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disillusioned
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Confused...

Postby disillusioned » 1 decade 5 years ago (Mon May 17, 2004 8:55 am)

I have been reading quite a lot of revisionist material, and I have to say I am completely blown away. That's not an unfamiliar feeling. I mean, part of me feels like I should have known better because I have know what disillusionment feels like.

But "disillusionment" is usually an emotional process. When it comes to the holocaust, which is supposed to be a matter of historical *fact*, I should not feel disillusioned. I should maybe just feel like I was wrong, like, "oooops.... I always thought tomatoes were a vegetable."

I think the reason for the emtional backdrop is that WWII in our culture has taken on mythological proportions. Instead of viewing it as a political/military struggle (which they all are), this war took on cosmic significance of the "good vs. evil" type.

George Washington did not chop down a cherry tree. In my mind, at this point, the "believers" are about on par with Creationists. I wouldn't be surprised if many of them are also Creationists.

All this being said, I do have some questions.

First....

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Much of the MEBG (mass exterminatinon by gassing) debate has become focused on whether or not there were holes in the roof of the Auschwitz crema.

So what if there was holes? It says nothing about the feasibility of gassing jews in the manner described.

Let me get this straight..

1) Jews were gathered from all over eastern europe into trains and shipped back to death camps to be gassed.

2) They were stripped down naked and stuffed to the point of suffocation into a box under the pretense of taking a shower. Children and other people were tossed in on top of people when there was no more room.

3) They were then gassed in the most inefficient manner possible.

4) The bodies were removed and buried.

5) The bodies were dug up and moved to the crema.

6) The bodies were incinerated out of existence by the most inefficient possible way.


Following these steps, the germans managed to kill how many millions in how little time and make all their bodies disappear?

Why don't the believers just concede that its bullshit?
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Second....
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I keep seeing revisionists being accused of practicing pseudo-science. What the hell is psuedo-science? How does it apply to revisionists?
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Thanks...

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Postby Sailor » 1 decade 5 years ago (Mon May 17, 2004 10:54 am)

Your points are well taken and should really be answered by an "anti-revisionist".

The Holocaust believers made in my opinion two cardinal mistakes:

1. To invent and cling to exotic type execution methods (gas chambers, gas-vans, by steam and electrocution, mass executions like 35,000 being shot at a time). The gas chamber concept should have been abandoned long ago.

2. To make Holocaust denial illegal, punishable with up to 5 years in jail, in an attempt to suppress any skeptical investigation of the Holocaust story right in the bud. If the Holocaust essentially really happened as alleged, there would be no need for such laws. Now we find ourselves in a situation, where "forbidden fruits" taste best, and are very much tempted to look into the Holocaust story more critically.

We know today, that about 170,000 Jews lived in Germany in 1941. After the deportations of most of them and after it was all over, only about 17,000 survived. So a legitimate question is, what happened to the rest?

I don't believe that they were gassed or executed en masse. I think that they perished from malnutrition, epidemics and diseases, overwork, the harsh environment and lack of "creature comfort".

To quote Joel Haywards:
Now having said all of this, I also believe that Jewish organizations have been incredibly heavy-handed and repressive in confronting the holocaust revisionist issue. Typically, they revert to name-calling and harassment and advocating silencing revisionists. What this has done is give revisionists a decided underdog image and lend credibility to their charges that Jews are afraid to debate the issues because they fear the results. This argument has some merits, and one has to really wonder what they have to fear.
What they have to fear is not that the Holocaust will be debunked [exposed while ridiculed]. I think the Jewish community has the resources and personnel to give the revisionist movement a serious challenge in a debate situation. In terms of the bulk of expert testimony alone the Jewish community could snow their opposition. What the Jewish community fears is that to allow the holocaust to even be debatable is an admission of uncertainty, and that cannot happen. There is probably no issue so central to Jewish identity as the Holocaust. One can argue whether this should or shouldn't be, but it nevertheless is.

Had they done this, they wouldn't have boxed themselves into a corner as they have. What could happen (and I think it will happen) is that no amount of repression and name-calling will keep scholars from investigating this issue (some might even be attracted by it on those grounds alone), and it's probably just a matter of time until some mainstream scholar, possibly nearing retirement, will publish the revisionist book that will break the dam and then all this effort has been for naught.



fge

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 5 years ago (Mon May 17, 2004 4:54 pm)

Confused? I'm not, people lie (individually or as a group) when it's beneficial for them to lie.

Sailor asks:
We know today, that about 170,000 Jews lived in Germany in 1941. After the deportations of most of them and after it was all over, only about 17,000 survived. So a legitimate question is, what happened to the rest?

Just look where you find lot's of Jews.

The term 'survived' implies 'survived extermination', but there's no evidence for exterminations. A better description is 'not deported', or 'did not go to Palestine or elsewhere', etc. And, if there was a policy to 'exterminate' Jews, then why were there 17,000 Jews still in Germany?
Those are some of the issues we debate.

You've come to the right place for answers. Welcome.

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Postby Sailor » 1 decade 5 years ago (Mon May 17, 2004 7:20 pm)

Sanning counted in Germany for 1941: 164,000 Jews and in 1945: 27,000 survivors and 123,000 missing.

He did not detail what happened to the 123,000 missing Jews.

But in Table 14 in his book "The Dissolution…" he comes up with 1,548,000 European Jews who immigrated to Palestine/Israel, the US, Latin America, Canada, Australia, England and South Africa.

We don't know how many German Jews were among these immigrants, and we probably will never know.

fge

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Postby friedrich braun » 1 decade 5 years ago (Tue May 18, 2004 7:08 am)

Here's what a believer wrote:

You will find that the winning bid for the contract to bulid , the blue prints for , and the names of all concerned fell into Russian hands when the camp was over run by Soviet forces.
They used this information to knock on the doors of the people who designed and built these structures.
These people were charged and rightly convicted for their part in supply the machinery of mass murder.
They knew what tey were building and from the specs. knew what its function was to be , they knowingly became acsessories to murder.
What you ask is no mystery it has been explored and proven as a fact.

If this proof of "a lie" is so strong and certain lets have it out to the worlds media , at once and with no delay.
Don't waste it on a small internet forum with limited exposure.

This is all I have to say , it is all I need to say.


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