Western Jews deported to Transnistria?

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Hebden
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Western Jews deported to Transnistria?

Postby Hebden » 1 decade 6 years ago (Fri Jan 03, 2003 7:50 pm)

One can always find something of interest tucked away at Mr. Irving's website. Have a look at this letter which contends that some Western Jews, assumed to have arrived and been gassed at Auschwitz, may have ended up in Transnistria instead (albeit most of them perished anyway):

Not all Auschwitz trains went to Auschwitz In connection with the death camps, I would note that some point before reaching Auschwitz (and also Treblinka), the cars of the trains coming from countries such as France, Belgium, and the Netherlands were decoupled.

Some cars went to Auschwitz, and some went to other places in the East, including the German-administered Ukraine and Transnistria.

According to a document from 1942, 26,200 French, Belgian, and Dutch Jews were shipped to Transnistria up to some time in the summer (?) of 1942. Most Belgian Jews deported in 1942, allegedly to Auschwitz, apparently reached Transnistria. Reports from 1943, indicate the arrival of Jews from Theresienstadt to Transnistria. These people had been sent to the "model ghetto" from Germany, Austria, Slovakia, and perhaps Bohemia and Moravia (I do not remember the details, although I have the sources). The reports also indicate the sending of Bulgarian Jews to Transnistria (not all of them went to Treblinka) in 1943, as well as the deportation and execution of Polish Jews by the Germans in Transnistria.


(http://www.fpp.co.uk/Letters/History/Mayer210698.html#b)

A follow-on discussion provided more information but also included a dismissal of the evidence from a certain Mr. Ioanid of the USHMM:

"A telegram sent on June 22, 1942, by Ambassador [Jacques] Truelle [the wartime French Ambassador in Bucharest] to Paris reports that 8,600 Jews from Holland, 11,600 Jews from France, and 7,000 Jews from Belgium have been sent by the Germans to this region [i.e., Transnistria - G.P.] The entire operation of this slow process of putting people to death, a little known aspect of the Final Solution, is found here outlined in an arresting manner:

'Transport seems to have taken place under horrendous conditions, and neither children, the old, nor women were spared. The Jews were apparently housed in ruined barracks where German troops had previously been quartered. Their plight is worse than wretched. They have brought with them only 50 kilograms of baggage and 10 marks per person. The German and Romanian authorities use them for various kinds of work without feeding them or paying them. No one is let off, not even the sick or children, who even if they are only eight years old are treated as adults. As a result of this kind of particularly cruel treatment, mortality rates are about 30 percent per day. Among other things, various contagious diseases are beginning to show up in view of the primitieve housing conditions, without any hygienic facilities whatsoever. On June 13, the Romanian authorities on their own sent 4,683 Jewish men, women and children away from Cernauti'"


In term so called the deportation of the Jews from Western Europe to Transnistria there is no documentary evidence proving that Jews deported from various Western or Central European countries arrived to Transnistria.

There is one exception, a document from Quai d'Orsay, mentioning an unsubstantiated rumor in this sense.

My affirmation is based on about 800,000 war time documents originating from various Romanian, Moldavian and Ukrainian archives which exist on microfilm in our Museum. Alexianu the governor of Transnistria was very much worried and aware about every new transport of Jews deported to Transnitria. Again no trace of these Jews in the territory under his administration. Finally not one survivor from Transistria mentions the arrival of the Jews from Central and Western Europe in this territory.


(http://www.fpp.co.uk/online/98/08/Transnistria150898.html)

Revisionists have always been confronted with the problem of accounting for the fate of tens of thousands of deported Western Jews. For instance, we know that of approximately 97,000 Jews from France, Holland and Belgium deported eastwards by the end of 1942, only 31,000 were registered in Auschwitz. In addition, several thousand, who detrained at Cosel (50km west of Auschwitz) are said to have been employed by the Organisation Schmelt in Upper Silesia. The shortfall is over 50,000.

We don't know on what information the estimates for the workers with Organisation Schmelt are based. We think its possible that thousands more Jews may have been used there. Another possibility is that those unemployable Jews, assumed to have been gassed in Auschwitz, were actually settled in the Lublin region, as were many of the Slovakian Jews deported that year.

Naturally, if we could trace up to 25,000 Western Jews to Transnistria that would be a significant development and would certainly deal a serious blow to the standard Auschwitz history.

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 6 years ago (Fri Jan 03, 2003 8:24 pm)

I'm afraid you have it backwards, it is incumbent upon those who allege mass murder to prove their case...not vice versa. Just claiming they were murdered doesn't mean they were.

The reports also indicate the sending of Bulgarian Jews to Transnistria (not all of them went to Treblinka) in 1943, as well as the deportation and execution of Polish Jews by the
Germans in Transnistria.

I see no reports, only a allegations of "reports".
In term so called the deportation of the Jews from Western Europe to Transnistria there is no documentary evidence proving that Jews deported from various Western or Central
European countries arrived to Transnistria.

Again, there is no evidence they were killed, that is the logical conclusion; the onus is upon the accuser. And ofcourse, assuming there are legitimate transport records, any documents indicating arrival in Transnistria could simply have been removed from the public eye...document tampering was something the Communists were not above.

So many alleged massed murders, so little forensic/physical evidence.

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Postby Sailor » 1 decade 6 years ago (Sat Jan 04, 2003 9:44 pm)

Hebden wrote: Revisionists have always been confronted with the problem of accounting for the fate of tens of thousands of deported Western Jews.

And not only of Western Jews.
If one does not accept the idea of extermination camps (Treblinka, Belzec, Sobibor etc) then the question has to be answered about the whereabout of all those Jews who were deported to these camps.

For example it seems to be verified that about 350,000 Jews were deported from the Warsaw Ghetto and Warsaw district to Treblinka (Stroop Report, “Judenrat” (Jewish Councill) of the Ghetto, railroad schedules). The official estimate is actually higher, at least 700,000 and probably 870,000 deportees to Treblinka.
If these people were not exterminated in Treblinka, and there does not seem to be any evidence of massgraves (unless the Polish did a sloppy job in 1945 trying to find the graves), then where are they?
To say that the bodies were first burried, disinterred, then cremated in the open-air and then made to disappear without leaving a trace (because the Germans are so smart) is to me a cop out.

Here is an interesting read:
Steffen Werner: The Second Babylonian Captivity, The Fate of the Jews
in Eastern Europe since 1941
http://vho.org/GB/Books/tsbc/index.html

Werner made a study of varying population densities in the areas and years of interest within the Soviet Union and he discovered, if I remember correctly, that a population increase occurred in the area southwest of Minsk of about 400,000 people for the years 1941-1943.
It would be interesting to find out more details about this population increase. It would have to be checked out at the site by reviewing official archives.

Now who in his right mind now would risk his professional or academic career, monetary penalties or even imprisonment and go and look what happened to the deported Jews?
According to the Bundeskriminalamt (Federal Criminal Office) in the year 2000 there were over 15,000 judicial persecutions of political delinquencies, mostly in connection with the Jewish Holocaust story. :cry:

The Jews themselves don't seem to care.

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Postby Hebden » 1 decade 6 years ago (Sun Jan 05, 2003 6:22 pm)

Sailor wrote:
Hebden wrote: Revisionists have always been confronted with the problem of accounting for the fate of tens of thousands of deported Western Jews.

And not only of Western Jews.
If one does not accept the idea of extermination camps (Treblinka, Belzec, Sobibor etc) then the question has to be answered about the whereabout of all those Jews who were deported to these camps.


There is a sense of the fantastic about it. Having to choose the least incredible explanation for the apparent disappearance of two million Polish Jews. The more we examine the evidence, the more bewildered we are.

Here is an interesting read:
Steffen Werner: The Second Babylonian Captivity, The Fate of the Jews
in Eastern Europe since 1941
http://vho.org/GB/Books/tsbc/index.html

Werner made a study of varying population densities in the areas and years of interest within the Soviet Union and he discovered, if I remember correctly, that a population increase occurred in the area southwest of Minsk of about 400,000 people for the years 1941-1943.


Are you sure that wasn't Army Group Centre? Anyway, we'll add Mr. Werner's book to our reading list.


According to the Bundeskriminalamt (Federal Criminal Office) in the year 2000 there were over 15,000 judicial persecutions of political delinquencies, mostly in connection with the Jewish Holocaust story. :cry:


What would constitute such an offence? The simple possession of revisionist literature or something more active?

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 6 years ago (Sun Jan 05, 2003 9:46 pm)

Hebden says:
There is a sense of the fantastic about it. Having to choose the least incredible explanation for the apparent disappearance of two million Polish Jews. The more we examine the evidence, the more bewildered we are.

Nothing bewildering about it, there is no credible evidence that 2,000,000 Polish Jews were exterminated.
We know that the communists deported vast numbers of Polish Jews to the interior of the Soviet Union and that the Germans deported many Polish Jews to the Soviet controlled area of Poland (which was about 60% of Poland), and from there the Soviets sent them to the USSR.
The Germans also sent many to Auschwitz, which then sent them as laborers to scores of other camps. AND many were simply left in Poland. No mystery whatsoever. The chaos of war makes precision a bit difficult, but in general it's not difficult to explain.

Hebden asks an important question:
What would constitute such an offence? The simple possession of revisionist literature or something more active?


I would be curious what the exact limits are for Germans; and now, most Europeans who live under the grip of the EU Marxist Thought Police. From what I can see it's not very well defined and is used at the convenience of the Believers.

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Postby Sailor » 1 decade 6 years ago (Sun Jan 05, 2003 11:37 pm)

Hebden wrote: Are you sure that wasn't Army Group Centre? Anyway, we'll add Mr. Werner's book to our reading list.


If no time to read the book, here is a book review about Werner’s book.
A BABYLONIAN CAPTIVITY
http://www.revilo-oliver.com/rpo/babylon.htm

What would constitute such an offence? The simple possession of revisionist literature or something more active?

I am not sure. But I believe that one has to be active in public to get into trouble. And it probably depends also on how the Jews react to public criticism of the Holocaust story.

As far as I know representatives of the German Government also contacted members of the US Congress to stop Holocaust criticism on the Internet. And they also contacted the Russian Government to block any further access of Revisionists to the Moscow archives.

In such an environment it seems to me unjust to request from the Revisionists to show where the Jews were resettled to after they left the transfer camps, and then block with any means available the Revisionists from doing their research.

Another point about the resetlled Jews:
Mattogno/Jürgen wrote in their book about Treblinka on page 344 top paragraph:

Incredibly not a single German report about such massive population shifts survived.


But Korher who prepared for Himmler a statistical report about these deportations of the Jews, stated that in 1943 the Reichssicherheitshauptamt (RSHA) gave him the data about the Jewish deportations.

Where are these deportation reports which the SS used in order to prepare the data for Korherr? Were they destroyed, or are they in some archive safely stored away? With these reports it may be considerably easier for the Revisionists to find out where the Jewish deportees were transported to after they left the transfer camps like Treblinka.

fge

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Postby Malle » 1 decade 6 years ago (Mon Jan 06, 2003 1:01 am)

Hebden wrote:What would constitute such an offence? The simple possession of revisionist literature or something more active?


No one knows for sure! They apply these laws with the very well known "Rubber Band Technique". If they want you, <font color=red>THEY GET YOU!</font> :twisted:

My personal view:
Most people in US and elsewhere believe that England is a great power in Europe today. That isn't the case (maybe military however). The two economic locomotives in Europe today are Germany and France. If they decide something together, it will actually be the law. Now, if you ask our EU politicians, this is not true, we have a democracy they say.

As both Germany and France has laws against Holocaust revisionism, all EU countries will soon have them. Ever heard of lobby groups? They attack almost every day. :x

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 6 years ago (Mon Jan 06, 2003 2:09 am)

Sailor said:
Where are these deportation reports which the SS used in order to prepare the data for Korherr? Were they destroyed, or are they in some archive safely stored away? With these reports it may be considerably easier for the Revisionists to find out where the Jewish deportees were transported to after they left the transfer camps like Treblinka.


IMO, these reports will never be found as I'm sure they've been plucked out by the propagandists. In fact, it seems quite certain that this has happened in many a case. Why should people who benefit from the lies allow documents that clearly debunk them.
Having said that, I still believe that there is plenty of other information that shoots down the '2,000,000 Polish Jews exterminated' lie, as well as the bizarre viewpoint of '6,000,000' total Jews murdered.

I do like Sailor's point:
...it seems to me unjust to request from the Revisionists to show where the Jews were resettled to after they left the transfer camps, and then block with any means available the Revisionists from doing their research.

Some folks can't handle the truth, so they supress it.

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Postby Hebden » 1 decade 6 years ago (Mon Jan 06, 2003 12:23 pm)

Hannover wrote:Nothing bewildering about it, there is no credible evidence that 2,000,000 Polish Jews were exterminated.
We know that the communists deported vast numbers of Polish Jews to the interior of the Soviet Union.


You may know, we don't. Please consult your source(s) to elaborate on these mass deportations; numbers, dates and destinations.

and that the Germans deported many Polish Jews to the Soviet controlled area of Poland (which was about 60% of Poland)....


Numbers and dates, again.

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Postby Hebden » 1 decade 6 years ago (Mon Jan 06, 2003 12:35 pm)

What would constitute such an offence? The simple possession of revisionist literature or something more active?
I am not sure. But I believe that one has to be active in public to get into trouble. And it probably depends also on how the Jews react to public criticism of the Holocaust story. fge


We find it hard to believe there are thousands of active Holocaust revisionists in Germany. What is the basis for your claim that the majority of these 15,000 political prosecutions are connected to the Holocaust?

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 6 years ago (Mon Jan 06, 2003 1:22 pm)

- no physical/forensic evidence...2,000,000 Polish Jews, but no commensurate mass graves

- don't have the exact references right now..will get them for you....but the Soviets themselves stated that mass deportations occurred, German miltary diaries indicate that Jews were gone from many towns when their units arrived in the former Russian sector of Poland; and as is normal in any war, many people fled the onrushing army

- there is plenty of information to show that laborers were sent from Auschwitz to other camps..does Hebden doubt that workers were sent from Auschwitz to other sites?

- and again, show us that the 2,000,000 Polish Jews were murdered, and then try that for the mythical '6,000,000'...
plus the 6,000,000 'others' that are alleged

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Postby Sailor » 1 decade 6 years ago (Mon Jan 06, 2003 2:52 pm)

Hebden wrote: We find it hard to believe there are thousands of active Holocaust revisionists in Germany. What is the basis for your claim that the majority of these 15,000 political prosecutions are connected to the Holocaust?

The official persecutions of Holocaust Revisionists in Germany is very closely watched by German Revisionists. I will post the site where I found the data a little later. I don’t have it handy right now. The data is allegedly based on official publications by the Government.

The intent of posting in this thread data about official persecutions of Revisionists in Germany was not to change the subject to freedom of speech, but to illustrate the difficulties which face German Revisionists at this time to do any research in this area, like looking for deported Jews in Western Russia.

fge

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Postby Hebden » 1 decade 6 years ago (Mon Jan 06, 2003 3:28 pm)

Hannover wrote:- no physical/forensic evidence...2,000,000 Polish Jews, but no commensurate mass graves

- don't have the exact references right now..will get them for you


We can wait. We are particularly looking forward to the evidence supporting the claim, which is new to us, that the Germans delivered Polish Jews into Soviet hands (which must, of course, refer to the period pre-Operation Barbarossa).

- there is plenty of information to show that laborers were sent from Auschwitz to other camps..does Hebden doubt that workers were sent from Auschwitz to other sites?


We are rather more interested in the camps of Treblinka, Belzec, Sobibor and Majdanek at this time.

The well-known report of Mr. Richard Korherr recorded a total of 1,274,166 Jews processed through camps in the Government-General in the course of their evacuation to the Russian East. Confirmation that these camps were the so-called Reinhardt camps turned up in a recently discovered (2001) British intercept of a memo sent by Mr. Herman Hofle from Lublin to Berlin.

See:

http://www.fpp.co.uk/History/General/Korherr/Heim311242.html

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Postby Sailor » 1 decade 6 years ago (Mon Jan 06, 2003 3:42 pm)

The site is:
Censorship in Germany / Zensur in Deutschland
http://www.vho.org/censor/GB

I noticed that they expanded the numbers to the year 2001.
(See the Table). I don't know how correct the numbers are. It is alway good to be cautious with this stuff.
Why not say: There are many who are persecuted in Germany because of their outspokenness about matters Holocaust?

There is also reference made to the Air-Photo Site on a German pornographic tabloid, which finds the air-photo site “disgusting”. Now we know it.
:D

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Postby Sailor » 1 decade 6 years ago (Mon Jan 06, 2003 4:18 pm)

Hebden wrote: We are particularly looking forward to the evidence supporting the claim, which is new to us, that the Germans delivered Polish Jews into Soviet hands (which must, of course, refer to the period pre-Operation Barbarossa).

There must be a misunderstanding somewhere. I never heard about Jews being deported to the Soviet Union by the Germans before they invaded Russia.

Mattogno/Graf wrote quite a bit about their findings about the fate of Jews. They mentioned among others Reitlinger’s “The Final Solution” who quoted from a Soviet source (Rassegna sovietica, August-September 1951):

When Hitler invaded Poland in the year 1939, tens of thousands of Jews fled to East Poland from where they later arrived in the Soviet Union.

E. Kulischer, Jewish statistician, estimated that 500,000 Jews from East Poland fled into parts of the Soviet Union which came never under the control of the Germans. He also believes that 1,100,000 Russian Jews fled further into the Soviet Union before the Germans arrived. Kulischer got his data from a vast underground network throughout the German occupied areas.

Possibly Hannover maybe thinking along this line.


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