Talking with believers

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Haldan
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Talking with believers

Postby Haldan » 1 decade 5 years ago (Wed May 12, 2004 12:32 pm)

It's almost depressing to talk with people who believe in the Holocaust as alleged. I recantly had little discussion with one, and it's not even possible to have a normal discussion with most of them.

Here is what he said, in his own words:

I was in Auschwitz Museum a year ago. If someone does not beliewe what happened there should go and see the tones of human hair that was collected for producing of farbic. Or tousands of pictures of dead bodies. Or tousands of golden teeth, garments, shues, artifical limbs and other belongings that ware collected from the victims befere they ware executed.
If anyone doesent believe can see the list of the names, numbers and the pictures of the victims. One of these names is the name of my grandfather.

Auschwitz was the biggest koncentration camp but not the only one. There ware almoust one hundert of them. Like Plaszow, Treblinka, Rawensbruecken, Dachau, Sachsenhausen.... The list is long. In all these places the same story.


If this is the average inteligence of a Believer than i don't know what to say. Any comments?
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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 5 years ago (Wed May 12, 2004 1:50 pm)

That's rather like saying: "I saw Spielberg's 'Close Encounters....' movie, don't tell me people aren't routinely abducted in UFOs by aliens from outer space".

Each and every one of the points mentioned by the indoctrinated have been debunked by Revisionists, every one. Hair, shoes, alleged 'photos', alleged 'captions' with 'photos', etc., etc.

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Postby rrohde » 1 decade 5 years ago (Wed May 12, 2004 2:49 pm)

It is quite interesting how, without tangible evidence, people believe those alleged claims.

As Hannover said -- this can be easily compared to the belief in UFOs; maybe even the belief in a "God" or things therelike. One really has to want to believe those things.... Common sense folks may not apply... :roll: ...all fine and dandy, until those believers say: "yes, it's true." To me, a belief is a non-provable opinion. Historical research on the other hand demands facts -- whose research, thanks to the "Holocau$t Industry", might be outlawed one day....

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Postby Sailor » 1 decade 5 years ago (Wed May 12, 2004 3:35 pm)

I find it rather difficult, if not impossible, to discuss the subject of the Holocaust with a Believer.

A German Believer explained to me once: "You have to believe it first, then the rest makes all sense."
He based his belief on the movie "Schindler's List" and the book by Goldenhagen: "Hitler's willing Executioners".

Here is an interesting debate on this subject:
Visit from 'Holocaust Survivor'
http://www.stormfront.org/forum/showthread.php?t=126849

Remember: The truth of Mary's "undefiled conception" was guarded just as carefully in the Middle Ages as the secret gas chambers in Auschwitz and elsewhere.

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More

Postby Haldan » 1 decade 5 years ago (Wed May 12, 2004 5:13 pm)

Here is more:

Let me tell you a little story. My grandfather, who is thankfully alive today, was forced into Belzec, a concentration camp in eastern Poland, in which over 500,000 Jews were killed in the one year it was in commission.

One morning, a German soldier woke him and 50 or so other Jews. They were told to go outside and begin digging. They dug for several hours, and then another German came and told them to line up, facing the hole they had dug, and to not turn around.

A few minutes later, my grandfather heard machine guns behind him. He saw many of the Jews with whom he had been living for the last few months fall into the hole with gun wounds. He knew that he would be killed if he remained standing there, so he acted like he was shot and fell forward. Several others fell on top of him, and he remained motionless for hours until nightfall, just in case a soldier happened to be walking by and looking into the hole. He was facing down, and he couldn't will himself to turn around to look up, because that might be the moment when a soldier is looking into the hole. Just imagine how traumatizing it is to lay with bloody, dead bodies under you and on top of you for an entire day. These people literally dug their own grave.

After it was dark for a while, my grandfather slowly climbed to the top of the pile of bodies and saw that no soldiers were in sight. He crept in the shadows toward a forest on one end of the camp and climbed a fence. He ripped a lot of skin off from his arms and legs because of the barbed wire at the top, but he made it over and into the forest. It was days before he found his way out, at which point he was horribly dehydrated, completely disoriented, and was literally on the last string of life. Fortunately, some people apparently found him (he can't remember this part) and brought him to a hospital. After he was treated, he left the country as quickly as possible.

Try explaining to him that the holocaust never really happened.


What if these people who was executed was ordinary jewish criminals? I guess he never considered that.
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Re: More

Postby J William » 1 decade 5 years ago (Thu May 13, 2004 6:09 am)

"...After it was dark for a while, my grandfather slowly climbed to the top of the pile of bodies and saw that no soldiers were in sight. He crept in the shadows toward a forest on one end of the camp and climbed a fence. He ripped a lot of skin off from his arms and legs because of the barbed wire at the top, but he made it over and into the forest. It was days before he found his way out, at which point he was horribly dehydrated, completely disoriented, and was literally on the last string of life. Fortunately, some people apparently found him (he can't remember this part) and brought him to a hospital. After he was treated, he left the country as quickly as possible."

Let's see if I understand this story. The grandfather is in a concentration camp in an area controlled by the Germans. After almost being murdered and crawling out of the pit (some feat in itself) he is rescued by "some people". He is brought to a hospital (presumedly under German control or at least under Gestapo surveilance) by these "some people" at great risk to themselves. He is treated, apparently without ID being produced or reports being made. So much for the efficency of the Gestapo in an occupied country or the lack of fear in the hospital personnel's minds. Then, supposedly after treatment, the grandfather flees the country. Possible but not plausable.

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Re: Talking with believers

Postby Dutch beginner » 5 years 1 month ago (Mon Jul 21, 2014 12:58 pm)

A few month ago, I, living in Holland, was also a believer in the Holocaust. When I read a comment of a person that the truth was coming out about the Holocaust, I began to laugh. But when I saw a video, probably made by Bradley Smith, I was not yet convinced but I want to read more about it. Then I saw the visit of David Cole. I also read about the Leuchter report and read about the forensic evidence, and the testimony's during the Zendel Trials.

Now I am converted to a revisionist.

Why was I so skeptical? Because in Holland the MSM is very clever. Yes, they show parts of interviews of revisionists, but only when they are nazi or when they are member of an ultra orthodox catholic group and wear a long skirt. First I did not notice the manipulation, but now I now it is framing.

In many guises a question appeared: Where was decided to destroy the Jews. Every body knows the answer. In Wannsee. I already read the Wannsee notifications. It is not human, it is disgusting, but it is false to claim that on Wannsee the destroy of the Jews where decided.

However, I have still a lot of questions. How is it possible that Auschwitz has a number of 1 million death people, when its capacity is so low. Why the fake train station in Sobibor, to let people believe that it is a way through railway.

Also, Holland has an enormous group of Jews which disappear for ever, when they were taken and imprisoned in the camps, only because they where Jew. More than 100,000 Jews never returned. Famous people like writers, plays in theaters, musicians. How did they die? Was it because diseases only? In David Cole's book it is mentioned that Jews were killed for a period in Auschwitz, via bullets.

“In 1943, Auschwitz Gestapo chief Grabner was arrested by the SS. SS judge Konrad Morgan claimed that the killings were done by the officers at the camp to “Make It Easy On Themselves” (See David Cole Animal Party)

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Re: Talking with believers

Postby Dresden » 5 years 1 month ago (Mon Jul 21, 2014 4:34 pm)

Hello, Dutch.....welcome to the Forum!

Dutch said:

"However, I have still a lot of questions. How is it possible that Auschwitz has a number of 1 million death people, when its capacity is so low. Why the fake train station in Sobibor, to let people believe that it is a way through railway"

You can go to this website and read Revisionist books for free:

http://vho.org/dl/ENG.html

I recommend:

"Dissecting the Holocaust"

"Auschwitz Lies: Legends, Lies, and Prejudices on the Holocaust"

and:

"Hoax of the Twentieth Century"

There are many to choose from.

You can also do a search on this Forum for such things as: "Sobibor", or whatever.
Maybe, just maybe, they believe what they are telling you about the 'holocaust', but maybe, just maybe, their contempt for your intelligence and your character is beyond anything you could ever have imagined. -- Bradley Smith

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Re: Talking with believers

Postby hermod » 5 years 1 month ago (Mon Jul 21, 2014 5:28 pm)

Welcome, Dutch beginner.

Dutch beginner wrote:In many guises a question appeared: Where was decided to destroy the Jews. Every body knows the answer. In Wannsee. I already read the Wannsee notifications. It is not human, it is disgusting, but it is false to claim that on Wannsee the destroy of the Jews where decided.


I can't believe that we still often hear of "the silly story that at Wannsee the extermination of the Jews was arrived at" over 20 years after Yehuda Bauer's concession. Speaks volumes about the exterminationists' desperation and the weakness of their narrative...

Image

However, I have still a lot of questions. How is it possible that Auschwitz has a number of 1 million death people, when its capacity is so low.


They say that 1 million people died at Auschwitz. They have no evidence proving that.

Nothing surprising if a few tens or hundreds of thousands of people died at Auschwitz. 3 million people in Poland & Romania, and 10 million people in Russia, died of typhus (also called "war fever") during WW1 and the following years. Serbia also experienced a very large typhus fever outbreak during WW1*. And no gas chambers were needed for that.


* Interestingly, British propagandists also accused the Austrians and Bulgarians of gassing Serbian children, women and old people to death in gas chambers during WW1.



Why the fake train station in Sobibor, to let people believe that it is a way through railway.


What evidence of the existence of such a fake train station at Sobibor? Testimonies?

If you think that testimonies have any evidential value, you should logically also believe in witches, ghosts, alien abductions, trolls, elves, bigfoots, the Loch Ness Monster, Jesus' miracles, Marian apparitions, etc.


Also, Holland has an enormous group of Jews which disappear for ever, when they were taken and imprisoned in the camps, only because they where Jew. More than 100,000 Jews never returned.


Killed? Disappearing doesn't imply that people were killed or even died. Police often look for people who have disappeared with the hope of finding them alive again.

I suppose that Holland's situation in the 1940's was similar to Belgium's situation and France's situation. Over 90% of the Jews living in Belgium in the 1940's were recent migrants who hadn't the Belgian nationality. The Nazis even accepted not to deport any Belgian Jews and that's what they did, what made Reitlinger remark that Belgium “lost virtually none” of its “native Jewish population” during WW2 (http://codoh.com/library/document/2808/). Many of the Eastern Jews deported from Belgium didn't come back after WW2. Does that mean that they had been killed and they had died? No, it doesn't. Why would they have come back in Belgium, a country where they had no strong ties, when they were given the opportunity to migrate to Palestine, America, Australia, etc.?


“In 1943, Auschwitz Gestapo chief Grabner was arrested by the SS. SS judge Konrad Morgan claimed that the killings were done by the officers at the camp to “Make It Easy On Themselves” (See David Cole Animal Party)


From what I know, Maximilian Grabner was arrested by Konrad Morgen in 1943 for theft, graft and corruption. Anyway, the Gestapo was not supposed to be part of the extermination of the Jews. That's was supposed to be the job of the SS, according to the Holocaust narrative.

Is that (Grabner saying that the killings were done by the officers) something Morgen told at Nuremberg after WW2? If so, Morgen also said at Nuremberg that the Auschwitz alleged gas chambers were located at Monowitz (Auschwitz 3), not at Birkenau (Auschwitz 2).
"But, however the world pretends to divide itself, there are ony two divisions in the world to-day - human beings and Germans. – Rudyard Kipling, The Morning Post (London), June 22, 1915

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Re: Talking with believers

Postby Hektor » 5 years 1 month ago (Mon Jul 21, 2014 5:33 pm)

Dutch beginner wrote:A few month ago, I, living in Holland, was also a believer in the Holocaust. When I read a comment of a person that the truth was coming out about the Holocaust, I began to laugh. But when I saw a video, probably made by Bradley Smith, I was not yet convinced but I want to read more about it. Then I saw the visit of David Cole. I also read about the Leuchter report and read about the forensic evidence, and the testimony's during the Zendel Trials.
Good to hear and welcome.
Dutch beginner wrote:Now I am converted to a revisionist.
And thanks for writing about your development.
Dutch beginner wrote:Why was I so skeptical? Because in Holland the MSM is very clever. Yes, they show parts of interviews of revisionists, but only when they are nazi or when they are member of an ultra orthodox catholic group and wear a long skirt. First I did not notice the manipulation, but now I now it is framing.
Where they can't crush people by shutting them up they devise other tactics.
Dutch beginner wrote:In many guises a question appeared: Where was decided to destroy the Jews. Every body knows the answer. In Wannsee. I already read the Wannsee notifications. It is not human, it is disgusting, but it is false to claim that on Wannsee the destroy of the Jews where decided.
If you understand German well, you may also know there is more then one thing fishy with the Wannsee protocoll, while it actually doesn't really lend itself to the extermination thesis at all.
Dutch beginner wrote:However, I have still a lot of questions. How is it possible that Auschwitz has a number of 1 million death people, when its capacity is so low. Why the fake train station in Sobibor, to let people believe that it is a way through railway.
I think you can elaborate on this in separate threads.
Dutch beginner wrote:Also, Holland has an enormous group of Jews which disappear for ever, when they were taken and imprisoned in the camps, only because they where Jew. More than 100,000 Jews never returned. Famous people like writers, plays in theaters, musicians. How did they die? Was it because diseases only? In David Cole's book it is mentioned that Jews were killed for a period in Auschwitz, via bullets.
I heard this argument from dutch people. It's basically a version of the "Where did they go, if they weren't exterminated" begging the question argument. I am also not to convinced about the net loss as sometimes portrayed, yes many were deported. But there are still many Jews in Amsterdam and other dutch cities. Also bear in mind that those deported were deported behind what became the iron curtain. Also think where the Jews in many other countries came from after the war. Apparently they were NOT exterminated.
Dutch beginner wrote:“In 1943, Auschwitz Gestapo chief Grabner was arrested by the SS. SS judge Konrad Morgan claimed that the killings were done by the officers at the camp to “Make It Easy On Themselves” (See David Cole Animal Party)

Frankfurt Auschwitz trial minutes are revealing some are actually in Dutch.

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Re: Talking with believers

Postby ivam » 5 years 1 month ago (Mon Jul 21, 2014 6:32 pm)

i find it fairly easy to convince people talking face to face, when they can see your emotions and that you actualy confidently, on the spot can produce evidence, quotes and references for your claims, its very easy to make someone at least doubt the official narrative or start some own research that way, except for the very very narrow minded persons. On the internet i find it ridiculously hard, so hard i dont even try anymore all you get there is profanity from ignorant mongrels who hide behind a screen in ignorance.

I tend to allways test the waters first tho when talking face to face, it can be hard times revealing to the wrong person that you dont believe in the holohoax. usualy start of with some ww2 revisionism, slowly edging my way into the subject with some curious facts and some oddities, and when i notice they bite on it and show interrest, you can approach the topic more broadly.

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Re: Talking with believers

Postby Moderator » 5 years 1 month ago (Mon Jul 21, 2014 6:58 pm)

Dutch beginner, a pleasure to have you.
We welcome all viewpoints concerning our stated subject.
Let me remind you that per our basic guidelines it's necessary to discuss one "holocaust" topic per thread. This avoids cluttered and difficult-to-follow threads. Please pursue topics one at a time. Also note that there are existing threads concerning your questions which you could post to, we have a search function which will help you find those threads.* However, feel free to start new threads if desired.
Please read our guidelines.
Thanks, M1

* ex.: Searching Grabner presently yields 39 results.
Only lies need to be shielded from debate, truth welcomes it.

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Re: Talking with believers

Postby PotPie » 5 years 1 month ago (Mon Jul 21, 2014 9:22 pm)

The only way to talk sense to people on this topic is to get them to let go of the knee-jerk emotionalism they've been taught like Pavlov's Dog the minute someone "denies" the Big H.

Unless someone is willing to put that aside, and the only hope you have of that is explaining to them they've been taught and question why they aren't throwing fits at other "denials" of accepted historical narrative, then you have no shot in hell of telling them anything, which is the entire idea behind why they're taught as they are anyway.

The most common claim I have heard is something involving American GIs in Germany seeing piles of emaciated corpses followed up with "I believe my grandpa" and "Then explain the corpses."

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Re: Talking with believers

Postby Hannover » 5 years 1 month ago (Mon Jul 21, 2014 10:54 pm)

Hello Dutch beginner.

Realizing that the guidelines dislike more than one topic per thread, I'll give some brief info. on Grabner and leave it at that.

While in custody of the communist Poles Grabner testified (at the Auschwitz Trial in Krakow) that 3,000,000 had been murdered through 1943 at Auschwitz - Birkenau. He was required to say this since it was part of the overall communist propaganda at the time which claimed that a total of 4,000,000 were murdered at A-B through 1945. As you probably know, that 4M has been revised to the lower, but equally fraudulent and impossible claim of ca. 1.25M. Of course the religiously sacred 6M was not lowered accordingly.

Grabner's testimony is necessarily fraudulent and was no doubt coerced out of him. There is simply nothing that he stated that is credible or proven. Such was the desperation of those hoping to save their neck from the communist gallows.

Remember, just because someone says something is true does not mean it is. One could go on & on about the absurdity of the impossible 'gas chambers' and the complete lack of alleged human remains etc., but we can get to those and more later.

As for discussing the 'holocaust' storyline with Believers, it's always informative to ask them why they so desperately want 6M murdered Jews. Revisionism brings good news, it's is a positive, life affirming movement, theirs is a bizarre religion of death.

The 'holocaust' storyline is one of the most easily debunked narratives ever contrived. That is why those who question it are arrested and persecuted. That is why violent, racist, & privileged Jewish supremacists demand censorship.
Truth needs no protection from scrutiny.

The Internet has demolished the lies. The tide is turning.


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If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Re: Talking with believers

Postby Dutch beginner » 5 years 1 month ago (Tue Jul 22, 2014 12:35 pm)

Thanks for your warm welcome,
I realize that I asked a lot of questions, I shall try to find the answers later.

The only theme I will explain now is the high amount of Jews, who were imprisoned by the Germans. In Germany, more then 50% of the Jews flew before the war, but that was not the case in the Netherlands. According to the figures, 75% disappears during the war. The highest rate, after Czech republic. Probably because of the modernst registration systems of inhabitants, which was a help for the germans, and also because Seyss-Inquart, and mainly Hanns Rauter were very determine to finish their job.

I did a lot of study, and I will continue to discover what happened with them, and if necessary, start a threat with one subject.

I have also some affinity with this subject. At the end of the war, not only Jews, but also Dutch men were forced to work. In The Hague, there was a big razia under the Dutch men. My grand father was forced to work in Rees, making trenches. Unfortunately, he died in 1945, due to dysenterie. That was the main cause of death in that camp.


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