Eric Hunt recants - The photograph of the woman outside Kremas 4 & 5

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Eric Hunt recants - The photograph of the woman outside Kremas 4 & 5

Postby EtienneSC » 2 years 8 months ago (Thu Feb 16, 2017 7:11 am)

It seems to me that people are discussing Eric Hunt's wide ranging article in which he recants his former revisionist views (in January 2017) on a single thread. The discussion is becoming confused.

Eric Hunt's Essay of Recantation
Eric Hunt's original article ("The End of the Line") is here:
http://questioningtheholocaust.com/index.php/2017/01/27/the-end-of-the-line/
There is an archived copy here:
http://archive.is/DoGTn
Here is some relevant correspondence:
http://www.radicalpress.com/?p=10756
The essay is obviously intended to be a synoptic overview of a view he now finds convincing and covers such things as:

- The Auschwitz Album
- The outdoor corpse burning and related aerial photographs at Auschwitz
- Kremas 4 & 5 at Auschwitz-Birkenau (the photo of the woman)
- Kremas 2 & 3 at Auschwitz Birkenau ("No holes, no holocaust")
- Treblinka (Richard Krege, C S-Colls, photographs, early Polish investigations, the "transit camp" hypothesis)
- What happened to deportees
- The Babi Yar massacre
- The character of several revisionists
- The Legitimacy of revisionist methods
- The Persuasiveness of Revisionism to the general public and its practical relation to nascent nationalist Movements

I suggest that people might like to open separate threads on Hunt's views of some of these. His change of mind is very abrupt and I assume here that it is what it is presented as. In the long run, his criticisms and questions could improve the quality of debate.

The Photograph of the Woman outside Kremas 4 & 5

People have already commented on this photo on the following thread:
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=10950
Here is the photograph and a video explanation:
soon-to-be-gassed.jpg
soon-to-be-gassed.jpg (80.12 KiB) Viewed 3777 times


The accompanying text by Eric Hunt is unconvincing, as the image is ambiguous. However, he does not suggest that it is persuasive in isolation. Previous points made on the above thread are that:

The Men in the foreground
- The supposed Sonderkommandos are not wearing striped clothes, red crosses or the light colored clothes they are said or shown elsewhere to have worn.
- The men in long coats and felt hats don't look like they are dressed for manual labor.
- They might be "high-ranking" Sonderkommandos.
- However, there is no indication of rank on their clothing (insignia, markings, armbands, etc).
- Sonderkommandos who worked outside were allowed to wear civilian clothing taken from the Kanada sorting depot.
- Their clothes might thus be "stolen".
- They do not "look German".

The woman
- The woman might be distressed because a relative is in the nearby morgue.
- She might be about to be shot.
- She might be distressed as she is being separated from her family.
- She might be about to be punished for some crime, such as stealing or some other infraction of rules.
- She fits the criteria for someone who would be "selected" (for gassing).
- if she is a new arrival in the camp, she could not have broken any rules for people who are already inmates.

General
- There is no indication in the photograph of a larger group.
- No decisions were made outside the Kremas.
- J-C Pressac thought all four people in the group were Hungarian Jews about to enter the gas chamber.
- Robert Faurisson thought the men were assisting the woman (he published a booklet on the Album in 1983).
- If Faurisson is right that men and women were separated, why are there both men and women in the photograph? One solution is that the man have some official role (i.e. are Sonderkommandos).
- The guard in the background seems calm and unconcerned by the actions of the people in the foreground.
- Who is the cameraman?
- The picture might be fake, but that is not possible as the buildings shown were blown up in October 1944.
- The provenance of the Auschwitz Album is problematic (in some way described elsewhere).
- The photo needs to be explained in the context of a plausible account of new arrivals and the way the camp worked as a whole.
- Eric Hunt claims that there is no other reason the woman would be in that area, but this is inconclusive to prove an allegation of gassing.
- Holocaust Controversies have written an article about the photograph:
https://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.co.uk/2017/02/no-sonderkommando-prisoners-on.html

Now that attention has been drawn to the photograph, I would like to add:
The man on the right is restraining the woman by holding her arm in two places. If I were trying to restrain someone against their will, I would grasp them by the upper arm and wrist. If I were trying to help them in a co-operative way, or if they were seeking help, I would support their upper arm and hold their hand. The man on the right is supporting the woman's upper arm with his wrist or the palm of his right hand, holding her left hand with the other and looking at her head.

The man on the left is holding her arm in two places, or possibly holding some other object, and seems to be looking towards the Krema. Possibly she is unsteady and they are helping her put a coat on. Perhaps she has her right hand near the man on the left's throat. If so though, it cannot be to strike him as he is not defending himself. Is she grabbing onto him to support herself. The man on the left is static whilst the other two seem to be in motion to judge by their posture.

The man in the middle seems to be involved in some way, as he is "in her space" and also looking at her face. No-one is smiling. Her posture looks forced. Is she perhaps being dragged away from the man on her left by the other two men? I would not assume that all three men are acting in concert.

Overall, I find it ambiguous. It is also not clear to me what it meant to the person who took it.

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Re: Eric Hunt recants - The photograph of the woman outside Kremas 4 & 5

Postby katana » 2 years 8 months ago (Thu Feb 16, 2017 7:23 am)

I think the image is, as others have pointed out in the other thread, more likely than not, a fake.

Here's a graphic (click to enlarge) with a brief explanation:

The image below appears to be a montage of at least two images for the followings reasons:

The background with the truck and the soldier (1) are in focus while three “gangsters” and the woman are also in focus (2). Note that front left tree trunk is out of focus while tree trunk in front of the right soldier is only slightly out of focus.

The woman doesn’t appear to have any legs (3), unless they are very thin and positioned strangely.

The nonchalant unconcerned behavior of the soldiers (4), especially the right side soldier is not what you would expect considering what is happening in the foreground with the “gangsters” man handling the woman and the presence of a photographer.

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Auschwitz Album, Gangster Image a Fake.jpg
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Re: Eric Hunt recants - The photograph of the woman outside Kremas 4 & 5

Postby Reviso » 2 years 8 months ago (Thu Feb 16, 2017 9:16 am)

EtienneSC wrote: - The picture might be fake, but that is not possible as the buildings shown were blown up in October 1944.


For me, it is very possible that a picture of something that happened when Jews arrived in Auschwitz (a woman who for some reason needed help from three men) was superimposed to a picture of the Krema (in order to give a "gas chamber" sense to the scene). I agree with the ideas of Katana.
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Re: Eric Hunt recants - The photograph of the woman outside Kremas 4 & 5

Postby hermod » 2 years 8 months ago (Thu Feb 16, 2017 10:21 am)

katana wrote:.
Auschwitz Album, Gangster Image a Fake.jpg


What's the source of this pic, katana? I ask this question because the pic used by Eric and the maker of the video above was cut out so as to conceal that the woman has no legs.
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Re: Eric Hunt recants - The photograph of the woman outside Kremas 4 & 5

Postby Pia Kahn » 2 years 8 months ago (Thu Feb 16, 2017 11:30 am)

Eric Hunt has this to say about the image:

"This is an elderly Jewish woman being forcibly restrained and forced into the entrance of Auschwitz-Birkenau’s Crematorium 5 to be gassed. The cameraman is steps in front of Auschwitz II – Birkenau’s Crematorium 5, the entrance is close to his back. Crematorium 4 is and a pathway is in the background. Various armed guards and a truck are visible. I put forward that an uncomfortable hidden truth of this photograph is that those manhandling the woman are apparently the “Sonderkommando” Jews. These were Jews forced to work in the process of gassing and cremating doomed Jews."

1. How do we know that this is a "Jewish woman"? I can see an elderly woman, but I can't tell whether she is jewish or not.
2. How do we know that the building in the background is Crema 4? Is there anything characteristic about crema 4, which can be seen on the picture?
3. How do we know that she is forced into the entrance of Crema 5? The entrance is nowhere to be seen.
4. How do we know that the is about to be gassed?
5. How do we know that the men are "Sonderkommando" Jews?

I don't think Eric has answered these questions convincingly.

If the tree on the left hand side is out of focus and the tree between the car and the woman is in focus, then the three men holding the elderly woman must be out of focus, since they are not in the plane of focus. However, they are in focus. That would be conclusive evidence that the picture is a collage. However, I cannot tell whether the tree on the left hand side is truly out of focus.

This is the source for the photography (page 54):

http://collectifhistoirememoire.org/col ... CHWITZ.pdf

The picture has the following explanation:

"Trois hommes soutenant une femme âgée épuisée, qui semble avoir vu derrière elle le spectacle des chambres à gaz"

Three men supporting an old and tired woman who appears to have seen the spectacle of the gas chambers."

So the French author apparently thinks that the men are actually helping the old lady.
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Re: Eric Hunt recants - The photograph of the woman outside Kremas 4 & 5

Postby katana » 2 years 8 months ago (Thu Feb 16, 2017 3:49 pm)

hermod wrote:
katana wrote:.
Auschwitz Album, Gangster Image a Fake.jpg


What's the source of this pic, katana? I ask this question because the pic used by Eric and the maker of the video above was cut out so as to conceal that the woman has no legs.


In the other thread (a couple of days ago) I gave the link, for the un-cropped and clearer version, i.e.;

"Regarding the photograph of the 3 men holding the woman that the “New Eric Hunt” is highlighting as part of his conversion away from “denial”here is the original from the L'Album d'Auschwitz:

http://collectifhistoirememoire.org/collectifhistoirememoire.org/UserFiles/file/ALBUM_AUSCHWITZ.pdf
"
And yes, it looks very likely there are no legs, although part of the hem of her dress is cut off (click image to enlarge).

Auschwitz Album, Gangster Image a Fake - Closeup of legs.jpg
Auschwitz Album, Gangster Image a Fake - Closeup of legs.jpg (142.07 KiB) Viewed 3610 times
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Re: Eric Hunt recants - The photograph of the woman outside Kremas 4 & 5

Postby hermod » 2 years 8 months ago (Thu Feb 16, 2017 9:35 pm)

katana wrote:In the other thread (a couple of days ago) I gave the link, for the un-cropped and clearer version, i.e.;

"Regarding the photograph of the 3 men holding the woman that the “New Eric Hunt” is highlighting as part of his conversion away from “denial”here is the original from the L'Album d'Auschwitz:

http://collectifhistoirememoire.org/collectifhistoirememoire.org/UserFiles/file/ALBUM_AUSCHWITZ.pdf
"
And yes, it looks very likely there are no legs, although part of the hem of her dress is cut off (click image to enlarge).

Auschwitz Album, Gangster Image a Fake - Closeup of legs.jpg


Thank you, katana. Is this the link mentioned by Eric as his source for this picture? If it is, that would show a deliberate attempt on his part to hide the odd bottom of this pic by cutting it off.
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Re: Eric Hunt recants - The photograph of the woman outside Kremas 4 & 5

Postby katana » 2 years 8 months ago (Thu Feb 16, 2017 10:16 pm)

hermod wrote:
katana wrote:
Thank you, katana. Is this the link mentioned by Eric as his source for this picture? If it is, that would show a deliberate attempt on his part to hide the odd bottom of this pic by cutting it off.


Hermod, no, I dug that link up myself, doing a search for the album.

The cropped image that Eric is using comes from Pressac's book, page 421. Eric uses other images from there as well.

It can be downloaded here and has lots of engineering drawing, photographs, sketches, etc. (It's a big file —111 MB): https://archive.org/details/JCPAuschwit ... asChambers

Pressac's cropped, low quality image is what appears to used fairly often (since it's in his book), so I don't think Eric Hunt is himself trying to mislead here. This version does though facilitate disguising from people the likelihood that they will suspect that the image, is more than likely, a fake.
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Re: Eric Hunt recants - The photograph of the woman outside Kremas 4 & 5

Postby hermod » 2 years 8 months ago (Fri Feb 17, 2017 12:12 am)

So Pressac misled people with this pic. Unless he was himself misled by an earlier photo-"cropper."
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Re: Eric Hunt recants - The photograph of the woman outside Kremas 4 & 5

Postby katana » 2 years 8 months ago (Fri Feb 17, 2017 1:43 am)

hermod wrote:So Pressac misled people with this pic. Unless he was himself misled by an earlier photo-"cropper."


I don't know who the original "cropper" was. In his book Pressac is talking about a pamphlet written by Faurrisson called “Les Tricheries de l'Album d'Auschwitz” thatdiscusses the image. But I've not been able to locate that pamphlet.

Here's the original image again with the outline of the cropped version shown for comparison.
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Auschwitz Album, Gangster Image a Fake - Ver 2.jpg
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Re: Eric Hunt recants - The photograph of the woman outside Kremas 4 & 5

Postby Reviso » 2 years 8 months ago (Fri Feb 17, 2017 9:59 am)

On Holocaust Controversies, here :
http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... .html#more

The Black Rabbit of Inlé posted this comment :
"There's far more pictures in the Auschwitz Album that were taken near K4 & 5 which feature older men in them:

http://www.yadvashem.org/yv/en/exhibiti ... 68_130.jpg
http://www.yadvashem.org/yv/en/exhibiti ... 68_131.jpg
http://www.yadvashem.org/yv/en/exhibiti ... 68_133.jpg
http://www.yadvashem.org/yv/en/exhibiti ... 68_135.jpg
http://www.yadvashem.org/yv/en/exhibiti ... 68_140.jpg
and especially:
http://www.yadvashem.org/yv/en/exhibiti ... 68_138.jpg"

Well, these pictures seem good counterexamples to me : here we see something absolutely different from the picture of the tree men and the woman, the foreground is naturally linked to the background, no impression of unreality, no impression that the persons come out of nowhere.
R

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Re: Eric Hunt recants - The photograph of the woman outside Kremas 4 & 5

Postby borjastick » 2 years 8 months ago (Fri Feb 17, 2017 10:33 am)

Reviso wrote:On Holocaust Controversies, here :
http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... .html#more

The Black Rabbit of Inlé posted this comment :
"There's far more pictures in the Auschwitz Album that were taken near K4 & 5 which feature older men in them:

http://www.yadvashem.org/yv/en/exhibiti ... 68_130.jpg
http://www.yadvashem.org/yv/en/exhibiti ... 68_131.jpg
http://www.yadvashem.org/yv/en/exhibiti ... 68_133.jpg
http://www.yadvashem.org/yv/en/exhibiti ... 68_135.jpg
http://www.yadvashem.org/yv/en/exhibiti ... 68_140.jpg
and especially:
http://www.yadvashem.org/yv/en/exhibiti ... 68_138.jpg"

Well, these pictures seem good counterexamples to me : here we see something absolutely different from the picture of the tree men and the woman, the foreground is naturally linked to the background, no impression of unreality, no impression that the persons come out of nowhere.
R


In 'Will the real Eric Hunt please stand up's' essay which sparked all this stuff this week he shows the last picture (138) and says something like 'they all look distressed'. They don't and neither do any of the subjects in any of the above pictures. No one looks distressed, looks like they are waiting to be gassed. In fact they all look like they are on a Sunday trip out to the beach. People chatting, hands clasped nonchalantly behind backs, yawning, sitting about. Why I could almost hear a verse of Kumbaya My Lord or in this case Oy Vay Yah Yahwey. To claim that these pictures prove these people were about to be gassed is total rubbish.
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Re: Eric Hunt recants - The photograph of the woman outside Kremas 4 & 5

Postby hermod » 2 years 8 months ago (Fri Feb 17, 2017 11:44 am)

katana wrote:
hermod wrote:So Pressac misled people with this pic. Unless he was himself misled by an earlier photo-"cropper."


I don't know who the original "cropper" was. In his book Pressac is talking about a pamphlet written by Faurrisson called “Les Tricheries de l'Album d'Auschwitz” thatdiscusses the image. But I've not been able to locate that pamphlet.

Here's the original image again with the outline of the cropped version shown for comparison.
.
Auschwitz Album, Gangster Image a Fake - Ver 2.jpg


You can find the French paper called Les Tricheries de "l'Album d'Auschwitz" on Pr. Faurisson's blog (December 1983): http://robertfaurisson.blogspot.be/1983 ... hwitz.html

Interestingly, Pr. Faurisson explained in this paper that the order of the photos was [very probably] not altered in the American edition of the Auschwitz Album (published in 1981) with respect to its original arrangement while it was very altered by Pressac in the French edition of it (published in 1983) in order to make it tell a very different story. Faurisson also explained in Les Tricheries de "l'Album d'Auschwitz" that Pressac mistranslated and adulterated the original German captions of the photos for the same purpose. A set of pics dishonestly reorganized and miscaptioned for the purpose of deceiving the readers, the classic methods of Holohoaxsters !! No need to wonder why the French edition finally prevailed over the American edition...

About the photo of the woman with 3 men, Faurisson wrote:

The analysis of the photograph that J.-C. Pressac placed at the end of the collection as the most terrible one testifies, once again, to a kind of eclipse of the analyst's mental faculties. He (Pressac) writes :

This photo is unique, terrible and to be added to the record of the extermination of the Jews as Prosecution evidence.

The photo shows in the background a crematory, very visible, without even a hedge of protection (concealment). On the left, two soldiers with a police cap, and perhaps a third soldier. On the right, another soldier with a police cap is walking with a peaceful step towards the front of a truck. There are trees. None of the soldiers pays attention to a scene that takes place in the foreground and that the photographer has captured. There are three Jews with hats, two are aged and the third one is in the prime of life. Between them, there is a very fat woman with a veil who seems to argue with at least one of the two Jews on the left. The man on the right supports the woman and seems to want to take her away. Here's a part of the comment of this photo:

The path on which this woman refuses to move forward ends up in front of the entrance door of crematorium V, leading to the undressing room and the gas chambers. If the three men dragging her do not seem to suspect the fate awaiting them, she knows that the building from which she's turning away, this red-brick building with a black roof, with its two 16-feet-high chimneys, has become the negation of life and stinks like death.

This pathos can not hide this fact: there is no path and one can not predict the direction that a character or another might take. Nothing is said about the presence and indifference or inattention of the German soldiers. How could the woman know that she was going to be gassed, and how could the men not know that they were going to be gassed? Finally and above all, it is clear that the woman does not try to detach herself from the man on the right or to struggle: with her left hand she's holding the hand of this man.


L’analyse de la photo que J.-C. Pressac a placée à la fin du recueil comme étant la plus terrible témoigne, là encore, d’une sorte d’éclipse des facultés mentales de l’analyste. Il écrit :

Cette photo est unique, terrible et à verser au dossier de l’extermination des Juifs comme preuve à charge [5].

La photo représente au fond un crématoire, bien visible, sans même une haie de protection ; à gauche, deux soldats en bonnet de police et peut-être un troisième soldat ; à droite, un autre soldat en bonnet de police se dirige d’un pas paisible vers l’avant d’un camion. Il y a des arbres. Aucun des soldats ne prête attention à une scène qui se déroule au premier plan et que le photographe a captée. Il y a là trois juifs à chapeaux ; deux sont âgés et le troisième est dans la force de l’âge ; au centre une très grosse femme à fichu paraît se disputer avec au moins l’un des deux juifs de gauche ; celui de droite soutient la femme et semble vouloir l’emmener de là. Voici une partie du commentaire de cette photo :

Le sentier sur lequel cette femme refuse d’avancer aboutit devant la porte d’entrée du crématoire-V, donnant sur le vestiaire et les chambres à gaz. Si les trois hommes qui l’entraînent ne semblent pas se douter du sort qui les attend, elle sait que le bâtiment dont elle se détourne, ce bâtiment en briques rouges, au toit noir, avec ses deux cheminées hautes de seize mètres, est devenu la négation de la vie et pue la mort.

Ce pathos ne saurait nous cacher ceci : il n’y a pas de sentier et on ne saurait prédire la direction que pourrait prendre tel ou tel personnage ; on ne nous dit rien de la présence et de l’indifférence ou de l’inattention des soldats allemands ; comment la femme saurait-elle qu’on va la gazer et comment les hommes ignoreraient-ils qu’on va les gazer ? Enfin et surtout, il est manifeste que la femme ne cherche pas à se détacher de l’homme de droite ou à lui résister : de sa main gauche elle enserre la main de cet homme.

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Re: Eric Hunt recants - The photograph of the woman outside Kremas 4 & 5

Postby EtienneSC » 2 years 8 months ago (Sun Feb 19, 2017 2:03 pm)

On reflection, the meaning that the photo conveys to me is that the woman and the man on the left are being separated against the woman's wishes. They are about the same age and so may be husband and wife. She is reaching out to him with her hand below his chin, perhaps holding his tie or collar, to convey her wish to stay with him. It is typical for women to show emotion more readily than men. Hence the woman is distressed, the man on the left more stoical. She is old and may feel reliant on him in a strange environment, as many women of that generation did because they spent much of their time at home and around family with the men taking case of business. The two younger men (center and right) seem to be encouraging her to leave him. They are younger and have a more business-like air, like Gestapo men.

If this were so, the photo would have had a dramatic significance for the person taking it and hence he would have had a reason to take it and include it in the album. The location outside the crematorium and the rumors about the camp give the photograph a sinister air to us.

This is different from Faurisson's interpretation, but it's inevitably a subjective matter. Obviously, this is just my impression and proves nothing.

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Re: Eric Hunt recants - The photograph of the woman outside Kremas 4 & 5

Postby Reviso » 2 years 8 months ago (Mon Feb 20, 2017 4:31 am)

EtienneSC wrote:On reflection, the meaning that the photo conveys to me is that the woman and the man on the left are being separated against the woman's wishes. They are about the same age and so may be husband and wife. She is reaching out to him with her hand below his chin, perhaps holding his tie or collar, to convey her wish to stay with him. It is typical for women to show emotion more readily than men. Hence the woman is distressed, the man on the left more stoical. She is old and may feel reliant on him in a strange environment, as many women of that generation did because they spent much of their time at home and around family with the men taking case of business. The two younger men (center and right) seem to be encouraging her to leave him. They are younger and have a more business-like air, like Gestapo men.

If this were so, the photo would have had a dramatic significance for the person taking it and hence he would have had a reason to take it and include it in the album. The location outside the crematorium and the rumors about the camp give the photograph a sinister air to us.

This is different from Faurisson's interpretation, but it's inevitably a subjective matter. Obviously, this is just my impression and proves nothing.


This seems very plausible to me, but I still have the impression that the three men and the woman were extracted from a picture where there were more Jews and were superimposed to the background. Katana, Dresden and perhaps somebody I forget gave arguments in that sense.
R.


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