Population movements - a defect in revisionist scholarship?

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EtienneSC
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Population movements - a defect in revisionist scholarship?

Postby EtienneSC » 3 years 2 months ago (Thu Jul 28, 2016 11:44 am)

I spend some time on non-revisionist forums - e.g. skeptics international forum - and elsewhere debating revisionist ideas. The strongest objection I meet with is along the lines of:
"You say the transported Jews weren't gassed, shot, burned, etc, but you have no plausible or detailed account of what happened to them. Well, I prefer to stay with the established story until you have a better account of where these millions of people went."

There is some validity to this, though it is not decisive. We have detailed revisionist studies of the individual camps (Auschwitz, Maijdanek, Belzec, Treblinka, Sobibor, Chelmno) and revisionist work on the Einsatzgruppen is beginning to appear (Vincent Reynouard's recent videos, Mattogno's projected work scheduled for the end of 2017). These however, largely consist of objections to the alleged mechanics of or evidence for illegal killings.

To illustrate the problem: people were deported or sent to Auschwitz. There is some information on numbers (Danuta Czech's Auschwitz Kalendarium, Hilberg, for example). There is evidence (unquantified) of people after the war being transited through displaced person camps and ending up in Israel, USA and other countries or remaining behind the Iron Curtain. Is there though, no more that can be done to fill in the intervening period?

There is little granularity on the numbers of people deported (lists of names do not exist, at least for one camp, so I am told). Hence, the numbers of deportees may be questionable. I am not aware of much information on what possible destinations there could have been.

The main points though, are:
1. Upper Silesia where Auschwitz was located was the center of an industrial region for which Auschwitz was the Stammlager (Stalag, source camp):
https://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/media_nm.php?ModuleId=10005189&MediaId=5009
Is there any coherent, quantifiable account of people arriving elsewhere in Upper Silesia from Auschwitz? The Auschwitz camp records have survived. Are there no records from the other camps or factories in Upper Silesia?
2. What about records of people being employed digging anti-tank ditches, living in towns or employed in agriculture further east than the Aktion Reinhard camps? Surely these would generate paper work (orders of work to be done, supplies being paid for, etc) among a variety of army and civilian institutions. I know that Mattogno et al devote 100 or so pages of "Extermination Camps" of "AR" to the subject in 2013, but there is a lack of adequate detail, as is widely acknowledged.

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Re: Population movements - a defect in revisionist scholarship?

Postby Dresden » 3 years 2 months ago (Thu Jul 28, 2016 12:53 pm)

EtienneSC said:

"You say the transported Jews weren't gassed, shot, burned, etc, but you have no plausible or detailed account of what happened to them. Well, I prefer to stay with the established story until you have a better account of where these millions of people went."

It was "proven" at Nuremberg hat 4,000,000 people were exterminated at Auschwitz.

In 1990 the number was lowered to 1.1 to 1.5 million; now the official number is about one million.

What Revisionists want to know is.....

Where did these non-dead victims wander off to?

Where'd they go???

It was "proven" at Nuremberg that 2,000,000 Jews were exterminated at Majdanek.

Now the official number is 78,000.

Where are the resurrected 1,922,000 Jews hiding?

Where'd they go???

The same can be repeated for several other camps where the numbers have been lowered.

Why don't you ask these questions on one of the "non-Revisionist" forums and see what kind of answer you get?

Jews went where Jews are.

Millions of Jews went to America

Millions of Jews went to occupied Palestine.

Europe, Canada and Australia are crawling with Jews!

There are millions of Jews in Poland and Russia.
Maybe, just maybe, they believe what they are telling you about the 'holocaust', but maybe, just maybe, their contempt for your intelligence and your character is beyond anything you could ever have imagined. -- Bradley Smith

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Re: Population movements - a defect in revisionist scholarship?

Postby Hektor » 3 years 2 months ago (Thu Jul 28, 2016 3:56 pm)

EtienneSC wrote:I spend some time on non-revisionist forums - e.g. skeptics international forum - and elsewhere debating revisionist ideas. The strongest objection I meet with is along the lines of:
"You say the transported Jews weren't gassed, shot, burned, etc, but you have no plausible or detailed account of what happened to them. Well, I prefer to stay with the established story until you have a better account of where these millions of people went."

There is some validity to this, though it is not decisive. We have detailed revisionist studies of the individual camps (Auschwitz, Maijdanek, Belzec, Treblinka, Sobibor, Chelmno) and revisionist work on the Einsatzgruppen is beginning to appear (Vincent Reynouard's recent videos, Mattogno's projected work scheduled for the end of 2017). These however, largely consist of objections to the alleged mechanics of or evidence for illegal killings.
....

It's the old "If the six million weren't gassed, where did they go"-canard. Essentially that's an attempt of shifting the burden of proof. It's also a red herring. The point is to proof that "millions of Jews have been gassed by the 'Nazis' as part of a plan to exterminate the Jews'. That story is widespread, but it's hardly an established fact. And you can't use Court Cases when the narrative was basically accepted by default, by the court, and they just tried to establish "participation" or "degree of guilt" of the accused there. The absence of Jews from places of former settlement does proof nothing, except that they may not be living there anymore under there prior name. Sure it would be helpful, if one could point out what happened to Jews that were deported and presumably gassed in Auschwitz. But it's not required proof to dismiss the Holocaust as bogus atrocity propaganda. There is far more and better evidence that points into that direction then Jews being killed in homicidal gas chambers. I mean that the Allies used atrocity propaganda and had special divisions for psychological warfare isn't really in dispute, isn't it? Also that they forged and misrepresented evidence to get it their way is something nobody knowledgeable about the subject would seriously dispute.

You of course have a point that information on "where Jews went" after the war, would be more then valuable to strengthen the case against the Holocaust. But we do have some indications that they were deported further Eastward including undisputed Nuremberg Testimony and also some information on Ghettos established in Belarus and elsewhere in the East. If most of them were deported there, that would also explain why not much info is available on this. Except for court historians bothering to look, those places came under the control of the Soviet Union after the Axis was vanquished in world war two. They had a really totalitarian system that could suppress dissemination of information as well.

Apropos Court Case:
Imagine a court case, Piet is accused of murdering Mike. There is no corpse, no murder weapon, just a photo of Mike being at Piet's bar. Some visitors, that don't like Piet, claim that Piet killed Mike in a very strange manner and made all the evidence of this vanish. Other visitors claim to know nothing, but some claim to recall rumors. They say that Piet didn't particularly liked Mike and it's known that Mike threatened Piet and didn't pay for beers he drunk at the bar. Still nobody knows were Mike is. There is also fake photos, documents that supposedly proof that Piet hurt Mike.

But ask yourself would that be enough to claim that it has been established that Piet killed Mike?

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Re: Population movements - a defect in revisionist scholarship?

Postby Hannover » 3 years 2 months ago (Thu Jul 28, 2016 6:13 pm)

"You say the transported Jews weren't gassed, shot, burned, etc, but you have no plausible or detailed account of what happened to them. Well, I prefer to stay with the established story until you have a better account of where these millions of people went."

That's quite bizarre since the marketers of the "established" storyline say they know exactly where Jews went.

They claim that Jews went to enormous mass graves, quick examples:
900,000 Jews supposedly buried in mass graves at Treblinka, 34,000 Jews allegedly buried at Babi Yar.

So they need to actually show us the alleged enormous 'mass graves'. Show us verifiable excavations where remains of massive numbers Jews are visible, and verified, not merely claimed. They cannot.

Hektor:
Apropos Court Case:
Imagine a court case, Piet is accused of murdering Mike. There is no corpse, no murder weapon, just a photo of Mike being at Piet's bar. Some visitors, that don't like Piet, claim that Piet killed Mike in a very strange manner and made all the evidence of this vanish. Other visitors claim to know nothing, but some claim to recall rumors. They say that Piet didn't particularly liked Mike and it's known that Mike threatened Piet and didn't pay for beers he drunk at the bar. Still nobody knows were Mike is. There is also fake photos, documents that supposedly proof that Piet hurt Mike.
But ask yourself would that be enough to claim that it has been established that Piet killed Mike?

And that's just for ONE alleged murder. The impossible 'holocaust' storyline claims that 6,000,000 Jews AND 5,000,000 others were all murdered and their remains buried in massive, massive graves in allegedly known locations.
That's 11,000,000 and not a single excavated enormous mass grave as alleged can be shown. NOT ONE!!

Shredding the 'holocaust' nonsense is really too easy.

Must reads here:

'J. Graf and the illogical canard: 'Where did Jews go then?' / & more'
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=8272

'WJC's Stephen Wise said 1,250,000 - 1,500,000 Polish Jews homeless in Europe, outside of Poland, & alive after WWII'
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=10191

'Concentration Camp Vital Statistics'
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=7581

It's curious that some people want 6,000,000 Jews and 5,000,000 'others' to be dead? Revisionists don't.

- Hannover

Revisionists are just the messengers, the absurd impossibility of the laughable 'holocaust' storyline is the message.

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If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Re: Population movements - a defect in revisionist scholarship?

Postby hermod » 3 years 2 months ago (Fri Jul 29, 2016 10:39 am)

I've always wondered why the Zionists & the victors of WW2 would have documented and publicized large Jewish post-war population movements debunking both their own WW2 self-revering atrocity propaganda and Israel's founding myth. What would they have gained from that? They controlled the post-war world and they had no good reason to demolish the narrative supposed to justify that domination. States don't act without purposes.
"But, however the world pretends to divide itself, there are ony two divisions in the world to-day - human beings and Germans. – Rudyard Kipling, The Morning Post (London), June 22, 1915

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Re: Population movements - a defect in revisionist scholarship?

Postby Hektor » 3 years 2 months ago (Thu Aug 04, 2016 6:55 am)

Generally there are different casualty categories in or after a war both for military staff and civilians:
- Killed
- Imprisoned
- Missing

The six million Jews are almost always to be all killed. There are no "Missing" Jews. They were "All killed in the Holocaust".
When this is an "established" fact from an early stage, the logical conclusion is that relatives, friends, governments, NGO's will stop looking for them assuming that they're dead anyway.

Now, if you ask people later about this, they also will report that they're dead.

Imagine a circle of 3 friends that emigrated or was deported during the war. If you have three separate survivors, you can get 6 separate "Holocaust victims", just from that limited group!

But that isn't how figures were established anyway, in fact, how they did that still remains a bit obscure. dead.

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Re: Population movements - a defect in revisionist scholarship?

Postby EtienneSC » 3 years 2 months ago (Sat Aug 06, 2016 5:44 am)

hermod wrote:I've always wondered why the Zionists & the victors of WW2 would have documented and publicized large Jewish post-war population movements debunking both their own WW2 self-revering atrocity propaganda and Israel's founding myth.

All the more reason for us to try and fill the gap. Here are three possible lines of investigation:

1. However, there is a list of names for the Dutch deportees sent from Westerbork, supposedly to Sobibor here:
http://www.archieven.nl/nl/zoeken?mivast=0&mizig=210&miadt=298&miaet=1&micode=804&minr=1030091&miview=inv2
Are we correct in saying that there is no trace of anyone of these names after the war? There are some reports of Dutch Jews visiting the Netherlands from Israel after the war (this from memory). Would it be possible to derive names from Dutch immigration records?

2. In the case of Auschwitz, this was a Stammlager (Stalag) with numerous camps in its vicinity in Upper Silesia. These include:
Neustadt
Blechhammer
Hindenburgh
Gleiwitz I - IV
Charlottengrube
Althammer
Guenthergrube
Kabler
Babitz
Altdorf
Tchechowitz
Golleschau
Eintrachthuette
Hubertueshuette
Laurahuette
Bismarckhuette
Lagische
Kattowitz
Sosnowitz
Fuerstengrube
Neudachs
Chelmak
Konzendorf
Janinagrube
Bobrek
Rajako
Jawischowitz
Harmense
Budy
Plawy
https://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/media_nm.php?ModuleId=10005189&MediaId=5009
Are there any surviving records of admissions to these camps? If yes, so they contain names? If not, this constitutes prima facie unquantified evidence (from the existence of the camps) of untraced inhabitants, perhaps Jewish, in the area at the time.

3. There is a lack of granularity for the numbers sent through the Aktion Reinhard camps (there is no list of names to support the famous 1,247,166 figure, so I'm told). The holocaust controversies team have a report of a list of destinations for early deportees though.

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Re: Population movements - a defect in revisionist scholarship?

Postby EtienneSC » 3 years 2 months ago (Sat Aug 06, 2016 10:10 am)

EtienneSC wrote:In the case of Auschwitz, this was a Stammlager (Stalag) with numerous camps in its vicinity in Upper Silesia.

Is there an English version of Jürgen Graf's article: "Was geschah mit den nach Auschwitz deportierten, jedoch nicht registrierten Juden?" (Vierteljahrhefte für freie Geschichtsforschung, 2/2, 2000, 140-49)

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Re: Population movements - a defect in revisionist scholarship?

Postby hermod » 3 years 2 months ago (Sat Aug 06, 2016 11:32 am)

EtienneSC wrote:
hermod wrote:I've always wondered why the Zionists & the victors of WW2 would have documented and publicized large Jewish post-war population movements debunking both their own WW2 self-revering atrocity propaganda and Israel's founding myth.

All the more reason for us to try and fill the gap.


Defensible. But one could argue as well that this approach amounts to accepting the reverse burden of proof that Holohoaxsters always impose on us. Perhaps it's time to stop acting as if any defendant was supposed to prove that his alleged victims didn't die. Perhaps it's just time to drop the continuation of Nuremberg's upside down rigged rules...
"But, however the world pretends to divide itself, there are ony two divisions in the world to-day - human beings and Germans. – Rudyard Kipling, The Morning Post (London), June 22, 1915

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Re: Population movements - a defect in revisionist scholarship?

Postby Dresden » 3 years 2 months ago (Sat Aug 06, 2016 11:43 am)

EtienneSC wrote:
EtienneSC wrote:In the case of Auschwitz, this was a Stammlager (Stalag) with numerous camps in its vicinity in Upper Silesia.

Is there an English version of Jürgen Graf's article: "Was geschah mit den nach Auschwitz deportierten, jedoch nicht registrierten Juden?" (Vierteljahrhefte für freie Geschichtsforschung, 2/2, 2000, 140-49)


Here you go:

http://www.historiography-project.com/j ... _Graf.html
Maybe, just maybe, they believe what they are telling you about the 'holocaust', but maybe, just maybe, their contempt for your intelligence and your character is beyond anything you could ever have imagined. -- Bradley Smith

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Re: Population movements - a defect in revisionist scholarship?

Postby Dresden » 2 years 1 month ago (Fri Aug 25, 2017 8:51 pm)

Israeli Grandfather Who Thought Family Perished in Holocaust Discovers 500 New Relatives

http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/1.804644

This is happening in 2017!

Ho hum ..... do I have to comment on this Moderator, or show what I think is "interesting" or "controversial" about my post?
Maybe, just maybe, they believe what they are telling you about the 'holocaust', but maybe, just maybe, their contempt for your intelligence and your character is beyond anything you could ever have imagined. -- Bradley Smith

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Re: Population movements - a defect in revisionist scholarship?

Postby Moderator » 2 years 1 month ago (Fri Aug 25, 2017 11:46 pm)

Dresden wrote:Israeli Grandfather Who Thought Family Perished in Holocaust Discovers 500 New Relatives

http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/1.804644
This is happening in 2017!
Ho hum ..... do I have to comment on this Moderator, or show what I think is "interesting" or "controversial" about my post?

Well, you could have ..... when it was posted three weeks ago. :lol:

'And here's 500 who were gassed and then they weren't gassed at all!'
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=11295
M1
Only lies need to be shielded from debate, truth welcomes it.

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Re: Population movements - a defect in revisionist scholarship?

Postby Dresden » 2 years 1 month ago (Fri Aug 25, 2017 11:53 pm)

Oh, dang it ..... I missed that.

Thanks!
Maybe, just maybe, they believe what they are telling you about the 'holocaust', but maybe, just maybe, their contempt for your intelligence and your character is beyond anything you could ever have imagined. -- Bradley Smith

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Re: Population movements - a defect in revisionist scholarship?

Postby borjastick » 2 years 1 month ago (Sat Aug 26, 2017 1:07 am)

First, again.
'Of the four million Jews under Nazi control in WW2, six million died and alas only five million survived.'

'We don't need evidence, we have survivors' - israeli politician

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Re: Population movements - a defect in revisionist scholarship?

Postby Elroy » 2 years 1 month ago (Sat Aug 26, 2017 10:24 pm)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stalin_and_antisemitism

^Read "After World War II" section above...

We can surmise that they emigrated. Whether Soviet records of emigration and/or name changes exist en mass is uncertain, or whether records of previous names and origin on arrival in Israel or elsewhere are archived either is also uncertain.

Fact is, it is proven beyond any reasonable doubt that they were NOT killed. Therefore the question is, YOU tell US where these people went?! Not the other way around.

As you can see the continual alleging they were killed in the face of overwhelming evidence, is just absurd.


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