Nuremberg - Fair Trial or Show Trial ?

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Re: Nuremberg - Fair Trial or Show Trial ?

Postby flimflam » 5 months 1 week ago (Thu Jun 27, 2019 4:21 pm)

HMSendeavour wrote:
flimflam wrote:
BroncoBuff wrote:This is a real problem for Holocaust deniers or Third Reich revisionists: When faced with criminal charges that could well result in a sentence of death and summary execution, none of them claimed "it was all a hoax." No defendants went on record claiming it was all a fiction concocted by the allies, and none of it happened.


Only one defendant at Nuremberg was charged with having a direct or operational role in the holohoax, that was Ernst Kaltenbrunner, who was 2nd in command under Himmler in the SS, and the SS was responsible for running the camps. So, none of the other defendants were charged with carrying out the holohoax and it is reasonable to assume that they had no direct knowledge of whether or not the holohoax occurred as it was outside of their purview.

Only one defendant at Nuremberg, Ernst Kaltenbrunner, 2nd in command of the SS, was charged with having an operational role in the killing of Jews. He testified as follows:

R. KAUFFMANN: What attitude did you adopt when you heard about it?

KALTENBRUNNER: I had no knowledge of Hitler's order to Heydrich regarding the final solution of the Jewish problem at the time I took up my office. In the summer of 1943 I gathered from the foreign press and through the enemy radio...

THE PRESIDENT: This is not an answer to your question. You asked …

and

COL. BROOKHART: Witness after witness, by testimony and affidavit, has said that the gas chamber killings were done on general or specific orders of Kaltenbrunner.

KALTENBRUNNER: Show me one of those men or any of those orders. It is utterly impossible.

COL. BROOKHART: Practically all of the orders came through Kaltenbrunner.

KALTENBRUNNER: Entirely impossible.


You can see part of Kaltenbrunner’s testimony here, where he is accused of ordereing the exection of the prisoners at Mauthausen at the end of the war, of course there was no order and the prisoners were not executed.



The head of the SS, Heinrich Himmler, was also captured at the end of the war. He was interviewed, Norbert Masur My Meeting With Heinrich Himmler, and said

In order to stop the epidemic, we were forced to cremate the bodies of the many people that died of the disease. That was the reason we had to build the crematoria, and now, because of this everybody wants to tighten the noose around our neck.


For a critique of the Nuremberg trial see https://www.quora.com/Were-the-Nuremberg-trials-mere-victors-justice/answer/Allan-Davis-36


What is the source of the Himmler quote and do you have the nuremberg page for the Kaltenbrunner transcript in which he says this?

Sounds like he's outright denying it to me.


Himmler quote .... https://archive.org/stream/NorbertMasur ... 5/mode/2up

Kaltenbrunner testimony ....
http://avalon.law.yale.edu/imt/04-11-46.asp
and
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/imt/nca/s ... brunner.04

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Re: Nuremberg - Fair Trial or Show Trial ?

Postby Lamprecht » 3 months 3 weeks ago (Tue Aug 13, 2019 10:05 pm)

U.S. Senator Robert A. Taft:
About this whole judgment there is the spirit of vengeance, and vengeance is seldom justice. The hanging of the eleven men convicted will be a blot on the American record which we will long regret. In these trials we have accepted the Russian idea of the purpose of trials -- government policy and not justice -- with little relation to Anglo-Saxon heritage. By clothing policy in the forms of legal procedure, we may discredit the whole idea of justice in Europe for years to come.
Delivered at Kenyon College, Ohio, Oct. 5, 1946. Vital Speeches of the Day, Nov. 1, 1946, p. 47. Text also published in: Jay W. Baird, ed., From Nuremberg to My Lai (Lexington, Mass.: D. C. Heath, 1972), pp. 107-113. See also: William Bosch, Judgment on Nuremberg (1970), pp. 73-81. Taft's devotion to principle during a time of widespread anti-German hysteria impressed John F. Kennedy, who praised the Ohio senator's stand in his award-winning best seller, Profiles in Courage.



U.S. Supreme Court Justice William O. Douglas:
I thought at the time and still think that the Nuremberg trials were unprincipled. Law was created ex post facto to suit the passion and clamor of the time.
H. K. Thompson and H. Strutz, eds., Dönitz at Nuremberg: A Reappraisal (IHR, 1983), p. 196.



Edgar N. Eisenhower, American Attorney, brother of President Dwight D. Eisenhower:
I think the Nuremberg trials are a black page in the history of the world...I discussed the legality of these trials with some of the lawyers and some of the judges who participated therein. They did not attempt to justify their action on any legal ground, but rested their position on the fact that in their opinion, the parties convicted were guilty...This action is contrary to the fundamental laws under which this country has lived for many hundreds of years, and I think cannot be justified by any line of reasoning. I think the Israeli trial of Adolf Eichmann is exactly in the same category as the Nuremberg trials. As a lawyer, it has always been my view that a crime must be defined before you can be guilty of committing it. That has not occurred in either of the trials I refer to herein.
Thompson, and Strutz ed., p.168



T.S. Eliot, English poet and author:
I was from the beginning very unhappy about the Nuremberg trials... the weak points of such trials are obvious: they are trials of the vanquished by the victors instead of by an impartial tribunal; furthermore the trials are only of the crimes committed by the vanquished, and the fact that the Katyn massacre of Polish officers was never properly investigated casts doubt on the conduct of such trials.
Thompson, and Strutz ed., p. 5



George B. Fowler, Ph.D., Professor of History, University of Pittsburgh:
I shall always have doubts about the whole 'War Crimes Trials,' both in Germany and in Japan. I am unable to understand how one can try an officer for obeying orders or for doing his duty. It makes no difference what flag he fights under. To me, the War Crimes Trials of Nuremberg and elsewhere are one illustration of the greatest danger of our times: mass pressure based largely on little information and perilously close to mass hysteria.
Thompson, and Strutz ed., p. 111



Rear Admiral, U.S.N. Dan V. Gallery:
This kangaroo court at Nuremberg was officially known as the 'International Military Tribunal.' That name is a libel on the military profession. The tribunal was not a military one in any sense. The only military men among the judges were the Russians.... At Nuremberg, mankind and our present civilization were on trial, with men whose own hands were bloody sitting on the judges' seats. One of the judges came from the country which committed the Katyn Forest massacre and produced an array of witnesses to swear at Nuremberg that the Germans had done it.
Thompson, and Strutz ed., pp.XXI-XXII
"There is a principal which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments, and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance -- that principal is contempt prior to investigation."
-- Herbert Spencer

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Re: Nuremberg - Fair Trial or Show Trial ?

Postby Lamprecht » 2 months 3 weeks ago (Sat Sep 14, 2019 8:00 pm)

Great article by John Wear here:
How The Nuremberg Show Trials Perverted Justice & Then American Law Schools: A Case Study Of The Southern Methodist University’s Nuremberg Attorneys
https://archive.is/RMfDU or https://wearswar.wordpress.com/2018/10/ ... attorneys/



The following quotes are from:
Doenitz at Nuremberg: A Re-Appraisal edited by H. K. Thompson, Jr. and Henry Strutz, 2nd edition, Torrance, CA: Institute for Historical Review, 1993.

Hon. Koka Subba Rao, LL.D., Chief Justice of the Supreme Court of India:
My brief comments on the subject relate to two aspects:

(1) Whether the convictions of the accused by the International Tribunal at Nuremberg were supported by international law;

(2) Whether the conviction of the Grand Admiral Karl Doenitz of the German Navy was valid.

Article 6 of the Charter establishing the international military tribunal for the trial of the war criminals authorized the tribunal to try three categories of crimes, namely:

(1) Crimes against peace;

(2) War crimes (crimes against the rules and customs of war) and

(3) Crimes against humanity.

The charges against the accused before the said tribunal were that they in pursuance of their common plan conspired and waged wars of aggression in violation of international treaties, agreements or assurances. The objects of the conspiracy were (1) to abrogate and overthrow the treaty of Versailles and its restrictions on military re-armaments; (2) to acquire territories lost by Germany in the First World War; and (3) to acquire still further territories in continental Europe at the expense of neighboring and other countries. The defendants raised the following points in their defense: (1) There could be no punishment for a crime without a pre-existing law, nullum crimen sine lege, nulla poena sine lege; (2) ex post facto punishment is opposed by the law of all civilized nations; (3) no sovereign power had made aggressive wars a crime at the time of the commission of the alleged criminal acts; (4) aggressive war had not been defined by any law, nor any penalty prescribed, nor any court created for the trial and punishment of offenders accused of such crimes; (5) they were only acting under the orders of Hitler and they were bound to carry out such orders.

The Tribunal rejected the said pleas. It held that the first maxim was only a principle of justice and was not a limitation of sovereignty, that the defendants knew the treaties signed by Germany outlawing recourse to war, particularly that embodied in the pact of Paris, that as Germany in resorting to war broke the said pact, and that as the said pact was legal in international law, those who were parties to the plan to wage the said war had committed an international crime.

In my view the judgement is assailable. It was mainly based on the pact of Paris. But a close scrutiny of that pact discloses that it was merely a record of a common understanding between the signatories and that it did not constitute the declaration of war as an international crime so as to make each individual participant in the war liable for an international crime. Indeed the pact was not acted upon in the context of war waged between some of the signatories and therefore remained a dead letter. If that pact had not the force of international law, as I show it had not, the whole conviction based upon the breach of that law was bad.

The aforesaid two fundamental principles of criminal jurisprudence that there can be no punishment of a crime without a pre-existing law and that ex post facto punishment was opposed to the law of all civilized nations are as much the integral parts of international law as they are of national law. As there was no law at the time the alleged acts were committed declaring the waging of war or a conspiracy to wage a war as war crimes, the said principles of justice would preclude the Tribunal from relying upon the charter for convicting the defendants for war crimes.

That apart, it is not possible to hold definitely who was the aggressor in the conflict between the two groups of countries. In the context of a war the concept of aggressor may only mean the leader of a losing party. If the Allies lost the war, Germany could have with equal plausibility named the Allies as aggressors. In the olden days the conqueror slaughtered the leaders of a defeated country and pillaged and plundered the properties of the people of the said country. The Nuremberg trial is only an institutionalization of the said act of vindictive retaliation. The aggressors destroyed the defeated leaders through the legal process of a Tribunal in disregard of all principles of natural justice. The Judges were nominated by the victorious countries. The defeated leaders were convicted for offences that were not in existence at the time they waged the war. The whole trial was one sided and contrary to principles of natural justice.

Be that as it may, I am of the view that Grand Admiral Karl Doenitz of the German Navy was illegally convicted of the offences. He was a subordinate officer and was acting under the orders of Hitler. If he did not act he would have been court martialed. By no stretch of imagination could it be said that he was a member of the conspiracy to wage the aggressive war against the Allies, nor was there any clear evidence to hold that he acted viciously on his own contrary to the orders issued to him.

At the same time it is necessary to have a judicial tribunal to decide the war crimes on the basis of clear and precise concepts of international law. The United Nations shall bring about an international treaty clearly defining the incidents of a war crime and the judicial procedure for enforcing the said law. It shall constitute an international Tribunal comprised of Judges from all the neutral states so that both the victor as well as the vanquished can be tried by the said Tribunal for the breach of the international law of war crimes. While I therefore agree that the Nuremberg trial did not comply with the requirements of law, I am strongly of the view that it is necessary to have an independent international Tribunal, which could objectively go into the war crimes irrespective of the fact they were committed by the vanquished or the victorious on the basis of a clear and precise international law of war crimes.



Lieutenant General Andrew Davis Bruce, LL.D, third president of the University of Houston:
History repeated itself after the Second World War. In fact, the demand for revenge was far greater, due to the even greater scale of the war in part, but due more to the politically revolutionary character which the struggle took in many areas. There was undeniably a breakdown in the observance of traditional rules of warfare, particularly with regard to civilian populations. It was thought immediately after the end of hostilities that the measures complained of had been largely resorted to by the Axis powers, but subsequent information indicates that certain of our principal allies were guilty of equal or worse excesses. Also, it is doubtless true that new weapons and tactics made observance of the traditional rules difficult, especially where air or submarine warfare was involved.

The circumstances that had prevented proceedings against individual soldiers and statesmen of the defeated countries were absent at the conclusion of the Second World War. The major Allied powers yielded to the pressure of certain of their citizens and instituted a program of proceedings after criminal trials. In order to justify such proceedings, they evolved many new theories of ‘law.’ The soundness of such theories from the technical viewpoint of the lawyer was doubtful, and the wisdom of the program from the standpoint of the statesman appeared even more doubtful. Considerable criticism from responsible opinion was heard at the time, and the events of subsequent years have tended to confirm this criticism.

The Nuremberg trials, which were the best known and may be taken as typical, grouped the alleged crimes of the defendants into four categories: (a) Waging aggressive war, (b) Conspiracy to wage aggressive war, (c) Crimes against humanity, and (d) Violations of the laws of war. The first two are closely related, differing as to technicalities of proof. They both assume that there is such a thing as ‘aggressive’ war which can be legally distinguished from other kinds of war. Of the four categories, only the last had any substance under international law as it had generally been understood prior to the time of the trials.

Prosecutions for violations of the laws of war represented the major exception to the principle that an individual would not be held legally responsible for consequences of military operations in which he was engaged. Such prosecutions can be justified for the reason that all major powers had accepted in principle the existence of such rules, and most had subscribed to multilateral treaties such as the Geneva Convention setting them out in detail. The rules, could as a result, be regarded as a portion of the domestic law of the countries concerned. An officer or soldier violating them, or ordering his subordinates to violate them, could thus be considered to have violated the laws of his own country.

The prosecutions were carried out, and various persons were condemned to death or imprisonment. They have duly suffered the infliction of the penalties adjudged. Emotions have somewhat cooled on the issue in the intervening period. It remains to consider whether the precedent is a sound and desirable one. It is the viewpoint of the writer that the answer should be ‘no’. The grounds for this view are numerous.

First, the precedent cannot do other than gravely handicap the process of ending any war and the restoration of international peace and friendship. Formerly, a government engaged in a losing war had every motive to make peace on terms at the earliest possible moment. Under the new rules, however, the strongest possible motive exists for continuing the war to the bitter end. Substantial numbers of the population may find themselves subject to trial and branded as criminals by the occupying forces. (Entire organizations, it should be remembered, were condemned at Nuremberg). The officers of government who must actually make the decisions, being the likeliest candidates for the noose, are those with the strongest reasons for continuing the struggle.

Secondly, it is impossible as a practical matter to secure an impartial tribunal. Nationals of the victorious powers cannot and will not do other than reflect the positions of their governments as to the true versions of facts and as to the proper law. It is also impossible to avoid the effect of ex post facto law. Since the proceedings can be depended on to lack these basic elements of any civilized system of criminal law, it is unlikely that the vanquished nations or even fair-minded elements of the victor nations will come to accept them as representing justice.

Thirdly, it places an impossible burden of the government and on the higher military officers of a warring state. It is their duty to do all in their power to win. It is also their duty to obey their lawful superiors. They are rightly subject to punishment in this respect. To impose on them liability for carrying out an order which an enemy tribunal may later adjudge unlawful is to punish them for doing what may and probably will appear at the time to be the duty they have sworn to do.

Finally, to engage in measures which, however cloaked in legality, are in fact no more than vengeance and reprisal is to promote the breakdown of the rules which have in recent centuries governed the conduct of warfare among civilized states, and to reinstate the law of the jungle. As a practical matter, the late war crimes trials will be taken by those involved in warfare as establishing only the principle that many of those on the losing side will suffer death or imprisonment. That leads to the thought that one had better not lose, which in turn leads to the conclusion that any method of warfare is justifiable if it brings victory. One must dissent from the view that this is progress.

The conclusion drawn is, therefore, that the result of the program for the trial of ‘war criminals’ was not to advance the cause of civilization or the elimination of warfare among nations, but instead to increase the probability of unlimited warfare and to raise problems of a sort not yet fully apparent.



Roger Peyrefitte, French author of more than 22 books:
There are no war crimes. The crime is the war! This was already obvious after World War I when the Netherlands, where the former Kaiser Wilhelm II had taken refuge, refused to surrender him to the Allies. During this war, while the Allies were contending that they were defending civilization, Lloyd-George had proclaimed that the Kaiser would be shown through the United Kingdom in an iron cage! Later, the Supreme Court of Leipzig acquitted the German chiefs who had been singled out as war criminals. The only evident crimes during a war are those committed against civilians…

The fundamental aim of the Soviets, at the end of the last war [World War II], was to single out war criminals. They knew they were deepening the cleavage between the Occidental powers that the war had separated. This led to the Nuremberg trials…there were no war criminals among the mass of German generals and admirals. They were responsible only for having lost the war. Vae Victis. The only real justification of a war is to be the winner! If the Japanese had won the war, under the same principle they would have attempted to hang those in America who were responsible for the atomic bombing of Hiroshima.

The exaggerations of the Nuremberg Tribunal were proved by the prosecution of Gustav Krupp, whose sole responsibility was to have manufactured war weapons. How can one justify today the life imprisonment of Rudolf Hess, who sought to put an end to the war? And the execution of Field Marshal Keitel, who signed the Armistice of May 1945? The ten-year imprisonment of Grand Admiral Doenitz was a flagrant injustice. And the present effort of Keith Thompson and many other fair Americans to get the historical record straight in the troubled world of today, compels my personal esteem and admiration. I think this feeling should be shared by all those who still believe in ‘historic’ justice.



Hon. Lydio Machado Bandeira de Mello, Dr. Juris. Brazilian educator, jurist and author of more than 40 works on law and philosophy:
I disapprove of everything which was done in that counterfeit court in which the victorious side in the war arrogated to itself the roles of accusing party, indicting part, and judge against individuals pre-selected from the losing side of the war. No trial ought to be held contrary to the fundamental norms of procedural penal law dictated and established by the consensus of men of good will.

There is a basic rule for a fair and valid judgment, based on human rights, namely: Nobody may be judged by a court interested in the condemnation of the accused. Therefore, no court set up by the victors of a war has sufficient moral capacity for judging persons pre-selected as scapegoats among the losers of the war. The victor has hatred towards the defeated who were provoked to fight him, and usually he committed the same crimes as his adversary. If the victor would hang his own war criminals, together with those of the defeated nations, then one could speak of justice. However, even so, it would be usurping the role that should fall to a super-national or world state. Without the existence of a world state, of a world penal code, of a world code of penal procedure, of a super-national judiciary power, and of an army capable of imposing discipline and obedience to the Law on recalcitrant nations, the term ‘war crime’ has no legal meaning. Acts of law are acts of defiance of the law, of disobedience to reason, and today a warring people kills multitudes of civilians (in the majority, women and children) and destroys irreplaceable property acquired by generation after generation. And today’s weapons are so atrocious, so ingeniously invented to destroy and to burn, that Dante would regard the verses of his Inferno as inadequate to express the indescribable torments that such weapons bring about.

A nation that spreads over another a sheet of inevitably deadly gasses or eradicates entire cities from the earth by the explosion of atomic bombs, does not have the right to judge anyone for war crimes; it has already committed the greatest atrocity, equal to no other atrocity; it has killed—amidst unspeakable torments—hundreds of thousands of innocent people.

Let us consider the existence of a world state and a world penal code, and then the designation ‘War Crime’ takes on legal meaning: a ‘War Crime’ would be any act of major atrocity, of unnecessary cruelty, of patent inhumanity, prohibited by the world penal code. And such offense may have been committed both by officials or soldiers of a victorious side and by officials or soldiers of a defeated side. However, even so, defendants would have the right to justify their acts before a world court which would judge them impartially, invoking, in their favor, the same causes impeditive of condemnation that a criminally indicted citizen can invoke in his own national courts. He would have the right: (a) to deny the allegations; (b) to contest or invalidate the evidence brought against him; (c) to allege and prove the bias of the judge; (d) to prove that he acted in lawful defense of his country (or of his troops) with the requisites of lawful defense which the world penal code would establish; (e) to prove that he acted in a state of necessity, i.e. that he practiced a considerably lesser evil in order to avoid a considerably greater evil; (f) to prove that he acted in compliance with an order from higher authority to which he could not refuse obedience, because it was invested with the requisites established by law.

When a group of victorious nations seizes and condemns for war crimes individuals pre-selected among the leaders and mentors of the defeated nations, this is not a judgment—it is a reprisal.



American attorney Warren Magee, who served as defense counsel in the Ministries Trial:
“An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth” is the driving force behind the prosecutions at Nuremberg. While it grieves me to say this, the prosecution staff, its lawyers, research analysts, interpreters, clerks, etc. is largely Jewish. Many are Germans who fled their country and only recently took out American citizenship. Jewish influence was even apparent at the first trial, labeled the IMT. Atrocities against Jews are always stressed above all else…

With persecuted Jews in the background directing the proceedings, the trials cannot be maintained in an objectivity aloof from vindictiveness, personal grievances, and racial desires for revenge…

Basic principles have been disregarded by “new” Americans, many of whom have embedded in their very beings European racial hatreds and prejudices.
Remy, Steven P., The Malmedy Massacre: The War Crimes Trial Controversy, Cambridge, MA: Harvard University Press, 2017, p. 134.



Book by Jewish-American psychologist Gustave Gilbert, who observed and spoke with NSDAP leaders during the trial. It is biased, but in many instances shows how confused the Germans were about these charges.
Image

The Nuremberg Diary
PDF: http://web.archive.org/web/201909150141 ... -diary.pdf
TXT: http://web.archive.org/web/201909150148 ... g/k67BC9cN
Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuremberg_Diary

Example, Robert Ley:
"How can I prepare a defense? Am I supposed to defend myself against all these crimes which I knew nothing about?
If after all the bloodshed of this war some more s-sacrifices are needed to satisfy the v-vengeance of the victors, all well and good... stand us against a wall and shoot us!—All well and good—you are the victors. But why should I be brought before a Tribunal like a ... criminal?"
"There is a principal which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments, and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance -- that principal is contempt prior to investigation."
-- Herbert Spencer

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Re: Nuremberg - Fair Trial or Show Trial ?

Postby Lamprecht » 2 months 3 weeks ago (Sun Sep 15, 2019 7:06 pm)

The Right Honourable The Lord Hankey, Cabinet Secretary, top aide to Prime Minister David Lloyd George and the War Cabinet that directed Britain in the First World War:
The proud story of British justice is occasionally marred by shabby episodes where the national character falls below its accustomed standards of chivalry, honour and common sense. Examples are the burning of Joan of Arc in the market place of Rouen in May, 1431; the trial of King Charles I and his execution in Whitehall on January 30, 1649; the court-martial and execution of Admiral Byng in 1756, “pour enjourager les autres,” as Voltaire remarked at the time; and the six-years’ long impeachment of Warren Hastings before his acquittal in 1791; all of which have been condemned by modern historians. To that list, I doubt not will be added in due course the War Crimes Trials that began with the Nuremberg International Military Tribunal on 20 November, 1945, and ended, so far as Great Britain was concerned, with the trial which is so well described in this volume…

The trials in the British zone of which [Field-Marshal] von Manstein’s was one, had one merit, namely that charges for “Crimes against Peace” and crimes against humanity were not included. But, apart from this, they reveal many of the errors of their predecessors at Nuremberg, Tokyo and in the American zone, e.g.:

- the creation contrary to the United Nations Universal Declaration of Human Rights and of the Geneva Convention on the treatment of Prisoners of War, of new ex post facto crimes, that were not criminal or even illegal at the time the acts to which they refer were committed;
- the ruling out of obedience to orders and Act of State as a defence, which had been powerfully denounced in the House of Lords;
- the admission of evidence that would not be tolerated in any British or American Court, including hearsay evidence at third or fourth hand;
- the denial to defending counsel of an opportunity to be present during examination of witnesses and to cross-examine them;
- the lumping together of charges, each charge including a number of different and unconnected events, which no British Court would accept, and the refusal, contrary to the Geneva Prisoners of War Convention, to allow the accused to retain their rank, badges and decorations, and above all to be tried by officers of their own rank.

The latter operated particularly hardly in the case of Field-Marshal von Manstein who was tried by a Court which included no officer who had exercised the Command in prolonged battle of armies and army groups…

With the scales heavily weighted against the defence before the trial began, and trammeled by precedents established by the Nuremberg Tribunal and Courts in the American Zone, it was well nigh inconceivable that the Court could pronounce on every count in von Manstein’s favour and Mr. Paget deserves great credit for what he has achieved.
Paget, Reginald T., Manstein: His Campaigns and His Trial, London: Collins, 1951, pp. xi-xiii.



The following quotes are from:
'Doenitz at Nuremberg: A Re-Appraisal' edited by H. K. Thompson, Jr. and Henry Strutz, 2nd edition, Torrance, CA: Institute for Historical Review, 1993

Justice of the Supreme Court of Ohio William L. Hart:
“In my judgement, the procedure by which the Nuremberg Tribunal was created and the criminal trials thereunder conducted, was completely fraught with illegality…

The designation and definition by the London Charter of the so-called crimes with which the defendants were charged, after such so-called offences were committed, clearly violated the well-established rule against ex post facto legislation in criminal matters. The generally accepted doctrine is expressed in the adage: “Nullum Crimen Sine Lege”—a person cannot be sentenced to punishment for a crime unless he had infringed a law in force at the time he committed the offense and unless that law prescribed that penalty. Courts in passing on this proposition had declared that: ‘It is to be observed that this maxim is not a limitation of sovereignty, but is a general principle of justice adhered to by all civilized nations.’

In my opinion, there was no legal justification for the trial, conviction or sentence of the so-called ‘war criminals’ by the Nuremberg Tribunal. We have set a bad precedent. It should not be allowed in the future.”


Rear Admiral Henry C. Flanagan, U.S.N. Commander, Transport Divisions, Pacific, World War II:
It goes without saying that the convening authorities of the War Crimes Tribunals had no jurisdiction over the places, persons, or alleged crimes involved in the War Crimes Trials at the times those crimes were alleged to have been committed. Those “War Crimes Tribunals” had the same legal status as a Kangaroo Court and conducted those trials with the same regard for justice as could be expected of a Kangaroo Court.

As regards the brutality aspect, just how a campaign of “mass slaughter,” which legalized war is, can be conducted without someone getting killed and others getting hurt is not apparent…The violations of so-called “humane warfare” by two opposing forces come close to balancing on the “brutality” scoreboard. Naturally, people behind the lines only get one side of the atrocity picture and they do all the publicizing.

From the armed services point of view, if the War Crimes Trials are to become a precedent to be followed in the future we had as well eliminate all national armed services. If a service man cannot carry out the policies and orders of his own government and the senior officers placed over him without running the risk of being tried by an illegally constituted tribunal and hanged by a foreign government, he is not likely to risk his neck very far in support of his own government.

The alternative would have to be International Armed Services and the elimination of all aspects of Nationalism, which appears to be exactly what the originators of the War Crimes Trials doctrine were striving for. Had the originators of the War Crimes Trials doctrine been in any degree motivated by justice and the desire to punish the perpetrators of extreme atrocities in time of war, they would have at least made some attempt to bring to trial hundreds of Russian officials for perpetrating the most heinous atrocities ever afflicted upon civilized peoples against the Poles and Germans and no doubt against all other peoples who have at any time been under Russian control.

The “War Crimes Trials” can only be justified by Marxist, Leninist, Stalinist and New Deal doctrines.


Vice Admiral F. L. Lowe, Assistant Judge Advocate General of the Navy, 1944-1945:
In my opinion, there was no legal principle, and no moral justification, upon which to base the “War Crimes Trials,” before the “International Military Tribunal,” in the case of Admiral Doenitz, or any other military or naval officer whose “crime” was the effective prosecution of his sworn duty to his country. To recognize any such principle of law would be to make a debating society of the military service of any country, including our own, where the officers would have the right to determine whether or not orders received by them were to be obeyed.

I feel that the actions of the Allied leaders at the time were dictated by anger and not by statesmanship. They lost sight of some fundamentals. We had been taught from the first day of entrance into the service that orders from our government were binding upon us under all circumstances and without question. Such, also, is the gist of our oath of office as officers. The only safe ground for the military is embodied in the toast, “my country, may she always be right, but right or wrong, my country.”

If the naval treaty, signed by a few of the powers involved, against unrestricted submarine warfare in relation to merchant vessels, were to be construed as affording a basis for some action against individuals conducting unrestricted submarine warfare, the question arises as to why it did not apply to both sides. We conducted such warfare in the Pacific during the war.

Certainly, there was no international law upon which to base such trials. There are only a few principles of international law upon which there is wide agreement, and no court, or other agency, for the enforcement of those few principles. Some had hoped that the Court of International Justice at The Hague would someday have prestige enough to partially supply this deficiency, but not so.

It seems to me that our position was untenable. It seems to me that the action taken against Admiral Doenitz, and other military officers whose “crimes” were the prosecution of their duties, was not only without precedent but was a mistake. This precedent, if followed, will result in the trials, by the winners, of all military leaders on the losing side in wars of the future, no matter which side is the aggressor or in the wrong. Each side always calls the other the aggressor, regardless of the facts.

Early in the Korean War, when our forces were desperately pressed on the defensive and the North Koreans were at the crest of their offensive, some press dispatches reported that the North Koreans threatened to bring our military officers to trial, when captured, for waging aggressive warfare. It seems to me that the entire episode of the war crimes trials of military officers constitutes an undesirable precedent.


Frank A. W. Lucas, Judge of Appeal, High Commission Territories, Union of South Africa Judge, Transvaal Division, Supreme Court of South Africa:
…When they [the Nuremberg Trials] were instituted, I felt that they were setting a very dangerous precedent…it seems to me that the victorious Allies, who admittedly indulged in the same practice (unrestricted submarine warfare), had no legal, logical, or ethical justification for prosecuting or condemning Admiral Doenitz. In doing so, they laid themselves open to a charge of hypocrisy and an abuse of the power which victory had placed in their hands. It does not seem to me an adequate answer for them to say that they prosecuted the Admiral because the Germans began the unrestricted warfare.


General Olof Gerhard Thornell, Royal Swedish Army, Commander-in chief, Armed Forces of Sweden, 1940-1944, Chief of Military Staff to His Majesty, King Gustav V, 1944-1950:
You are perfectly right in branding the Nuremberg “war crimes trials” in general as violating the common principles for civilized jurisdiction. There seems to be more of vengeance–“vae victis”—than of impartial justice. Especially from a military standpoint is the conviction of such men as Doenitz and Raeder as criminals revolting, and this can be a very dangerous precedent in the future. I think that the Nuremberg Trials did not honor the Western Powers. About unrestricted submarine warfare, I can’t see any moral difference between this form of war and the dropping of bombs over undefended cities.
"There is a principal which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments, and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance -- that principal is contempt prior to investigation."
-- Herbert Spencer

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Re: Nuremberg - Fair Trial or Show Trial ?

Postby Lamprecht » 2 months 3 weeks ago (Mon Sep 16, 2019 9:18 pm)

A few more quotes on the Nuremberg show trials

German Judge Dr. Wilhelm Stäglich, who visited Auschwitz several times during World War II, wrote:
The Nuremberg IMT trial transcripts likewise cannot—as we have seen in another connection—be considered a reliable historical source or even merely a standard of comparison for other documents, as here in the case of the Höss memoirs. For the testimonies produced under Nuremberg “law” contained anything but historical truth. This is the conclusion which has been reached by all objective and unbiased observers of this judicial farce. We have already expounded on the fact that Höss, after his capture, was subjected to the most inhumane treatment and at every stage of his imprisonment placed under various kinds of pressure…

…In the Nuremberg trials, the basic rule was that a “fact of common knowledge” did not require proof. It was enough for the court to take “judicial notice” thereof. The same device was employed in the Auschwitz Trial. Since the post-war “re-education” of the German people, founded on Zionist and Bolshevik atrocity propaganda, had made the “gas chamber” legend into a “fact of common knowledge,” the judges in the Auschwitz Trial had to take “judicial notice” of it, in a certain sense, since otherwise they would have been subjected to the most grievous professional disadvantages and personal attacks.
Stäglich, Wilhelm, Auschwitz: A Judge Looks at the Evidence, Institute for Historical Review, 1990, pp. 200-201, 259. (PDF: https://codoh.com/media/files/staeglich-auschwitz.pdf)



Howard Buffett is the father of world-famous investor Warren Buffett. Howard Buffett was an attorney and four-term U.S. Congressman from Nebraska. This is what Howard Buffett said about the Nuremberg Trials:
Aside from the horrendous demand for “Unconditional Surrender,” certainly the most stupid error of America’s World War II policies was to sponsor and participate in the so-called Nuremberg Trials. From the standpoint of simple law and justice, these trials were a travesty on Anglo-Saxon traditions of jurisprudence. Equally significant, they set a precedent that may someday haunt our children when future wars take place. From the standpoint of bringing peace and reconciliation among the Western people of the world, the trials did nothing but harm. It is fortunate for the West that the German people have chosen to be charitable in their response to this tragic mistake. As a brave and patriotic officer, Admiral Doenitz deserves the respect of thinking people everywhere for the moral stamina he exhibited in answer to the attacks upon his devotion to duty and record of naval competence.
Doenitz at Nuremberg: A Re-Appraisal edited by H. K. Thompson, Jr. and Henry Strutz, 2nd edition, Torrance, CA: Institute for Historical Review, 1993.



U.S. Attorney George W. Armstrong:
Twenty-four Nazi leaders and seven Nazi organizations were indicted, viz: Reich Cabinet, Leadership Corp of the Nazi party, S.S., S. D., Gestapo, S. A. and the General staff and high command of the German armed forces. The indictment which exceeded 23,000 words in length was signed by Robert H. Jackson, et al…

It was in fact a Zionist trial prosecuted by pro-Zionist attorneys before a pro-Zionist Court against the defendants, for the offense of being opposed to Zionism and communism…

The Judges made the law, prescribed the penalty, and enforced it. If it is to serve as a precedent for the future, it means that the officers of the defeated in war must be punished. Ex post facto law is prohibited by the British Magna Carta as well as by our Bill of Rights. It is contrary to justice and our Christian civilization. The mass trial was contrary to every principle of law and justice and Christian civilization. There is no precedent except the [Communist] Russian purge trials.
Armstrong, George W., The Zionists and Zionist Wall Street, Mountain City, TN.: Sacred Truth Publishing, 2017, p. 113.



German historian Udo Walendy:
…the distinguishing feature of the Nuremberg proceedings was the countless infringements of the law. It is in contravention of every legal norm

1) when the victor is also the judge and has nominated himself for this office;

2) when his function is world prosecuting attorney and lawmaker at the same time;

3) when he condemns actions which hitherto were neither provided for by statute nor were in contravention of international law (e.g. the preparatory planning of a campaign by a General Staff officer or the supplying of arms by a contractor);

4) when he repeals legal clauses and systems of values which were binding on the defendants and the entire defeated Nation and establishes arbitrarily new norms that fulfill his purposes: “Crimes against Peace”, “Crimes against Humanity”, “Support of an unlawful State” etc., and then will interpret these norms dialectically;

5) when he declares German reprisals in partisan warfare retroactively as crimes and punishable as criminal acts, while the causes provoking them are disregarded;

6) when he withholds documents from the defence while serving other documents at short notice, refuses witnesses for the defence and rejects the motion to hear evidence, and when the defence is threatened also with arrest and, indeed, is taken into custody just as soon as they make a protest against some breach of the law;

7) when he distorts the meaning of documents by means of shortening, by falsifying or by shifting of emphasis, and when he then adjudges as authentic these papers so badly mangled or totally falsified;

8 ) when he trivializes or conceals decisive interconnections and contexts;

9) when witnesses are being kept in long-term imprisonment and are put under pressure with threats of handing them over to the GPU or bringing charges against them, thus coercing them into making false statements and committing perjury;

10) when he allows agents of the Victor Power to appear as witnesses;

11) when he brings in procedures that label just about everybody as members of a “criminal organization” and, therefore, can be treated as a criminal offender;

12) when he, after having availed himself of his newly created “legal clauses” for his vengeful purposes, cancels them again immediately, thus denying them to all other nations—and, consequently, to future international law.
Walendy, Udo, Truth for Germany: The Guilt Question of the Second World War, Washington, D.C., The Barnes Review, 2013, pp. 442-443. https://archive.org/details/TruthForGermany/
"There is a principal which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments, and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance -- that principal is contempt prior to investigation."
-- Herbert Spencer

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Re: Nuremberg - Fair Trial or Show Trial ?

Postby Lamprecht » 2 months 2 weeks ago (Thu Sep 19, 2019 8:13 pm)

American historian and journalist William Henry Chamberlain:
International hypocrisy probably reached its highest point in the trials of thousands of Germans and Japanese for alleged war crimes. That some German and Japanese actions, and some actions of the victorious powers as well, went far beyond the somewhat elastic conception of the rules of civilized warfare cannot be denied. There would be a case for the impartial trial of all persons charged with such actions before a neutral tribunal.

But the International Tribunal, composed of American, British, French, and Soviet judges, which sat in judgment at Nuremberg and Tokyo, and the subsequent tribunals set up by the occupying powers in their respective zones, lacked the most elementary sanctions of a court of law. The prosecutors were also both judge and jury. There was no semblance of impartiality in these trials of the vanquished by the victors. Nor was there any pretense of punishment being meted out evenhandedly for all infractions of law and humanity. Only Germans and Japanese were brought to trial.

Most of the major offenses against the Nazis—plotting and waging aggressive war, forcible seizure of alien territory, impressment for slave labor, looting and undernourishment of the population in occupied countries, and mass murder of both soldiers and civilians—could be charged just as convincingly against one or all of the victorious powers.
Chamberlain, William Henry, “The Bankruptcy of a Policy,” Perpetual War for Perpetual Peace, Newport Beach, CA: Institute for Historical Review, 1993, pp. 533-534. https://web.archive.org/web/20190920010 ... 982%29.pdf



Paul Rassinier, a member of the French resistance and survivor of Buchenwald and Dora concentration camps during World War II, wrote in regard to estimates of Jewish losses at the Nuremberg trial:
The mechanism of this operation, which is so crude that it stares you in the face and which is found in all of the figuring of all of these people, is quite simple: in 1945, during the post-war turmoil, the Jewish communities of every country were supposedly invited to state very quickly what their losses had been so that Justice Jackson could take them into account in his speech for the prosecution at the Nuremberg Trial where such figures were prefaced with the expression: “it is estimated in full cognizance...”
...
It was another one of the machiavellianisms of Nuremberg that every time that the prosecution brought forth an accusation for which they would not or could not give the source they used the expression “in full cognizance” or “from an assured source”—that was generally the case when the source was Jewish—and it was up to the accused to prove their innocence. At Nuremberg it was not up to the prosecution to prove guilt since the Allies recognized early that their adherence to the Anglo-American jurisprudential presumption of “innocent until proven guilty” would deny them the “convictions” which they sought.
Rassinier, Paul, The Holocaust Story and the Lies of Ulysses, Costa Mesa, CA: The Institute for Historical Review, 1978, pp. 343, 384. http://web.archive.org/web/201909200058 ... 2-14.shtml



British Air Vice-Marshal Hugh Champion de Crespigny, R.A.F., Allied Military Governor, Schleswig-Holstein, 1946-47:
[Karl] Doenitz is no more guilty of a war crime than others on our side…The unrestricted submarine warfare directed by Admiral Doenitz against Allied shipping was no more of a crime than Allied mass bombing of German towns and cities…The excuse frequently offered that the towns and cities bombed contained military objectives will not hold water, as it could equally be applied to ships of which all, of any consequence, were making their voyages in furtherance of the Allied war effort…The Nuremberg Court cannot rightly be called a ‘Military Tribunal’ as political considerations were in prominence, to the exclusion of justice…It is my considered opinion that the Nuremberg Trials violated the reputation for justice so long held by the British and American peoples, and that many of the findings contravened our most sacred constitutional principles. It is true to say that when party politics are allowed to influence justice, the latter vanishes, and that is the picture which we see now—years after the event.
Doenitz at Nuremberg: A Re-Appraisal edited by H. K. Thompson, Jr. and Henry Strutz, 2nd edition, Torrance, CA: Institute for Historical Review, 1993, p. 10.



Michael Francis Doyle, LL.D., International lawyer and Papal Chamberlain Member of the Permanent Court of Arbitration, The Hague, President, Electoral College of the U.S., 1945-1949:
I regard the Nuremberg ‘war crimes trials’ as one of the worst reflections upon enlightened leadership in world affairs as ever has been known. These trials by victor nations were for the purpose of punishing those of the opposite military forces for simply performing their duty which common honor required to be done. The trials really were a disgrace upon all who participated therein. Having no sympathy whatever with the defendants in their military objectives, yet I respected their duty to obey the orders issued to them by their country and its leaders. It is especially regretted that our country participated in the prosecution. It is hoped that such a situation will never be repeated. It is a stigma on American ideas of justice. As a former member of the Permanent Court of Arbitration at The Hague, I am deeply interested in the cause of peace. Peace can never be advanced by such methods as were developed during these alleged trials. Peace can only be made permanent under Law and not in defiance of Law.
Ibid.
"There is a principal which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments, and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance -- that principal is contempt prior to investigation."
-- Herbert Spencer

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Re: Nuremberg - Fair Trial or Show Trial ?

Postby Lamprecht » 2 months 2 weeks ago (Sat Sep 21, 2019 8:28 pm)

Major General Ulysses S. Grant, III, President of The American Peace Society:
I do feel that the trial of officers and even civilian officials was a most unfortunate and unjustified violation of international law. I am afraid our administration allowed itself to be led on by the Soviet’s desire for vengeance, and I am sure we will have cause to regret our participation both because it was inconsistent with our previous more generous and more gentlemanly attitude, and because it gave a precedent for the victor to revenge himself on individuals after any future war. Such action in violation of international law and purely to vent one’s anger on individuals acting under orders is sure to come back and plague us in the future. I am glad to know that others appreciate this and that it may be brought to the attention of the American people at appropriate times.
Doenitz at Nuremberg: A Re-Appraisal edited by H. K. Thompson, Jr. and Henry Strutz, 2nd edition, Torrance, CA: Institute for Historical Review, 1993


Taylor Caldwell, British-born American novelist:
I have been boiling mad for years over the ‘war crimes trials,’ which I think were despicable and contemptible, and smack more of ancient Rome’s barbarism than of a so-called civilized country. Our country’s hands are not free of blood and crime, in spite of our vaunted ‘democracy’ and ‘noble aspirations,’ etc., etc., ad nauseum. Not only were the ‘war crimes trials’ one of the blackest spots of our recent black (and Red) history, but the bombing of the only two Christian cities in Japan in August 1945 via the atom bomb calls to high heaven for retribution…

To say that the trial of Admiral Karl Doenitz is a ‘barefaced hypocrisy,’ as you state in your letter, is the understatement of all time. It is outrageous that a man serving his country in all honesty and patriotism should be considered a ‘criminal’ by a country which has its own share of criminals, and not honest and patriotic ones, either…
Ibid.


British journalist Henry Fairlie:
The whole majesty of the Western heritage of the law was used to subvert that heritage in the Nuremberg Tribunal. Weighty jurists in every Western country (but not Russia) protested against this travesty of the Western legal system. So did historians. So did merely cultured and moral men and women. If the victors were to “try” the vanquished for war crimes, then they should try themselves for often committing the same crimes. Who would try Air Chief Marshal Sir Arthur Travers “Bomber” Harris, the architect of the policy of saturation bombing of German cities? But it was not only a matter of our own “war crimes.” If it was right to use the apparatus of the law to punish those responsible for exceptional crimes like the Holocaust, it was wrong to use it to punish errors of judgment and statecraft such as every defeated regime seems to have committed. “We used the methods of the enemy”—and used them in peace at Nuremberg.
Henry Fairlie, "How the Good War Went Bad," The New Republic, May 20, 1985, pp. 18 ff.
"There is a principal which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments, and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance -- that principal is contempt prior to investigation."
-- Herbert Spencer

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Re: Nuremberg - Fair Trial or Show Trial ?

Postby Lamprecht » 1 month 2 weeks ago (Mon Oct 21, 2019 9:19 pm)

More expert quotes on the Nuremberg show trials:
“The conduct of the American judges at Nuremberg was, to say the very least, of the most questionable propriety. One of the judges, Francis Biddle, reveals in his article on Nuremberg in American Heritage, Vol. XIII, No. 5, August, 1962, that the U.S. judges knowingly permitted the Soviet prosecutor to admit false evidence against the defendants (page 70). Further, Justice Jackson hosted a party for visiting Andrei Vishinsky (notorious Soviet prosecutor in the bloody Soviet purges), at which party the American judges joined in a toast by Vishinsky, ‘To the German prisoners, may they all be hanged!’ (page 71). By any ethical standards of any bar association in the western world, such ‘judges’ should have been disqualified and themselves charged. Further, these ‘judges’ acquiesced in arbitrary and ever-changing ‘rules of evidence,’ accepting written depositions against prisoners charged with capital crimes, thus denying them the right of cross-examination. Section IV, paragraph (e) of the London Agreement of Aug. 8, 1945, provided that, ‘A defendant shall have the right through himself or through his counsel to present evidence at the Trial in support of his defense, and to cross-examine any witness called by the Prosecution.’ ”

-The Editor’s Introduction, on page XIII of the book Doenitz at Nuremberg: A Re-Appraisal edited by H. K. Thompson, Jr. and Henry Strutz, 2nd edition, Torrance, CA: Institute for Historical Review, 1993.
"The Tribunal claimed in theory the right — it certainly had the power --to declare any act a war-crime. But it interpreted Article 6 of the Charter creating it, as excluding from its consideration any act committed by the victorious powers. As a consequence any act proved to have been committed by the victorious powers could not be declared by the Tribunal a war-crime. For this reason, the indiscriminate bombing of civilians which had indisputably been initiated by Great Britain was excluded from consideration as a war crime by the Tribunal."

-F.J.P. Veale, English jurist and author. Thompson, and Strutz ed., p.146
"To me the Nuremberg trials have always been totally inexcusable and a horrible travesty of justice. This is especially true when such trials are used to punish the men of the military services who were directing those services in time of war, and thus giving nothing more than an expression of the basic purposes of their whole adult life. In the execution of their wartime duties, these officers naturally carried out, to the letter, the orders and directions which they received from the head of their government.
If an officer... should ever, for one instant, consider disregard or disobedience to his government's orders, all cohesion in the military services would fail, from that moment, and the military services would fail in the one reason for their existence - the waging of successful war in the interests of their country."


-Rear Admiral Robert A. Theobald, U.S.N. Thompson, and Strutz ed., p.39
"I have always regarded the Nuremberg Trials as a travesty upon justice and the farce was made even more noisome with Russia participating as one of the judges."

-Charles Callan Tansill, Ph.D. Thompson, and Strutz ed., p. 47
"The war crimes trials were a reversion to the ancient practice of the savage extermination of a defeated enemy and particularly of its leaders. The precedent set by these trials will continue to plague their authors."

-Admiral Husband E. Kimmel, U.S.N. Thompson, and Strutz ed., p. 42
"I could never accept the Nuremberg Trials as representing a fair and just procedure."

-Dr. Igor I. Sikorsky. Thompson, and Strutz ed., p.3


Also:

Nuremberg: Woe to the Vanquished
https://codoh.com/library/document/2734/

'The Nuremberg trials, 70 years later' / Lies & Spin
viewtopic.php?t=11450
"There is a principal which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments, and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance -- that principal is contempt prior to investigation."
-- Herbert Spencer

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Re: Nuremberg - Fair Trial or Show Trial ?

Postby Lamprecht » 1 month 1 week ago (Wed Oct 30, 2019 7:09 pm)

BroncoBuff wrote:In my fairly extensive experience, I promise you people will say damn near anything to avoid even 30 days in jail, much less death.

BroncoBuff has been destroyed in previous posts, but I would just like to point out this recent thread I made on false confessions:

The Psychology of False Confessions / Why people confess to crimes they did not commit
viewtopic.php?t=12804
Where you will learn: "Between 1/5 to 1/4 of criminal exonerations using DNA evidence involved people that "confessed" to a crime that they did not actually commit."

And another post from the following thread:
Challenge to Believer 'Pon' on so called "Eyewitnesses"
viewtopic.php?p=94190#p94190
As for [Dr. Johann Paul] Kremer's "Confessions" as a prisoner in captivity, this was to save his own life. He had every reason to tell the lies his captors wanted to hear. It was a successful strategy. The proof is in the pudding so to speak: he was not executed, and his second sentence of 10 years imprisonment he did not even have to serve! Imagine if he said "Nobody was gassed! It's a lie!" he would have certainly been executed -- that was no defense at all. He was 77 years old at the time, who can blame him for not wanting to spend his last moments alive imprisoned?

Also in that post, multiple examples of Auschwitz workers who denied the exterminations/gassings are provided.
"There is a principal which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments, and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance -- that principal is contempt prior to investigation."
-- Herbert Spencer


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