Nuremberg - Fair Trial or Show Trial ?

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Re: Nuremberg - Fair Trial or Show Trial ?

Postby flimflam » 1 month 4 weeks ago (Thu Jun 27, 2019 4:21 pm)

HMSendeavour wrote:
flimflam wrote:
BroncoBuff wrote:This is a real problem for Holocaust deniers or Third Reich revisionists: When faced with criminal charges that could well result in a sentence of death and summary execution, none of them claimed "it was all a hoax." No defendants went on record claiming it was all a fiction concocted by the allies, and none of it happened.

Only one defendant at Nuremberg was charged with having a direct or operational role in the holohoax, that was Ernst Kaltenbrunner, who was 2nd in command under Himmler in the SS, and the SS was responsible for running the camps. So, none of the other defendants were charged with carrying out the holohoax and it is reasonable to assume that they had no direct knowledge of whether or not the holohoax occurred as it was outside of their purview.

Only one defendant at Nuremberg, Ernst Kaltenbrunner, 2nd in command of the SS, was charged with having an operational role in the killing of Jews. He testified as follows:

R. KAUFFMANN: What attitude did you adopt when you heard about it?

KALTENBRUNNER: I had no knowledge of Hitler's order to Heydrich regarding the final solution of the Jewish problem at the time I took up my office. In the summer of 1943 I gathered from the foreign press and through the enemy radio...

THE PRESIDENT: This is not an answer to your question. You asked …


COL. BROOKHART: Witness after witness, by testimony and affidavit, has said that the gas chamber killings were done on general or specific orders of Kaltenbrunner.

KALTENBRUNNER: Show me one of those men or any of those orders. It is utterly impossible.

COL. BROOKHART: Practically all of the orders came through Kaltenbrunner.

KALTENBRUNNER: Entirely impossible.

You can see part of Kaltenbrunner’s testimony here, where he is accused of ordereing the exection of the prisoners at Mauthausen at the end of the war, of course there was no order and the prisoners were not executed.

The head of the SS, Heinrich Himmler, was also captured at the end of the war. He was interviewed, Norbert Masur My Meeting With Heinrich Himmler, and said

In order to stop the epidemic, we were forced to cremate the bodies of the many people that died of the disease. That was the reason we had to build the crematoria, and now, because of this everybody wants to tighten the noose around our neck.

For a critique of the Nuremberg trial see

What is the source of the Himmler quote and do you have the nuremberg page for the Kaltenbrunner transcript in which he says this?

Sounds like he's outright denying it to me.

Himmler quote .... ... 5/mode/2up

Kaltenbrunner testimony ....
and ... brunner.04

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Re: Nuremberg - Fair Trial or Show Trial ?

Postby Lamprecht » 1 week 4 days ago (Tue Aug 13, 2019 10:05 pm)

U.S. Senator Robert A. Taft:
About this whole judgment there is the spirit of vengeance, and vengeance is seldom justice. The hanging of the eleven men convicted will be a blot on the American record which we will long regret. In these trials we have accepted the Russian idea of the purpose of trials -- government policy and not justice -- with little relation to Anglo-Saxon heritage. By clothing policy in the forms of legal procedure, we may discredit the whole idea of justice in Europe for years to come.
Delivered at Kenyon College, Ohio, Oct. 5, 1946. Vital Speeches of the Day, Nov. 1, 1946, p. 47. Text also published in: Jay W. Baird, ed., From Nuremberg to My Lai (Lexington, Mass.: D. C. Heath, 1972), pp. 107-113. See also: William Bosch, Judgment on Nuremberg (1970), pp. 73-81. Taft's devotion to principle during a time of widespread anti-German hysteria impressed John F. Kennedy, who praised the Ohio senator's stand in his award-winning best seller, Profiles in Courage.

U.S. Supreme Court Justice William O. Douglas:
I thought at the time and still think that the Nuremberg trials were unprincipled. Law was created ex post facto to suit the passion and clamor of the time.
H. K. Thompson and H. Strutz, eds., Dönitz at Nuremberg: A Reappraisal (IHR, 1983), p. 196.

Edgar N. Eisenhower, American Attorney, brother of President Dwight D. Eisenhower:
I think the Nuremberg trials are a black page in the history of the world...I discussed the legality of these trials with some of the lawyers and some of the judges who participated therein. They did not attempt to justify their action on any legal ground, but rested their position on the fact that in their opinion, the parties convicted were guilty...This action is contrary to the fundamental laws under which this country has lived for many hundreds of years, and I think cannot be justified by any line of reasoning. I think the Israeli trial of Adolf Eichmann is exactly in the same category as the Nuremberg trials. As a lawyer, it has always been my view that a crime must be defined before you can be guilty of committing it. That has not occurred in either of the trials I refer to herein.
Thompson, and Strutz ed., p.168

T.S. Eliot, English poet and author:
I was from the beginning very unhappy about the Nuremberg trials... the weak points of such trials are obvious: they are trials of the vanquished by the victors instead of by an impartial tribunal; furthermore the trials are only of the crimes committed by the vanquished, and the fact that the Katyn massacre of Polish officers was never properly investigated casts doubt on the conduct of such trials.
Thompson, and Strutz ed., p. 5

George B. Fowler, Ph.D., Professor of History, University of Pittsburgh:
I shall always have doubts about the whole 'War Crimes Trials,' both in Germany and in Japan. I am unable to understand how one can try an officer for obeying orders or for doing his duty. It makes no difference what flag he fights under. To me, the War Crimes Trials of Nuremberg and elsewhere are one illustration of the greatest danger of our times: mass pressure based largely on little information and perilously close to mass hysteria.
Thompson, and Strutz ed., p. 111

Rear Admiral, U.S.N. Dan V. Gallery:
This kangaroo court at Nuremburg was officially known as the 'International Military Tribunal.' That name is a libel on the military profession. The tribunal was not a military one in any sense. The only military men among the judges were the Russians.... At Nuremberg, mankind and our present civilization were on trial, with men whose own hands were bloody sitting on the judges' seats. One of the judges came from the country which committed the Katyn Forest massacre and produced an array of witnesses to swear at Nuremberg that the Germans had done it.
Thompson, and Strutz ed., pp.XXI-XXII
"There is a principal which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments, and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance -- that principal is contempt prior to investigation."
-- Herbert Spencer

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