Here is a more recent debate I had with Nessie on another board. Let me summarize.
When it comes to Tauber's claim of 4 adult bodies being destroyed in one muffle in 30 minutes to the point of the remains falling through the grate and being able to add 4 more, Nessie believed it. I quoted many extracts from Mattogno's book THE CREMATION FURNACES OF AUSCHWITZ [ PDF
]. They contained cremation experiments from Germany and Italy as far back as the 1900's and right on up to the 1930's. Not even a coke fired furnace in Germany in the 1930's could process that many corpses. Nessie thought he would be clever and he cited a 28 June 1943 document from Mattogno on page 293 for cremation times that were short but still nowhere near what Tauber claimed. "On the basis of this document, the duration of one cremation was 25 minutes in the double muffle furnace and 15 minutes in the furnaces with three or eight muffles."
Mattogno later refuted that document in section 9.6 which runs from pages 341 to 344. Those documents were written by non experts and so full of errors they needed correcting. There was historical precedent for doing this as Mattogno has found many corrected documents making notes of errors in other ones. His examples from the Central Construction Office of Auschwitz archives are in footnotes 559 and 560. https://s14.postimg.org/8hpoo27tt/mattogno_341.pnghttps://s14.postimg.org/gn7qm8ynl/mattogno342.pnghttps://s14.postimg.org/3vtkfr4b5/mattogno343.pnghttps://s14.postimg.org/9jzv6no35/mattogno344.png
Of course, Nessie just hand-waved them and ignored them. He also hand-waved and ignored my detailed summary of one section of Mattogno's book. 9.2.
Werd wrote:Section 9.2
has Mattogno saying that "we must examine whether...it would have been possible to raise the cremation capacity by increasing the load by introducing two or more corpses at once into the muffle." (p. 314). This 9.2 is then subdivided further. 9.2.1
discusses experiments with animal carcass incineration furnaces. First, an eight carcass destruction furnace from the Kori Co. is mentioned in Document 260 as well as further in the 9.2 section. Mattogno also talked about furnace model 1a and gave the following:
Mass of the brickwork in kg.
Hourly coke feed in kg.
Hearth efficiency (according to Keepke)
Lower heating value of hard coal given in kcal/kg
coal requires to heat brickwork from 20 degrees Celcius all the way to 800 degrees Ceclius.
When discussing the different models that were used to obtain data, models 2b and 4b, we see the results in a couple of tables composed by Mattogno. Basically, the heavier the load, the longer it takes the the more the coal is necessary to do away with the animal carcasses. What this means is "raising the thermal design limits of the Topf furnaces for an overloading of the muffles would not have led to any gain in productivity." (p. 316).9.2.2 talks about experiences from the Westerbork crematoria. In the Westerbork crematorium, two corpses were never done simultaneously. Except for an adult and a small child. "During occasional cremations of one small child together with one adult corpse it had been observed that the small corpses had a significant effect on the cremation process, extending its average duration by 14% (50 minutes to 57 minutes) beyond the average cremation time of single adult corpses." (p. 316) 9.2.3
cites a February 1944 letter from Hans Kori to the Waffen SS and the Police PoW camp at Lubli-Majdanek. Part of the letter says:
For the fuel supply for a given heating period one may assume that for preheating the furnace 50kg of coke are required, in addition to 25kg of coke for each incineration. For 10 incinerations in one day, this leads to a total consumption of some 300kg. It is of no importance whether coke is used exclusively or a mixture of coke and hard coal is used. In the latter case, one would operate with a mixture of 150 kg [of coal] and 150 kg [of coke]. An equal amount of 300kg for one day would also allow 20 incinerations to be handled easily, if one abandons individual introductions.
25kg for one cremation falls in line with the consumption at Gusen. "The fact that the fuel requirements were calculated for 10 cremations in each muffle (or a total of 50 cremations per day) means that the duration of one cremation was at least one hour (2 hours of per-heating plus 10 hours of cremation = one operating day of 12 hours)." (p. 317) The reference to abandoning individual introductions and putting more than one corpse into the muffle to apparently save on fuel was discounted by Erich Mussfeldt, the man responsible for the crematorium in Lublin-Majdanek. At his trial he said one corpse, one muffle, one hour. Should we also believe that Kori would make a statement that would disagree with the experimental data obtained by furnaces that he himself designed? Kori also said that sometimes a certain problem will be encountered.
If on opening the hearth doors, a bright flame juts forth from the slots of the smoke dampers, this is caused by the pressure of false air. It is merely necessary to fill the unnecessarily wide air gaps next to the damper plates in order to prevent both cold air from entering the furnace and the appearance of such flames.
It had not been technically possible to manufacture refractory dampers which could be hermetically closed. Kori also said that if the temperature in the front part of the oven is not high enough for a rapid incineration, this would also be from the leakage of false air into the muffle. With false air lowering the temperature, introducing two corpses REALLY wouldn't make things better. These factors that would happen occasionally also mean that the letter above quoting all those numbers are just theory and not based on facts and factors. You can't say therefore that you can cremate two corpses in the same time it takes to cremate one. We saw that demonstrated in 9.2.1
regarding animal carcass incineration.9.2.4
is called "Thermal Inadequacy during Water Evaporation." The average water content for a 70kg body is about 45 kg. When you break a body down, you have to evaporate the water content. Water. Steam. Things cool down for a bit. "In the evaporation phase, the most important heat losses were those by radiation and by conduction." (p.320). In the 1930's that was noted by Professor Schlapfer. He talked about how hot the walls would have to be in order to radiate a certain amount of heat continuously onto a corpse to destroy it. 800 degrees Celcius will yield 1,400 kcal/min. 700 degress is 930 kcal/min. 600 degress is 600 kcal/min and 500 degress is 360 kcal/min. Introducing more than one corpse will affect the heat to cargo ratio. That means the walls will cool with extra water vapour about to be dispersed. So how do we deal with this? Well we have to regain some thermal heat energy.
"The heat required to evaporate and superheat the water contained in two corpses, ca. 79,700 kcal, would become available only over a period of (79,700 kcal ÷ 600 kcal/min) some 130 minutes at a constant temperature of 600 degrees Celcius. However, the wall temperature of the muffle would not say constant for such a long time but would drop rather significantly."(p.321). Observe the numbers from Schlapfer. Regarding the Topf triple muffle furnace, the weight of the brickwork was 1,500 kg. To supply the heat that was lost during the evaporation of water from two corpses, "each muffle would have had to contribute 79,700 kcal, which would mean that the average wall temperature of the muffles would have had to drop by about 265 degrees Celcius." (p. 321). So if the muffle was at 800 degrees, introducing two corpses would drop it to around 535 degrees. One has to compensate for this heat loss. A period of preheating would be required. The heat supplied to each muffle of a Topf triple muffle was 1,291 kcal/min. Hence 79,700 kcal ÷ 1,291 kcal/min = 62 minutes or one hour would have been needed to get the muffles back into thermal shape for the next load. The Topf design for the triple and eight muffle furnaces were inadequate for multiple cremation. Three corpses in one muffle would have caused an obstruction of the gasifier gas flow through the three openings which connected the lateral muffles to the central muffle in the triple muffle furnace or those linking the inner to the outer muffles in the 8 muffle ovens. "Corpses placed on the refractory grate of the central muffle in the triple muffle furnace or on that of the lateral muffles of the 8 muffle furnace would have, moreover, plugged the slots between the grate bars and eventually kept the combustion gases from reaching the flue ducts. This would have led to a decrease in the heat supply to the muffle." (p.322). 9.2.5
is called "Thermal Overload during Main Combustion." Carlo gives out more calculations but based on what we have already seen, we can still appreciate his closing comments to the entirely of section 9.2.
"If hypothetically speaking, the cremation of two corpses had taken place within only one hour, with a main combustion phase of one half-hour, then the maximum amount of heat so generated during the main combustion phase would have been (141,200 X 2 =) 282,400 kcal m-3 hr-1 or nearly twice the permissible thermal load. This would have inevitably damaged the furnaces in the long run."
That's enough for today. Section 9.3 deals with the Soviet and Polish "scientific" findings of the capabilities of these ovens. I will summarize them later...
The red part is key because it shows that increasing the load by adding one child corpse does not help with concurrent cremations. It increases the time. This is physics at work. You can not deny physical laws. If one child corpse is going to increase the time, then 3 adult corpses most certainly will. We don't need to conduct an experiment with 4 corpses in one muffle to see if Tauber was correct. This is a lie. It is a false premise. But Nessie always repeats it and repeats it pretending it is true. By seeing what an oven can do, we establish what it can not do. If someone tried to jump in the air higher than five feet, and they tried many times and only got as high as five feet one inch at one point, we would not be so stupid as to say well we need another experiment to see if he can jump six feet because someone is claiming he can. NO! We have ALREADY ESTABLISHED THE LIMITATIONS. So saying we need another experiment is to say we have NOT established limitations, when we clearly have. He has repeated this false premise for weeks.
At one point he tried a diversion by accusing me of comparing apples and oranges. Basically his argument was well at Westerbork, the cremation of a single adult corpse took 50 minutes. Which means it by then it was pure ash and no bone remains left over. At Auschwitz, they just waited for the remains to fall through the grates to add more corpses. Nessie's "aha gotcha" argument failed for the following reasons. By taking Westerbork into consideration, Nessie has to rewind the clock back to 30 minutes on this one adult body and he has either two choices. By 30 minutes the corpse can NOT be destroyed enough to fall through a grate, or it CAN be destroyed enough to fall through a grate. Given his insistence that Tauber is correct about 4 corpses being destroyed that much in 30 minutes in one muffle at Auschwitz, Nessie has to take the path of LEAST RESISTANCE and say that in Westerbork by 30 minutes, the corpse COULD fall through the grate. Because if it can't, then there is no way you're going to get 4 adult corpses to do that. Nessie has no choice but to LEVEL OUT Auschwitz and Westerbork for one body. And THIS rests on his premise that concurrent cremations are possible. That 2 or 3 or 4 bodies in one muffle will take the same amount of time as one corpse. And we already saw with Westerbork, that was not possible. If one child corpse increases the load and increases the time, then an extra 3 adult corpses most certainly would. As we can see, his whole dichotomy of pure ash versus ash and bone fragments went nowhere because in Westerbork, one child and one adult taking longer than one adult PROVES that if we took both scenarios and put the clock at 30 minutes into the cremations, there would be more "stuff" to get rid of in the child plus adult cremation versus just one adult. Again, increase the load, increase the time necessary to destroy it. This is a physical law that Nessie magically says is suspended when you add 3 corpses instead of just one and these are all adult corpses instead of just one extra child corpse.
I also got away for too long posting this pic of him many times before I finally got a temporary 6 hour ban.
I called Nessie a liar and a troll so many times that he eventually left in a huff and went to the skeptics forum. I showed him clips of PM's I got from moderators of this other board I am on and the messages confirmed they also view Nessie as a troll. Here is what I received from an unidentifiable source via PM.
Nessie is a troll, it is best to ignore him.
They know what he's doing. We can all see it. Here's another one.
I am unwilling to ban him because we need some opposition here
In other words, Nessie would have been banned long ago.
More recently, now that Nessie has been cornered on his absurdity, he claims he never said or implied anywhere that concurrent cremations were possible. He engages in the bait and switch.
I did not say concurrent cremations work the same as a single body, Werd is lying about that. Of course they will take different times and more bodies together will take longer.
We saw Nessie claim one body will take 30 minutes in Auschwitz. That was back in last August. "I suspect 20 minutes is a witness exaggeration and would go to 30 minutes, which is 24 in 12 hours."
One corpse in 30 minutes.
Werd admits that after 30 minutes the bodies would have been cremated enough more bodies could be answered. He has admitted Tauber and other eye witnesses are correct.
Tauber is correct. 4 corpses in 30 minutes.
30 minutes is the SAME TIME he gave to JUST ONE CORPSE back in last August. Nessie DID IN FACT SAY WITH OTHER WORDS/IMPLY that one body can be done in 30 minutes and that 4 bodies can also be done in 30 minutes.
So Nessie's opening phrase: "I did not say concurrent cremations work the same as a single body, Werd is lying about that."
is the real lie here.