Vergasungsraum" ( Auschwitz: Das Ende einer Legende. Historisch-technische Überlegungen by Carlo Mattogno)

- the Hoess special order, the Kremer diary, all use "Vergasung" in a non-homicidal context.

"Vergasungskeller" -- this is supposed to mean "gas chamber". But there is no usage to support THAT interpretation.

It is also clear that in itself this designation is not a criminal trace, as J.C. Pressac would allege, since perfectly benign interpretations are possible. Its criminality is only defined by the weight of any corroborating material evidence.
There is no corroborating physical/forensic evidence, no corroborating testimony that makes any sense & does not contradict, and there are perfectly reasonable explanations outside of any unsubstantiated, evil scenario.

And curiously about Bischoff's note, SS Bischoff was not prosecuted.
Here's a man who was a Nazi from the very beginning, and officer in the SS, who supervised all the building, wrote the "Vergasungskeller" letter and much else besides, who would know better than anyone what was going on in the construction end, and he was never even arrested. That's not believable.
The alternate suggestion, that he didn't know anything about it, is even more unbelievable, aside from the fact that, if he didn't know anything, then he obviously didn't mean anything homicidal in writing "Vergasungskeller."

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Postby Moderator » 1 decade 6 years ago (Thu Jan 02, 2003 1:36 pm)

My apologies to Hebden. In deleting another of alpha's naughty posts, I mistakenly deleted one by Hebden.
Hebden, please repost . I will then try to arrange the order of the posts in the sequence that was intended.

My apologies again to Hebden.

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Postby Hebden » 1 decade 6 years ago (Thu Jan 02, 2003 7:32 pm)

Sailor wrote:The German word for the place where people are executed with poison gas is "Gaskammer" (gas chamber), not "Vergasungskeller".


Then what is your opinion of the document referring to a Gaskammer in Krema IV? You can't have your cake and eat it.

We wonder if the fact that Mr. Bischoff was referring to a cellar influenced the choice of prefix. In English, we would probably write gassing cellar in preference to gas cellar. Is Vergasungskeller preferable to Gaskeller?
Last edited by Hebden on Thu Jan 02, 2003 7:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Hebden » 1 decade 6 years ago (Thu Jan 02, 2003 7:34 pm)

Moderator wrote:My apologies to Hebden. In deleting another of alpha's naughty posts, I mistakenly deleted one by Hebden.
Hebden, please repost . I will then try to arrange the order of the posts in the sequence that was intended.

My apologies again to Hebden.

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Let's not worry about it.

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Postby Hebden » 1 decade 6 years ago (Thu Jan 02, 2003 7:57 pm)

Hannover wrote:Hebden says:
We are going to challenge you on this one. Please furnish examples of these other documents.


- See "Erläuterungsbericht über den Bau des KGL Birkenau" of October 30th 1941 where the delousing huts are mentioned as "Vergasungsraum" ( Auschwitz: Das Ende einer Legende. Historisch-technische Überlegungen by Carlo Mattogno)

- the Hoess special order, the Kremer diary, all use "Vergasung" in a non-homicidal context.


Do these examples derive from Mr. Crowell?

We believe the 'Hoess special order' refers to the following document

http://www.fpp.co.uk/Auschwitz/docs/Auschw120842.html

Here is another use of the term:

http://www.fpp.co.uk/Auschwitz/docs/Fleming/ZyklonLKW2.html

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Postby Daniel Saez Lorente » 1 decade 1 year ago (Sat May 03, 2008 10:30 pm)

Hannover wrote:There is a typed memorandum which mentions a temporary "vergasungskeller" in one of the rooms of Crematorium II of Auschwitz/Birkenau in January 1943, but there is no indication that a homicidal gas chamber is referred to.
In a number of other documents, "vergasungen" refers to disinfestation and/or fumigation measures.
The document was written two months before the ovens became operative and the elevator was installed, so it is unlikely that the document refers to killing, because the alleged victims would have had to have been carried up the stairs and taken to another crematorium for body disposal, which does not make sense. IF there was an operational homicidal facility, why not bring the victims there to begin with?

There is also a work sheet written by the employee of a civilian construction firm mentioning concrete work in the "gaskammer" of crematorium IV or V, but most Revisionists agree that the westernmost rooms of those buildings must have been used for vergasungen (fumigations) of perhaps the clothing of the dead typhus victims.

So it would seem that those who cling to this as definitive "proof" of homicidal gassings are grasping at straws.

- Hannover


The document mentioning concrete work in the "gaskammer" in one of these documents not only misspells the word for gas chamber but it gets the gender wrong. I think this is possibly the document you are referring to. It is obvious that there are a lot of forgeries.

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Postby Daniel Saez Lorente » 1 decade 1 year ago (Sat May 03, 2008 10:34 pm)

Hebden wrote:
Sailor wrote:The German word for the place where people are executed with poison gas is "Gaskammer" (gas chamber), not "Vergasungskeller".


Then what is your opinion of the document referring to a Gaskammer in Krema IV? You can't have your cake and eat it.

We wonder if the fact that Mr. Bischoff was referring to a cellar influenced the choice of prefix. In English, we would probably write gassing cellar in preference to gas cellar. Is Vergasungskeller preferable to Gaskeller?


It appears to me here that neither Vergasungskeller nor Gaskeller is a recognized technical term. The word for gas chamber, or disinfestation chamber by means of gas, is, as you correctly point out, is Gaskammer.
One of these documents even spells it with a sharp S and gets the gender wrong. It also appears curious that a gas chamber or disinfestation chamber would be installed in a basement, but let's not be small-minded.

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Postby Daniel Saez Lorente » 1 decade 1 year ago (Tue May 06, 2008 3:42 am)

Daniel Saez Lorente wrote:
Hannover wrote:There is a typed memorandum which mentions a temporary "vergasungskeller" in one of the rooms of Crematorium II of Auschwitz/Birkenau in January 1943, but there is no indication that a homicidal gas chamber is referred to.
In a number of other documents, "vergasungen" refers to disinfestation and/or fumigation measures.
The document was written two months before the ovens became operative and the elevator was installed, so it is unlikely that the document refers to killing, because the alleged victims would have had to have been carried up the stairs and taken to another crematorium for body disposal, which does not make sense. IF there was an operational homicidal facility, why not bring the victims there to begin with?

There is also a work sheet written by the employee of a civilian construction firm mentioning concrete work in the "gaskammer" of crematorium IV or V, but most Revisionists agree that the westernmost rooms of those buildings must have been used for vergasungen (fumigations) of perhaps the clothing of the dead typhus victims.

So it would seem that those who cling to this as definitive "proof" of homicidal gassings are grasping at straws.

- Hannover


The document mentioning concrete work in the "gaskammer" in one of these documents not only misspells the word for gas chamber but it gets the gender wrong. I think this is possibly the document you are referring to. It is obvious that there are a lot of forgeries.


I am writing from memory because I no longer have Pressac's book, but as I recall the document is a "work sheet", almost certainly an authentic document, with the words "Flur betonieren im Gaßkammer". Gas is written with one s, not a sharp S, and Kammer is feminine, not masculine or neuter, i.e., Flur betonieren in der Gaskammer. "Flur" is a rather unusual word in this context, one would expect "Boden", but let's not be small-minded.

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Postby Vlad » 1 decade 1 year ago (Tue May 06, 2008 5:33 am)

The work sheet says Fußboden, which is correct, and im Gasskammer, which isn't.
http://www.h-ref.de/vernichtung/gaskamm ... sblatt.php

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Postby PotPie » 1 decade 1 year ago (Wed May 07, 2008 3:44 am)

I have a pre-WWII German/English dictionary, and it defines "vergasung" as gasification, not gassing. Another word meant gassing.

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Postby Vlad » 1 decade 1 year ago (Wed May 07, 2008 4:18 am)

Very helpful indeed. Which dictionary? Which word? Name your sources and what you find in them.

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Postby ClaudiaRothenbach » 1 decade 1 year ago (Thu May 08, 2008 4:50 am)

Vlad wrote:The work sheet says Fußboden, which is correct, and im Gasskammer, which isn't.
http://www.h-ref.de/vernichtung/gaskamm ... sblatt.php


The text says:
... und Fußboden betonieren im Gasskammer.


There are three errors with these two words:

1. Correct would be "in der" or "in" instead of "im". The case is dativ, Gaskammer is a female word. This is a typical error of a non-native speaker.

2. Gasskammer is wrong, correct is Gaskammer. This type of error is also be made by a native speaker frequently. Perhaps the witer was thinking of a nazi-organisation when he wrote the word.

3. The word order is wrong: Correct would be: "... und Fußboden in Gaskammer betonieren."

It is important to note that the ink of the words "im Gasskammer" is a bit bolt compared to the rest. This would have to be analysed.

It is also important to note that the rest of the text contains no errors. Only the words "im Gasskammer" contain errors.

Why is that:
It looks like the words "im Gasskammer" were added by a non-German forger where there was a little space at the end of the line. But it was impossible for the forger to add these words in the correct word order. And additionally he misspelled two of two words. :D
Setzen, sechs!

If this paper is needed as proof for mass gassings than there is no proof.
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