Where did they go? Killed?

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Where did they go? Killed?

Postby roberto » 1 decade 5 years ago (Fri May 14, 2004 2:40 pm)

Excerpt from John C. Zimmerman, Holocaust Denial, page 3

Poland’s Demographics

The number of Jews counted in the Polish census of 1931 was 3,113,900. Estimates of the Jewish population in 1939, the year Poland was invaded by Germany and the Soviet Union, place the population between 3.3 and 3.5 million. In The Dissolution of Eastern European Jewry (hereafter cited in the text) Walter Sanning tried to depopulate Poland of its Jews so that few would come under Nazi control. He placed the actual number of Jews in Poland at the war’s outbreak in 1939 at 2,664,000 (p. 32).

He did this by citing a statement in a publication by Munich’s Institute of Contemporary History that in the years following 1933 about 100,000 Jews annually emigrated from Poland. The Institute gives no source for this assertion. In fact, this is the only mention of Polish emigration in the article. The article deals mostly with German-Jewish emigration. Moreover, the article does not state to which countries these Jews emigrated from Poland whereas it gives such a discussion for German emigrants. The purpose of the article, as is clear from the title, is to deal with German emigration.

[Footnote: Hermann Graml, “Die Auswanderung Der Juden aus Deutschland Zwischen 1933 und 1939” [The Emigration of Jews from Germany Between 1933 and 1939], Gutachten des Instituts für Zeitgeschichte (Munich, 1958), 79-85. The article only lists two sources in its bibliography. One of the sources is Mark Wischnitzer’s Die Juden in der Welt [The Jews in the World] (Berlin:1935). However, Wischnitzer’s figures on Polish-Jewish emigration deal with the period from 1921 and do not support the Institute’s figures. Die Juden in der Welt, 204-207, 212-215. Wischnitzer had used the official numbers when discussing Polish-Jewish emigration. (Source cited in note 5 herein.) It is possible that Herman Graml, the author of the Institute’s article, misunderstood Wischnitzer’s data.]

The official Polish figures for the years 1931-1937 place total Jewish emigration at 109,716. These figures were published in 1940, before the Holocaust, so that Sanning could not claim they were “politically motivated”. The figures also gave a breakdown as to which countries the Polish Jews immigrated. A Jewish emigration of the size claimed by the Institute would surely have been noticed. However, there is no mention of such a large scale emigration in any of the studies dealing with Polish Jews in the inter war years from 1919-1939. When figures are cited, the official ones are used. A study of minorities in Poland during the inter war years also cites the official Polish emigration figures. It is probable that few, if any, are even familiar with the Institute’s numbers.

Sanning did not take into consideration that there were simply not enough outlets for a Jewish emigration of the size claimed. Most Polish-Jewish emigration from 1931 onwards was to Palestine. However, there were severe restrictions on immigration to Palestine and Polish Jews had to compete against other Jews. Moreover, within the Polish-Jewish Community there was a concerted effort to discourage Jewish emigration by such diverse groups as Jewish Bundists, assimilationists and even Zionists.

Faced with an overwhelming amount of evidence that the Polish-Jewish emigration of 100,000 annually could not have taken place, most scholars would probably relegate the Institute’s statement to a footnote. At the very least, any serious writer who wanted to use such a number would ask the Institute how it obtained its figures and where these alleged emigrants went. It is obvious that Sanning never did this. However, this writer did make such an inquiry of the Institute. The Institute’s reply failed to shed any light on its figures.

[Footnote: I wrote to the Institute on April 18, 1996 citing the official statistics. I asked how the Institute arrived at the 100,000 annual number and where these Jews immigrated to. In the reply of May 22, 1996 I was only referred to the article, which the Institute sent me. However, as noted above, the article does not address these issues.]

This would not be the first time that Sanning seized at a number, no matter how tenuous, and used it as authority while ignoring all contrary evidence. He would usually justify his source by stating that they were “Zionist” or “Jewish”. He incorrectly called the Institute “pro-Zionist” (p. 32) and state that its figures were right while the official figures are subject to doubt. However, Sanning could not trace these emigrants to any country. He simply said they went to Palestine, the United States, South America and Western European countries without providing any details. The official figures trace the destinations as well as departures.[…]


Let us now assume that, contrary to what becomes apparent from Zimmerman’s analysis, most Polish Jews left the country before or during the Nazi occupation (evidence in this direction, if existing, would be of interest).

Where would the bulk of those 3.3 to 3.5 million Polish Jews, or their descendants, be found now?

Let us have a look at the possible destinations.

Israel

[...]Population:
6,116,533 (July 2002 est.)
note: includes about 187,000 Israeli settlers in the West Bank, about 20,000 in the Israeli-occupied Golan Heights, more than 5,000 in the Gaza Strip, and fewer than 177,000 in East Jerusalem (February 2003 est.) (July 2003 est.)

[...]

Ethnic groups:
Jewish 80.1% (Europe/America-born 32.1%, Israel-born 20.8%, Africa-born 14.6%, Asia-born 12.6%), non-Jewish 19.9% (mostly Arab) (1996 est.)[...]


http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/fac ... os/is.html

Belarus

[...]Population:
10,322,151 (July 2003 est.)

[...]

Ethnic groups:
Belarusian 81.2%, Russian 11.4%, Polish, Ukrainian, and other 7.4%[...]


http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/fac ... os/bo.html


Ukraine

Population:
48,055,439 (July 2003 est.)

[...]

Ethnic groups:
Ukrainian 77.8%, Russian 17.3%, Belarusian 0.6%, Moldovan 0.5%, Crimean Tatar 0.5%, Bulgarian 0.4%, Hungarian 0.3%, Romanian 0.3%, Polish 0.3%, Jewish 0.2%, other 1.8% (2001)[...]


http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/fac ... os/up.html


Russia

[...]Population:
144,526,278 (July 2003 est.)

[...]

Ethnic groups:
Russian 81.5%, Tatar 3.8%, Ukrainian 3%, Chuvash 1.2%, Bashkir 0.9%, Belarusian 0.8%, Moldavian 0.7%, other 8.1% (1989)[...]


http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/fac ... os/rs.html


United States

[...]Population:
290,342,554 (July 2003 est.)

[...]

Ethnic groups:
white 77.1%, black 12.9%, Asian 4.2%, Amerindian and Alaska native 1.5%, native Hawaiian and other Pacific islander 0.3%, other 4% (2000)
note: a separate listing for Hispanic is not included because the US Census Bureau considers Hispanic to mean a person of Latin American descent (including persons of Cuban, Mexican, or Puerto Rican origin) living in the US who may be of any race or ethnic group (white, black, Asian, etc.)

Religions:
Protestant 56%, Roman Catholic 28%, Jewish 2%, other 4%, none 10% (1989)[...]


http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/fac ... os/us.html


Let’s also look at other former Soviet republics, which according to the last census data available to Himmler’s statistician Richard Korherr had a Jewish population of 2,570,330 in 1926.

Latvia

[...]Population:
2,348,784 (July 2003 est.)

[...]

Ethnic groups:
Latvian 57.7%, Russian 29.6%, Belarusian 4.1%, Ukrainian 2.7%, Polish 2.5%, Lithuanian 1.4%, other 2%[...]


http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/fac ... os/lg.html


Lituania

[...] Population:
3,592,561 (July 2003 est.)

[...]

Ethnic groups:
Lithuanian 80.6%, Russian 8.7%, Polish 7%, Belarusian 1.6%, other 2.1%[...]


http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/fac ... os/lh.html


Estonia

[...]Population:
1,408,556 (July 2003 est.)

[...]

Ethnic groups:
Estonian 65.3%, Russian 28.1%, Ukrainian 2.5%, Belarusian 1.5%, Finn 1%, other 1.6% (1998)[...]


http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/fac ... os/en.html


Armenia

[...]Population:
3,326,448
note: Armenia's first census since independence was conducted in October 2001; official results are not expected until late 2003 (July 2003 est.)

[...]

Ethnic groups:
Armenian 93%, Azeri 1%, Russian 2%, other (mostly Yezidi Kurds) 4% (2002)
note: as of the end of 1993, virtually all Azeris had emigrated from Armenia.[...]


http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/fac ... os/am.html


Azerbaijan

[...] Population:
7,830,764 (July 2003 est.)

[...]

Ethnic groups:
Azeri 90%, Dagestani 3.2%, Russian 2.5%, Armenian 2%, other 2.3% (1998 est.)
note: almost all Armenians live in the separatist Nagorno-Karabakh region[...]


http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/fac ... os/aj.html


Georgia

[...]Population:
4,934,413 (July 2003 est.)

[...]

Ethnic groups:
Georgian 70.1%, Armenian 8.1%, Russian 6.3%, Azeri 5.7%, Ossetian 3%, Abkhaz 1.8%, other 5%[...]


http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/fac ... os/gg.html


Kazakhstan

[...]Population:
16,763,795 (July 2003 est.)

[...]

Ethnic groups:
Kazakh (Qazaq) 53.4%, Russian 30%, Ukrainian 3.7%, Uzbek 2.5%, German 2.4%, Uighur 1.4%, other 6.6% (1999 census)[...]


http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/fac ... os/kz.html


Kyrgyzstan

[...] Population:
4,892,808 (July 2003 est.)

[...]

Ethnic groups:
Kyrgyz 52.4%, Russian 18%, Uzbek 12.9%, Ukrainian 2.5%, German 2.4%, other 11.8%[...]


http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/fac ... os/kg.html


Tajikistan

[...]Population:
6,863,752 (July 2003 est.)

[...]

Ethnic groups:
Tajik 64.9%, Uzbek 25%, Russian 3.5% (declining because of emigration), other 6.6%[...]


http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/fac ... os/ti.html


Turkmenistan

[...] Population:
4,775,544 (July 2003 est.)

[...]

Ethnic groups:
Turkmen 77%, Uzbek 9.2%, Russian 6.7%, Kazakh 2%, other 5.1% (1995)[...]


http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/fac ... os/tx.html


Uzbekistan

[...]Population:
25,981,647 (July 2003 est.)

[...]

Ethnic groups:
Uzbek 80%, Russian 5.5%, Tajik 5%, Kazakh 3%, Karakalpak 2.5%, Tatar 1.5%, other 2.5% (1996 est.)[...]


http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/fac ... os/uz.html


Have I forgotten any former Soviet republic? If so, please let me know.

Now let’s look at some classic immigration countries other than the US, by alphabetical order.

Argentina

[...]Population:
38,740,807 (July 2003 est.)

[...]

Ethnic groups:
white (mostly Spanish and Italian) 97%, mestizo, Amerindian, or other nonwhite groups 3%
Religions:
nominally Roman Catholic 92% (less than 20% practicing), Protestant 2%, Jewish 2%, other 4%[...]


http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/fac ... os/ar.html


Australia

[...] Population:
19,731,984 (July 2003 est.)

[...]

Ethnic groups:
Caucasian 92%, Asian 7%, aboriginal and other 1%
Religions:
Anglican 26.1%, Roman Catholic 26%, other Christian 24.3%, non-Christian 11%, other 12.6%[...]


http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/fac ... os/as.html


Brazil

[...]Population:
182,032,604
note: Brazil took a count in August 2000, which reported a population of 169,799,170; that figure was about 3.3% lower than projections by the US Census Bureau, and is close to the implied underenumeration of 4.6% for the 1991 census; estimates for this country explicitly take into account the effects of excess mortality due to AIDS; this can result in lower life expectancy, higher infant mortality and death rates, lower population and growth rates, and changes in the distribution of population by age and sex than would otherwise be expected (July 2003 est.)

[...]

Ethnic groups:
white (includes Portuguese, German, Italian, Spanish, Polish) 55%, mixed white and black 38%, black 6%, other (includes Japanese, Arab, Amerindian) 1%
Religions:
Roman Catholic (nominal) 80%[...]


http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/fac ... os/br.html


Canada

[...]Population:
32,207,113 (July 2003 est.)

[...]

Ethnic groups:
British Isles origin 28%, French origin 23%, other European 15%, Amerindian 2%, other, mostly Asian, African, Arab 6%, mixed background 26%
Religions:
Roman Catholic 46%, Protestant 36%, other 18%
note: based on the 1991 census[...]


http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/fac ... os/ca.html


Chile

[...]Population:
15,665,216 (July 2003 est.)

[...]

Ethnic groups:
white and white-Amerindian 95%, Amerindian 3%, other 2%
Religions:
Roman Catholic 89%, Protestant 11%, Jewish NEGL%[...]


http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/fac ... os/ci.html


South Africa

[...]Population:
42,768,678
note: South Africa took a census October 1996 that showed a population of 40,583,611 (after an official adjustment for a 6.8% underenumeration based on a postenumeration survey); estimates for this country explicitly take into account the effects of excess mortality due to AIDS; this can result in lower life expectancy, higher infant mortality and death rates, lower population and growth rates, and changes in the distribution of population by age and sex than would otherwise be expected (July 2003 est.)

[...]

Ethnic groups:
black 75.2%, white 13.6%, Colored 8.6%, Indian 2.6%
Religions:
Christian 68% (includes most whites and Coloreds, about 60% of blacks and about 40% of Indians), Muslim 2%, Hindu 1.5% (60% of Indians), indigenous beliefs and animist 28.5%.[...]


http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/fac ... os/sf.html


Venezuela

[...]Population:
24,654,694 (July 2003 est.)

[...]

Ethnic groups:
Spanish, Italian, Portuguese, Arab, German, African, indigenous people
Religions:
nominally Roman Catholic 96%, Protestant 2%, other 2%[...]


http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/fac ... os/ve.html


Last but not least, let’s have a look at the development of the Jewish population of the United States, which stood at 4,228,029 in 1927 already:

Jewish Population of the United States
(1654-2001)

Estimated Jewish Population
1654 25
1700 200-300
1776 1,000-2,500
1790 1,243-3,000
1800 2,000-2,500
1820 2,650-5,000
1826 6,000
1830 4,000-6,000
1840 15,000
1848 50,000
1850 50,000-100,000
1860 150,000-200,000
1870 200,000
1880 230,000-280,000
1890 400,000-475,000
1900 937,800-1,058,135
1910 1,508,000-2,349,754
1920 3,300,000-3,604,580
1927 4,228,029
1937 4,641,000-4,831,180
1940 4,770,000-4,975,000
1950 4,500,000-5,000,000
1960 5,367,000-5,531,500
1970 5,370,000-6,000,000
1980 5,500,000-5,920,890
1992 5,828,000
2000 6,136,000*
2001 6,155,000**


http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/US-Isr ... wpop1.html

So, where do we locate the expectable results of the supposed emigration of more than 3 million Polish Jews, plus at least as many Jews from the Soviet Union (considering natural population growth since 1926) within its borders as of 1 September 1939?

Ideas are welcome.

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Postby Haldan » 1 decade 5 years ago (Fri May 14, 2004 4:00 pm)

My own personal thought is that they spread all across the world, but mainly to England and USA. That is ofcourse only my own thoughts.

Does anyone know what the population of Israel is?
<?php if ($Holocaust == false ) {deny_repeatedly(); } else { investigate(); } ?>
Homage to Catalin Haldan

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 5 years ago (Fri May 14, 2004 4:23 pm)

The population of 'Israel' is 6.5 million. What was it in, say, 1940? ...which would have been called Palestine.

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If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Postby Sailor » 1 decade 5 years ago (Fri May 14, 2004 5:36 pm)

Roberto wrote: Latvia
[...]Population:
2,348,784 (July 2003 est.)

[...]

Ethnic groups:
Latvian 57.7%, Russian 29.6%, Belarusian 4.1%, Ukrainian 2.7%, Polish 2.5%, Lithuanian 1.4%, other 2%[...]

http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/fac ... os/lg.html

One gets a little scared to talk to an anti-"Revisionist" because of the threat of a possible law suit.

I am right now studying the Latvian situation during WWII and shortly before and after. I am using as a source Andrew Ezergailis "The Holocaust in Latvia".

The reason for my interest in Latvia is simply because many anti-"Revisionists" use the losses of Jews as proof that Hitler was aware of the Jewish genocide.

The population changes in Latvia have a rather peculiar characteristic, which may also be indicative for the rest of the Balcans as well as Poland.

But to tell you the truth, Roberto, I better shut up.

fge

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Postby roberto » 1 decade 5 years ago (Fri May 14, 2004 5:43 pm)

I provided detailed parameters and would like to see equally detailed and substantiated calculations, not unsubstantiated wild guesses, which furthermore ignore the statistical information I posted (of Israel’s present-day population of 6,116,533, only 32.1 % are Europe/America-born Jews; the US Jewish population, currently at 6,155,000, had been between 4,770,000-4,975,000 in 1940 already and showed no significant increase from then until 1950).

You will have to do better. You have 6 to 6.5 million Jews from Poland and the Soviet Union to locate around the globe.

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Postby roberto » 1 decade 5 years ago (Fri May 14, 2004 5:49 pm)

Sailor wrote:One gets a little scared to talk to an anti-"Revisionist" because of the threat of a possible law suit.


As far as I'm concerned you wouldn’t have to worry even if the country where you live applied hate speech laws, for as you know I'm against such laws.

Please keep us informed about your assessment of Ezergailis’ book.

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 5 years ago (Fri May 14, 2004 10:17 pm)

Here are just a few revealing points:

- The 1931 Jewish population census for Poland put the number of Jews at 2,732,600 (Reitlinger, Die Endlösung, p. 36). Reitlinger states that at least 1,170,000 of these were in the Russian zone occupied in the autumn of 1939, about a million of whom were evacuated to the Urals and south Siberia after the German invasion of June 1941 (ibid. p. 50)

- Jew, Max Frankel was with the New York Times from the early 1950s to 1994, eventually becoming its Executive Editor. From: The Times of My Life. And my Life with The Times. Random House, New York, 1999:
"Except for my place of birth, I was a Galicianer, dammit, an Eastern Jew just one generation out of the shtetl.....Millions of survivors from the area mentioned above ended up in America and Israel. Surely not all emigrated and there must still be a remant left behind in Europe. The question is continually being asked, where did the Polish Jews go? It would appear the majority went to America and Israel.


"The Jews were deported by the Germans to the area under Soviet control on the other side of the San river. ... In the summer of 1940 many of them were deported to the Soviet interior."

Encyclopaedia Judaica Vol. II, p.184, on Poland.


As early as February 1940, German intelligence had reported the systematic deportation of the Polish, Ukrainian and Jewish population from the western Ukraine

(13- Aschenauer, Rudolf. Krieg ohne Grenzen, Leoni, 1982, p. 115.)


In Colliers magazine, June 9th, 1945, Freiling Foster, writing of the Jews in Russia, explained that:
"2,200,000 have migrated to the Soviet Union since 1939

Jews went where Jews are. And given that there is no evidence for the alleged '6,000,000' the whole argument falls upon itself and is rather pointless.

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Postby Sailor » 1 decade 5 years ago (Fri May 14, 2004 11:46 pm)

Roberto wrote: As far as I'm concerned you wouldn’t have to worry even if the country where you live applied hate speech laws, for as you know I'm against such laws.

I already have contacted my lawyer and also our local police department. The latter is for the police to know where to start looking in case that I am physically attacked in any form.

Are you trying to wash your hands, Roberto?

Concerning Ezergailis book. I have not finished reading it. But:
-Ezergailis rejects all forms of revisionism and stands with the judgment of Nuremberg.
-And his book was published jointly with the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum.

This puts a warning flag up in my mind: Is the man in a position to give an unbiased account about the happenings in Latvia?

About the number of Jews in Latvia:

On page 58 of the book is an interesting table: Jews in Latvia, listing from 1897 to 1989 the estimated number of Jews who lived in Latvia in the various years.

1939 86,422 Jews
1940 (July) 66,000 estimated number of Jews trapped in Latvia when the Germans arrived.
1943 12,964 Jews
1959 36,600 Jews

What I don't understand is the stiff Jewish population increase by about 200% within 15 years, from 1943 to 1959. How did that happen? The only explanation I have for this increase is that these are returnees and survivors from the Soviet Union.

The death rate in the Soviet Union was quite high. Of the German Stalingrad POW's 94% perished. Later German POW's experienced a death rate of 70% if I remember correctly. Now it is my understanding, that these people were not gassed or shot by the Soviets, but perished from the harsh environment in that country, malnutrition, hard labor and deseases.

If a similar death rate could be assumed for the Latvian Jews who were deported or fled to the Soviet Union, then the estimated 66,000 Jews trapped in Latvia when the Germans arrived is way too high and must be considerably lower.

Interesting about the situation in East Poland is a book by Bogdan Musial: »Konterrevolutionäre Elemente sind zu erschießen.« Die Brutalisierung des deutsch-sowjetischen Krieges im Sommer 1941.
(“Counter Revolutionary Elements are to be Shot” The Brutalization of the German-Soviet War in the Summer 1941.)

Here Musial, who is not a Holocaust denier by any means, attempted to find out what happened in East Poland during the Soviet occupation, the Jews who fled with the Soviets and the pronoms in that country after the Russians retreated and before the Germans arrived.

I do not have a copy of this book, I only read the review.

fge

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Postby J William » 1 decade 5 years ago (Sat May 15, 2004 11:27 am)

In the late 1970s and early 1980s there was a huge outcry about anti-semitism in the then Soviet Union. The estimates of remaining Jews in the USSR at that time was approximately 500,000 Jews left. Unmistakable evidence of anti-semitism, right? After openning up emmigration from the USSR it appears that, so far, in excess of 1.5 millon Jews have emigrated from the former USSR. Let's reverse the question, "where did they go?' into the logical "Where did they come from?"

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Postby ClaudiaRothenbach » 1 decade 5 years ago (Sat May 15, 2004 1:58 pm)

roberto wrote:of Israel’s present-day population of 6,116,533, only 32.1 % are Europe/America-born Jews


Sanning showed that most of the Polish and SU-Jews flew or were deported to the eastern parts of the SU when the Germans attacked. During the last 15 years minimum 1,5 million jews emigrated from Russia to Israel and the stream is not running dry.

Rassinier found that nearly a million jews came to Isreal via north african and middle east countries (in: Das Drama der Juden Europas). These people are not in your 32,1% but originate from Europe.

Another point: Roberto wrote that Sanning overestimated the number of Polish jews that left Poland in the 1930s by 300.000 or 400.000. This figure adds up to 600.000 jews killed by the Germans with the 300.000 calculated by Sanning. Where are the 5,4 Million you need for the 6M figure?

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Postby kk » 1 decade 5 years ago (Sat May 15, 2004 11:15 pm)

Where did the other 4m jews come from ?
(67.9 % x 6.116.533)

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Postby roberto » 1 decade 5 years ago (Mon May 17, 2004 5:13 am)

kk wrote:Where did the other 4m jews come from ?
(67.9 % x 6.116.533)


Israel

The CIA World Factbook writes:

[...]Population:
6,116,533 (July 2002 est.)
note: includes about 187,000 Israeli settlers in the West Bank, about 20,000 in the Israeli-occupied Golan Heights, more than 5,000 in the Gaza Strip, and fewer than 177,000 in East Jerusalem (February 2003 est.) (July 2003 est.)

[...]

Ethnic groups:
Jewish 80.1% (Europe/America-born 32.1%, Israel-born 20.8%, Africa-born 14.6%, Asia-born 12.6%), non-Jewish 19.9% (mostly Arab) (1996 est.)[...]


http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/fac ... os/is.html

I have translated the above information into the following tables of figures:

Total Population; Thereof; Designation; Percentage

6.116.533; 4.899.343; Jews; 80,10%
; 1.217.190; Non-Jews; 19,90%

Total Jewish Population; Thereof; Designation; Percentage

4.899.343; 1.963.407; Europe/America-born; 32,10%
; 1.272.239; Israel-born; 20,80%
; 893.014; Africa-born; 14,60%
; 770.683; Asia-born; 12,60%
; 4.899.343; ; 80,10%

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Postby Juan » 1 decade 5 years ago (Fri Jun 18, 2004 6:32 pm)

Hola Roberto,

Please do the complete math and calculate emigrations for me. All this data you put there doesn't answer anything at all. Sanning put aprox. 600-700 thousand jewish casualties and missing people under german control, they could have died or not; they could have been killed or not; they could have been killed by germans or not and finally they could have been killed by germans as innocent civilians, and even that doesn't prove they had been killed because of a "plan". That doesn't sum up to a "Holocaust" whatsoever.

Cheers,

Juan

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Postby Fugazi » 1 decade 5 years ago (Sat Jun 19, 2004 5:34 am)

Trying to answer the question "Where did they go?" is useful in terms of studying history, but doesn't tell us anything useful about the "Holocaust", as Juan points out.

As an example of what I mean, we could ask "Where did the Germans go?". According to James Bacque, the govt of the Bundesrepublik arrived at a figure of 1.4 million German soldiers who entered allied captivity and simply never came back. The number of civilians that disappeared during the Vertreibung from the eastern territories seems a lot harder to calculate, but estimates vary between 1.5 and 3.5 million (which should also count as a warning about trying to use population demographics to work this stuff out - I'd be a lot more confident about German census figures describing Germans than about Polish or Soviet census figures describing Jews without defining them).

So we have somewhere between 2.9 and 4.9 missing Germans in the years following WW2. Does that mean the Allies had a policy of genocide against Germans? That they must have killed Germans en masse in gas chambers or shot them and thrown the bodies in mass graves? Well, so far, no-one's tried to advance that claim ahead of the far more plausible one that some of these people were murdered outright, but most died of disease, cold, exhaustion and starvation due to the conditions under which they were deported, imprisoned, or used as slave labour.

Given that there were massive population movements within and from eastern Europe following WW2, often illegal and using forged papers, it's a lot harder to figure out what happened to the missing Poles than the missing Germans. But given that Poland was subject to invasions by two different totalitarian regimes between 1939 and 1945 (twice by the Soviet Union, at that), both of which were fond of forced deportations and slave labour, it wouldn't surprise me if turned out that millions died. After all, the allies managed to kill millions of Germans this way in peacetime, and the Poles went missing during a particularly brutal and desperate war.

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 5 years ago (Sat Jun 19, 2004 12:02 pm)

Fugazi:

I think you'll find documentation of verifiable mass graves aplenty for Germans and other anti-communist resistance in 'Stalin's War of Extermination', by J. Hoffmann. However, you will find nothing of the sort to support allegations by Jews of mass graves containing 'millions'. IMO the entire matter essentially comes down to forensics/physical evidence. 'Millions' of people cannot be killed without massive physical evidence and human remains. Not even the Germans, as smart as they are, possess magical powers.

The 'where did they go' argument is a canard. As shown in previous posts, there is no evidence that the numbers alleged were ever under German control; what with Soviet deportations of massive amounts of Jews to the interior, emigration to other countries, the classic problem of defining a Jew for census purposes, and the questionable accuracy of the the various censuses involved.

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.


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