Where did they go? Killed?

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Postby bridgebuilder » 1 decade 3 years ago (Sat Apr 01, 2006 6:10 pm)

Again and again we read material assumimg that if there really is a dip in the number of Polish Jews from 1939-45 then the only possible explanation is that the Germans killed them. The revisionist response (at least as evidenced in this thread) is to argue that the figures are wonky and that the missing Jews emigrated to safety elsewhere.

As I have pointed out in a previous thread, however, half of Poland passed into the hands of the greatest mass-murderer in the history of the human race up to 1945, Josef Stalin. (Post 1945, Mao Tse Tung took the crown.) And even orthodox historians acknowledge that before his death, Stalin planned to exterminate the Jews of the Soviet Union, the precipitating cause of which was to be the trumped up "doctors' plot". This last and greatest pogom, however, was stymied by Stalin's encounter with the angel of death.

It therefore has to be at least credible that any large numbers of missing Jews were eliminated (that is, murdered, rather than deported to camps, as the Germans did) by the Soviet government. Doubters should reflect upon Katyn. And Katyn proves that those who sat in judgement over the Germans at Nuremberg were mass murderers. What more likely scenario than that judges whose countries have committed mass-murder will try to blame others? If this turns out to be correct, then of course, the missing Jews were murdered by the Allies - that is, by us - and not by the Germans.

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Postby Richard Perle » 1 decade 3 years ago (Sat Apr 01, 2006 7:38 pm)

It seems likely to me that any male Jews under Russian influence would have been made to fight in the Red Army.

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Postby bridgebuilder » 1 decade 3 years ago (Sun Apr 02, 2006 12:31 am)

Two points on this:

First, Stalin's thinking is never easy to understand. Theoughout the War, the labour camps were still populated by millions of prisoners being slowly worked to death. One thinks that had they been put into uniform and given guns they might have been made better use of in the Red Army, but there is the Volkov Army precedent, where Russians in their hundreds of thousands fought their communist oppressors when given the chance by their German liberators. How Stalin might have reacted to a proposal that millions of Jews (who passed into Communist rule without benefit of 20 years of Komsomol training and a vigilant secret police apparatus) should be armed, no one knows. Surely it would far easier to kill the lot and then blame it on the Germans than risk arming an un-Sovietized population. Stalin himself, in the most mysterious revolution of the twentieth century had only just (in the period 1935-7) seized control of the Soviet Union from the Jewish Bolshevik legatees of the October Revolution by which the Jews had seized power. After 1937, the Soviet Union still had prominent Jewish functionaries, but there was no doubt that Stalin was in control.

Secondly, it is possible that any missing Jews whose deaths are attributed to the Germans in the period 1943-45 might in fact have been killed post 1945 in the charnel house that was the Soviet Union. If Stalin's intention was to kill them in due course, then it would have been rather foolish to send then to the front, where inevitably some would escape and report on the numbers of captive Jews held in camps from 1939-41 before German troops crossed the Bug.

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 3 years ago (Sun Apr 02, 2006 1:48 am)

bridgebuilder,
We've been down this road about Stalin, I refer our readers to:

'Jewish deaths under Stalin'
http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=2616

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Postby bridgebuilder » 1 decade 3 years ago (Sun Apr 02, 2006 3:09 am)

Indeed we have, Hannover, but nothing much came of it. All I am doing is pointing out again that there is a totally uninvestigated ALTERNATIVE to the two theses:

1. (Jewish) The Germans murdered X million Polish Jews
2. (Revisionist) No they didn't; the missing X million Jews can be accounted for.

The unconsidered alternative is simply that if there really are X million missing Polish Jews, then they lived on territory ruled for several years by a known mass-murderer (indeed, the world's very best) whom we know had a plan to organise a pogrom and murder all Jews under his control. It is obviously a thesis not to be dismissed, that he did the planned murder anyway and then successfully shifted the blame to the Germans when, as at Nuremberg, he had them at his tender mercy.

The only question that really matters here is what happened to the Polish Jews who came under Soviet control following the partition of Poland. The lack of documentary evidence is the most suspicious aspect of the whole business. If Stalin had fought a close-run, but successful war in 1935-37 against Jewish Bolsheviks (as he did) then one can hardly see him as welcoming the influx of a few more million Jews following the Nazi-Soviet pact.

I suppose all I trying to stress is that the two theses listed as 1 and 2 above do not exhaust the matter and that there is an alternative revisionist thesis (my own) that ought to be considered too. No revisionist should think that the only way to meet the claim that X million Jews are missing is to deny that they are missing. There are alternatives and they might even be true.

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 3 years ago (Sun Apr 02, 2006 10:52 pm)

the two theses:

1. (Jewish) The Germans murdered X million Polish Jews
2. (Revisionist) No they didn't; the missing X million Jews can be accounted for.

#1 is a laughable absurdity which cannot be supported by evidence.
#2 is generally true, but it's not quite specific enough. Actually read my posts in the thread I cited above.

This is getting old.

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Postby Carto's Cutlass Supreme » 1 decade 3 years ago (Mon Apr 03, 2006 4:14 am)

Hi Bridgebuilder,

Your theory just won't hold up. After all how would you then explain the body of testimonial evidence of Jews claiming the Germans killed them? Revisionists can explain that, but with your theory, it just can't make sense that Jews are fixated on Germans killling them, complete with stories, when all along it was Stalin! Meanwhile there's next to no stories about genocide of Jews in the Soviet Union at the hands of Stalin.

Also, how would you explain Stalin then putting a Jewish ruler in Poland and Hungary after the war?

There's a hundred angles, I've just mentioned 2, that show your theory won't hold up.

Also, you wrote that Mao is the biggest mass murderer ever. "(Post 1945, Mao Tse Tung took the crown.)" That's simply not true either. Mao didn't kill millions of his own people.

Like Hannover, I don't want to send this thread into a direction that has already been covered.

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Postby ClaudiaRothenbach » 1 decade 3 years ago (Mon Apr 03, 2006 5:27 am)

This is now the most complete list from various sources.
We can take values for certain countries from different sources because the numbers do not depend on each other. Only if somebody needs a politically correct result of about 13 M - in this case he has to figure out the numbers that fit together.

Country _ Total _ Jews _ Source
Algerien _ 32,531,853 _ 325,319 _ CIA
Argentina _ 39,537,943 _ 790,759 _ CIA
Australia _ 19,138,000 _ 99,000 _ DellaPergola
Austria _ 8,080,000 _ 9,000 _ DellaPergola
Azerbaijan _ 8,041,000 _ 7,900 _ DellaPergola
Bahamas _ 304,000 _ 300 _ DellaPergola
Belarus _ 10,187,000 _ 24,300 _ DellaPergola
Belgium _ 10,249,000 _ 31,400 _ DellaPergola
Bolivia _ 8,239,000 _ 500 _ DellaPergola
Bosnia-Herzegovina _ 3,977,000 _ 300 _ DellaPergola
Botswana _ 1,541,000 _ 100 _ DellaPergola
Brazil _ 170,406,000 _ 97,500 _ SimpleToRemember
Bulgaria _ 7,949,000 _ 2,300 _ DellaPergola
Canada _ 30,757,000 _ 364,000 _ DellaPergola
Chile _ 15,211,000 _ 20,900 _ DellaPergola
China _ 1,282,437,000 _ 1,000 _ DellaPergola
Colombia _ 42,105,000 _ 3,400 _ DellaPergola
Congo D.R. _ 50,948,000 _ 100 _ DellaPergola
Costa Rica _ 4,024,000 _ 2,500 _ DellaPergola
Croatia _ 4,654,000 _ 1,300 _ DellaPergola
Cuba _ 11,199,000 _ 600 _ DellaPergola
Czech Republic _ 10,272,000 _ 2,800 _ DellaPergola
Denmark _ 5,320,000 _ 6,400 _ DellaPergola
Dominican Republic _ 8,373,000 _ 100 _ DellaPergola
Ecuador _ 12,646,000 _ 900 _ DellaPergola
Egypt _ 67,884,000 _ 100 _ DellaPergola
El Salvador _ 6,278,000 _ 100 _ DellaPergola
Estonia _ 1,393,000 _ 1,900 _ DellaPergola
Ethiopia _ 62,908,000 _ 100 _ DellaPergola
Finland _ 5,172,000 _ 1,100 _ DellaPergola
Francea _ 60,656,178 _ 606,562 _ CIA
Georgia _ 5,262,000 _ 5,000 _ DellaPergola
Germany _ 82,017,000 _ 115,000 _ SimpleToRemember
Gibraltar _ 27,884 _ 586 _ CIA
Greece _ 10,610,000 _ 4,500 _ DellaPergola
Guatemala _ 11,385,000 _ 900 _ DellaPergola
Hungary _ 9,968,000 _ 100,000 _ SimpleToRemember
India _ 1,008,937,000 _ 5,300 _ DellaPergola
Iran _ 70,330,000 _ 11,200 _ DellaPergola
Iraq _ 22,946,000 _ 100 _ DellaPergola
Ireland _ 3,803,000 _ 1,000 _ DellaPergola
Israela _ 6,508,800 _ 5,025,000 _ DellaPergola
Italy _ 57,530,000 _ 29,400 _ DellaPergola
Jamaica _ 2,576,000 _ 300 _ DellaPergola
Japan _ 127,096,000 _ 1,000 _ DellaPergola
Kazakhstan _ 16,172,000 _ 4,500 _ DellaPergola
Kenya _ 30,669,000 _ 400 _ DellaPergola
Korea, South _ 46,740,000 _ 100 _ DellaPergola
Kyrgyzstan _ 4,921,000 _ 900 _ DellaPergola
Latvia _ 2,421,000 _ 9,600 _ DellaPergola
Lithuania _ 3,696,000 _ 3,700 _ DellaPergola
Luxembourg _ 437,000 _ 600 _ DellaPergola
Macedonia _ 2,034,000 _ 100 _ DellaPergola
Mexico _ 98,872,000 _ 40,400 _ DellaPergola
Moldova _ 4,455,421 _ 66,831 _ CIA
Morocco _ 32,725,847 _ 65,452 _ CIA
Namibia _ 1,757,000 _ 100 _ DellaPergola
Netherlands _ 15,864,000 _ 28,000 _ DellaPergola
Netherlands Antilles _ 219,958 _ 2,859 _ DellaPergola
New Zealand _ 3,778,000 _ 5,100 _ DellaPergola
Nigeria _ 113,862,000 _ 100 _ DellaPergola
Norway _ 4,469,000 _ 1,200 _ DellaPergola
Other Central America _ 23,051,000 _ 300 _ DellaPergola
Other Asia _ 789,434,200 _ 300 _ DellaPergola
Other Europa _ 829,000 _ 100 _ DellaPergola
Other North Africa _ 69,593,000 _ 100 _ DellaPergola
Other Oceanina _ 7,645,000 _ 100 _ DellaPergola
Other South Africa _ 299,565,000 _ 300 _ DellaPergola
Panama _ 2,856,000 _ 5,000 _ DellaPergola
Paraguay _ 5,496,000 _ 900 _ DellaPergola
Peru _ 25,662,000 _ 2,600 _ DellaPergola
Philippines _ 75,653,000 _ 100 _ DellaPergola
Poland _ 38,605,000 _ 3,500 _ DellaPergola
Portugal _ 10,016,000 _ 500 _ DellaPergola
Puerto Rico _ 3,915,000 _ 1,500 _ DellaPergola
Romania _ 22,438,000 _ 10,800 _ DellaPergola
Russiab _ 145,491,000 _ 650,000 _ SimpleToRemember
Serbia and Montenegro _ 10,552,000 _ 1,700 _ DellaPergola
Singapore _ 4,018,000 _ 300 _ DellaPergola
Slovakia _ 5,399,000 _ 3,300 _ DellaPergola
Slovenia _ 1,988,000 _ 100 _ DellaPergola
South Africa _ 43,309,000 _ 88,000 _ SimpleToRemember
Spain _ 39,910,000 _ 12,000 _ DellaPergola
Suriname _ 417,000 _ 200 _ DellaPergola
Sweden _ 8,842,000 _ 15,000 _ DellaPergola
Switzerland _ 7,170,000 _ 17,700 _ DellaPergola
Syria _ 16,189,000 _ 100 _ DellaPergola
Tajikistan _ 6,087,000 _ 100 _ DellaPergola
Thailand _ 62,806,000 _ 200 _ DellaPergola
Tunisia _ 9,459,000 _ 1,500 _ DellaPergola
Turkeyb _ 66,668,000 _ 17,000 _ DellaPergola
Turkmenistan _ 4,737,000 _ 600 _ DellaPergola
Ukraine _ 47,425,336 _ 112,000 _ SimpleToRemember
United Kingdom _ 59,415,000 _ 275,000 _ SimpleToRemember
United States _ 283,230,000 _ 6,500,000 _ SimpleToRemember
Uruguay _ 3,415,920 _ 34,159 _ CIA
Uzbekistan _ 24,881,000 _ 6,000 _ DellaPergola
Venezuela _ 24,170,000 _ 15,800 _ DellaPergola
Virgin Islands _ 114,000 _ 300 _ DellaPergola
Yemen _ 18,349,000 _ 200 _ DellaPergola
Zimbabwe _ 12,627,000 _ 700 _ DellaPergola
Sum _ _ _ 15,709,826

The current calculation is:

1939 there were 16 M Jews alive on this planet.
During the war 1.5 M died (for example during the air raid in Dresden)
1945 we expect 14.5 M (assuming a low reproduction rate during the war)

Today we have probably 15.7 M.
(Still missing some atheists, convertites; we have to take into account that the numbers are pc estimates from Jews or Jewish controlled organisations, for examples USA could be more than 6.5 M).

We do not need Stalin for explanation.
"Everything has already been said, but not yet by everyone." - Karl Valentin

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Postby Laurentz Dahl » 1 decade 3 years ago (Mon Apr 03, 2006 5:46 am)

ClaudiaRothenbach wrote:Today we have probably 15.7 M.
(Still missing some atheists, convertites; we have to take into account that the numbers are pc estimates from Jews or Jewish controlled organisations, for examples USA could be more than 6.5 M).


Another group to take into consideration is the offspring from mixed marriages that do not identify themselves/are identified as Jews. The increase of Jewish-Gentile mixed marriages in for example the US post WW2 must also have contributed to the slow growth of the world wide Jewish population.

Also, it seems that the official Jewish figures from many countries is based solely on statistics from local Jewish sources, mainly religious congregations. Here in Sweden for example the number of Swedish Jews given by encyclopedias &c vary a lot - from 10-15 000 to 30 000 (it could possibly be up to 40 000). In many cases the figure given is simply the added sum of members of the three Jewish congregations in Sweden.

In an interview from 1997, Jewish journalist Nina Solomin claimed that there are "less than 10 000 Jews in Sweden". However, according to the Jewish scholar David Fischer, the number of Jews in Sweden amounts to 18 000. Another Jewish scholar, David Schwartz, gives the figure as 20-22 000!

My guess is therefore that the world wide Jewish population is more than 15 million.

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Postby Reinhard » 1 decade 3 years ago (Tue Apr 04, 2006 3:44 am)

@ Claudia:

In the publication "Weltkampf. Die Judenfrage in Geschichte und Gegenwart" (Hrsg. vom "Institut zur Erforschung der Judenfrage" unter der Leitung von Dr. phil. habil. Wilhelm Grau und Prof. Dr. Peter-Heinz Seraphim 1941-1944 / Faksimile-Nachdruck im Verlag für ganzheitliche Forschung, Viöl 1998) ["World Struggle. The Jewish Question in History and Present Time", Ed. by the "Institute for Research of the Jewish Question" 1941-1944] there are some interesting figures on the Jewish Population in South East Europe before and at the beginning of WW II:

South East Europe (Slovakia, Hungary, Rumania, Bulgaria, Yugoslavia, Greece): approximately 1.600.000 [No. 1-2/1941, p. 34]

Bulgaria (census 1934): 51.000 (= 0,8 % of the population) [No. 1-2/1941, p. 30]
Yugoslavia (census 1931): 77.000 (= 0,5 %) [No. 1-2/1941, p. 31]
Croatia (1941): approximately 30.000 to 40.000 [No. 3/1941, p.193]
Slovakia: 89.000 (= 3 %) [No. 1-2/1941, p. 34]

Greece:
Census 1928: 73.000 (= 1,2 %) [No. 1-2/1941, p. 30]
1938: 78.000 [up.cit.]
in fact (supposed): app. 100.000 [No. 3/1942, pp. 221/222]

From these in Macedonia + Thracia: app. 80.000 [up.cit.]
from these in Saloniki:
Census 1928: 56.000 (= 16,4 %) [No. 1-2/1941, p. 30]
According to the Jews in Saloniki (fall 1941): 42.000 [No. 3/1942, p. 221]
According to the Rabbi of the Jewish Community in Athens (fall 1941): app. 70.000 [up.cit.]

Rumania:
Census 1930: 757.000 (= 3,8 %) [No. 1-2/1941, pp. 31/32]
./. Northbukowina + Bessarabia (1940 to USSR): ./. 300.000 [up.cit., p.32]
./. Nordsiebenbürgen (1940 to Hungary): ./. 150.000 [up.cit.]
= Census 31 March 1941: = 302.090 [No. 3/1941, p. 194]

Hungary:
Census 1930: 445.000 (= 5,1 %) [No. 1-2/1941, p. 33]
+ territories gained from Slovakia 1938: + 80.000 [up.cit.]
+ Karpato-Ukraine (1939) + 70.000 [up.cit.]
+ Nordsiebenbürgen (1940 from Rumania) + 150.000 [up.cit.]
= 750.000 (app.) (= 5,9 %) [up.cit.]

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Postby bridgebuilder » 1 decade 3 years ago (Tue Apr 04, 2006 6:01 am)

No Jew can testify that Germans killed 6,000,000 of his fellows, not just because of Revisionist arguments, but because no individual COULD witness such a thing. The best testimony a former camp inmate could offer is "At camp X, I saw some particular murders, which testimony, in the context of the Second World War, is not to be ruled out of court. But just because some witnesses do make such claims, nothing whatever follows about where the bulk of his fellow Jews met their deaths, if indeed they did.

Now the absence of stories about a Soviet extermination of Jews might just reflect the fact that the Soviets were better at it. Solzhenitsyn reports that nobody ever returned from the Gulag on the huge island of Novaya Zemlya and so no details are known about it. We do know, though, there were Soviet camps, that achieved a 100% extermination rate.

There is a rather well-known case associated with the name of P. M. Blackett (who I think later became a Nobel laureate) in the field of Operations Research. Blackett looked at a study of R.A.F. bombers that made it back to England from raids over the Reich. Damage to the bombers was noted, and, as you would expect, the policy recommendation was that extra armour be added to the most damaged areas. Blackett, however, recommended the exact opposite. He recommended the adding of armour to the UNTOUCHED areas. His reasoning was that the survey was biased because it was of planes that made it BACK. The areas that were untouched in the planes that returned to England were most likely the vital areas in the unlucky bombers that when hit, caused them to crash.

The Jewish witnesses who made it to England are rather like the bombers that made it back: untypical of Polish Jews for that very reason. Millions of Polish Jews ended up in the hands of a mass-murderer - Stalin - following the partition of Poland. If millions of Jews really are missing, then that is why Stalin is the best bet. Every Jewish witness is evidence that the Germans did NOT have a total extermination policy.

By the way, in riposte to:

"Also, you wrote that Mao is the biggest mass murderer ever. "(Post 1945, Mao Tse Tung took the crown.)" That's simply not true either. Mao didn't kill millions of his own people. "

all I shall say is "Yah!, yah! Did too!" and poke my tongue out. I think the case for Mao being a mass murderer was established long ago. Still, I agree it's better not to get sidetracked.

On Stalin setting up Jewish lackeys as satraps in the conquered nations, so what? Kruschev was Ukrainian and had Ukrainian blood up to his elbows. One rather imagines that Stalin might have found the thought of making members of group to be exterminated actually do the exterminating, rather sweet. Thus Otto Kuusinen killed Finns. So what?

Sincerely.

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Postby Barrington James » 1 decade 3 years ago (Tue Apr 04, 2006 7:52 am)

Stalin anti-Jewish? Far from it. He was married three times and all three times he married a Jew. His children grew up and married Jews.

All the leaders of the communist party were Jews or married to a Jew. Even the later leaders were this way. Leonid Brezhnev, Molotov, and Nikita Khrushchev were married to Jews. Andropov was a Jew. Tito was the only non-Jewish leader of a communist country after the war and his mentor was the Jew Mosa Pijade. The rest were Jews. Hungary was run by Rosencratz, Singer and Vas, Czechoslovakia by Rudoph Stansky, Berman ran Poland, Anna Pauker ran Roumania and so on.

Every top man in Stalin’s secret police was a Jew including the notorious Beria. They ran his concentration camps from top to bottom, including the little known post war camps for German Nationals in Eastern and Central Europe. And guess what? When they found him no more useful to their cause they killed him.

Were Jews victims in Russia? Far from it. The revolution was their thing. They thought of it, financed it and ran it and killed 20, 000, 000 Christians in doing so.
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Postby Carto's Cutlass Supreme » 1 decade 3 years ago (Tue Apr 04, 2006 2:10 pm)

Hi Barrington, Surely that's got to be an exaggeration. If not, you might want to turn Kevin MacDonald on to your research sources. :?

Bridgebuilder: so not only is Stalin a huge murderer (with the prize going to Mao though) but now we have Kruschev "who had Ukrainian blood up to his elbows." Did Reader's Digest compile a history book or something?

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Postby Haldan » 1 decade 3 years ago (Tue Apr 04, 2006 3:25 pm)

Barrington James wrote:Molotov were married to Jews. .


Not only that; Molotov was himself a Jewish man, who decided to abandon his earlier name.

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Postby Kiwichap » 1 decade 3 years ago (Wed Apr 05, 2006 2:27 am)

Look, lets not talk numbers, they are shadows and mirrors - hocus pocus.

http://www.jewishsf.com/content/2-0-/module/displaystory/story_id/17008/edition_id/335/format/html/displaystory.html
In his meeting with Russian President Vladimir Putin last month, Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon complimented Russia for encouraging the growth of its Jewish community. But he warned Putin that he would still try to persuade an additional 1 million Jews to join the 1 million who immigrated to Israel from the former Soviet Union over the last decade.


http://www.fjc.ru/news/newsArticle.asp?AID=217522
"How many Jews are there in Russia?" is a question that is rather sensitive to the Jewish community. Chief Rabbi of Russia Berel Lazar challenges census figures that there are only 230,000 Jews residing in the country. "There are more than one million Jews in Russia," expressed Rabbi Lazar. "But how many are there in reality? Unfortunately, we don't actually know." One of the results of the FJC Forum was the decision for the Jewish community to conduct its own census of the Jewish population, in order to reveal the actual number of Jews residing in Russia.



http://www.jta.org/page_view_story.asp?intarticleid=11930&intcategoryid=2
Friday October 18, 2002
True Jewish count seems unlikely in Russian census
LEV KRICHEVSKY
Jewish Telegraphic Agency
MOSCOW -- How many Jews are there in Russia?

With current estimates ranging from 250,000 to more than 3 million people, one might hope that Russia's census, taking place this month, could help answer the question.


"How many Jews are there in Russia?" is a question that is rather sensitive to the Jewish community.

Now why would that be?

My hypothesis:

Sharon wanted 1 million Jews to emigrate to Israel. It was in all the papers, no one was interested. In a huff Sharon said he would get 1 Million Jews from Russia, if Jews did not come. I have the Haaretz report, somewhere.

Remember, we are talking about a country (Israel) that debated in it's parliament, the question: "What is a Jew?"

The outcome after prolonged debate was, NOBODY KNOWS!

So 'we' dice with numbers about a people who question them-selves, 'who are they'!

In Russia there are millions and millions and millions of Jews, in that big red part of the map. Sharon could get them with a snap of his fingers. Don't be deceived. With these people, it's all hocus pocus.
There was no holocaust.

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