Josef Mengele: Sportsmanlike - The Hardest Working Deception of WWII (new video)

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Re: Josef Mengele: Sportsmanlike - The Hardest Working Deception of WWII (new video)

Postby Werd » 1 year 7 months ago (Tue Jul 12, 2016 8:25 pm)

onetruth must be referring to things like this.

http://isurvived.org/2Postings/mengele-AUSCHWITZ.html
Some parents did announce their twins. Some relatives, friends, or neighbors would announce the twins. Some mothers tried to hide their twins. The SS and Mengele would search through the surging ranks of people in search of twins and anyone with unusual traits. While many twins were either announced or discovered, some sets of twins were successfully hidden and walked with their mother into the gas chamber.

Which was the right decision - to announce or not to announce their twins? I don't think there necessarily was one. Approximately three thousand twins were pulled from the masses on the ramp, most of them children; only around two hundred survived.

When the twins were found, they were taken away from their parents.

Once the SS guard knew we were twins, Miriam and I were taken away from our mother, without any warning or explanation.
Our screams fell on deaf ears. I remember looking back and seeing my mother's arms stretched out in despair as we were led away by a soldier. That was the last time I saw her.
1

1. Eva Mozes as quoted in Lucette Matalon Lagnado and Sheila Cohn Dekel, Children of the Flames: Dr. Josef Mengele and the Untold Story of the Twins of Auschwitz (New York: William Morrow and Company, Inc., 1991) 56.

Another one. Same webpage.
Surgeries

Various surgeries without anesthesia including organ removal, castration, and amputations.

One day, my twin brother, Tibi, was taken away for some special experiments. Dr. Mengele had always been more interested in Tibi. I am not sure why - perhaps because he was the older twin.Mengele made several operations on Tibi. One surgery on his spine left my brother paralyzed. He could not walk anymore. Then they took out his sexual organs. After the fourth operation, I did not see Tibi anymore. I cannot tell you how I felt. It is impossible to put into words how I felt. They had taken away my father, my mother, my two older brothers - and now, my twin. 7

7. Moshe Offer as quoted in Lagnado, Children 71.



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Re: Josef Mengele: Sportsmanlike - The Hardest Working Deception of WWII (new video)

Postby Werd » 1 year 7 months ago (Tue Jul 12, 2016 8:39 pm)

From A Soul's Journey By Jeanne Avery.

https://s31.postimg.org/9t7k8odsp/mengeletwins.jpg


We also have an accusation that massive documentation of crimes was destroyed.
http://www.mengele.dk/new_page_2.htm
Once Mengele's assistant rounded up 14 pairs of Gypsy twins during the night. Mengele placed them on his polished marble dissection table and put them to sleep. He then proceeded to inject chloroform into their hearts, killing them instantaneously. He then began dissecting and meticulously noting each and every piece of the twins' bodies.

Unfortunately a strict veil of secrecy over the experiments enabled Mengele to do his work more effectively. The full extent of his gruesome work will never be known because the records he sent to Dr. Von Verschuer at the Kaiser Wilhelm Institute were shipped out in two truckloads and destroyed by the latter. Any remaining notes Mengele carried with him on his escape to South America and were never found.


From the book The Myth of Race: The Troubling Persistence of an Unscientific Idea By Robert Wald Sussman
"In February 1945, Von Verschuer managed to ship equipment, his library and boxes of records to his home in Solz (Muller-Hill 1998). He had other documents destroyed, including all of his correspondence with Menegle, before his instituate was taken over by the "enemy."


From here:
http://genocide.leadr.msu.edu/the-angel-of-death/
"Mengele’s Flee and Capture

By the time the Russians had entered Auschwitz, Mengele was long gone. He fled west and did everything he could to cover his tracks. Others tried to deny connection with him as well; Professor von Verschuer had Mengele’s documents removed from the institution and demolished any evidence of association with him. For two months, Mengele stayed with the Wehrmacht soldiers, the military of the Nazis, in Czechoslovakia and eventually made their way to what is now East Germany and was previously Saxony. The unit he was with was captured by Americans, but Mengele showed no evidence of affiliation with the SS. Because of his luck and lies, Mengele was freed 6 weeks after his detainment (Posner and Ware). Freedom was sweet, but what Mengele really wanted was his research documents. Soon after his release Mengele risked being captured again and entered a Russian zone where a nurse friend of his was holding his documents. His mission was a success and he then went to Munich to stay with a trusted friend. Mengele was smart in his concealment; he altered the release papers of a friend and went by the cover name “Fritz Hollman.” Using his alias, Mengele attained a job at the farm of Georg and Maria Fischer. Mengele’s anxiety over capture grew and by the spring of 1949 he decided to flee to Argentina (Lynott)."


From Mengele: The Complete Story by Gerald L. Posner.
As Mengele fled Gross Rosen, the man who had secured his posting to Auschwitz moved quickly to cover his ownt racks. Professor von Verschuer shipped two truckloads of documents from his research institute in Berlin, taking care to destroy all of his correspondence with the Auschwitz doctor. [2]


From In Our Hearts We Were Giants: The Remarkable Story of the Lillipuet Troupe A Dwarf Family's Survival of the Holocaust. By Yehuda Koren, Eilat Negev
Mengele's academic rival, Professor Hans Grebe, obtained a teaching position in the Department of Human GEnetics at the University of Marburg in 1953; in 1957 he became president of the German Association of Sports Doctors. Grebe, like von Verschuer, vigorously denied any collaboration with Mengele at Auschwitz. He also destroyed all incriminating documents. The medical records kept by von Verschuer at the Kaiser Wilhelm Institute are not available to researchers; in a bizarre irony, sixty years after the extermination, the Nazi doctors' Jewish victims have been transformed by German officials into esteemed patients whose right to privacy must be steadfastly safeguarded.

Um, somebody should tell Yehuda Koren and Eilat Negev that other authors are claiming these documents are supposed to be the ones that were shipped out in two truckloads and destroyed. Can these Jewish authors at least get together and get their theses straight in agreement?

Finally, I have this.
https://s32.postimg.org/pealz47z9/mengeleconfess.jpg
What is noted here in red is heresay and can not be satisfactorily proven. I'm not even sure the son is telling the truth. Perhaps if that German souce in footnote 527 was located, along with a couple others, further insight could be gained into what Von Vouscher's son really said or did. Tödliche Wissenschaft. Die Aussonderung von Juden, Zigeunern und Geisteskranken 1933-1945 p. 129. (Murderous Science. The segregation of Jews, gypsies and the mentally ill 1933-1945)
Again, this would be another interesting line to look into to see what turns up.

I am more interested in the primary source for the claim that Von Verschuer destroyed two truckloads of documents. If it is in fact Miklos himself making that claim, then that poses problems for the credibilty of such a claim given his already outrageous other statements, and the apparent refusal of Mengele to kill the witnesses to his crimes, as Carlo pointed out.

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Re: Josef Mengele: Sportsmanlike - The Hardest Working Deception of WWII (new video)

Postby borjastick » 1 year 7 months ago (Wed Jul 13, 2016 12:28 am)

Some time ago I responded to a similar thread about Mengele and twins. In that response I cast doubt on the figures of twins he was supposed to have rounded up and operated on.

Again above we see a figure of 3000 twins is claimed to have been plucked from their families and used in experiments. That could be 1500 pairs or 3000 pairs but it matters not too much.

I did some research on the incidence of twins and it would appear that this level of twins could not have existed in such a small selection of children at the time. I don't have that figure to hand at the moment but maybe the Mod can direct me to my earlier comment.

But you only have to ask yourself how often do you see twins, and I mean identical twins as otherwise they would not have been selected as claimed, in day to day life. The answer is almost zero, thus one must ask how on earth 3000 twins could have been in existence in about 1m people in auschwitz??

OK having looked into this a little more I think I can see where this claim of 3000 twins has come from.

The general incidence of twins (not necessarily identical twins) is about 3.5 per one thousand births. This can be higher but tends to only happen in Africa and some south american groups.

So it would appear they have simply taken the figure of 3.5 per thousand and then extrapolated that across the total claimed inmate population of auschwitz. That would be a mistake though as the 3.5 per 1000 would apply to the general population and so you would have 3000 twins in a group of 1m adults and children. IOW you would have to have a group of one million children in front of you to stand any chance of finding 3000 twins and really that is doubtful as the incidence of twins at 3.5 per thousand does not imply they are all identical, just the opposite actually.

Thus the claim is bogus unless someone can claim that jews produce many more identical twins than do other races. And do not forget the fact that many children were born in auschwitz so how many of them were twins??
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Re: Josef Mengele: Sportsmanlike - The Hardest Working Deception of WWII (new video)

Postby Hannover » 1 year 7 months ago (Wed Jul 13, 2016 1:32 am)

Excellent work, borjastick.
Did you follow that, onetruth?

It must be so demoralizing to the usual enemies of free speech when logically crunching some numbers reveals the impossibility of yet another of their laughable 'holocau$t' claims.

These Holocaust deniers are very slick people. They justify everything they say with facts and figures."

- Steven Some, Chairman of the New Jersey Commission on Holocaust Education, Newark Star-Ledger, 23 Oct. 1996, p 15.

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The 'holocaust' storyline is one of the most easily debunked narratives ever contrived. That is why those who question it are arrested and persecuted. That is why violent, racist, & privileged Jewish supremacists demand censorship. What sort of truth is it that denies free speech and the freedom to seek the truth? Truth needs no protection from scrutiny.

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Re: Josef Mengele: Sportsmanlike - The Hardest Working Deception of WWII (new video)

Postby onetruth » 1 year 7 months ago (Wed Jul 13, 2016 4:03 am)

borjastick wrote:
So it would appear they have simply taken the figure of 3.5 per thousand and then extrapolated that across the total claimed inmate population of auschwitz. That would be a mistake though as the 3.5 per 1000 would apply to the general population and so you would have 3000 twins in a group of 1m adults and children. IOW you would have to have a group of one million children in front of you to stand any chance of finding 3000 twins and really that is doubtful as the incidence of twins at 3.5 per thousand does not imply they are all identical, just the opposite actually.



if you are into statistics maybe you would like to wonder what are the statistic likelihood of the following :

Out of some 60,000 that survived auschwitz less than 1000 where children . Maybe you would like to wonder is this a normal statistic for a population, to have 1 child for every 60 adults ?

Out of less than 1000 children about 200 where twins. Maybe you would like to wonder how it came to be that about 20% of the children survivors where TWINS ? Is that a normal population statistic ?

Or is it it due to the fact that the Nazis specifically selected and kept separately and under better condition sets of twins.

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Re: Josef Mengele: Sportsmanlike - The Hardest Working Deception of WWII (new video)

Postby borjastick » 1 year 7 months ago (Wed Jul 13, 2016 4:59 am)

I said this -

So it would appear they have simply taken the figure of 3.5 per thousand and then extrapolated that across the total claimed inmate population of auschwitz. That would be a mistake though as the 3.5 per 1000 would apply to the general population and so you would have 3000 twins in a group of 1m adults and children. IOW you would have to have a group of one million children in front of you to stand any chance of finding 3000 twins and really that is doubtful as the incidence of twins at 3.5 per thousand does not imply they are all identical, just the opposite actually.


Slight correction for clarity. I meant and so you would NOT have 3000 twins in a group of 1m adults and children.
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Re: Josef Mengele: Sportsmanlike - The Hardest Working Deception of WWII (new video)

Postby Hannover » 1 year 7 months ago (Wed Jul 13, 2016 10:15 am)

onetruth, you said
if you are into statistics maybe you would like to wonder what are the statistic likelihood of the following :

Out of some 60,000 that survived auschwitz less than 1000 where children . Maybe you would like to wonder is this a normal statistic for a population, to have 1 child for every 60 adults ?

Out of less than 1000 children about 200 where twins. Maybe you would like to wonder how it came to be that about 20% of the children survivors where TWINS ? Is that a normal population statistic ?

Or is it it due to the fact that the Nazis specifically selected and kept separately and under better condition sets of twins.

Oh really?
Then please provide proof for your statement: "Out of some 60,000 that survived auschwitz less than 1000 where children".

Please provide proof for your statements: "Out of less than 1000 children about 200 where twins. Maybe you would like to wonder how it came to be that about 20% of the children survivors where TWINS".

It certainly appears that you are making this nonsense up out of whole cloth.

I also note that you have dodged my previous requests for proof of your claims, see previous posts.

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Re: Josef Mengele: Sportsmanlike - The Hardest Working Deception of WWII (new video)

Postby onetruth » 1 year 7 months ago (Wed Jul 13, 2016 2:14 pm)

Hannover wrote:Please provide proof for your statements: "Out of less than 1000 children about 200 where twins. Maybe you would like to wonder how it came to be that about 20% of the children survivors where TWINS".

It certainly appears that you are making this nonsense up out of whole cloth.



I base my numbers on data given by your own article written on mengele by Carlo Mattogno.

Here is a link to his article :

http://inconvenienthistory.com/archive/ ... php#_edn66

let us start with the number of twins found in auschwitz

I would look for a copy of the following list :

See APPENDIX Table 2 – List of Twins at Auschwitz :

here is an example of how they are listed :


Registration number Family name Given name Date of birth/age Date of liberation (L = Liberated )

169061 Guttman Rene 21 Dec. 1937 27 Jan. 1945
70917 Guttman Irene 21 Dec. 1937 27 Jan. 1945
A-17545 Hadl Gyuri 7 27 Jan. 1945
A-17546 Hadl Paul 7 27 Jan. 1945
5

And the list go on on on , i counted more than 200 names , but you should try and count it for yourself .

In any case however you count it , the list ( provided by Mattogno , to remind you ) shows that most of the children liberated by the Russian from auschwitz where in fact twins.

It is beyond me how Mattogno wrote an article trying to clear mengele , yet not see the elephant in the room - the abnormal freaky percentage of those children being twins.

The numbers show without doubt that the twins where in fact kept separately by the Nazis and would like to know Mattogno explanation and the revisionist stand on the question : why where there so many twins liberated from Auschwitz ?


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Re: Josef Mengele: Sportsmanlike - The Hardest Working Deception of WWII (new video)

Postby Tomt » 1 year 7 months ago (Wed Jul 13, 2016 4:15 pm)

I don't think those statistics are unreasonable at all. I think other camps had similar statistics as far as how many children out of the adults there were. Buchenwald only had less than 1000 children liberated. Ann Frank died within months while arriving at Belsen. I think it's reasonable that children died at a higher rate because of disease. This seems to be the case at camps that were not considered death camps. As far as twins it's true that they housed a lot of twins. If twins were constantly cared for I would expect them to be most of the survivors. I mean if only 200 out of 3000 twins admitted survived that is a high death rate. I think you would have to look at the children death rate at other camps to compare. That's my 2 cents.

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Re: Josef Mengele: Sportsmanlike - The Hardest Working Deception of WWII (new video)

Postby hermod » 1 year 7 months ago (Wed Jul 13, 2016 4:18 pm)

onetruth wrote:It is beyond me how Mattogno wrote an article trying to clear mengele , yet not see the elephant in the room - the abnormal freaky percentage of those children being twins.


He did see your "elephant in the room." He wrote:

"When the Soviets arrived, there were still 205 children at Birkenau, from just a few months up to 15 years of age, many of them twins."

Not Mattogno's fault that you can't understand or remember what you've just read.

The numbers show without doubt that the twins where in fact kept separately by the Nazis and would like to know Mattogno explanation and the revisionist stand on the question : why where there so many twins liberated from Auschwitz ?


For science. To study environmental effects (most probably)...

According to H. Kubica (as quoted by Mattogno):

As shown by reports of inmates who performed tasks in the twins block, as well as reports from the twins themselves, the individual pairs of twins were subjected by Dr. Mengele to research of any kind, which constituted the starting point for the performance of the most varied types of experiments on the same. In general, they were subjected to anthropometric, morphological, psychiatric and radiological research. The anthropological research was initially performed in Dr. Mengele’s laboratory in the sauna of the gypsy camp. In November 1944, this laboratory was transferred to barracks 15, in the vicinity of the men’s hospital (BIIf). Every individual part of the body of the persons subjected to examination was measured in the most accurate manner: the twins were measured in pairs, comparing the results. The documentation contained annotations of the shape of the mouth, the nose, the muscles of the ears, the colour of the eyes and skin of the individual parts of the body."

Twin study implies nothing sinister and is still being used today (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twin_study).
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Re: Josef Mengele: Sportsmanlike - The Hardest Working Deception of WWII (new video)

Postby Hannover » 1 year 7 months ago (Wed Jul 13, 2016 6:03 pm)

onetruth:
So now you are dodging the beating that borjastick put on you and jumping to something else, aka: moving the goal posts. Quite revealing.

Did you even read Mattogno's article? It makes mincemeat out of the laughable claims about Dr. Mengele.
http://inconvenienthistory.com/archive/ ... s.php#_edn

some points:

According to the storyline all these children would have been gassed.

Mattogno:
"No official historian has yet succeeded in explaining why these children were not gassed immediately upon arrival. In reality, it is not so surprising, because on 16 January 1945, in just the men’s camp at Birkenau, there were 770 “Jugendliche bis 18. Jhr.” (youths aged up to 18 years), in addition to 400 “Invaliden” (invalids)!37 When the Soviets arrived, there were still 205 children at Birkenau, from just a few months up to 15 years of age, many of them twins.38"
Oops!

Mattogno:
Notwithstanding this abundant documentation, H. Kubica notes:

“Nevertheless, unfortunately, it has not been possible to find any document showing how many gypsy twins passed through Dr. Mengele’s laboratory.”18
Not a single one.

Mattogno:
At this point, the Polish researcher unveils her “decisive witness”: none other than the notorious impostor Miklos Nyiszli! The whole fable of Dr. Mengele’s “crimes” originates from the ravings of this mythomaniac, to whom I shall return in greater detail in the section below devoted to him."

Ah yes, Nyiszli, who is the main source for the unsupportable Mengele claims.
You have ignored the demolition of that shyster in the article, why?

And then there is the inconvenient howler of so many "witnesses".

Mattogno:
If this had been true, Dr. Mengele would have proceeded to liquidate all the witnesses of his alleged criminal activity – his collaborators who also worked with twins – before leaving Auschwitz on 17 January 1945. He had enough time! But he allowed all the “eyewitnesses” of his alleged crimes to survive ..."


Mattogno:
In conclusion, the known facts are as follows:

Dr. Mengele’s alleged crimes are not proven by any document. No document shows that Mengele ever killed even one single child, or that one single child was ever killed on his orders. The essential and sole witness, the one upon whose testimony the whole accusation is based, was an extraordinarily creative impostor. Dr. Mengele’s closest collaborators, including the presumed essential witness, and at least 543 of his “victims” were allowed to live: but how, then, are we to believe seriously in the fairy tale of the “Angel of Death” of Auschwitz?"

And you continue to dodge my previous requests for you to back up your bizarre claims, see earlier posts.

Game, set, match.

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Re: Josef Mengele: Sportsmanlike - The Hardest Working Deception of WWII (new video)

Postby borjastick » 1 year 7 months ago (Thu Jul 14, 2016 2:18 am)

So here we go again. Believers jump on some obtuse piece of data they think won't be checked and pored over and make a ridiculous claim. In this case it's the Menegele routine of his non stop abuse of thousands of twin children. That they couldn't have even been born at that rate let alone be in auschwitz seems totally irrelevant to those who make these claims.

So for the hard of understanding I repeat that you would have to have had approximately one million children in Auschwitz to have been able to have 3000 twins at your disposal.

Clearly, as demonstrated above, the claim that there was a freakily high number of twins in the camps is nonsense.

The trouble with revisionists is they use science and evidence to back up their claims.

Damn that science stuff, it always gets in the way of a good story...
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Re: Josef Mengele: Sportsmanlike - The Hardest Working Deception of WWII (new video)

Postby onetruth » 1 year 5 months ago (Thu Sep 01, 2016 11:58 am)

Rolf Mengele on meeting his father, Dr. Josef Mengele -

I suggest you see minute : 3:19 - Mengele admits to his son participating in selections sending people to there death :


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Re: Josef Mengele: Sportsmanlike - The Hardest Working Deception of WWII (new video)

Postby Hannover » 1 year 5 months ago (Thu Sep 01, 2016 3:44 pm)

onetruth:
Rolf Mengele on meeting his father, Dr. Josef Mengele -

I suggest you see minute : 3:19 - Mengele admits to his son participating in selections sending people to there death :

No he didn't.

In fact the son says his father said it was "a lie, propaganda", the son then says he "thinks this was admitted (selections) very clearly", please review the video.
There is nothing there about 'exterminating Jews'. Quite the contrary,

Of course, no one questions that Auschwitz labor camp inmates were 'selected' for worked based upon their age & health.
And the fact that Jews who were not selected for labor were not killed shoots down entire matter.
Equating 'selection' with mass murder is not based upon fact & rational thinking.

Recall the thousands of Jews who retreated with the SS and thousands of Jews that stayed to await the advancing communsts after being given a choice to stay or go with the SS, most went with the SS.
Recall Jews born at Auschwitz.
Recall Jews being treated for illnesses at Auschwitz.

Not a very good effort, onetruth.

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So called "holocaust eyewitnesses" making absurd, impossible, and contradictory claims is not the exception, but the rule.
Revisionists are just the messengers, the absurd impossibility of the laughable 'holocaust' storyline is the message.
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Re: Josef Mengele: Sportsmanlike - The Hardest Working Deception of WWII (new video)

Postby Hektor » 1 year 5 months ago (Thu Sep 01, 2016 5:11 pm)

Hannover wrote:onetruth:
Rolf Mengele on meeting his father, Dr. Josef Mengele -

I suggest you see minute : 3:19 - Mengele admits to his son participating in selections sending people to there death :

No he didn't.

In fact the son says his father said it was "a lie, propaganda", the son then says he "thinks this was admitted (selections) very clearly", please review the video.
There is nothing there about 'exterminating Jews'. Quite the contrary,

Of course, no one questions that Auschwitz labor camp inmates were 'selected' for worked based upon their age & health.
And the fact that Jews who were not selected for labor were not killed shoots down entire matter.
Equating 'selection' with mass murder is not based upon fact & rational thinking.
....

Even with the biggest bias in favor of an Exterminationist position, Rolf doesn't admit or claim that his father confirmed selection FOR GASSING or EXTERMINATION. In fact it's clear that Josef Mengele dismissed such allegations as atrocity propaganda.
That's quite extraordinary. If we assume that there was a National Socialist Policy of exterminating Jews in Auschwitz, wouldn't we expect Mengele to proudly announce this to his son explaining the necessity of it all? But old Mengele didn't do that.

What Rolf Mengele reports is 100% in line with the general Revisionist Position. This is the case although I think that Rolf actually essentially believed the Holocaust narrative as he was hegemonial at the time.

So it's an excellent find, for which we ought to thank you OneTruth!


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