Where did they go? Killed?

Read and post various viewpoints or search our large archives.

Moderator: Moderator

Forum rules
Be sure to read the Rules/guidelines before you post!
Barrington James
Valued contributor
Valued contributor
Posts: 362
Joined: Mon Feb 14, 2005 8:26 pm

Postby Barrington James » 1 decade 4 years ago (Wed Apr 05, 2006 8:04 am)

An exaggeration? Dear Carto's Cutless Supreme. I am not an expert on the numbers but here is a report on the deaths in the Soviet Union via Google that seems interesting....but I will claim that the so-called Russian revolution was not really Russian in the sense the Jews did it all from top to bottom...I also like to think that if I had been a Jew in the Czarist Russia I would have joined the communist movement too...hopefully I would not have turned into a killer but that seems to be the way of most fanatical idealists...

Soviet Union, Stalin's regime (1924-53): 20 000 000 [make link]
There are basically two schools of thought when it comes to the number who died at Stalin's hands. There's the "Why doesn't anyone realize that communism is the absolutely worst thing ever to hit the human race, without exception, even worse than both world wars, the slave trade and bubonic plague all put together?" school, and there's the "Come on, stop exaggerating. The truth is horrifying enough without you pulling numbers out of thin air" school. The two schools are generally associated with the right and left wings of the political spectrum, and they often accuse each other of being blinded by prejudice, stubbornly refusing to admit the truth, and maybe even having a hidden agenda. Also, both sides claim that recent access to former Soviet archives has proven that their side is right.
Here are a few illustrative estimates from the Big Numbers school:
Adler, N., Victims of Soviet Terror, 1993 cites these:
Chistyakovoy, V. (Neva, no.10): 20 million killed during the 1930s.
Dyadkin, I.G. (Demograficheskaya statistika neyestestvennoy smertnosti v SSSR 1918-1956 ): 56 to 62 million "unnatural deaths" for the USSR overall, with 34 to 49 million under Stalin.
Gold, John.: 50-60 million.
Davies, Norman (Europe A History, 1998): c. 50 million killed 1924-53, excluding WW2 war losses. This would divide (more or less) into 33M pre-war and 17M after 1939.
Rummel, 1990: 61,911,000 democides in the USSR 1917-87, of which 51,755,000 occurred during the Stalin years. This divides up into:
1923-29: 2,200,000 (plus 1M non-democidal famine deaths)
1929-39: 15,785,000 (plus 2M non-democidal famine)
1939-45: 18,157,000
1946-54: 15,613,000 (plus 333,000 non-democidal famine)
TOTAL: 51,755,000 democides and 3,333,000 non-demo. famine
William Cockerham, Health and Social Change in Russia and Eastern Europe: 50M+
Wallechinsky: 13M (1930-32) + 7M (1934-38)
Cited by Wallechinsky:
Medvedev, Roy (Let History Judge): 40 million.
Solzhenitsyn, Aleksandr: 60 million.
MEDIAN: 51 million for the entire Stalin Era; 20M during the 1930s.
And from the Lower Numbers school:
Nove, Alec ("Victims of Stalinism: How Many?" in J. Arch Getty (ed.) Stalinist Terror: New Perspectives, 1993): 9,500,000 "surplus deaths" during the 1930s.
Cited in Nove:
Maksudov, S. (Poteri naseleniya SSSR, 1989): 9.8 million abnormal deaths between 1926 and 1937.
Tsaplin, V.V. ("Statistika zherty naseleniya v 30e gody" 1989): 6,600,000 deaths (hunger, camps and prisons) between the 1926 and 1937 censuses.
Dugin, A. ("Stalinizm: legendy i fakty" 1989): 642,980 counterrevolutionaries shot 1921-53.
Muskovsky Novosti (4 March 1990): 786,098 state prisoners shot, 1931-53.
Gordon, A. (What Happened in That Time?, 1989, cited in Adler, N., Victims of Soviet Terror, 1993): 8-9 million during the 1930s.
Ponton, G. (The Soviet Era, 1994): cites an 1990 article by Milne, et al., that excess deaths 1926-39 were likely 3.5 million and at most 8 million.
MEDIAN: 8.5 Million during the 1930s.
As you can see, there's no easy compromise between the two schools. The Big Numbers are so high that picking the midpoint between the two schools would still give us a Big Number. It may appear to be a rather pointless argument -- whether it's fifteen or fifty million, it's still a huge number of killings -- but keep in mind that the population of the Soviet Union was 164 million in 1937, so the upper estimates accuse Stalin of killing nearly 1 out of every 3 of his people, an extremely Polpotian level of savagery. The lower numbers, on the other hand, leave Stalin with plenty of people still alive to fight off the German invasion.
[Letter]
Although it's too early to be taking sides with absolute certainty, a consensus seems to be forming around a death toll of 20 million. This would adequately account for all documented nastiness without straining credulity:
In The Great Terror (1969), Robert Conquest suggested that the overall death toll was 20 million at minimum -- and very likely 50% higher, or 30 million. This would divide roughly as follows: 7M in 1930-36; 3M in 1937-38; 10M in 1939-53. By the time he wrote The Great Terror: A Re-assessment (1992), Conquest was much more confident that 20 million was the likeliest death toll.
Britannica, "Stalinism": 20M died in camps, of famine, executions, etc., citing Medvedev
Brzezinski: 20-25 million, dividing roughly as follows: 7M destroying the peasantry; 12M in labor camps; 1M excuted during and after WW2.
Daniel Chirot:
"Lowest credible" estimate: 20M
"Highest": 40M
Citing:
Conquest: 20M
Antonov-Ovseyenko: 30M
Medvedev: 40M
Courtois, Stephane, Black Book of Communism (Le Livre Noir du Communism): 20M for the whole history of Soviet Union, 1917-91.
Essay by Nicolas Werth: 15M
[Ironic observation: The Black Book of Communism seems to vote for Hitler as the answer to the question of who's worse, Hitler (25M) or Stalin (20M).]
John Heidenrich, How to Prevent Genocide: A Guide for Policymakers, Scholars, and the Concerned Citizen (2001): 20M, incl.
Kulaks: 7M
Gulag: 12M
Purge: 1.2M (minus 50,000 survivors)
Adam Hochschild, The Unquiet Ghost: Russians Remember Stalin: directly responsible for 20 million deaths.
Tina Rosenberg, The Haunted Land: Facing Europes Ghosts After Communism (1995): upwards of 25M
Time Magazine (13 April 1998): 15-20 million.
AVERAGE: Of the 17 estimates of the total number of victims of Stalin, the median is 30 million.
Individual Gulags etc.
Kolyma
Kuropaty
Vorkuta
Bykivnia


So who knows how many deaths were attributable to the revolution?The point I was trying to make is that the Jews have not aways been victims in the 1000 year old Jew-Christian war. Sometimes they lost as in the Inquistions, Nazi persecution and so on and sometimes they"won" as in the Russian Revoluton and Palestine...and the world will keep racing to an end unless we face the truth...and the some biggest truths are Palestine and their position on the holocaust... but American Imperialism is the biggest truth of all...
You can fool too many of the people most of the time.

Radar
Valued contributor
Valued contributor
Posts: 505
Joined: Sat Feb 26, 2005 2:25 pm

Postby Radar » 1 decade 4 years ago (Wed Apr 05, 2006 11:07 am)

In the Nazi pushing of Jews to the east there is no doubt that many came under the control of the Soviet Union. We know something about the recent emigrations to Israel and some of these people were probably war time arrivals in Soviet lands. As was pointed out there is little information available in the west about the fate of these people and about Jews in the Soviet empire in general but I would point out that the great Russian writer, Alexander Solzhenitsyn has now written a multi-volume work on the subject of the Jews in Russia and the historical relationships with Russians. It is his latest work and it has not appeared in translation in English as far as I know but I believe has been published in German. It seems that there is a concerted effort to keep the book from publication in the United States for the usual reason that it is not entirely flattering to the Jews. He is no longer a "hot" writer in politically correct circles in the US as he was in the past for this and other reasons. Perhaps if the book has appeared in Gemany one of our German correspondents can tell us if Solzhenitsyn deals at all with the numbers and history of the Jews forced east during the war.

Carto's Cutlass Supreme
Valuable asset
Valuable asset
Posts: 2394
Joined: Tue Dec 07, 2004 1:42 am
Location: Northern California

Postby Carto's Cutlass Supreme » 1 decade 4 years ago (Wed Apr 05, 2006 12:12 pm)

Revisionists want to show a path from Poland, to USSR, to Israel, and that's going to be hard.

They discarded their last names, and they discarded their language.

If you research the holocaust, you come upon lots of yiddish. That was the language they spoke. Yet, 60 years later, that language is nearly non-existent, and the Jews don't seem to mind. They replaced it with an entirely different language from a different language family: Hebrew.

To allege that they discarded their last names might seem like an exaggeration. But just in studying alleged death camp eyewitnesses, name-changing is ubiquitous. Take the Reinhard camps: Elias Rosenberg became Eliyahu Rosenberg. Rudolf Reder had been Roman Robak. There's way more. Then the historian who wrote about it, Yitzhak Arad, used to be Yitzhak Rudnitski.

Combine that with the aspect of Jews where it's often hard to know if they are Jews or Poles; or Jews or Germans; Jews or Hungarians, in the first place.

And then add to that that Israel or the Soviet Union had vested interests in hiding a Poland-->Soviet Union-->Israel path. Both needed the holocaust story.

And that might not have been the path. The path might have been Poland to Soviet Union back to Jewish controlled post-war Poland, and then to Israel. That could explain shiploads, but the only one making publicity was Hillel Kook's Altalena, because in addition to that ship being full of Yiddish people who somehow survived the alleged holocaust, it was also full of weapons to try to take over what is today Jordan.
Last edited by Carto's Cutlass Supreme on Wed Apr 05, 2006 1:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Hannover
Valuable asset
Valuable asset
Posts: 10064
Joined: Sun Nov 24, 2002 7:53 pm

Postby Hannover » 1 decade 4 years ago (Wed Apr 05, 2006 12:50 pm)

Revisionists want to show a path from Germany, to USSR, to Israel, and that's going to be hard.

Actually Poland, to USSR, to Israel would be a better path for the above quote. But I think that is over simplifying matters. Many paths occurred, that is merely one of them.

When it's all said and done however, the 'where did they go' question is misstated, a canard. More appropriately, considering the laughable claim of '6,000,000', the real question is: Where did the physical evidence go?

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

Carto's Cutlass Supreme
Valuable asset
Valuable asset
Posts: 2394
Joined: Tue Dec 07, 2004 1:42 am
Location: Northern California

Postby Carto's Cutlass Supreme » 1 decade 4 years ago (Wed Apr 05, 2006 2:07 pm)

Thanks Hannover. I just fixed that.

I wouldn't be surprised if the number of Ashkenazi Jewish "holocaust survivors" going to Israel in 1946 and 1947, was 20 times the number from 1943 through May 1945.

And for '46 and much of '47, you're really not going to have any records because they were all smuggled in past the British. Similar to US immigration. Much of Los Angeles, for instance is foreign, as can be seen by the foreign languages you hear so many people speaking. And most of them are illegal. Those people are here. You can see them with your own eyes. But there's likely no record of when they arrived, or how they got here.

User avatar
Kiwichap
Valuable asset
Valuable asset
Posts: 739
Joined: Sat Mar 05, 2005 11:54 pm
Location: New Zealand

Postby Kiwichap » 1 decade 4 years ago (Thu Apr 06, 2006 2:33 am)

Carto, Are you sure, re: Yiddish:
They replaced it with an entirely different language from a different language family: Hebrew.


What we call Hebrew, ie: 'modern Hebrew' IS Yiddish.

The Yiddish clap-trap has been phonetically connected to the ancient Hebrew Alphabet.

http://www.abc.net.au/rn/arts/ling/stories/s1422332.htm
The visiting Israeli linguist Ghil'ad Zuckermann explains why the language Israelis call 'Modern Hebrew' is not Hebrew revived, but a hybrid language with its own grammar, based on Yiddish, the mother tongue of its founder population, and on 'sleeping beauty' - or 'walking dead' - Hebrew.

Ghil'ad Zuckermann: Well, Okay. This was one of the theories which preceded my own, and the theory was that Israeli is Yiddish with Hebrew words. So in other words, those who claim so, said that Israelis continue to speak Yiddish, which was the mother tongue of the revivalists, but instead of using Yiddish words, they use Hebrew words. Those who claimed that Israeli – well, they called it Modern Hebrew – is Yiddish relexified, say that Israeli is only Indo-European, it’s only a European language like Yiddish because the structures, everything, is Yiddish. Only the words are Hebrew.


http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/yiddish.html
Yiddish was, and is, written using Hebrew characters.


Cheers.
There was no holocaust.

Tit 1:14 Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth.

J William
Valued contributor
Valued contributor
Posts: 151
Joined: Thu Jul 03, 2003 2:21 pm

Postby J William » 1 decade 4 years ago (Thu Apr 06, 2006 7:03 am)

Yiddish is/was a German dialect from the Frankfurt area taken by the Jews as their language. It contained about 90% German words, 10 % Polish and Hebrew.
A definition-Yiddish: a dialect of High German including some Hebrew and other words; spoken as a vernacular by European Jews

Carto's Cutlass Supreme
Valuable asset
Valuable asset
Posts: 2394
Joined: Tue Dec 07, 2004 1:42 am
Location: Northern California

Postby Carto's Cutlass Supreme » 1 decade 4 years ago (Thu Apr 06, 2006 11:40 am)

And 10% Polish and Hebrew could mean about 2 % Hebrew. A token amount. English probably has a higher amount of slang from the 1970's, 80's, and 90's, than that.

Yiddish is written in Hebrew characters, only because Hebrew is a phonetic alphabet. It is the same as how I could write Japanese with an English phonetic alphabet, like arigato. "Thank you" in Japanese.

From what I can understand, I don't think that Zuckerman is telling the truth. It's in ashkenazi best interest to have a yiddish Hebrew connection, to validate a connection to the holy land. which is why they chose the Hebrew phonetic alphabet to write a German dialect in the first place.

The tie in to the holocaust, is that yiddish was discarded, in fact even suppressed in Israel. It's one of the many reasons it's hard to show a trail of emigration from Europe to Israel. Yiddish emigration being a major tenet of revisionism.

User avatar
ClaudiaRothenbach
Valued contributor
Valued contributor
Posts: 569
Joined: Tue Feb 10, 2004 2:16 pm

Postby ClaudiaRothenbach » 1 decade 4 years ago (Fri Apr 07, 2006 11:39 am)

Has anybody seen the result of the census in Russia?
"Everything has already been said, but not yet by everyone." - Karl Valentin

Bergmann
Valued contributor
Valued contributor
Posts: 382
Joined: Wed Feb 23, 2005 4:29 pm

Postby Bergmann » 1 decade 4 years ago (Tue May 16, 2006 10:56 pm)

Where did they go?

According to the orthodox Holocaust story, something like 1.2 million Jews were transported to the camps in Belzec, Treblinka, Sobibor and Chelmno, where they were gassed with diesel exhaust fumes.

Now, the hoaxers seem to have a hell of a problem to come up with proof of the whereabouts of the human remains of the gassed people. A Polish archeologis Prof Kola spent 3 years excavating in Belzec and found at the most the remains of one thousand people, less than one percent of the last claimed number of 435,000 victims for Belzec, a number which seems to be in vogue now.

Instead of admitting that they have a problem with finding the human remains, the hoaxers turn around and request from the revisionist to come up with an answer to where these people were transferred.

The Jews were obviously transferred to the hundreds, thousands of camps and ghettos in East Poland and Russia, established by the Nazis. Here are the locations of some ghettos.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/e ... hettos.png

So where are the documentations for such transfers, the hoaxers request? Well, what happened to the documents on which the SS based the numbers of Jews channelled through those camps and which were given to Korherr to prepare the Korherr Report?

They are in my opinion either lost, or locked up safely in some archive in Israel, Washington or Germany.
The information in these documents may very well destroy the Holocaust story as we know it and as it is told to us.

Robert B. Goldmann "... No Jewish state without the Holocaust”
Source: Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung, 19.12.1997, S. 9

User avatar
Haldan
Valuable asset
Valuable asset
Posts: 1371
Joined: Thu Apr 24, 2003 9:56 pm
Location: <secret>
Contact:

Postby Haldan » 1 decade 1 year ago (Tue Feb 17, 2009 9:30 am)

As it has already been stated, they practically went wherever they could. One more place where many went is Birobidzhan (click for information about Birobidzhan). Does anybody else have any other vital information about this place?

Faithfully,
-haldan
<?php if ($Holocaust == false ) {deny_repeatedly(); } else { investigate(); } ?>
Homage to Catalin Haldan

User avatar
Haldan
Valuable asset
Valuable asset
Posts: 1371
Joined: Thu Apr 24, 2003 9:56 pm
Location: <secret>
Contact:

Re: Where did they go? Killed?

Postby Haldan » 6 years 8 months ago (Sat Oct 19, 2013 9:00 am)

A person by the nom de plume “montcalm” has compiled a list of 37 news articles from the Jewish Telegraphic Agency, between 1939 – 1945, about the Soviets evacuating up-to 1.8 million Jews deep into the Soviet Union, ‘saving’ them from the Nazis.

I will attach the collection from “montcalm” as a download. Surely it is relevant to the subject of this thread. The file is approximately twenty eight megabytes in size, download via:
http://haldan.neophytos.org/pdf/Soviet-evacuation-of-the-Jews01_haldan.pdf

Feel free to save it and circulate elsewhere.

Regards,
-haldan
<?php if ($Holocaust == false ) {deny_repeatedly(); } else { investigate(); } ?>
Homage to Catalin Haldan

User avatar
Hannover
Valuable asset
Valuable asset
Posts: 10064
Joined: Sun Nov 24, 2002 7:53 pm

Re: Where did they go? Killed?

Postby Hannover » 6 years 8 months ago (Sat Oct 19, 2013 5:45 pm)

Haldan wrote:A person by the nom de plume “montcalm” has compiled a list of 37 news articles from the Jewish Telegraphic Agency, between 1939 – 1945, about the Soviets evacuating up-to 1.8 million Jews deep into the Soviet Union, ‘saving’ them from the Nazis.

I will attach the collection from “montcalm” as a download. Surely it is relevant to the subject of this thread. The file is approximately twenty eight megabytes in size, download via:
http://haldan.neophytos.org/pdf/Soviet-evacuation-of-the-Jews01_haldan.pdf

Feel free to save it and circulate elsewhere.

Regards,
-haldan
Excellent work, Haldan. This is definitely a keeper.

Another nail in the 'holocaust' coffin.

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

georgesmiley
Member
Member
Posts: 47
Joined: Thu Apr 11, 2013 1:44 pm

Re: Where did they go? Killed?

Postby georgesmiley » 6 years 8 months ago (Sun Oct 20, 2013 6:28 am)

I just tried to acces the PDF offered by Haldan but could not. If the following information is already in the PDF feel free to delete this message:

The following quotes are from a document entitled The ADL and its use in the World Communist Offensive by Robert Williams, which can be accessed here: http://archive.org/details/TheAnti-defamationLeagueAndItsUseInTheWorldCommunistOffensive.1947

The first is to provide background on the source of the second quote.

Let Louis Levine, national chairman of the Jewish Council of Russian
Relief, tell you. Levine paid an extended visit to Russia last summer and
came back hysterical in his enthusiasm for the Soviet regime. He reported
before an audience provided by, and I believe sponsored by, leading
Jewish organizations and publicists of Chicago. The heart of these group
gatherings appears to be the A D L . In an article in the November, 1946,
issue of Soviet Russia Today, Levine (billed as "Outstanding leader of
American Jewry") wrote: "Special concern for the Jewish people has
characterized the Soviet Union since its birth in the 1917 Revolution. A
week after tsarism was overthrown, the infant Socialist government, headed
by Lenin, legally abolished national oppression, making it the first country
in the world to declare anti-Semitism a crime. . . . Every manifestation of
anti-Semitism was fought openly and sternly."


Levine then goes on to make the following observation

"And at the outset of the war, as we all know, Jews were
among the first evacuated from the western regions threatened by the
Hitlerite invaders, and shipped to safety east of the Urals." Thus Levine
tells us the privileged persons saved from the Nazis were Jewish. He said
2,000,000 of them were thus saved
. (Were the privileged class of whom
Kravchenko wrote among these?)

Another observer writes of seeing Jews vacationing in luxury at resorts
on the Black Sea, while Gentiles starved in Russian mills. This was just
before the War.


So we have another account of some 2 million people being evacuated into soviet territory.

User avatar
TheBlackRabbitofInlé
Valuable asset
Valuable asset
Posts: 834
Joined: Mon Sep 26, 2011 10:38 am

Re: Where did they go? Killed?

Postby TheBlackRabbitofInlé » 6 years 8 months ago (Sun Oct 20, 2013 6:36 pm)

georgesmiley wrote:I just tried to acces the PDF offered by Haldan but could not.


Neither can I access the pdf.

But it sounds very much like “montcalm” has been looking at my blog.

Soviets evacuating Jews

37 articles from the Jewish Telegraphic Agency, between 1939 - 1945, about the Soviets
evacuating up-to 1.8 million Jews deep into the Soviet Union, saving them from the Nazis

http://winstonsmithministryoftruth.blogspot.co.uk/2012/07/soviets-evacuating-jews.html
Nazis tried to create super-soldiers, using steroids ... they sought to reanimate the dead—coffins of famous Germanic warriors were found hidden in a mine, with plans to bring them back to life at the war’s end.
- Prof. Noah Charney


Return to “'Holocaust' Debate / Controversies / Comments / News”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests