He began to talk immediately and gave a historical overview of the position of the Nazis vs. the Jews. "In our generation we have not known any peace," he said. "When the first World War began, I was 14 years old. The war hardly ended when the civil war began and the Jews were deeply involved in the Spartacus revolt. The Jews were a foreign element in our midst, which always evoked irritation. They were driven out of Germany several times, however they always returned. After coming into power, we wanted to settle this issue once and for all, and I was I favor of a humane solution through emigration. I conferred with American organizations to arrange for a quick emigration, but even countries who claimed to be friendly toward the Jews, did not want to admit Jews."
I countered that possibly it might have been more comfortable for the German people not to have a minority among its midst. However, based on prevailing law, it did not seem right to suddenly exile people whose ancestors had lived in a country for a long time. In spite of this, it was necessary for the Jews to bend to the will of force and they tried to emigrate. The National-Socialists wanted a situation which was created over several centuries, to be changed within a few years, and that was impossible.
Himmler continued: "Then the war brought us into contact with the Jewish masses of the East, who were mostly part of the proletariat. Because of this, many new problems arose. We could not tolerate such an enemy at our backs. The Jewish masses were infected with many diseases, especially typhoid fever. I lost thousands of my SS troops through these diseases. Also the Jews were helping the partisans."
Answering my question as to how the Jews could be helping the partisans, after the Germans concentrated them into large ghettos, he said: "They sent news to the partisans. In addition, they were shooting at our troops in the ghettoes." That was Himmler’s reaction to the heroic fight of the Jews in the Warsaw ghetto! What an unbelievable distortion of the truth!
I tried very carefully to get him away from the unfortunate thought to defend his policies against the Jews in front of a Jew, because such an attempt would force him to add lie upon lie to his argument. But it was impossible to do so. It seemed that he had the need to express his defense to a Jew, as he probably let that the days of his life, or at least the days of his freedom were numbered. And Himmler continued: "In order to stop the epidemic, we were forced to cremate the bodies of the many people that died of the disease. That was the reason we had to build the crematoria, and now, because of this everybody wants to tighten the noose around our neck." This was the most convulsing try by Himmler to cover up his deeds. I loathed this explanation of the crematoria to such an extent that I could only remain silent.
"The war in the East was unbelievable difficult," said Himmler. "We did (not?) to want any wars with Russia. But suddenly we learned that the Russian had 20,000 tanks at that forced us into action. Either we prevailed or we would perish. The war at the eastern front made the most difficult demands on our soldiers. A terrible climate, never ending distances, an enemy population, and constantly appearing partisans. Only by being harsh could the troops prevail. Because of this, they were forced to destroy whole villages, if there was resistance and shooting from such a village. The Russians are not ordinary enemies, we cannot understand their mentality. In the most hopeless situations, they would refuse to capitulate. If, because of these difficulties in the east, the Jewish people suffered great casualties, one needs to remember that the German people also suffered severely."
Himmler then got to the subject of the concentration camps. "The bad reputation of these camps was because of the unfortunate choice of names for them, that was a mistake, we should have called them ‘educational camps’. There were not only Jewish and political prisoners in the camps, but also criminal elements, who were detained after they served their sentence in prison. Because of this, in 1941, a war year, Germany had the lowest crime rate in decades. The prisoners had to perform heavy labor but that was true of the German people too. The treatment in the camps was sever but just." I interrupted: " But one cannot deny that many atrocities occurred in the camps," to which he answered:" I have to admit that this happened, but I then punished the guilty."
Even though during this conversation I constantly had to keep my goal of liberation of Jews and of the prisoners in my mind, and therefore had to choose my words carefully, I was not able to, nor did I want to, contain my agitation, when he talked about the "just treatment" in the contention camps. It was to my satisfaction, in the name of the suffering Jewish people, to tell him a thing or two about the atrocities in the concentration camps. At that moment, I felt that I had the upper hand as the advocate of the bent over, but not destroyed, rights of man. And I believe that Himmler felt the weakness of his positon.
I tried once again to get him off the thoughts of trying to defend this position. "Too many things occurred that cannot be changed or rectified any more," I began. But if in the future we need to build a bridge between our people, then at least the Jews at that are still in the areas occupied by Germany, should remain alive. Therefore we are asking that the Jews in the camps near the Swedish and Swiss borders be freed in order to evacuate them to other counties. Additionally we ask that the Jews in the other camps be treated well, be fed properly that they get the proper medical care and that the camps be surrendered to the Allies without resistance once the front lines got close. Also we ask that the requests mentioned in several lists of the Swedish Foreign ministry be fulfilled and that freedom be given to the prisoners listed by name, be they Swedish, French, Jews, Dutch and a number of Norwegian hostages."
Kersten vigorously supported all requests. I asked Himmler to tell us the number of Jews still alive in the camps and he listed the following figures: Theresienstadt 25,000, Rawensbrück 20,000 Mauthausen 20 to 30,000, in addition to smaller numbers in several other camps. Also he claimed that in the camps captured by the Allies the following numbers of Jews were left: Auschwitz 150,000, Bergen Belsen 50,000, Buchenwald 6,000. It seemed to me that his claims were false, and certainly, with respect to Auschwitz greatly exaggerated.
In Hungary, Himmler claimed to have left 450,000 Jews. "So what were the thanks for this?" he said sanctimoniously. "The Jews shot at our troops in Budapest." I objected: "If there were 450,000 Jews left of the original 850,000 it means that 400,000 Jews were deported to an unknown destiny. The Jews left in Hungary could not know what fate the Germans had in mind for them, and that was the reasons for this kind of reaction." Himmler pushed such arguments aside apparently he appropriated the well-known verse of LaFontaine, "This animal is very bad, when attacked it defends itself" to his own purpose.
Himmler continued on: "It was my intention to turn over the concentration camps without defending them, as I had promised. I turned over Bergen Belsen and Buchenwald, but I got no thanks for this. In Bergen Belsen they tied up a guard and photographed him with a few prisoners who had just died. And such pictures are now being published all over the world press. I also turned over Buchenwald without a struggle. Suddenly the advancing American tanks opened fire, hit the hospital building which consisted of a wooden barrack, and which of course caught on fire, burned down completely and the burned corpses were later photographed. With these kind of pictures the world press is now printing hate propaganda. When I released 2700 Jews into Switzerland yea ths also resulted in a press campaign again me personally. It was written that I only released these people in order to establish an alibi for myself. I do not need an alibi as I only did what I thought was necessary for my people, and I will stand on that. I did not become a rich man. Nobody has been covered with dirt in the newspapers in the last 12 years as much as I have been. It never made any difference to me, even in Germany anybody could write about me whatever they wanted. But the publication of atrocities as incitement against myself does not encourage me to continue my policy to turn over the camps without resistance. That is why, a few days ago, when the American tank columns closed in on a camp in Saxony, I had this camp evacuated. Why should I do anything differently?"
I was afraid that Himmler’s repeated complaints about the publication of the terrible deeds in the concentration camps, which he tried to label as hate propaganda, would result in a request to stop such publicity as compensation in order to fulfill my requests. Without a doubt Himmler believed, after constantly hearing Goebbel’s propaganda, that we Jews really had the power to control the world press, as stated by the Nazi lie propaganda. And maybe he thought that I, as a representative of the Jews, could influence the press of the allied and neutral countries, even though he had been told that I had come as a private citizen.
https://archive.org/details/NorbertMasu ... ichHimmler
Talks between Masur and Himmler must have been around April 20th 1945. Masur's testimony on what Heinrich Himmler said, essentially what Revisionists say:
- According to Himmler Jews were a foreign element in Germany and elsewhere causing trouble, including Communism as movement.
- Jews engaged in partisan warfare and/or supported partisans.
- Jews were deported and interned e.g. in concentration camps.
- Diseases like typhoid fever were rife in an outside the camps.
- Crematoria were to deal with the corpses of those dying from disease.
- Allies used causalities for Atrocity propaganda.
- Some camp staff engaged in inappropriate behavior, but was punished.
- No indication of any extermination program, just physical removal of Jews from the German sphere.