Talking with believers

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hermod
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Re: Talking with believers

Postby hermod » 4 years 11 months ago (Tue Jul 22, 2014 7:57 pm)

Dutch beginner wrote:The only theme I will explain now is the high amount of Jews, who were imprisoned by the Germans. In Germany, more then 50% of the Jews flew before the war, but that was not the case in the Netherlands. According to the figures, 75% disappears during the war.


As the Jewish population in the Netherlands roughly doubled between the 1880s and the early 1940s, you can easily imagine that a large percentage of the Jews living in the Netherlands in 1940 had no good reason to prefer the Netherlands to America, Palestine and other pleasant countries as their post-war homes when they were given new living opportunities in 1945 & the following years. Especially true for the 43,000 Jews (around 28% of the Netherlands' Jews) who settled in the Netherlands between 1930 and 1940. Hadn't Anne Frank died of typhus at Belsen in Spring 1945, would she have decided to live in Amsterdam or in Hollywood or Tel Aviv after WW2?

1879: 81,693 Jews in the Netherlands
1941: 154,887 Jews in the Netherlands
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of ... th_century
"But, however the world pretends to divide itself, there are ony two divisions in the world to-day - human beings and Germans. – Rudyard Kipling, The Morning Post (London), June 22, 1915

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Re: Talking with believers

Postby borjastick » 4 years 11 months ago (Wed Jul 23, 2014 2:32 am)

Indeed hermod.

Take Otto Frank, father of Anne and perhaps one of the most well known Jewish Dutch persons.

Where did he go after the war?? Perhaps he sat back in the Netherlands, one of the most free and liberal societies in Europe and enjoyed the fame and comfort of his story. No he went to...Switzerland.

Life After Loss

Months later, Frank's former secretary, Miep Gies, found Anne's diary in the abandoned annex and gave it to Otto. In 1947, he had the journal published under the title The Diary of a Young Girl.

Frank remarried, to Fritzi Markovits, in 1953. The couple moved to Switzerland, where they would live out the remainder of their years together. Frank died in Basel, Switzerland, on August 19, 1980.


source:http://www.biography.com/people/otto-frank-21336243#the-holocaust
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Re: Talking with believers

Postby hermod » 4 years 11 months ago (Wed Jul 23, 2014 8:34 am)

borjastick wrote:Indeed hermod.

Take Otto Frank, father of Anne and perhaps one of the most well known Jewish Dutch persons.

Where did he go after the war?? Perhaps he sat back in the Netherlands, one of the most free and liberal societies in Europe and enjoyed the fame and comfort of his story. No he went to...Switzerland.


The Jews of the Netherlands had even more reasons to want to live out of the Netherlands after WW2 when you know Dutch National Socialists had been powerful and relatively numerous (the NSB had around 100,000 members) during WW2. Moreover, the Dutch government encouraged emigration after WW2 and 500,000 Dutch people (how many Jews among them?) left the country at that time.

Despite government-encouraged emigration after World War II, which prompted some 500,000 persons to leave the country, the Netherlands is today one of the world’s most densely populated countries.

https://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/to ... etherlands










"But, however the world pretends to divide itself, there are ony two divisions in the world to-day - human beings and Germans. – Rudyard Kipling, The Morning Post (London), June 22, 1915

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Re: Talking with believers

Postby Dutch beginner » 4 years 11 months ago (Wed Jul 23, 2014 1:01 pm)

Thanks Hermod, very interesting historical material!!

Till the mid 30' s, the NSB grew till 8% of voters. After that, the NSB became more radical and loses some sympathy. Also the opposition of churches, political party's and government grow and in 1937, 4,22% voted on the NSB. In March 1940, there were only 32.000 members, but during the war, that number grows to more then 100.000. About 25.000 Dutch men joined the waffen SS. They were called the black soldiers (de zwarte soldaten)

After the war, the most important leaders of the NSB, together with war crimminals, were executed. 154 get the death penalty, however, only 39 were really executed, Anton Mussert was among them. The first one who was executed was Max Blokzijl, he only made propaganda for the Nazis, but that was enough to execute him according to the Judge.

The Jews in the Netherlands, who did not survive the war (102.000), they are registered with name and date of birth in the Oorlogsgravenstichting (foundation for War graves) in the Hague.

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Re: Talking with believers

Postby Moderator » 4 years 11 months ago (Wed Jul 23, 2014 2:50 pm)

Dutch beginner:
I'll let his last topic (Jews in Holland) continue here for a bit, but after that you must start threads for each topic, or post to existing threads on a topic that you want to discuss. I explained that to you previously. Please read the guidelines again.
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Re: Talking with believers

Postby Hannover » 4 years 11 months ago (Wed Jul 23, 2014 3:33 pm)

Dutch beginner wrote:After the war, the most important leaders of the NSB, together with war crimminals, were executed. 154 get the death penalty, however, only 39 were really executed, Anton Mussert was among them. The first one who was executed was Max Blokzijl, he only made propaganda for the Nazis, but that was enough to execute him according to the Judge.

The Jews in the Netherlands, who did not survive the war (102.000), they are registered with name and date of birth in the Oorlogsgravenstichting (foundation for War graves) in the Hague.
Where are the verbatim court records for us to review concerning these NSB leaders and "war criminals"?
What were the specific charges against each of them?
What are the claimed causes of death for these alleged 102,000 Jews in the Netherlands?
If they're claimed to have been murdered what evidence has been submitted in support of these alleged murders?
Were all of these alleged 102,000 Jews Dutch citizens?
Thanks.

The 'holocaust' storyline is one of the most easily debunked narratives ever contrived. That is why those who question it are arrested and persecuted. That is why violent, racist, & privileged Jewish supremacists demand censorship.
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Re: Talking with believers

Postby Dutch beginner » 4 years 11 months ago (Wed Jul 23, 2014 4:03 pm)

@Hannover
I wil do some research and start a new thread about the death of 102.000 jews from the Netherlands.

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Re: Talking with believers

Postby Hektor » 4 years 11 months ago (Wed Jul 23, 2014 4:09 pm)

Jews and the Occupation of the Netherlands. Camp Westerbork comes to mind. It's openly admitted that this was a transit camp, but still innuendo monuments are erected there:
Image

Real photos from camp Westerbork in operation are rather sympathetic:
Image
Image
Image
I used this one as my avatar for a while:
Image
Benny Behr playing the violin to children in Westerbork. Benny died 1995 in Hilversum.

In that light one should also have a look at the concentration camps that were there from 1944 to 1948 for "foute Nederlanders":
https://archive.org/details/Kamptoestanden1944-45-48

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Re: Talking with believers

Postby hermod » 4 years 11 months ago (Wed Jul 23, 2014 5:13 pm)

Dutch beginner wrote:The Jews in the Netherlands, who did not survive the war (102.000), they are registered with name and date of birth in the Oorlogsgravenstichting (foundation for War graves) in the Hague.


It's said that: "Over 105,000 were deported, mainly to Auschwitz and Sobibor, and only several thousand survived and returned to the Netherlands" (http://www.dutchjewry.org/inmemoriam/in_memoriam.htm). Doesn't the premise "didn't return to the Netherlands = dead" sound like a fraud? According to their premise, no Dutch Jews, not even one, opted for other countries after WW2. Weren't there no Zionist Jews in the pre-war Netherlands? Were the Netherlands such a great country that recent immigrants couldn't even contemplate living elsewhere after WW2?
"But, however the world pretends to divide itself, there are ony two divisions in the world to-day - human beings and Germans. – Rudyard Kipling, The Morning Post (London), June 22, 1915

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Re: Talking with believers

Postby akaspooky » 4 years 4 months ago (Sat Jan 24, 2015 1:39 pm)

hermod wrote:Welcome, Dutch beginner.
If you think that testimonies have any evidential value, you should logically also believe in witches, ghosts, alien abductions, trolls, elves, bigfoots, the Loch Ness Monster, Jesus' miracles, Marian apparitions, etc.

That's exactly the point Weintraub made when he showed that the religion of Judaism lists holocaust as doctrine. It is against my religion to believe in the doctrines of other faiths. It would be equal to forcing a Christian to believe that the Prophet Mohammed ascended, based upon the testimony of Islam's believers, or a Muslim being made to believe in the Deity of the Lord Jesus Christ simply because Christians say so. We are all free to dismiss the doctrines of other people's faith: My faith has been refuting Judaizers from day one.
And this new doctrine of theirs is no different, since it also is based upon what Judaism's people say. The trial of Irving brought that truth to light: "6.80 What is the evidence for mass extermination of Jews at those camps? The consequence of the absence of any overt documentary evidence of gas chambers at these camps, coupled with the lack of archeological evidence, means that reliance has to be placed on eye witness and circumstantial evidence" Islam's believers have eyewitnesses of the night flight, and Christianity's believers have eyewitnesses to Jesus' resurrection. These things are also part of history... should we pool our resources to buy legislation which mandates no denial thereof and calls heretical the believers of all other faiths? And... was that the plan all along? To make all other faiths illegal?


[I am brand new here, and only found this post (hopefully I have quoted the right author) by a simple search. And if this post of mine needs to be quarantined until the moderators read it, may I ask the moderators to think deeply about this small contribution. It is not my plan to evangelize, but is my hope that you will see what I am telling you, and share this simple message with all who are struggling.]

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Re: Talking with believers

Postby Moderator » 4 years 4 months ago (Sat Jan 24, 2015 2:07 pm)

Welcome, akaspooky.
Everyone is welcomed here as long they stay on topic. Please read the basic guidelines.
Thanks, M1
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Re: Talking with believers

Postby Hektor » 4 years 4 months ago (Sat Jan 24, 2015 4:43 pm)

hermod wrote:...
It's said that: "Over 105,000 were deported, mainly to Auschwitz and Sobibor, and only several thousand survived and returned to the Netherlands" (http://www.dutchjewry.org/inmemoriam/in_memoriam.htm). Doesn't the premise "didn't return to the Netherlands = dead" sound like a fraud? According to their premise, no Dutch Jews, not even one, opted for other countries after WW2. Weren't there no Zionist Jews in the pre-war Netherlands? Were the Netherlands such a great country that recent immigrants couldn't even contemplate living elsewhere after WW2?

It even gets better "Wasn't registered to have returned to the Netherlands = dead" - How eager would they've been to register anyway. A peek at the Jewish figures at present may also be interesting. It does seem many have returned without anyone even noticing.

@moderator, I think akaspooky is right on track. Specific belief systems have specific tenets in what they belief. They differ among each other quite often. Now why mandate one belief system (Holocaustianity) to have special protection for their tenets and the right to persecute non-believers?

This alone should be enough for bright, reasonable people to have doubts about the historicity of the present Holocaust narrative.

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Re: Talking with believers

Postby fountainhead » 4 years 4 months ago (Sat Jan 24, 2015 4:56 pm)

I know what you mean, Haldan. I've only told two people about my revisionist views. One of them thought I was crazy right off the bat, though I didn't have time to explain much of anything to him. He later simply cited Elie Wiesel as a "primary source". Even my other friend, who is more open to conspiracy theories (even though I think Holocaust revisionism is the opposite of a conspiracy theory), is pretty much a lost cause in spite of his being more open-minded. It's just not clicking in his brain no matter how much evidence I give him. In his mind, all the references to obscure revisionist research and to logic and reason are nothing compared to what he perceives as the thousands of "eyewitnesses" who can't all be lying.

So if I can't even manage to convince a reasonable, open-minded guy who is also a dear, close friend of mine, we sure have a lot of work ahead of us convincing the more hardened and hostile true believers out there.
Last edited by fountainhead on Sat Jan 24, 2015 5:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Talking with believers

Postby Lohengrin » 4 years 4 months ago (Sat Jan 24, 2015 5:00 pm)

Hello, Dutch beginner,

As a Dutch revisionist too, I would say that ALL of your questions are thoroughly answered IN DUTCH language in the revisionist book "Holocaust Herzien" written by a one Jurgen H. Breedeveld. You can find al your answers also on the Internet site http://www.Frissekijk.info .
There you can see (with facts) that of the 100.000 out of Holland deported jews, ca. 30.000 were originally not from Holland at all, but from Germany, Poland, Tsjechoslovakia, etc. You can also see, that tens of thousands of them from Sobibor, Auschwitz, etc. were further transported into German occupied Soviet territory, of which never since anything was heard.
Note please also the fate of the 602 in very good health deported men from the village of Putten, to labor camps in West Germany, of whom only 42 (7%) after no more than 7 months (!!) until the liberation returned alive! I think the same fate hitted your relative, who died in Rees, a German place only a few kilometers from the Dutch border.
No "gas chambers" were needed at all for this terrible starvation of people in a terrible War, whether it were Dutchmen, German or Jews.

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Re: Talking with believers

Postby Dutch beginner » 4 years 4 months ago (Sat Jan 24, 2015 5:49 pm)

Hi Lohengrin,
It was a long time ago, I react on this forum. And while I was serving on the internet, I take a look on this forum, which I do sometimes. And I was surprised that after a half year, there were some new comments in this thread.

In the last weeks, in the Netherlandse we heard again a lot about the destruction camps and the gass chambers. Nobody want to discuss about the facts, that there is no proof that gas chambers exist in Auschwitz or in Madjanek. Also, nobody knows that the gas chambers in the camps in german are debunked a long time ago, while in the 1950 and 1960, everybody believed in them, but it where reconstructions from Russians and Americans . I think it will take some genarations before some historicians dare to touchs this subject in the Netherlands. Revisionists are demonized here and labeled as antisemitical (well, I always have very much respect for jews and have sympathy for them).

I do not have a political reason for this subject, I am not an anti zionist, I am not Jew, the only thing I am interested in is the truth. I think it is dangerous to make historical lies. That is not fair to the people involved which has to live with a huge burgain (although they are no nazies), and it will create new wars.

In this thread, and also in another thread (Missed Dutch jews was the subject title I believe), I reviewed some possibilities for the large number of Jews, which are died in those camps.

After a half year, I read more about this subject. I read David Cole's book. He has some good arguments that may be not 6 million Jews, but a great number were killed. An important source is the Korherr report and a piece of tekst in the diary from Goebels. The text is vague, and it is only circumstantial evidence. But I was impressed anywhay. Cole thinks that Sobibor and Treblinca where indeed extermination camps, but after some critics and questions he admitted in fora that there is no proof for that claim, but he responded that holocaust deniers do not have a proof either that millions of jews were deported to Russia (instead of only several thousands), and I agree that this is a week spot of deniers. Cole thinks that we may build a case for the theory of Treblinca and Sobibor as extermination camps.

My opinion now is that Eisenhower and the Russians want to demonize the german, because of the de-nazification process, and therefore they constructed evidence for the holocaust version, we now hear on tv, so much. Because they do that, and because no scientist dare to investigate alternatives, it is probably not possible anymore to get the truth. But that does not mean that the nazies do not killed a high amount of Jews, besides the Jews killed (also innocent Jews) bacause of the partizan war.

So I am still not convinced that Jews were not killed on a large scale. but I also must admit that I do not know what happened. May be the truth is waiting in Russian archives what realy happend? I hope that the leaders kept the truth for future generations. I am afraid they don't.

But back to the subject.

I am also convinced that, regardless the fact that everywhere on internet you can find so much scientific evidence, debunking the current holocaust version, I will not see in my life time that this will be spoken in the main stream media. If you dare to talk about it, with friends, they look to you if you talks about a conspirency theory. But If you tell them about scientific evidence, e.g. Germer Rudolf, they begin to doubt, but they change the subject.

It was a taboo, and it wil remain so, for a long time, I am afraid. And I think, that is not good.


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