Question regarding Wansee and Eichmann

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Reviso
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Re: Question regarding Wansee and Eichmann

Postby Reviso » 3 years 7 months ago (Mon Feb 27, 2017 2:15 am)

hermod wrote: could also be additional information Goebbels had from talks with Hitler and/or other National Socialist leaders.


OK, this is not impossible, but the context suggests that Goebbels spoke of the Wannsee Conference. And if a "Madagascar solution" was really contemplated at this time by Hitler and/or other National Socialist leaders, isn't it surprising that there is no mention of it in Kempner's copy ?
If I'm not wrong, there is a man who attended the Wannsee Conference and who said at a Nuremberg trial that the content of the Kempner copy didn't fit his rememberings. According to his rememberings, nothing grim was said at the Conference. Asked about the words " "treated accordingly", he recognized that these words were grim, but he didn't say that they were in accordance with his rememberings.
(If anybody knows who this man was, it would be kind to say it. Otherwise, I can search my documentation and Internet in the hope to identify him.)
R.

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Re: Question regarding Wansee and Eichmann

Postby Hieldner » 3 years 7 months ago (Mon Feb 27, 2017 2:54 am)

Reviso wrote:I'm a bit surprised that nobody seems interested by my remark that Goebbel's note could be the smoking gun proving that Kempner's copy of the Protocol is false...
R.

I found your discovery very interesting. But I thought the protocol was forged mainly to exaggerate the Jewish pre-war population figures, yet Goebbels confirms these. There’s no extermination order in the protocol. So why would Kempner have forged it? I’m a bit puzzled.

I think this Goebbels diary entry was already machine written, so a further study of its origin may be interesting as well.
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Reviso
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Re: Question regarding Wansee and Eichmann

Postby Reviso » 3 years 7 months ago (Mon Feb 27, 2017 3:36 am)

Hieldner wrote:
Reviso wrote:There’s no extermination order in the protocol. So why would Kempner have forged it? I’m a bit puzzled.

When Kempner "revealed" his copy of the Protocol, it was viewed as horrendous, in view, I think, of the words "treated accordingly". (Reaction of Taylor, if I'm not wrong.) The man who attended the Conference and was interrogated at Nuremberg about the words "treated accordingly" recognized that these words were grim. (OK, it would be necessary that I remember the name of this man.) Thus, it was sufficient to replace Madagascar by "treated accordingly" in order to have a "proof" of the extermination.
R.

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hermod
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Re: Question regarding Wansee and Eichmann

Postby hermod » 3 years 7 months ago (Mon Feb 27, 2017 5:06 am)

Reviso wrote:
hermod wrote: could also be additional information Goebbels had from talks with Hitler and/or other National Socialist leaders.


OK, this is not impossible, but the context suggests that Goebbels spoke of the Wannsee Conference. And if a "Madagascar solution" was really contemplated at this time by Hitler and/or other National Socialist leaders, isn't it surprising that there is no mention of it in Kempner's copy ?


Yes, the context suggests that. But alas, it only suggests that.

No surprise a Madagascar solution was still contemplated at that time but however not mentioned in Kempner's copy of the protocol. Madagascar was only a possible destination among others after all. In a later entry in his diaries, Goebbels said that Hitler "would much prefer to resettle (aussiedeln) them in central Africa" (May 30, 1942). The question was still open at that time and remained so until the final defeat of the Third Reich. No need to mention Madagascar more than any other suitable place out of Europe in the Wannsee Protocol. The final destination of Europe's Jews was a postwar question in the event of a German victory. The Wannsee conference dealt only with the wartime preparation of the final solution to the Jewish question in Europe.

IMO, if Kempner's copy was a forgery, it would be an exterminationist document full of unambiguous murderous/genocidal words. I don't think that any Zionist, Allied or Soviet forger would have written such a nice piece of revisionist writing. The Nazi final solution of the Jewish question was never implemented. It was only prepared through the uprooting of a number of Jews and their deportation to the East, as the Kempner's copy unambiguously explained. Kempner's copy of the Wannsee Protocol indeed stated that: "this operation (i.e. the "evacuation of the Jews to the East") should be regarded only as a provisional option, [...] in view of the coming final solution of the Jewish question." Couldn't be more revisionist than that...
"But, however the world pretends to divide itself, there are ony two divisions in the world to-day - human beings and Germans. – Rudyard Kipling, The Morning Post (London), June 22, 1915

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Re: Question regarding Wansee and Eichmann

Postby ChronoMachete » 3 years 7 months ago (Tue Feb 28, 2017 5:24 pm)

Wasn't there an upcoming Holocaust Handbooks volume on the Wansee Protocol that was held back? I'm still holding out hope that after all the 40 volumes are released, Germar will greenlight production of it.

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Re: Question regarding Wansee and Eichmann

Postby Lamprecht » 1 year 2 months ago (Wed Jul 31, 2019 4:33 pm)

According to Holocaust believer Mark Roseman:
Eichmann, for his part, was at pains to establish a clear set of orders that absolved him of responsibility.
also:
Adolf Eichmann spoke more openly, but his testimony is unreliable, particularly on his own aspirations, concerned as he was to portray himself as a dutiful errand boy, with neither initiation nor knowledge.
further:
Both Rudolf Hoess's and Eichmann's testimonies lack credibility.
- Roseman, Mark (2002) "The Wannsee Conference and the Final Solution: A Reconsideration"

Eichmann just used the Speer Defense Strategy, i.e. he said that he had been a small cog in a big machine he couldn't stop, divert or escape. A classic of the postwar mock trials. Still better for his own safety (and for the safety of his relatives) than to call his accusers "big liars" with Holocaust denial (of course, a suicidal choice under such circumstances).

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The main goal of the Eichmann mock trial was to make Adolf Eichmann state publicly that he had altered the minutes of the Wannsee Conference because the documentary file on the alleged Nazi extermination of the Jews was (and still is) desperately empty. Tellingly, the very long "interrogation" of Eichmann at the Jerusalem judicial farce of 1961 ended as soon as a broken Eichmann finally did that.

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"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments, and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance -- that principle is contempt prior to investigation."
— Herbert Spencer


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