Western Jews deported to Transnistria?

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Hannover
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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 6 years ago (Mon Jan 06, 2003 5:32 pm)

Hebden posts:
We are rather more interested in the camps of Treblinka, Belzec, Sobibor and Majdanek at this time.
The well-known report of Mr. Richard Korherr recorded a total of 1,274,166 Jews processed through camps in the Government-General in the course of their evacuation to the Russian East. Confirmation that these camps were the so-called Reinhardt camps turned up in a recently discovered (2001) British intercept of a memo sent by Mr. Herman
Hofle from Lublin to Berlin.
See: http://www.fpp.co.uk/History/General/Ko ... 11242.html


Thanks for that. The document simply says ARRIVALS, nothing more, nothing new, nothing sinister. No one questions it, AND obviously quite a few Polish Jews are thereby accounted for.

Korherr himself shoots down the false assertions here:
http://www.fpp.co.uk/History/General/Ko ... 50777.html

I suggest this for more information:
http://codoh.com/library/document/364

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 6 years ago (Mon Jan 06, 2003 9:44 pm)

Deportation of Polish Jews to Soviet controlled areas:
Poland's Jews:
".... Jews were deported by the Germans to the area under Soviet control on the other side of the San river. ... In the summer of 1940 many of them were deported to the Soviet interior."

- Encyclopaedia Judaica Vol. II, p.184


- According to Sanning, 'The Dissolution of Soviet Jewry', a large number of Jews, at least 600,000, left the German held areas of Poland into Russian held areas of Poland.

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Postby Sailor » 1 decade 6 years ago (Mon Jan 06, 2003 10:45 pm)

Very interesting post.

Let me add this:

Mattogno/Jürgen quoted in their Treblinka book a Jewish journalist Louis Rapoport from his book La guerra di Stalin contro gli Ebrei, Rizzoli, Mailand 1991, who painted quite a pessimistic picture:

“Of the approximately one million Polish Jews which were sent to the Ural as well as to Siberia – The trip lasted four to six weeks under the most horrible conditions – one fifth to one third died, according to a news sheet of the Joint Distribution Committee from the year 1943.”

fge

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 6 years ago (Tue Jan 07, 2003 12:19 am)

Now, let's follow up my post, which was:
Poland's Jews:
".... Jews were deported by the Germans to the area under Soviet control on the other side of the San river. ... In the summer of 1940 many of them were deported to the Soviet interior."

- Encyclopaedia Judaica Vol. II, p.184


Therefore by 1941 enormous numbers of former Polish Jews were living in what became Soviet Ukraine.

David Bergelson, wrote in the Moscow Yiddish paper Ainikeit December 5, 1942, that "Thanks to the evacuation, the majority (80%) of the Jews in the Ukraine, White Russia, Lithuania and Latvia before the arrival of the Germans were rescued" ("rescued"...so called - vH).

In other words, the majority of Polish Jews that were evacuated to the Soviet interior were then relocated or put into the Red Army by the Communists. After the war many settled in the Soviet Union, many flooded into DP camps. From there vast numbers went to Palestine and many went to the US and other places where Jews are.

Now, related to Sailor's point:

During the height of the Red scare in 1954 several Jewish organizations testified before a committee of the US House of Representatives that the Jews who left the German held areas in Poland were given a choice by the Communists in 1940 of accepting Soviet citizenship or returning to German control. Most of these Jews opted to return to German controlled territory. Those that chose to return to German controlled territory were deported to Siberia by the Communists. These organizations claimed to the U.S. House Select Committee on Communist Aggression that 450,000 of them vanished without a trace.

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 6 years ago (Tue Jan 07, 2003 12:42 am)

in addition:

1940, German intelligence had reported the systematic deportation of the Polish, Ukrainian and Jewish population from the western Ukraine.

- Aschenauer, Rudolf. Krieg ohne Grenzen, Leoni, 1982, p. 115.

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Last edited by Hannover on Tue Jan 07, 2003 12:49 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 6 years ago (Tue Jan 07, 2003 12:47 am)

Yet another:

Freiling Foster, writing on the Jews in Russia, explained that:

"2,200,000 have migrated TO the Soviet Union since 1939....."

- Colliers magazine, June 9th, 1945


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Re:

Postby Hektor » 6 years 2 months ago (Sun Jul 14, 2013 3:36 pm)

Hannover wrote:- ...

- there is plenty of information to show that laborers were sent from Auschwitz to other camps..does Hebden doubt that workers were sent from Auschwitz to other sites?

- and again, show us that the 2,000,000 Polish Jews were murdered, and then try that for the mythical '6,000,000'...
plus the 6,000,000 'others' that are alleged

Hannover

Viewing the terrain of Birkenau today, it is difficult to visualize the conditions under which the prisoners were forced to work during the construction of the camp in 1941/2. A penal company had been formed for the purpose of digging an enormous ditch in Birkenau, called Konigsgraben (Kings Ditch), to collect the ground waters and to drain the water into the Vistula. The prisoners detailed for the penal company were to be killed afterwards, but before they met their death they were to be ruthlessly exploited for labor. Similar work had already begun for the building of the women's barracks; on August 16, 1942 women were transferred from Auschwitz main camp to their new residence at Auschwitz-Birkenau. The camp was enlarged in July,1943 to serve the increasing number of prisoners.

In the autumn of 1944, the 300 Schindler women, together with the children Bronislaw Horowicz (76307), Celina Carp (76318), Ewa Ratz (76404), and Halina Horowicz (76308), left KL Plaszow in sealed wagons on route to Schindler's factory at Brunnlitz. To their dismay and horror, the transport arrived at Auschwitz-Birkenau[2] where the prisoners were processed in the usual way. After delousing, cold showers and hair shaves, the Schindler group were barracked separately, where they remained uncertain of the future.[3] The fact that the women had arrived in Auschwitz was not in any way unusual. It was an administrative procedure to ensure that all prisoners within the camp system were registered, deloused, and correctly directed to the receiving camp. Auschwitz was the central hub of a vast array of satellite camps spreading over a very large area. The official transport listing of the Schindler women is shown as Konzentrationslager Gross-Rosen – Arbeitslager Brunnlitz.

Unknown to the Schindler women, Oskar had been arrested and was in the custody of the SS for conspiratorial crimes associated with Amon Goeth. The men who were now in the comparative safety of Brunnlitz were becoming anxious about their women. All the male children at Brunnlitz were to be transferred (with their fathers) to Auschwitz. Amongst them were the collaborating Dr. Gross and his eight year-old adopted son. Also transferred were Herman Rosner and his son Olek; Eugeniusz Ginter, aged 14, (born February 8, 1929) and his father; Richard Horowitz, aged 4 years, (born May 5, 1939) and his father; Wilhelm Nussbaum (68926) and his son Richard, aged 14 years (born March 22, 1930); Abraham Wisniak, born 1930 (69242); Arge Ferber (69160) and his son Roman, age 14 years, (born January 25, 1931). It seemed that without the authority of Schindler the break-up of this select company was imminent. The SS had decided that this was to be.
http://www.jewishgen.org/yizkor/schindler/sch019.html

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Re: Western Jews deported to Transnistria?

Postby Hannover » 6 years 2 months ago (Sun Jul 14, 2013 5:39 pm)

From Hektor's given link:
http://www.jewishgen.org/yizkor/schindl ... sch047.jpg
This was the site, in the suburb of Zasole, which the Nazis were to build “Konzentrationslager Auschwitz,” where at one time ten thousand human beings were passing through the gas chambers daily.
A ridiculous and simply impossible statement. There is no way that many could have been processed as such, even the gassings tales were true, which they certainly were not and cannot be proven to have happened.

The prisoners detailed for the penal company were to be killed afterwards, but before they met their death they were to be ruthlessly exploited for labor.
Zero proof exists for this statement. It's simply made up.

... to ensure that all prisoners within the camp system were registered, deloused, and correctly directed to the receiving camp. Auschwitz was the central hub of a vast array of satellite camps spreading over a very large area. The official transport listing of the Schindler women is shown as Konzentrationslager Gross-Rosen – Arbeitslager Brunnlitz.
Indeed, this is supported by the decrypts of German secret message kept at Bletchley Park.

I note that within the unsupportable, laughable tales that surround some real information at http://www.jewishgen.org/yizkor/schindler/sch019.html we see a section of an incoming transport list, which some have said were not kept by the Germans in order to deflect from the fact that the outgoing lists are missing. So once again, we can only imagine who hid or destroyed the outgoing lists. And it certainly wasn't the Germans.

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Last edited by Hannover on Sun Jul 14, 2013 5:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Western Jews deported to Transnistria?

Postby Lohengrin » 6 years 2 months ago (Sun Jul 14, 2013 5:41 pm)

Hebden: “We can wait. We are particularly looking forward to the evidence supporting the claim, which is new to us, that the Germans delivered Polish Jews into Soviet hands (which must, of course, refer to the period pre-Operation Barbarossa).”
It is in this context interesting for Hebden to know, that the supplementary part of the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact (August 1939) contains a clause (Art. 4) which says: “The Soviet Union makes no objection if ethnic Germans in the Russian territorial sphere of interest want to emigrate to Germany. Germany has a similar obligation concerning Ukrainians and White Russians who wants to emigrate.[Dokumente des Auswärtigen Amtes].
Thus, many Jews in German occupied Poland (whether or not they had relatives in Ukraine/White Russia) could freely take refuge into Soviet territory (and came under Soviet rule). It's for sure many Jews did voluntarily so, but the Germans also brought groups of Jews across the new border, or blackmailed them to do so 'voluntarily'.

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Re: Western Jews deported to Transnistria?

Postby Hannover » 6 years 2 months ago (Sun Jul 14, 2013 5:52 pm)

Lohengrin:
Thanks for the excellent information from the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact of August 1939.

but:
It's for sure many Jews did voluntarily so, but the Germans also brought groups of Jews across the new border, or blackmailed them to do so 'voluntarily'.
I'm not sure what "blackmail" means in this context. Could Lohengrin explain, with sources? BTW, I have no doubts that Germany and much, if not most of Europe wanted Jews out of their countries. History will show that Jews have been tossed out of every country that they once were graciously allowed to enter.

Thanks, Hannover
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Re: Western Jews deported to Transnistria?

Postby Hektor » 6 years 2 months ago (Sun Jul 14, 2013 6:26 pm)

The point being that Jews were transferred elsewhere from camps like Auschwitz. And the causties do actually admit it, when it suits them.

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Re: Western Jews deported to Transnistria?

Postby Lohengrin » 6 years 2 months ago (Sun Jul 14, 2013 8:27 pm)

Hannover: "I'm not sure what "blackmail" means in this context. Could Lohengrin explain, with sources? BTW, I have no doubts that Germany and much, if not most of Europe wanted Jews out of their countries. History will show that Jews have been tossed out of every country that they once were graciously allowed to enter."
Indeed. "Blackmail" maybe isn't the best word for it. What I mean, is the fear many of of the Jews felt for the Germans. That's not so much a matter of 'sources', but rather of psychology. :|

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Re: Western Jews deported to Transnistria?

Postby Lohengrin » 6 years 2 months ago (Mon Jul 15, 2013 3:46 pm)

More evidence for Hebden, that the Germans - as a consequence of the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact - delivered huge numbers of Polish Jews into Soviet hands before Operation Barbarossa, can be found in “Die Truppe des Weltanschauungskrieges” by H. Krauschnick and H.-H. Wilhelm (1981, Stuttgart, Deutsche Verlags-Anstalt) and “Let History Judge. The origin and consequences of Stalinism”, by R. Medvedev (1976, London, Spokesman Books).
Krauschnick and Wilhelm spoke of a German order to drive as much as possible Jews over the river San, “where they would not admitted and were shot in great numbers’ by the Soviets”. The Soviet vice-secretary of Interior, Vladimir Potemkin, told another story, namely that the SS shot the refugees.
This last version is obviously untrue, because why should the Germans shot these people (which were Jewish and not-Jewish) during some months at the border, while the Russians closed that border as late as January 1940?
Nevertheless, after closure, another 300.000(!) Polish Jews managed to cross the border to Soviet territory, fleeing to East to Galicia and White-Russia.

All together, there is plenty of evidence that hundreds of thousands Polish Jews voluntarily crossed the Polish-Soviet border before ‘Barbarossa’ and the Germans also forced huge numbers to do so.

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Re: Western Jews deported to Transnistria?

Postby Balsamo » 6 years 2 months ago (Mon Jul 15, 2013 5:05 pm)

A couple of two cents in regard to what i have read so far...

Hebben quoted
A
ccording to a document from 1942, 26,200 French, Belgian, and Dutch Jews were shipped to Transnistria up to some time in the summer (?) of 1942. Most Belgian Jews deported in 1942, allegedly to Auschwitz, apparently reached Transnistria. Reports from 1943, indicate the arrival of Jews from Theresienstadt to Transnistria. These people had been sent to the "model ghetto" from Germany, Austria, Slovakia, and perhaps Bohemia and Moravia (I do not remember the details, although I have the sources). The reports also indicate the sending of Bulgarian Jews to Transnistria (not all of them went to Treblinka) in 1943, as well as the deportation and execution of Polish Jews by the Germans in Transnistria.

I don’t know who wrote that, but one can point out an error in the first line. Except maybe for the Dutch, one should read Jews from Belgium and France…Most of the Belgian Jews were left unarmed, the ones who were indeed sent to their fate were the ones who chose to flee to France…They have to be counted among the Jews from France…only 3500 Jews had the Belgian nationality in 1939.
I cannot see how one can link western transport to transport from Theresienstadt (except if one can establish a transport from Belgium, France to Theresienstadt)…
This quote is a bit messy. Alexander Mayer as - i have just read his letter- seems to be a bit confused with the nationalities and minorities in Eastern or Western Europe.

Hannover said
I'm afraid you have it backwards, it is incumbent upon those who allege mass murder to prove their case..


So you are still on a judicial logic, acting like a defense lawyer… Even though, Hebben (or Mayer) raises historical issues and not judicial ones.
Sailor, rightly, said
For example it seems to be verified that about 350,000 Jews were deported from the Warsaw Ghetto and Warsaw district to Treblinka (Stroop Report, “Judenrat” (Jewish Councill) of the Ghetto, railroad schedules). The official estimate is actually higher, at least 700,000 and probably 870,000 deportees to Treblinka.
If these people were not exterminated in Treblinka, and there does not seem to be any evidence of massgraves (unless the Polish did a sloppy job in 1945 trying to find the graves), then where are they?

Obviously, that would be an historical approach to an essential question, even if a revisionist one.
And also
Werner made a study of varying population densities in the areas and years of interest within the Soviet Union and he discovered, if I remember correctly, that a population increase occurred in the area southwest of Minsk of about 400,000 people for the years 1941-1943.

And if Werner could provide proofs that those 400.000 were coming from the west (that is the west from Minsk), it would be a nice revisionist shot.
Now who in his right mind now would risk his professional or academic career, monetary penalties or even imprisonment and go and look what happened to the deported Jews?

This is indeed a problem…but I would think that there are enough already burnt revisionists that could take the challenge, or even new ones that would accept to be burn for at least a good reason.
To the question
What would constitute such an offence? The simple possession of revisionist literature or something more active?

Actually it is the public diffusion of revisionist propaganda that is forbidden and punished by law. A recent case illustrates the limits of the concept: There was this German guy who was painting portraits of Hitler (not forbidden) but then he chose to propose its progress on facebook which prompted a silly but swift reaction by the German police. He was not arrested, but they took his painting!

About Treblinka and co, Hannover said
Thanks for that. The document simply says ARRIVALS, nothing more, nothing new, nothing sinister. No one questions it, AND obviously quite a few Polish Jews are thereby accounted for.


You would be right, if you could provide anything related to any DEPARTURES…When documents show that 2000 people are sent to Treblinka and that the train then leaves EMPTY, it raises legitimate concerns about the Transit nature of this specific station.

Anyway, good topic

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Re: Western Jews deported to Transnistria?

Postby Hannover » 6 years 2 months ago (Mon Jul 15, 2013 7:16 pm)

Balsamo said:
I don’t know who wrote that, but one can point out an error in the first line. Except maybe for the Dutch, one should read Jews from Belgium and France…Most of the Belgian Jews were left unarmed, the ones who were indeed sent to their fate were the ones who chose to flee to France…They have to be counted among the Jews from France…only 3500 Jews had the Belgian nationality in 1939.
I cannot see how one can link western transport to transport from Theresienstadt (except if one can establish a transport from Belgium, France to Theresienstadt)…
What 'fate' do you allege of the Belgian Jews so mentioned?
What is your source for your claim "only 3500 Jews had the Belgian nationality in 1939"?

Balsamo again:
So you are still on a judicial logic, acting like a defense lawyer… Even though, Hebben (or Mayer) raises historical issues and not judicial ones.
Oh please, the entire 'holocaust' story line centers on judicial matters. You cannot claim that 6M Jews were murdered without providing legal proof. And since you believe that history should not be based upon proving what 'historians' tell us, then I'm afraid you are simply reinforcing the case for Revisionism, where providing proof is all that matters. You remind me of the judge in the Zundel case where it was said that 'the truth doesn't matter'. Incredible, Balsamo.
You clearly would make for a sorry historian, and sorry is exactly what we have in standard 'holocaust scholars'.

and:
And if Werner could provide proofs that those 400.000 were coming from the west (that is the west from Minsk), it would be a nice revisionist shot.
Are you saying that there are no sources cited in his study?

and:
This is indeed a problem…but I would think that there are enough already burnt revisionists that could take the challenge, or even new ones that would accept to be burn for at least a good reason.
What in the world are talking about? Do you even know? As far as I can tell, prisons are not very pleasant, that is about all one can say to your nonsensical statement.

and:
You would be right, if you could provide anything related to any DEPARTURES…When documents show that 2000 people are sent to Treblinka and that the train then leaves EMPTY, it raises legitimate concerns about the Transit nature of this specific station.
Of course, conveniently destroying or hiding the outbound records makes specifics about departures a bit difficult, which was certainly the intent of making the records disappear.
As I posted and you ignored, there are at least remnants of some outbound records, so don't try to claim they never existed. Logic, a bad word to you, indicates there were loads of outbound records.
What documents do you have showing all trains leaving Treblinka were empty? Do tell.
And since it is known from the British decrypts that the German transported masses of Jews out of Auschwitz (the alleged no. 1 'death camp'), etc., your unproven case for Treblinka that Jews went in and didn't come out just doesn't hold up. And yes, there are those who state they were transported out of Treblinka, as shown at this forum.

I also notice that you simply ignore the numerous pieces of information in this thread which support the Revisionist position. So very typical.

I also note that you cannot show us a single mass grave as is alleged.
So when people try the tired canard, 'Where did they go?' The answer to that has already been provided by the story line itself; supposedly they went into massive graves / pits. But there's a big problem, verifiable excavations of Jews cannot be shown, not a single one. Can you show us, Balsamo?

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