Debate extracts with believer Nessie over Auschwitz crematoria

Read and post various viewpoints or search our large archives.

Moderator: Moderator

Forum rules
Be sure to read the Rules/guidelines before you post!
Werd
Valuable asset
Valuable asset
Posts: 1106
Joined: Sat May 28, 2011 2:23 am

Debate extracts with believer Nessie over Auschwitz crematoria

Postby Werd » 3 years 1 month ago (Mon Feb 13, 2017 9:56 pm)

What follows are selection quotations. Of course I am only going to quote my relevant posts. Don't worry. They have quote tags from Nessie's essential points in them so nobody can accuse me of quote mining him or taking things out of context as his ridiculous words speak for themselves.


Werd wrote:
Nessie wrote:I can hypothesis as well and say that the motor pool had unrecorded extra activity for a secret action.

Do I detect the classic argument from a negative? Yep. Let's look at the muffles of each Krema.

https://www.stormfront.org/forum/t694617/
An important data source is a chapter from Germar Rudolf's book "Dissecting the Holocaust". This chapter "The crematoria ovens of Auschwitz and Birkenau" starts on page 373 and was written by (guest star) Carlo Mattogno.

Auschwitz-Birkenau had 4 crematoria: Krema II-III-IV-V. (Krema I was a relatively small installation in Auschwitz I which was not an alleged extermination camp. When the other Kremas came into operation, Krema I was shut down).

Capacity:
Krema II had 5 ovens with each 3 muffles. In operation: 166 days in 1943 and 266 days in 1944.
Total: 432 (days) x 15 (muffles) = 6,480 cremation days of 1 muffle.

Krema III also had 5 ovens of each 3 muffles. In operation: 190 days in 1943 and 266 days in 1944.
Total: 456 (days) x 15 (muffles) = 6,840 cremation days of 1 muffle.

Krema IV had 2 ovens of each 4 muffles. In operation: only 50 days in 1943 then it suffered damage beyond repair and was not used any longer.
Total: 50 (days) x 8 (muffles) = 400 cremation days of 1 muffle.

Krema V also had 2 ovens of 4 muffles. In operation: 82 days in 1943 and 144 days in 1944/45.
Total: 226 (days x 8 (muffles) = 1,808 cremation days of 1 muffle.
__________________________________________________ ______________________________________________
Grand total of one day operations of 1 muffle:
6,480 + 6,840 + 50 + 1,808 = 15,528 cremation days of 1 muffle.

The ovens were not operated longer than 12 hours a day (even no longer than 9 hours a day, according to certain established historians).
To burn one corpse would take at least one hour with this equipment, hence the maximum would have been close to 12 corpses a day.
Sometimes two corpses would fit in one muffle, but only two very light ones, e.g. two 75 lb corpses or two children. But because a double load lengthens the cremation time and because single loads were standard, I estimate the maximum capacity to be definitely not larger than 1.2 corpses per hour.

The maximum number of corpses that could possibly have been cremated:
With 10 corpses a day per muffle the maximum number would have been...155,280
With 12 corpses a day per muffle (1/hr)............................................... ....186,336
With 14.4 corpses a day per muffle (1.2/hr)...............................................223,603

These figures are not an indication of how many were actually cremated, but are estimates of how many could possibly have been cremated.
The Truth cannot be far away from these figures; actually an estimate of 14 corpses a day per muffle is almost unrealistically high, particularly as a standard for all cremation days. E.g. sometimes the ovens were in operation for less than 12 hrs/day, sometimes there was a temporary fuel shortage or a few muffles temporarily out of order etc.

Multi-million figures provided by the Holyhoax mafia are totally nonsensical and are claimed only for extortion purposes.
Nizkor claims a capacity of 1,7 million cremations for Krema II and III alone. A Biblical Miracle!


https://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=10214
Hannover wrote:Been there, done that.
In the session of 5th March 1946 the Soviet interrogator wanted to know:[27]

"How many bodies were cremated per hour at Auschwitz?"

Prüfer (builder of the crematorium) responded:
"In a crematory with 5 ovens and 15 muffles, fifteen bodies were cremated."
This means an average cremation time of one hour per body per muffle and indicates that the theoretical maximum capacity of Crematory IV (and each of the ovens of Crematory V as well) in a 24 hour period was 192 bodies.

At his interrogation on 19th March 1946 Prüfer elaborated as follows:[28]

"I have mentioned the enormous load to which the overtaxed ovens were subjected. I told Chief Engineer Sander I was worried about whether the ovens could withstand the excessive load. In my presence, two bodies were placed in one muffle, instead of a single body, and the ovens were unable to handle the load"

and:
SS Kurt Prufer, told the officers of SMERSCH (according to documents found in the Moscow archives) that only one body at a time could be cremated per muffle and that the cremation time took 60 minutes, and that they tried to cremate 2 bodies at a time; but the temperature inside the muffle went so high that it damaged the oven.
and:
- There was a total 52 muffles of Auschwitz, never used simultaneously.

- 38 is the most that were ever online simultaneously.

- The 6 at Auschwitz I were taken out of action as soon as the new ones at Birkenau came online. These were in turn liable to long periods of breakdowns and even idleness.

- If there was a program of mass extermination, the desperate need for cremation capacity is obvious. Why then put six muffles out of action?

- In August 1942, at the main camp, 9000 prisoners died. According to Believer & profiteer John Zimmerman, Auschwitz I would have had a cremation capacity of about 4,680 per month (26 per muffle daily on average, as at Gusen).
So the cremation capacity was about half of what it needed to be during the typhus epidemic.
At the same time, the camp was planned to hold an eventual inmate population of 200,000 (a seven-fold increase from August 1942, at less than 30,000).
Therefore, in August 1942, the very month that 'Auschwitz expert' van Pelt claims the homicidal adaptation of the crematoria was initiated, the Auschwitz Bauleitung authorities should have requested a crematoria construction program which should have produced capacities almost 14 times greater than the 6 muffles of Auschwitz I at the time. In 1943, when the camp population reached about 140,000, the number of muffles was just over 6 times greater than August 1942, because Crematorium IV broke down and was not repaired (mothballed) and Crematorium I at the main camp was converted into an air-raid shelter. There were 38 muffles.

- Why use exactly the same cremation techniques as in normal concentration camps, installing coke-fired ovens, even by the thirties a crude and primitive solution? More efficient gas-fired and electrical crematoria had by this time already been used for years in many countries, including my own. For the purpose the SS should naturally have sought out the most efficient answer they were able to find.

- If the extermination myth was true, the SS must from the start have had some idea of how many victims were to be gassed and burned. It's a simple matter of math, and then naturally founded on estimates made by the constructors, in this case Topf & Söhne. Why then not build the installations required. It doesn't make sense.

- There are no human remains to support the storyline.

More to follow.

Hannover

hermod wrote:Unexpected backlash: Why did an alleged death camp supposedly able to murder 6,000 people each day* have crematories able to incinerate only 1,250 corpses each day - i.e. around one fifth of the number of people allegedly butchered there - at best**? And what did the administrators of the camp do with the very numerous corpses left non-cremated days after days? That made 4,750 corpses left non-cremated after one day (6,000 minus 1,250), 9,500 after two days, 14,250 after three days, 19,000 after four days, and so on. What did the Germans do with the alleged 33,250 corpses (!!) left non-cremated at Auschwitz-Birkenau every week? And cremation pits can't save the day because in the real world you just cannot cremate human corpses in a low-oxygen environment such as a hole, especially in a swamp like Auschwitz.

As you can see, from this perspective, there was nothing genocidal or surprising in building up such crematory facilities at Auschwitz-Birkenau. A crematory capacity of 1,250 corpses per day, and probably even half of that in reality (with cremations during 12 hours a day and cremation times a little longer than one hour), was something normal for a camp having gone through typhus epidemics with 500 dead every day in the past and planned to grow to 200,000 inmates in a near future.

* United States Holocaust Memorial Museum:
During the deportation of Hungarian Jews in the spring of 1944, Auschwitz-Birkenau reached peak killing capacity: the SS gassed as many as 6,000 Jews each day.

http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php ... d=10007327


** Very optimistic estimate assuming that all the ovens worked nonstop 24/7, without any cooling and heating slowdowns at all, and that only one hour was needed to fully cremate one corpse.

52 mufles X 24 hours = 1,248 corpses cremated at best

Breakdowns of the crematoria further complicate things for Nessie's pretense that the ovens were working perfectly day after day after day which was not the case.
Werd wrote:Other documents show that during the entire period of the deportation of Hungarian Jews to Auschwitz, the crematoria of Birkenau, far from being in operation 24 hours a day as the witnesses have declared, were again and again under repair...

The evidence for that...Nessie admittedly dodged it.
Nessie wrote:I have deleted the rest because...

Ignore what doesn't fit. Just to piss Nessie off, I'm going to post it again.
Werd wrote:Other documents show that during the entire period of the deportation of Hungarian Jews to Auschwitz, the crematoria of Birkenau, far from being in operation 24 hours a day as the witnesses have declared, were again and again under repair.

As early as May 4, 1944, the head of construction of the Birkenau camp asked the local Kommandantur for a “Bescheinigung auf der Ausweiskarte” (entry on the ID card) for the civilian employee Jährling, giving the following reason: 252

"[Civilian employee] Jährling has to do mounting supervisions in sections I, II, and III. Besides, Jährling has been charged with the supervision of repair works in the crematoria.”

On May 9, the head of construction submitted to the Kommandantur of concentration camp II another request for “permission of access to crematoria I-IV,” worded as follows: 253

“This office requests permission of access to be granted for the ID cards joined, as the Koehler Co. has been ordered to perform urgent repairs on the crematoria.”

On May 13, the head of construction requested a specific permit for a bricklayer of the Koehler Co., giving the following reason:254

“The bricklayer Apolinary Golinski, born Aug. 5, 1904, has been ordered by the Koehler Co. to perform repairs on the crematoria. We request to endorse his temporary ID card with a permit to enter same.”

The Koehler Co. had built the chimneys and the flues of the crematoria, hence in early May of 1944 all four Birkenau crematoria showed brickwork damage on these structures. But at the time, the cremation ovens, too, were damaged, as results from the following work list of the inmate locksmith workshop:255


–“Apr. 13, 1944. No. 1483. Crematory administration. Object: Repair of 20 oven doors a. 10. scrapers in crematories I and II [...]. Finished: Oct. 17, 1944.”

–“June 1, 1944. No. 1600. Crematory administration. Object: Repair of 30 oven doors in crematoria III and IV, as well as supply of 4 pcs. fire hooks [...]. Finished: June 7, 1944.”

–“June 7, 1944. No. 1617. Crematory administration. Object: Daily repairs on crematoria 1 – 4 from June 3 – July 20, 1944. Finished: July 4, 1944” 256


Order no. 1617 refers to the request by SS garrison administration no. 337/4 of May 31, 1944, which means that the damages to be repaired had been observed prior to that date.

Hence, these documents prove that on May 31, 1944, the four Birkenau crematoria were under repair, and that explains why they do not emit any smoke on the corresponding photographs.

The photograph taken on August 20 is particularly important because it does show smoke, both from the chimney of crematorium III and in the north yard of crematorium V. On that day, according to D. Czech’s Kalendarium, no homicidal gassing was implemented,257 and the outdoor fire could thus not have any criminal character. Moreover, if the Birkenau crematoria were all four in an operational state, what need was there for an outdoor cremation?

We must furthermore remember that the actual order of magnitude of the outdoor cremations visible on these air photos was about 60-70 corpses per day, a figure that is absolutely out of balance with the story of alleged mass cremations. As we saw in the beginning, F. Piper claims that in the summer of 1944 about 20,000 Jews were gassed each day, with 10,000 of their corpses being cremated in the crematoria and the other 10,000 in the cremation trenches!

Accusations of snapshots are perfect excuses for why several photos spread out over May and June don't capture mass burnings and huge pits outside of Bunker 2. Did the huge pits that witnesses describe just disappear and reappear in between photos? Because they are not even in the photographs. That's the whole point! Ad hocs about how the photographs were taken on the wrong days simply don't cut it. It's all Nessie has so he can recycle his ad hoc in the fact of the success of revisionists proving a negative.


Werd wrote:
Nessie wrote:Which krema was totally out of commission by 1943 and not working even in 1944, as you claim?

Nessie can not read.
https://www.stormfront.org/forum/t694617/

An important data source is a chapter from Germar Rudolf's book "Dissecting the Holocaust". This chapter "The crematoria ovens of Auschwitz and Birkenau" starts on page 373 and was written by (guest star) Carlo Mattogno.

Here is the article from Mattogno. Now Nessie can stop pretending he does not know what or where the Stormfront post was based on:
Capacity:
Krema II had 5 ovens with each 3 muffles. In operation: 166 days in 1943 and 266 days in 1944.
Total: 432 (days) x 15 (muffles) = 6,480 cremation days of 1 muffle.

Krema III also had 5 ovens of each 3 muffles. In operation: 190 days in 1943 and 266 days in 1944.
Total: 456 (days) x 15 (muffles) = 6,840 cremation days of 1 muffle.

Krema IV had 2 ovens of each 4 muffles. In operation: only 50 days in 1943 then it suffered damage beyond repair and was not used any longer.
Total: 50 (days) x 8 (muffles) = 400 cremation days of 1 muffle.

Krema V also had 2 ovens of 4 muffles. In operation: 82 days in 1943 and 144 days in 1944/45.
Total: 226 (days x 8 (muffles) = 1,808 cremation days of 1 muffle.

Next:
Nessie wrote: the 33% extra he ignores is applicable every minute the kremas functioned.

Applicable. Possible. But did it occur? As I said before, "there is no proof they were running 12 hours a day and thus your mathematical constant of an extra all around 33% is not a guarantee. And you also can't prove that every 45 minutes they opened up every muffle, pushed the first corpse down through the grid and added another. Any testimonies to that from Nazi or Jew (not that you ever needed holocaust testimony to believe in something. I.E. Jews digging pits in Treblinka)? Or are you ignoring the uncomfortable nuances and mitigating factors that destroy your scenario of constants/averages? Clearly the latter."
It's a real shame that Nessie is stuck on repeat pretending his averages are always constant when we know that was impossible.
Werd wrote:sometimes EVEN LESS THAN 12 [hours]. 9 or 10 according to some sources. With 9 and not 12, there goes his precious extra third! Also, many of them not working at all for a few days due to repairs before and during the influx of the Hungarians. So that means more have to be cremated outdoors in May and June that we do not see.

A lack of crematoria that may not have been functioning at full corpse throughput every 45 minutes, plus available crematoria that was BROKEN DOWN and needed repairs during the Hungarian influx, WHEN THEY NEEDED THEM WORKING AT FULL SPEED THE MOST, means more corpses to burn outdoors. Photos don't show it. Didn't happen. Revisionists have proven a negative (what did not happen).


Werd wrote:
Nessie wrote:
Werd wrote:broken down crematoria

You cannot evidence that

Nessie once again dodges the documentary evidence cited by mattogno of problematic crematoria that were obviously not working at full corpse throughput. It's in the first post of mine. I said I was gonna post it again just to piss Nessie off. Clearly it has pissed him off. :lol:
Nessie wrote:You have had to conceded that there is evidence of outdoor cremations to back up the witnesses

To repeat myself from long ago, nobody denies cremations happened outdoors. The MAGNITUDE is what is important. Not the mere fact they occurred. Stop shifting the goal posts.
Nessie wrote:rare occasions show outdoor cremations taking place.

You said it not me. :lol: Which is why the problem still exists for you I outlined before. Broken, only partially operable crematoria, means we should see more outdoor activity. We don't. Besides that one photo you posted is so lousy I see no reason to believe that is one wisp of smoke coming from the area of Bunker 2. Mattogno, Rudolf, Graf, Ball and others didn't mention smoke outside Bunker 2, yet they admit a wisp of smoke near Krema V. What is going on? Probably a deliberately mislabeled photo.
But in May 1944 only 981 deaths were recorded for Auschwitz from typhus. That is the lowest monthly total until the very last couple of months the camp was open.

http://www.heretical.com/miscella/rudolf.html

I knew you were going to being this up as a distraction. Inoperable crematoria still means we should see more cremations outdoors in May to dispose of THE HUNGARIANS. NOT JUST THE SICK AND ILL. Nice try. :D


Werd wrote:
Nessie wrote:You chopped quotes, lied and misrepresented me, yet again. Then you have to make out you were actually saying something else. You have been forced to change what you have been claiming in this thread of some time now;

no outdoor cremations, witnesses as liars and proving a negative.

Did I explicitly say in that post there were no outdoor cremations? Or even no photographic evidence of outdoor cremations? Let's examine my post:
Werd wrote:He hates the fact that the photographs do not show what they should. The revisionists have successfully proven a negative. They have shown what did not happen.

Photographs do not show what they should is very general, vague phraseology. It could mean no smoke or too little smoke. It never specifies. So therefore I did not explicitly say that there were no outdoor cremations like you are trying to claim I have claimed. You suck at reading.
Nessie wrote:Outdoor cremations which would not have been necessary with the capacity of the functioning Kremas and the low death rate in May 1944 as recorded by the Nazis
http://www.heretical.com/miscella/rudolf.html

Now you are back to denying the non functioning of the kremas? Brilliant flip flop there as I illustrated earlier.
Werd wrote:
Nessie wrote:I was not saying you cannot evidence broken down crematorium, you are such a terrible liar. I was pointing out that you cannot evidence your claim

:roll:
Broken down crematoria was part of my claim. And you denied it could be proven. Now that you are apparently flip flopping and admitting it was the case due to all those cited documents Mattogno found, that not only means you were wrong to dodge/deny it before, but it also does mean exactly what I said it meant: If the Kremas at full capacity were not built for extermination but for dealing with death and sickness causing death, and during May and June they were often broken down and in need of repair, then that logically means that the outdoor cremations prove nothing sinister since they were just doing the regular job that the kremas could not at that point in 1944. Deductive logic.


Werd wrote:
Nessie wrote:Werd has been forced to admit that of the very few aerial photos that were taken over Birkenau July to June 1944, there are signs of activity about Bunker 2 and smoke.

I was talking about your May 31st photo allegedly showing one wisp of smoke near Bunker 2 and I questioned that interpretation. Again, you suck at reading. As for this photo with french labels, all we have is the locations given of each Bunker. There is no visible smoke and no date on this photo. Also,
Werd wrote:As for the photos of May 31, one can read sections 9.3 and 9.4 and 9.5 in The Bunkers of Auschwitz regarding the so called trenches. Oh and even the lack of undressing barracks. That's hilarious too.
http://vho.org/aaargh/fran/livres11/tboa.pdf
Last edited by Werd on Mon Feb 13, 2017 10:59 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Werd
Valuable asset
Valuable asset
Posts: 1106
Joined: Sat May 28, 2011 2:23 am

Re: Debate extracts with Nessie over Auschwitz crematoria

Postby Werd » 3 years 1 month ago (Mon Feb 13, 2017 10:00 pm)

Werd wrote:Nessie is shielding himself behind vague language.
Nessie wrote:Activity around Bunker 2 proven.
Outdoor cremations proven.

These are not in dispute. Only their magnitude and what it means for the official story. Not very good considering not only lack of a crematoria with 15 muffles by 1943, but also the remaining ones being damaged and in need of repair. It is also not successfully proven by Nessie the Germans had had every muffle door opened every 45 minutes to put a new body in for 12 hours a day, even though some say the ovens were running only 9 or 10 hours a day. And he wants to accuse others of not backing up what they say. He just plays with averages, assumes they are constant and then walks away.
Anyone can plug a number into an equation. So what? Even if the available kremas could dispose of the few sick people mentioned in that heretical.com link, we still have all these Hungarians to deal with to gas and burn. So there needs to be more activity outdoors. Yet we don't see it.

Nessie just can't cope with the following.

1. His original MISTAKEN assumption that all kremas were available in 1944.
2. His original MISTAKEN assumption that all kremas were working at full capacity in 1944 despite documentary evidence showing breakdowns and repairs in the key period.
3. His original MISTAKEN assumption that Mattogno was fudging figures regarding late May arrivals when he clearly was not.
4. His original MISTAKEN assumption that I said photos showed NO crematory activity at all despite me claiming numerous times it was not my argument.
5. His original UNPROVEN assertion that kremas were always running 12 hours a day despite some sources saying only 9 or 10 hence his magical increase of a constant extra 33% being cremated does not apply.
6. His original UNPROVEN assertion that therefore every 45 minutes, every muffle was opened and the first body raked through to the bottom to make room for a new one.
7. His one photo which claimed to show a wisp of smoke coming from the area of Bunker 2 is not really clear at all.

Werd wrote:Need I remind you of this from the 10th chapter I quoted from Mattogno a few pages back?
10.2. The Area of Crematorium V

With respect to the area of crematorium V, Mark van Alstine claims that the photographs of May 31 show the existence of three cremation trenches, each having a surface area of about 106.8 square meters. Carroll Lucas, on the other hand, has seen only a “thin smoke plume,” whereas R.J. van Pelt, M. Shermer, and A. Grobman have preferred to keep quiet about Nevin Bryant’s observations. The smoke plume is, in fact, visible, but the smoking area on the ground does not exceed 50 sqm and could not have accommodated more than about 60-70 corpses for cremation. 214 The smoke rises over roughly 7-8 linear meters near the (eastern) extremity of a dark rectangle some 25 meters long and 6 meters wide. 215

If, on the other hand, the gassing and the cremation of the Hungarian Jews were an actual fact, the air photos would have shown an inferno – with cremation trenches that burned continuously for 48 hours (H. Tauber), 24-48 hours (H. Mandelbaum) or 24 hours (Sz. Dragon) – described by the witness Otto Wolken 216 in the following terms: 217

"The 4 chimneys [218] of the crematoria belched smoke day and night, day and night the heavy smoke of the cremation trenches hung over the camp and at night the sky was tainted bright red.

In his famous “Chronicle” of the Birkenau camp, the witness adds: 219

“This was the time of the large Hungarian transports. The crematoria turned out to be too small for the incineration of so many thousands of people and two large pits were therefore excavated which allowed the simultaneous burning of 5000 and more corpses. The stifling smoke hung over the camp day and night. At night, the sky was colored dark red far and wide.”

This is in contradiction not only with the air photos, but also with the following statement by Rudolf Höss: 220

“On account of enemy air activity from 1944 on, burning at night was no longer allowed.”

This decree had come into force already in December of 1943. In the Standortbefehl
(garrison order) Nr. 55/43 dated December 15, 1943, the camp commander at the time, SS-Obersturmbannführer Liebehenschel, specified: 221

“Blackout. On the basis of the strengthening of air-defense measures for the Auschwitz area, immediate total blackout is hereby ordered.”

There is this from me a few pages back.
Werd wrote:One may want to check the following section in Mattogno's book.
[...]
We can also see Tauber, a clear liar about being sonderkommando or at least the throughput capacities of the Auschwitz ovens, be shown to be a willful liar and exaggerator in section 6.1. Witnesses Who Stayed Behind at Auschwitz.

And another blast from the past.
"However, according to SonderKommando Feinsilber, the camp authorities reccomended that the incineration time be reduced to 20 minutes and the number of bodies, depending on size, increased to three. [3] Tauber said that the incineration time was 30 minutes and 3 bodies. Ho"ss contended that the incineration time was 20 minutes with alternating loads of 3 then 2 bodies. This would give a total capacities of 6,624 (Tauber), 8,280 (Ho"ss), and 9,936 (Feinsilber) for Kremas II-V. Ho"ss, however, also wrote that a total of 7,000 bodies were cremated every 24 hours.[4]"
- C. Mattogno

Finally.
Werd wrote:I recommend people also consult section 10.2.5. Loading the Muffles and Duration of the Cremation in THE CASE FOR SANITY to see what a liar and fraud Tauber was regarding corpse disposal in Auschwitz ovens.

Next.
Nessie wrote:Listen to the witnesses and bodies being cremated in far shorter times, something which has not been tested so you have no right to say it was not possible

Like when they say a body could be cremated in 15 or 20 minutes in a crematory oven? Sorry we KNOW that is not possible because more modern high tech ovens can't even destroy a body until around double that time. Therefore YOU HAVE NO BUSINESS saying we can't be incredulous about such a claim. :lol:

Stop trolling. Go play in the traffic.

Werd wrote:
Nessie wrote:Yet more lies, I have never said it takes 40 minutes to cremate a coffin. I have said that the hours in a modern retort is the body AND the coffin. They burn at the same time, not one after the other.

Concurrent, not consecutive. Hence an additional coffin does not really hamper the cremation process significantly. Next issue.
Nessie wrote:(which Mattogno ignores even though it is the proper figure to use as those crematoriums were designed to cremate two bodies at a time).

Not only is that wrong from a design point, that is not what happened when the Nazis used them. Those muffles in Birkenau were designed for only one body at a time and that is all the Nazis ever put into them. We have been over this.
Nessie wrote:I also reported that according to witnesses it could take as little as 20 minutes.

Nessie wrote:I suspect that the answer is between 20 and 40 minutes because witnesses exaggerate and the kremas were being maxed out.

Tauber who claims that 4 bodies could be destroyed in 20-30 minutes is completely full of shit and you know it.
Furthermore, saying the kremas were maxed out is a lie. You keep dodging the fact shown here at the top that one of the kremas would totally out of commission by 1943 never to be used in 1944. And you also ignore the fact that many repairs to damage was going on during the time the Hungarians were there. Mattogno went over the documentary evidence proving this in his tenth chapter I quoted pages back. There were no 'maxed out' kremas like you are deliberately lying about.

Werd wrote:
Nessie wrote:Until you evidence it was not possible

Argument from a negative. See what that is here.
Nessie wrote:or there were mass transits back out of the camp

Non ability to prove transits in the number you deduced from Mattogno, does not prove they were gassed. Deductively speaking, It is still logically possible to prove a negative that they were not gassed and burned in places X and Y but we still can't track their every movement. This negative has been proven due to lack of appearance of masses of Jews in the aerial photos outside the Bunkers and also because of the breakdowns and repairs in the available Birkenau muffles that prevented them from working as much as your theory demands in May and June. As I have said before, "you don't have to know where someone is now, to prove there was a place they were not BEFORE"
Last edited by Werd on Mon Feb 13, 2017 11:02 pm, edited 3 times in total.

Werd
Valuable asset
Valuable asset
Posts: 1106
Joined: Sat May 28, 2011 2:23 am

Re: Debate extracts with Nessie over Auschwitz crematoria

Postby Werd » 3 years 1 month ago (Mon Feb 13, 2017 10:02 pm)

Werd wrote:
Nessie wrote:I can prove the narrative of they were killed is correct.

Nessie wrote:With regards to cremations at the camp, speculating it is was not possible to cremate over 260,000 is not sufficient to evidence it was not possible.

Stating that a body can not be destroyed in 20 minutes in an oven in Birkenau (which lost an entire 15 oven krematoria by 1944, whose ovens were in need of repair during the critical Hungarian period, whose muffles could only be loaded with one corpse, and which never ran more than 10 hours a day) is now speculation. Good god! :lol:

Read the first section. Learn a thing or two.
http://holocausthandbooks.com/index.php?page_id=25

Werd wrote:
Nessie wrote:Is the "45-60 minutes" with or without a coffin?

Stop being stupid. Recall what happened in Birkenau. No nazis ever put coffins in with the corpses. Read the Topf and Shonne literature. They rarely speak of introducing a coffin. Their figures of 40-60 minutes per corpse is per corpse only. You'd know that if you bothered to read that first section from Mattogno like I instructed. Hell, even the Mattogno article here with extensive references shows there is no talk of adding coffins. Only cadavers.
NEssie wrote:You need to evidence it was not possible

Argument from a negative, again!
Nessie wrote:
Werd wrote:The whole, "I can't find where the Jews went, therefore a body can be burned away in 20 minutes" argument is a non sequitor.

That is not my argument,

Yes it is because you just argued from a negative saying I need to prove it is impossible. Which means you believe it is possible. Let's recall your own words.
Nessie wrote:You cannot evidence them leaving or appearing anywhere else in the camp system. they did not return to Hungary.

The reason you keep trying to justify 20 minutes per body is to try and make it seem like the available Birkenau crematoria could in fact get the job done in May, June and July. So BECAUSE you claim you can't find where the Jews in large numbers went, your only option to keep your narrative alive is to have scientifically impossible short cremation times per body per muffle. I did indeed pin down your argument correctly.

You're right, been-there. Nessie suspends the laws of nature regarding what it takes to cremate a body and demands I prove the opposite, whilst ignoring what cremation technology experts have told us about destroying a body. This thread has become redundant. Much like his argument from negative fallacies he keeps repeating.

Werd wrote:
Nessie wrote:I want evidence for you to back up your claim they are destroyed almost immediately.

Nessie wrote:Adding a coffin will impact on times

Nessie once again ignores what the German experts say on the matter. It's all there for him. I told him I wasn't going to spoon feed him. "The coffin was destroyed almost immediately due to the high temperature achieved in the oven before loading the muffle. See section 3.4 Hence it's not really factor like you are pretending it is or could be due to your trolling/ignorance/refusal to read."
Now here's an interesting exchange that is summarized.
Nessie wrote:He needs to evidence it is possible to burn a body away in 20 minutes in a crematoria oven.

Nessie wrote:You need to evidence it was not possible

Werd wrote:Argument from a negative

Nessie wrote:Stop thinking up excuses to not evidence your beliefs.

Werd wrote:Nessie now asks for the right to use fallacies by special pleading.

Nessie wrote:It is not special pleading, I have shown you what evidence you need to prove your claim

Whereas Nessie doesn't need evidence to prove his claim about how fast one can destroy a body in a coke fired oven from Germany in the 1930's. He just needs to doubt the German cremation expert literature, fallaciously argue from a negative and demand I can prove it can't be done. Nessie's position is always the default position. His demand that we operate from such double standards qualifies as special pleading. Stupid and a liar.
Nessie wrote:All I have done is reduce from 40 minutes to 30 before another body is introduced

Correction. The Topf and Sone minimum is 45. Therefore, your reduction of 15 minutes in corpse only cremations is based on ABSOLUTELY NOTHING since the German technical literature indicates 45-60 minutes per body per muffle. If I doubt Nessie's new figures and demand evidence, Nessie switches gears and argues from a negative to save his ass from having to prove his assertions. Any jump to a fallacy like that in the face of a challenge for evidence shows exactly that he has no proof. If he did, he would offer it. :D
Nessie wrote:and pointed out with no coffins and no need to fully cremate the body to ash the length of time can be reduced from the experts.

Nessie is now pretending adding a coffin to a 1930's coke fired oven is a significant hamper in the cremating process when I showed where it was not. I guess I will have to spoon feed him, but also the other readers on this board to expose Nessie's deception and trickery.
3.4. Structure and Operation of coke-fired cremation ovens of the 1930s

This type of furnace consisted of a gas generator, an incineration room or muffle, a post-combustion chamber below it, and a recuperator thereafter. The gas generator, lined with refractory material, had the usual grill for the coke and openings to regulate air intake and to remove ashes and cinders. A vertical or oblique channel conducted the combustion gases into the muffle. As a result of lack of oxygen, the coke burnt only partly in the gas generator, producing carbon monoxide rich gases which were led into the muffle, where it burnt with additional pre-heated air coming in from the recuperator.

The muffle was a horizontal combustion chamber lined with refractory material. The German "Norms for the construction and operation of furnaces for the cremation of human corpse" enacted in 1937 prescribed the following minimal measures for such a muffle: width: 900 millimeter; height: 900 millimeter; length: 2500 millimeter.[52]

At the front, the muffle was closed with a guillotine-like shutter made of fireclay. In front of this shutter was an outer metal door. The bottom of the muffle consisted of a grill made of fireclay, on which the coffin was placed. The remains of the body fell through the refractory grilles into the post-combustion chamber with slanted walls narrowing down to a small cavity in which the container for the ashes was placed.

Openings in the post-combustion chamber led the combustion gases into the recuperator, which is a heat exchanger consisting of intertwined, counter-current fresh-air intake and exhaust gas exit channels. As a result of this heat exchange, the recuperator had temperatures between 400 and 600°C. The oven was a two-level structure: the gas generator and recuperator were at a lower level, while the incineration chamber was at an upper level.

The operation of this system was as follows: First, the shutter of the smoke flue was opened. Then, the coke fire in the generator was lit with the help of some wood. As soon as the combustion gases burning in the muffle had increased the temperature to an operational level, the introduction shutter was opened and the coffin was introduced in the muffle. Because of the high temperature of the muffle, the coffin caught fire already during the introduction. It burned quickly, leaving the corpse on the grill. First, the corpse dehydrated, then the combustible parts incinerated. The solid incineration products of the corpse fell into the post-combustion chamber and ultimately into the ash container, while the gaseous products moved into the side flues of the recuperator and down through them into the waste-gas flue, whence they rose up the stack. When the flame development had stopped, the incandescent ashes were scrapped into the ash container. The oven was operated with the help of various controls (fuel supply, recuperator and generator air intake, exhaust shutter).[53]

- C. Mattogno

Burned quickly? 10 minutes is not quickly. 10 minutes to break a part a coffin to expose the body and finish the job never happened. Nessie is wrong once again. He does not know what he is talking about.
Nessie wrote:I am so glad you have said "take the educated, skilled experts over you? Get real." Since the educated, skilled experts who have examined all of the evidence for what happened at Birkenau have concluded mass gassing, not mass transports back out, then you need to get real

Nessie shifts the context of my quote which was about why I will take the German cremation experts over him for his claim that one body could be destroyed in 30 minutes while they say it takes longer. And then he goes right back to the argument I accused him of making but he denies. We can't find where all the Jews went, therefore the Birkenau ovens could have in fact cremated one body per muffle in 20-30 minutes. Given this non sequitor, I guess it's obvious why he fallaciously argues from a negative as that above exchange shows. He thinks the evidence is already in that they went up in smoke. We can't find the Jews, they must have died. So he can manipulate the figures however he wants to turn these ovens into super ovens. :lol:

Werd wrote:
Nessie wrote:Maxed out means running at very high capacity.

I said give me a definition, not a synonym. Take a few sentences to explain what you really mean if necessary. Keep in mind it's hard to "max out" or have "high capacity" ovens when by 1944 an entire 15 muffles in one crematoria was gone due to severe damage and many were in need of repairs before and during the critical period of the Hungarian influx; and also with ovens running as little as 9 hours a day and no more than 12 sometimes.
Nessie wrote:I have explained to you that it is 40 minutes per body before another is introduced.

Correction: 45 minutes. Once again you are pretending this happened every time all the time with no evidence. So much for your "maxed out" hypothesis.
Nessie wrote:Take away not having to burn a coffin, not reducing the body to total ashes and running the retorts at a very high capacity, I can see how that they could have bodies being introduced every 30 minutes.

The 45 or 40 minute figure for burning a body in a coke fired oven in Birkenau does not factor in a coffin. The nazis did not use coffins and it did not take 10 minutes to destroy a coffin as Topf and Sonne clearly stated. Go back and read. Destruction of a coffin during their test runs was almost immediate due to the high temperature that was achieved. 10 minutes is not immediate or fast.
Nessie wrote:What is the time difference between burning a body in a coffin and on its own with no coffin?

Didn't you allegedly figure that one out yourself a while back? :lol:
Last edited by Werd on Mon Feb 13, 2017 11:06 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Werd
Valuable asset
Valuable asset
Posts: 1106
Joined: Sat May 28, 2011 2:23 am

Re: Debate extracts with believer Nessie over Auschwitz crematoria

Postby Werd » 2 years 2 weeks ago (Wed Mar 21, 2018 12:54 pm)

Here is a more recent debate I had with Nessie on another board. Let me summarize.

When it comes to Tauber's claim of 4 adult bodies being destroyed in one muffle in 30 minutes to the point of the remains falling through the grate and being able to add 4 more, Nessie believed it. I quoted many extracts from Mattogno's book THE CREMATION FURNACES OF AUSCHWITZ [ PDF ]. They contained cremation experiments from Germany and Italy as far back as the 1900's and right on up to the 1930's. Not even a coke fired furnace in Germany in the 1930's could process that many corpses. Nessie thought he would be clever and he cited a 28 June 1943 document from Mattogno on page 293 for cremation times that were short but still nowhere near what Tauber claimed. "On the basis of this document, the duration of one cremation was 25 minutes in the double muffle furnace and 15 minutes in the furnaces with three or eight muffles."

Mattogno later refuted that document in section 9.6 which runs from pages 341 to 344. Those documents were written by non experts and so full of errors they needed correcting. There was historical precedent for doing this as Mattogno has found many corrected documents making notes of errors in other ones. His examples from the Central Construction Office of Auschwitz archives are in footnotes 559 and 560.

https://s14.postimg.org/8hpoo27tt/mattogno_341.png
https://s14.postimg.org/gn7qm8ynl/mattogno342.png
https://s14.postimg.org/3vtkfr4b5/mattogno343.png
https://s14.postimg.org/9jzv6no35/mattogno344.png

Of course, Nessie just hand-waved them and ignored them. He also hand-waved and ignored my detailed summary of one section of Mattogno's book. 9.2.
Werd wrote:Section 9.2 has Mattogno saying that "we must examine whether...it would have been possible to raise the cremation capacity by increasing the load by introducing two or more corpses at once into the muffle." (p. 314). This 9.2 is then subdivided further.

9.2.1 discusses experiments with animal carcass incineration furnaces. First, an eight carcass destruction furnace from the Kori Co. is mentioned in Document 260 as well as further in the 9.2 section. Mattogno also talked about furnace model 1a and gave the following:
Mass of the brickwork in kg.
Hourly coke feed in kg.
Hearth efficiency (according to Keepke)
Lower heating value of hard coal given in kcal/kg
coal requires to heat brickwork from 20 degrees Celcius all the way to 800 degrees Ceclius.

When discussing the different models that were used to obtain data, models 2b and 4b, we see the results in a couple of tables composed by Mattogno. Basically, the heavier the load, the longer it takes the the more the coal is necessary to do away with the animal carcasses. What this means is "raising the thermal design limits of the Topf furnaces for an overloading of the muffles would not have led to any gain in productivity." (p. 316).

9.2.2 talks about experiences from the Westerbork crematoria. In the Westerbork crematorium, two corpses were never done simultaneously. Except for an adult and a small child. "During occasional cremations of one small child together with one adult corpse it had been observed that the small corpses had a significant effect on the cremation process, extending its average duration by 14% (50 minutes to 57 minutes) beyond the average cremation time of single adult corpses." (p. 316)

9.2.3 cites a February 1944 letter from Hans Kori to the Waffen SS and the Police PoW camp at Lubli-Majdanek. Part of the letter says:
For the fuel supply for a given heating period one may assume that for preheating the furnace 50kg of coke are required, in addition to 25kg of coke for each incineration. For 10 incinerations in one day, this leads to a total consumption of some 300kg. It is of no importance whether coke is used exclusively or a mixture of coke and hard coal is used. In the latter case, one would operate with a mixture of 150 kg [of coal] and 150 kg [of coke]. An equal amount of 300kg for one day would also allow 20 incinerations to be handled easily, if one abandons individual introductions.

25kg for one cremation falls in line with the consumption at Gusen. "The fact that the fuel requirements were calculated for 10 cremations in each muffle (or a total of 50 cremations per day) means that the duration of one cremation was at least one hour (2 hours of per-heating plus 10 hours of cremation = one operating day of 12 hours)." (p. 317) The reference to abandoning individual introductions and putting more than one corpse into the muffle to apparently save on fuel was discounted by Erich Mussfeldt, the man responsible for the crematorium in Lublin-Majdanek. At his trial he said one corpse, one muffle, one hour. Should we also believe that Kori would make a statement that would disagree with the experimental data obtained by furnaces that he himself designed? Kori also said that sometimes a certain problem will be encountered.
If on opening the hearth doors, a bright flame juts forth from the slots of the smoke dampers, this is caused by the pressure of false air. It is merely necessary to fill the unnecessarily wide air gaps next to the damper plates in order to prevent both cold air from entering the furnace and the appearance of such flames.

It had not been technically possible to manufacture refractory dampers which could be hermetically closed. Kori also said that if the temperature in the front part of the oven is not high enough for a rapid incineration, this would also be from the leakage of false air into the muffle. With false air lowering the temperature, introducing two corpses REALLY wouldn't make things better. These factors that would happen occasionally also mean that the letter above quoting all those numbers are just theory and not based on facts and factors. You can't say therefore that you can cremate two corpses in the same time it takes to cremate one. We saw that demonstrated in 9.2.1 regarding animal carcass incineration.

9.2.4 is called "Thermal Inadequacy during Water Evaporation." The average water content for a 70kg body is about 45 kg. When you break a body down, you have to evaporate the water content. Water. Steam. Things cool down for a bit. "In the evaporation phase, the most important heat losses were those by radiation and by conduction." (p.320). In the 1930's that was noted by Professor Schlapfer. He talked about how hot the walls would have to be in order to radiate a certain amount of heat continuously onto a corpse to destroy it. 800 degrees Celcius will yield 1,400 kcal/min. 700 degress is 930 kcal/min. 600 degress is 600 kcal/min and 500 degress is 360 kcal/min. Introducing more than one corpse will affect the heat to cargo ratio. That means the walls will cool with extra water vapour about to be dispersed. So how do we deal with this? Well we have to regain some thermal heat energy.
"The heat required to evaporate and superheat the water contained in two corpses, ca. 79,700 kcal, would become available only over a period of (79,700 kcal ÷ 600 kcal/min) some 130 minutes at a constant temperature of 600 degrees Celcius. However, the wall temperature of the muffle would not say constant for such a long time but would drop rather significantly."(p.321). Observe the numbers from Schlapfer. Regarding the Topf triple muffle furnace, the weight of the brickwork was 1,500 kg. To supply the heat that was lost during the evaporation of water from two corpses, "each muffle would have had to contribute 79,700 kcal, which would mean that the average wall temperature of the muffles would have had to drop by about 265 degrees Celcius." (p. 321). So if the muffle was at 800 degrees, introducing two corpses would drop it to around 535 degrees. One has to compensate for this heat loss. A period of preheating would be required. The heat supplied to each muffle of a Topf triple muffle was 1,291 kcal/min. Hence 79,700 kcal ÷ 1,291 kcal/min = 62 minutes or one hour would have been needed to get the muffles back into thermal shape for the next load. The Topf design for the triple and eight muffle furnaces were inadequate for multiple cremation. Three corpses in one muffle would have caused an obstruction of the gasifier gas flow through the three openings which connected the lateral muffles to the central muffle in the triple muffle furnace or those linking the inner to the outer muffles in the 8 muffle ovens. "Corpses placed on the refractory grate of the central muffle in the triple muffle furnace or on that of the lateral muffles of the 8 muffle furnace would have, moreover, plugged the slots between the grate bars and eventually kept the combustion gases from reaching the flue ducts. This would have led to a decrease in the heat supply to the muffle." (p.322).

9.2.5 is called "Thermal Overload during Main Combustion." Carlo gives out more calculations but based on what we have already seen, we can still appreciate his closing comments to the entirely of section 9.2. "If hypothetically speaking, the cremation of two corpses had taken place within only one hour, with a main combustion phase of one half-hour, then the maximum amount of heat so generated during the main combustion phase would have been (141,200 X 2 =) 282,400 kcal m-3 hr-1 or nearly twice the permissible thermal load. This would have inevitably damaged the furnaces in the long run."

That's enough for today. Section 9.3 deals with the Soviet and Polish "scientific" findings of the capabilities of these ovens. I will summarize them later...

The red part is key because it shows that increasing the load by adding one child corpse does not help with concurrent cremations. It increases the time. This is physics at work. You can not deny physical laws. If one child corpse is going to increase the time, then 3 adult corpses most certainly will. We don't need to conduct an experiment with 4 corpses in one muffle to see if Tauber was correct. This is a lie. It is a false premise. But Nessie always repeats it and repeats it pretending it is true. By seeing what an oven can do, we establish what it can not do. If someone tried to jump in the air higher than five feet, and they tried many times and only got as high as five feet one inch at one point, we would not be so stupid as to say well we need another experiment to see if he can jump six feet because someone is claiming he can. NO! We have ALREADY ESTABLISHED THE LIMITATIONS. So saying we need another experiment is to say we have NOT established limitations, when we clearly have. He has repeated this false premise for weeks.

At one point he tried a diversion by accusing me of comparing apples and oranges. Basically his argument was well at Westerbork, the cremation of a single adult corpse took 50 minutes. Which means it by then it was pure ash and no bone remains left over. At Auschwitz, they just waited for the remains to fall through the grates to add more corpses. Nessie's "aha gotcha" argument failed for the following reasons. By taking Westerbork into consideration, Nessie has to rewind the clock back to 30 minutes on this one adult body and he has either two choices. By 30 minutes the corpse can NOT be destroyed enough to fall through a grate, or it CAN be destroyed enough to fall through a grate. Given his insistence that Tauber is correct about 4 corpses being destroyed that much in 30 minutes in one muffle at Auschwitz, Nessie has to take the path of LEAST RESISTANCE and say that in Westerbork by 30 minutes, the corpse COULD fall through the grate. Because if it can't, then there is no way you're going to get 4 adult corpses to do that. Nessie has no choice but to LEVEL OUT Auschwitz and Westerbork for one body. And THIS rests on his premise that concurrent cremations are possible. That 2 or 3 or 4 bodies in one muffle will take the same amount of time as one corpse. And we already saw with Westerbork, that was not possible. If one child corpse increases the load and increases the time, then an extra 3 adult corpses most certainly would. As we can see, his whole dichotomy of pure ash versus ash and bone fragments went nowhere because in Westerbork, one child and one adult taking longer than one adult PROVES that if we took both scenarios and put the clock at 30 minutes into the cremations, there would be more "stuff" to get rid of in the child plus adult cremation versus just one adult. Again, increase the load, increase the time necessary to destroy it. This is a physical law that Nessie magically says is suspended when you add 3 corpses instead of just one and these are all adult corpses instead of just one extra child corpse.

I also got away for too long posting this pic of him many times before I finally got a temporary 6 hour ban.
Image
I called Nessie a liar and a troll so many times that he eventually left in a huff and went to the skeptics forum. I showed him clips of PM's I got from moderators of this other board I am on and the messages confirmed they also view Nessie as a troll. Here is what I received from an unidentifiable source via PM.
Nessie is a troll, it is best to ignore him.

They know what he's doing. We can all see it. Here's another one.
I am unwilling to ban him because we need some opposition here

In other words, Nessie would have been banned long ago.

More recently, now that Nessie has been cornered on his absurdity, he claims he never said or implied anywhere that concurrent cremations were possible. He engages in the bait and switch.
I did not say concurrent cremations work the same as a single body, Werd is lying about that. Of course they will take different times and more bodies together will take longer.

We saw Nessie claim one body will take 30 minutes in Auschwitz. That was back in last August.
"I suspect 20 minutes is a witness exaggeration and would go to 30 minutes, which is 24 in 12 hours."
One corpse in 30 minutes.
Werd admits that after 30 minutes the bodies would have been cremated enough more bodies could be answered. He has admitted Tauber and other eye witnesses are correct.

Tauber is correct. 4 corpses in 30 minutes.

30 minutes is the SAME TIME he gave to JUST ONE CORPSE back in last August. Nessie DID IN FACT SAY WITH OTHER WORDS/IMPLY that one body can be done in 30 minutes and that 4 bodies can also be done in 30 minutes.

So Nessie's opening phrase: "I did not say concurrent cremations work the same as a single body, Werd is lying about that." is the real lie here. :lol:

Werd
Valuable asset
Valuable asset
Posts: 1106
Joined: Sat May 28, 2011 2:23 am

Re: Debate extracts with believer Nessie over Auschwitz crematoria

Postby Werd » 2 years 2 weeks ago (Wed Mar 21, 2018 1:00 pm)

If he would just behave with some class, treat the debate with respect, stop lying about what he said in the past, and stop not explaining why physical laws established at Westerbork don't apply to Auschwitz, then I would not abuse him and attack him personally with the moderators stepping back and not even slapping me on the wrist; due to them seeing his trolling and lying nature as well.

User avatar
Hannover
Valuable asset
Valuable asset
Posts: 10002
Joined: Sun Nov 24, 2002 7:53 pm

Re: Debate extracts with believer Nessie over Auschwitz crematoria

Postby Hannover » 2 years 2 weeks ago (Wed Mar 21, 2018 6:51 pm)

Werd, spotlighting this Nessie character is quite appropriate.

He represents the crazed religious, irrational, illogical, and anti-science nature of those that market & profit from what is probably the biggest scam in history.
The things that these guys have the nerve / chutzpah to say is truly incredible.

Thankfully there is now awareness, resistance, and debunking aplenty staring them in the face.

- Hannover

Revisionists are just the messengers, the absurd impossibility of the 'holocaust' storyline is the message.

Here's a bunch more on "Holocau$t Industry" representative, Nessie:

Nessie's' SIX 'proofs' of the 'holocaust' storyline
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=11060

the usual big bluff / True Believer 'Nessie' pleads his case, but without proof / + Sobibor, Treblinka
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=10356

Sobibor Jew corpses claimed here, so why don't they excavate, verify, & show the world? !!!
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=10610

Shipped to the East: the evidence is in the MSM
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=10871

"eyewitness" Yankel Wiernik at Treblinka
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=33

Debate extracts with Nessie over Auschwitz crematoria
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=10953

The use of logical fallacies / Nessie craps out
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=8814

The Big Excuse: 'excavation & exhumation of Jews forbidden'
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=6817

Roberto Muehlenkamp & 'Holocaust' Industry cite incinerator patent application as proof of impossible cremation numbers
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=11266

Burden of proof: The fables of Russell's Teapot and Blobel's vanished graves
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=10679
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

Werd
Valuable asset
Valuable asset
Posts: 1106
Joined: Sat May 28, 2011 2:23 am

Re: Debate extracts with believer Nessie over Auschwitz crematoria

Postby Werd » 2 years 2 weeks ago (Wed Mar 21, 2018 7:10 pm)

Recall this:
At one point he tried a diversion by accusing me of comparing apples and oranges. Basically his argument was well at Westerbork, the cremation of a single adult corpse took 50 minutes. Which means it by then it was pure ash and no bone remains left over. At Auschwitz, they just waited for the remains to fall through the grates to add more corpses. Nessie's "aha gotcha" argument failed for the following reasons. By taking Westerbork into consideration, Nessie has to rewind the clock back to 30 minutes on this one adult body and he has either two choices. By 30 minutes the corpse can NOT be destroyed enough to fall through a grate, or it CAN be destroyed enough to fall through a grate. Given his insistence that Tauber is correct about 4 corpses being destroyed that much in 30 minutes in one muffle at Auschwitz, Nessie has to take the path of LEAST RESISTANCE and say that in Westerbork by 30 minutes, the corpse COULD fall through the grate. Because if it can't, then there is no way you're going to get 4 adult corpses to do that. Nessie has no choice but to LEVEL OUT Auschwitz and Westerbork for one body. And THIS rests on his premise that concurrent cremations are possible. That 2 or 3 or 4 bodies in one muffle will take the same amount of time as one corpse. And we already saw with Westerbork, that was not possible. If one child corpse increases the load and increases the time, then an extra 3 adult corpses most certainly would. As we can see, his whole dichotomy of pure ash versus ash and bone fragments went nowhere because in Westerbork, one child and one adult taking longer than one adult PROVES that if we took both scenarios and put the clock at 30 minutes into the cremations, there would be more "stuff" to get rid of in the child plus adult cremation versus just one adult. Again, increase the load, increase the time necessary to destroy it. This is a physical law that Nessie magically says is suspended when you add 3 corpses instead of just one and these are all adult corpses instead of just one extra child corpse.

How does Nessie now plan to get out of this embarrassing situation by arguing against established physical laws? He had an, "Oh shit" moment inside his head and is going to try a new tactic very soon. I know what's coming. He will take what he tried to do to Westerbork and apply it to Auschwitz. He will move the goal posts and say, "Oh what I REALLY MEANT saying an Auschwitz corpse can be destroyed in one muffle in 30 minutes, is that it was reduced to pure ash with no chunks remaining. So in 30 minutes ONE corpse is pure ash. In 30 minutes, 4 are only chunky and destroyed enough to fall through the grates in bits and pieces." This is a new "aha gotcha" argument which also goes back to this:
Nessie thought he would be clever and he cited a 28 June 1943 document from Mattogno on page 293 for cremation times that were short but still nowhere near what Tauber claimed. "On the basis of this document, the duration of one cremation was 25 minutes in the double muffle furnace and 15 minutes in the furnaces with three or eight muffles."

25 minutes versus 30. Not much difference. Nessie has resurrected an already refuted document. He's beating a dead horse again. Again, that was the same document that was full of errors and needed correcting as Mattogno showed on those 4 pages in section 9.6 of which above.
The SECOND argument refuting Nessie's new claim (after the bait and switch of course) that 30 minutes in one muffle in Auschwitz means reduction to pure ash with no chunks left, is what was done at Westerbork. Since it took 50 minutes to destroy it not to pure ash as Nessie claimed but left some chunks behind as seen in Mattogno page 308.
In the Westerbork crematorium, the end of the cremation corresponded to the moment when the corpse residues went into the ash compartment and the muffle was thus ready for a new corpse. - Mattogno, p. 308.

So Nessie just lied and made it up as we can see. What this quote means is by 30 minutes at Westerbork, there is NO WAY a body would have been destroyed enough to fall through ANY grates.

Nessie argues in circles. He argues one fallacy. It gets refuted. Then he argues another one. That gets refuted. Then he argues the first one again as if it was never refuted. He just keeps repeating the same three or four fallacies as if they are not dependent on each other when they clearly are. It's not just that one premise is false in his argument. EVERY SINGLE ONE IS. LOL.


Return to “'Holocaust' Debate / Controversies / Comments / News”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 6 guests